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    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    July 10, 2006
    Countdown with Keith Olbermann - July 10, 2006

    "COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN" (8:00 P.M.-9:00 P.M. ET)

    Host: Keith Olbermann

    Topics/Guests:

    • REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R-MICH.) SAYS THE WHITE HOUSE MAY HAVE BROKEN THE LAW BY KEEPING INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES A SECRET: John Dean, former White House council
    • ARE PRES. BUSH'S DAYS OF COWBOY DIPLOMACY OVER?: Mike Allen, TIME Magazine

    "Dean Angst"

    Sometimes you just have to marvel at the chutzpah of comedian Keith Olbermann. He bellows misinformation and lies and couldn't care less about accuracy or ethics. On tonight's Hour of Spin he was off and running as soon as his opening spiel regarding Peter Hoekstra's complaints about Congressional oversight:

    The President ripped by the conservative running the House Select Committe on Intelligence for holding back details of NSA spying.

    Moments later:

    [Hoekstra] has now told President Bush that he may have broken the law by keeping parts of the NSA domestic spying program secret even from the lawmakers responsible for overseeing them.

    Now it's possible Krazy Keith is just spouting without knowing what he is spouting about. But given his track record, it appears more likely that he is deliberately falsifying, just for the pleasure of invoking his talking point that the NSA program is "domestic spying".

    Fact: Rep Hoekstra's objections were not about the NSA surveillance program. The NSA was nowhere mentioned in his letter to the President. He has never said it was an NSA program he was referring to. In fact, the New York Times, which broke this story, plainly stated:

    Officials have said he was not referring to the National Security Agency's wiretapping operation or to the Treasury Department's bank monitoring program, both of which he was informed about.

    Uh-huh. So where did Keith come up with the notion that it's all about the NSA surveillance program? He made it up! But it gets better, as Olby rails on about Hoekstra, who revealed the finding of 500 canisters of degraded WMDs in Iraq:

    Will those who found the Michigan Republican credible last month find him just as credible now?

    KO has some nerve. We could just as easily ask, will Keith Olbermann, who ridiculed Hoekstra last month and compared him to Joe McCarthy, ridicule him now? There's a question about as challenging as asking what time does the 6 o'clock news begin.

    What could be more appropriate than lies and hypocricy to lead into the star interviewee of the evening, the disbarred lawyer himself, John Dean. Keith was quick to plug Dean's "remarkable" book, and the felon was equipped with all the usual talking points. Hoekstra, because he's a Republican, acted because he was being "pressured". Cheney is the evil genius behind it all. Barry Goldwater was "very distressed" with conservatives because the movement is farther right than ever. (Barry Goldwater, who wanted to use nukes in VietNam, and opposed the civil rights laws, was to the left of George W Bush?!?) "Studies" found that "authoritarianism" is overwhelmingly conservative (only 1% liberal). Olby chimed in:

    And the idea of leaders and followers, um, going down this path and perhaps taking a country with them requires, this whole edifice requires an enemy: Communism, Al Qaeda, Democrats, me, whoever, for the two minutes hate.

    Yep, Al Qaeda is a fiction concocted by Karl Rove. Communism was never an enemy. The ex-con insisted that conservatives encourage terrorism:

    When people are frightened, they tend to go to these authority figures. They tend to become more conservative. So it's paid off for them politically to do this.

    The infamous, deplorable Keith Olbermann, with a straight face, hilariously lambasted the "amorality" of conservatives, and felon Dean was happy to name names:

    • Dick Cheney
    • Bill Frist
    • George W Bush

    Then the ex-con cues us in on some more of his top-notch exclusive research: 23% of the American people are right-wing authoritarian followers, and the number is growing. KO was quick to invoke the Nixon era and the disbarred lawyer agreed. At the end of the interview Keith announced that tomorrow he would have Bill Bennett on to argue the other side of the story. What am I saying? The lights on the Countdown ceiling would crash to the floor if anything like that ever happened.

    Finally a commercial break, and then #4 and a surprise. Krazy Keith bows out, and turns the rest of the show over to Alison Stewart. All Right! We can unpause the tivo and catch up on the O'Reilly Factor. Stewart covers:

    #4: The end of cowboy diplomacy.
    #3: Cruise news.
    #2: World Cup soccer finale, Michael Jackson, and Ann Coulter. (The syndicator's investigation of plagiarism charges clears Annie, in a statement Stewart claimed was issued "late Tuesday".)

    KO was back, through the magic of videotape, for #1: Star Jones and Dan Rather. This was an inane piece that Olby ran once before. So we got Krazy Keith, suddenly on tape, showing a taped rerun of a story that was on tape to start with. And they say Dan Abrams doesn't know what he's doing.


    Posted by johnny dollar | Permalink | Comments (252) | | View blog reactions
    user-pic

    252 Comments

    Johnny, what an easy question. There are only two possible answers, Nixon or McCarthy, so you've got a 50/50 shot right of the back. But you made it a trick question, since Dean's doing the analysis, and he's not usually KO's go-to-guy on Joe McCarthy.

    Hey, the title says July 20. Is this the time warp Olby tonight?

    A disbarred lawyer is his expert on law
    So absurd it makes one guffaw
    Keith's guest is a crook
    Convicted felon hawks book
    It's ludicrous and slackens one's jaw

    Jim, watching an hour of Olby feels as if it drags on for 10 days.

    Funny how Olby called Dean a "historian," but failed to mention "convicted felon." However did that happen?

    He can't even do his whole show himself anymore? Too busy blowing John Dean during the breaks?

    Jim, watching an hour of Olby feels as if it drags on for 10 days.

    That`s because you`re a moron.

    Keith did us a favor tonight and bugged out early. Responsible, that guy. Maybe he baled to watch baseball.

    And now he's back. A co-host for CD? The phaseout begins?

    Anyone know what's going on?

    Also, for some reason CD neglected to report that Coulter has also been cleared of the "plagiarism charges" by her publisher Crown Publishing, part of Random House.

    Check here for the explanation:

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200607070011

    Of course I bugged out early. I'm a sucker for a man in a baseball uniform.

    So sorry, but the cohost actually did mention coulter, much to my shock. Wonder if Keith would have? In any case, must give credit even if it is what any real journalist would have done.

    After his performance tonight, I believe I'll fire Joe Scarborough and offer the 9 pm slot to John Dean. Just think about it. Matthews, Olbermann, and Dean. Now that's fair and balanced!

    Anyone know why Alison Stewart was co-hosting 'Meltdown'? Also, I noticed that Ms. Stewart was no longer wearing her engagement ring. Is the engagement off to MessNBC VP Bill Wolff????

    Laural,

    My point was that, yes it was mentioned, by they left out that Ann was cleared not only by her column's syndicator, United Press Syndicate, but also the publisher of her book, Crown Publishing.

    The latter was conveniently left out of the report. And It was even on Media Matters Friday (3 days ago). Can't say no one at CD saw that post. They just skipped it.

    Me thinks Keith has delusions of grandeur when he says he's an enemy of the right. Hell, most folks on the left don't know who you are, Keith. But kudos anyway on presenting concrete and specific examples of how the U.S. is becoming fascist. I'm sure both Dean and Olby were followed home tonight on the ride home by homeland security becaause they're such thorns in the Bush administration's side.

    We hereby agree that most of histories authoritarian governments have been on the right.

    And Olbermann - or his producers - conveniently left out the fact that Hoekstra stated yesterday on the Sunday shows that all of his questions and concerns about classified programs had been answered by the White House.

    SMG

    Scott
    Thanks for clarifying, my oversight. Guess my head was still swimming from the fact that there was any sort of followup story.

    Al-Qaeda has taken over Somalia, they are on the comeback in Afghanistan and have the US on the ropes in Iraq. The Left is on the verge of power here in America as it is in Europe and Latin America. North Korea has Japan shook! We are winning!

    Al-Qaeda has taken over Somalia, they are on the comeback in Afghanistan and have the US on the ropes in Iraq. The Left is on the verge of power here in America as it is in Europe and Latin America. North Korea has Japan shook! We are winning!

    Jill Perry, cheerleader for all things anti-American, totalitarian and altogether nutty, returns to grace us with her wisdom!

    Al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda, Rah, Rah, Rah!

    Bush sucks. Bush lied so people died! Olby's influence is on the rise and nothing you can do can stop it!

    I remember John Deans wife 'Mo' Dean was a hottie back in the 70's. Shockingly, however, Keith remembers John Dean as being the hottie.

    Admit it lefties, your ideological ancestors made sure the Soviet Union stuck around for as long as it did and many contemporaries cheer on that hideous Fidel Castro. Speaking of which, is Janet Reno planning to visit Elian Gonzales and his father ( Fidel ) anytime soon. That would be a truly touching reunion. I wonder if the gestapo agents who seized Elian at gunpoint will go visit him as well. Hey, I'm sure they were only following orders.

    Just to recap, the left thought that a world wide war against naziism and fascism was a good idea, as did the right. The right also thought a world wide crusade against communism was in the world's interests. The left did not. About a 100 million plus dead at the hands of communism leaves the right vindicated, don't you think?

    So who can we thank for the N. Korea mess? Try old Harry Truman, who dropped a couple of A bombs on the Japanese but recalled Gen. MacArthur when he suggested that we not settle for only the south of Korea, but take the North and China as well. Or at least render China impotent. I'd say MacArthur is vindicated as well.

    Every now and then even KO surprisees me. The exchange with KO and John Dean about the emerging fascist state in America seemed a new low in BizarroWorld.

    "And the idea of leaders and followers, um, going down this path and perhaps taking a country with them requires, this whole edifice requires an enemy: Communism, Al Qaeda, Democrats, me, whoever, for the two minutes hate."

    I like how Keith equates himself with (a) one of the most influential political ideologies of the past 200 years; (b) the world's leading terrorist network; (c) the oldest, largest political party in the United States.

    More distressing, does KO believe that Communism and al Qaeda are strawmen created by ubersecretultraconservatives? Does KO thing that conservatives should do something other than oppose a political party which embrased a poltical ideology to which they are diametrically opposed?

    Hey Jill, nothing says Keith is on the rise like and audience of 200,000. And where oh where is the evidence that Bush lied. Did Clinton and Kerry and Al Gore lie when they said the same things about WMD? Clinton didn't invade Iraq but he sure bombed the hell out of it. What say you about bombing a sovereign nation who did nothing to us and who had nothing to do with the 1993 WTC bombing?

    Robert,
    It's obvious that Olbermann needs help. He's a paranoid delusionalist. He's also an intellectual coward. Why doesn't he debate anyone of the opposite opinion?

    I'm not only an intellectual coward. I'm also a physical coward as well.

    The other thing that says I'm on the rise is having John Dean sit only inches away from me!

    At least Castro provides free healthcare and education to his people. The evil heartless Bush has raised the prices of gasoline so Halliburton can make millions!

    pat, Keith gets 300,000 on a BAD night. He normally gets about 400,000 total viewers. Of course that's just a "fact" based on "reality" and everyone knows that reality has a liberal bias

    What's it like to be a walking cliche?
    How many votes for jill actually being a conservative plant trying to make libs look like fools?

    Most amazing comment from Dean explaining why he believes that President Bush is fear mongering the war on terror: "Well, we got used to the cold war, we'll get used to the war on terror." Funny but I don't remember losig 3000+ people on one day during the cold war, bur of course that maybe because I am a conservative, authoritarian follower soon to be nazi according to good liberals everywhere.

    Laural,
    Am I wrong in my analysis. The world is going our way. The Leftists-Islamic-Chinese alliance will destroy the evil capitalist system and rule the world!

    Most amazing comment from Dean explaining why he believes that President Bush is fear mongering the war on terror: "Well, we got used to the cold war, we'll get used to the war on terror." Funny but I don't remember losig 3000+ people on one day during the cold war, bur of course that maybe because I am a conservative, authoritarian follower soon to be nazi according to good liberals everywhere.

    The Nazi's were Leftists. It was called the National Socialist Workers Party.

    Yep, she's a ringer. Votes over.

    Thanks for making my point about the left, Jill. Who's worse in your opinion, Jill? A communist dictator who has killed thousands of his own people not to mention thousands of others wherever he has sent his goons ( Angola, Mozambique, all of Latin America ) a man who hasn't held an election since he took power in 1959, a man who forces atheism down people's throats at the point of a gun, or George W. Bush, who leaves office in 2008? Are the millions of Cuban Americans in South Florida and in other parts of America and the Cubans who daily try to leave that paradise of free medecine and education not proof enough for you? Ah the Cubans! The only hispanics liberals enjoy mocking and belittling. So I guess if W. ruled for 47 straight years, you'd be okay if I cheered him on because I like the fact he DOESN'T provide free health care and education. Do you have a Che Guevara t-shirt by any chance? I have one of Idi Amin myself.

    If Keith gets 300,000 on a bad night, he been having an awful lot of bad nights lately.

    Viva Communist dictators!

    I get about a million and a half viewers on my show on a bad night.... with a guest host. Who's that guy hot on my tail? Why, it's Keith Olbermann!

    I can't believe all the people who bought into the fear mongering done by FDR during WWII concerning us. I mean, the Americans were pretty much living in a fascist state and you didn't even know it!

    "Do you have a Che Guevara t-shirt by any chance?"
    Yes and a picture of Mao and the great freedom fighter Zarqawi!

    To Laural,
    I'm an honest Lefty and admitt my beliefs! You pertend to be a Moderate when in reality you're happy the world is going our way!

    I'm not even sure that you're worth the time but I'll ask again. Who's worse, Bush or Castro?

    I know you're trying to be coy by sarcastically saying you'r a big fan of Mao and the terrorist but when you posted that at least Fidel has free medecine and education, it was a pretty damning statement on your part. Any retraction coming forth or some clarification concerning a man who almost sent some nukes our way back in the early sixties courtesy from the boys back in Moscow.

    I couldn't stand Bill Clinton but not in a million years would I say he's worse than a dictator of any ideology. The worst U.S. president, yes.

    Haven't 'pertended' to be anything cept maybe someone who can spell. Projection, perhaps?

    "Who's worse, Bush or Castro?"

    Bush, he's raised gas prices so Halliburton and Enron can make billions!

    "I know you're trying to be coy by sarcastically saying you'r a big fan of Mao and the terrorist"

    No I'm serious, Mao and Zarqawi are great men who stood up the evil Capitalists! All Leftists feel that way!

    The Two Minute Hate more Orwell, right outta 1984!

    Next up, Keith will martyr himself as the new style Emmanuel Goldstein the target of hatred for all to hate!

    There you are, Jill.

    Well done, senorita. Now come to me for your reward.

    Wasn't George Orwell an English author who was also a communist in his youth who then saw the light? He wrote " Animal Farm " to show marxism at work among the animals, with the famous line " All animals are created equal. But some are more equal than others." Something tells me if Orwell was alive today, he'd be posting some delicious observations about Olby. He might have a problem with Keith saying communism was needed by conservatives to be their enemy.

    With a convicted felon and disbarred "lawyer" serving has his show's legal analyst, who would Odorman have as his medical analyst?

    We might have been poor peasant farmers but we got what was coming to us, fair and square. By the way, Jill Perry is the only person on this board who makes any sense.

    I can answer that one Tom. It would be me.

    Refering to Clinton, someone said, "The worst U.S. president, yes."
    ----------------------------------------------
    Yeah, damn that eight years of peace, prosperity, a balanced budget, government surplus.

    We need more war-mongerers like Bush who lie, invade the wrong country, lie some more, ignore real threats like North Korea, lie again, screw up crisis situations like Katrina, lie yet again... we need more of that!

    Face it guys... life long conservatives like Dean have turned their back on Bush... recent allies like Hoekstra are turning their backs on Bush... this president has no friends left... he's leaving his mess in Iraq for future presidents and generations to try and clean up - if it's even possible.

    This president is a dismal failure in every sense of word. People who support him look just as bad as his track record does. And you don't realize it, you're all the worse off for it.

    This is yet another useless discussion - multiple posts from the same person pretending to be different individuals. Can you say "flame baiting"?

    -OM

    "This president is a dismal failure in every sense of word."

    Look what a success Cuba and Iran are! They are progressive regimes that fight Imperialism!
    At least Clinton made sure gas prices were low! When Clinton lied no one died!

    >Yeah, damn that eight years of peace, prosperity, a balanced budget, government surplus.

    Yeah -- Peace! More like Clinton ignored the coming war. He ignored the embassy bombings, the USS Cole bombings, set his own troops up in Somalia then turned tail and ran, and created the barrier that destroyed intelligence capability. It is easy to have peace if you ignore threats. The only problem is the threats don't go away. I think Osama said it best James:

    “But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the ‘heart’ of every Muslim and a remedy to the ‘chests’ of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.”

    Bin Laden's 1996 Fatwa

    Jmaes did you mourn the death of our ally the brave freedom fighter Zarqawi? I cried when he was executed! I'm sure Olby was upset as was the rest of us!

    Yeah, I sure miss the Cole bombing, the invasion of Haiti to re-instate a communist ex-priest who advocated necklacing political opponensts, the bombing of our embassies in Africa, the bombing of Iraq, the bombing of Belgrade against a country who was no threat to us, the Oklahoma City Bombing ( and then blaming talk radio for it ), the murder of 100 Branch Davidians, the fuck up in Somalia, the putting of troops in Bosnia, the seizure of Elian Gonzales and forcibly returning him to Castro in Cuba, the first World Trade Center Bombing, the passing up of Bin Laden on at least two occasions, taking money from Chinese communists to get re-elected in 1996, the 43% and 49% that Clinton/Gore got in '92 and '96, the way that Madeline Halfwit talked so darn tough on those North Koreans, hosting Yasser Arafat at the White House and treating him like the respected leader he was, letting our military secrets find their ways into the hands of the Chi Coms, getting bj's under the desk in the oval office, lying under oath, obstructing justice, loosing the house and senate in 1994, getting impeached, having good friends like the McDougals and Web Hubbel take the fall for you, looking the other way while Enron and all make millions off other people's backs, inheriting a good and improving economy from the 1st George Bush and claiming credit, not doing a damn thing when Saddam Hussein tries to assasinate a former president, watching as militant Islam continued to rise, did nothing as a million Rwandans were butchered by machetes.

    Yeah, those were some good times.

    It's like what Olbermann said, The Islamic threat is made up! That's why Clinton didn't do anything. It's a phoney threat Bin Laden is a harmless madman!

    KfK said, " Clinton ignored the coming war."
    -----------------------------------

    Well, gosh... I don't think it was Clinton who ignored a Presidential Daily Briefing which explicity pointed out Al-Qaeda's desire to stage and attack within the US borders. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was Bushie. Yeah... it was Bushie. A daily briefing which he never read. Could have prevented the deaths of 3,000 innocent people. But, he had better things to do.

    Oh, by the way... an agency set up to specifically to go after Bin Laden under Clinton was just disbanded by Bushie. But, what does Bushie need that office for. He already got his man, Hussein. In fact, Bushie owes Bin Laden a great deal of thanks for attacking us, giving Bushie the clout he needed to launch an unprovoked war.

    But, go ahead and keep blaming Clinton for 9/11. Just remember, it was your boy Bushie who INGORED HIS DAILY BRIEFING THAT WARNED OF AN AL-QAEDA ATTACK.

    Way to go all you Bushies.

    I thought this site was supposed to serve as a media watch dog, not as an anti-communist site. I guess if right wingers aren't bitching about one thing, they're bitching about another

    James,
    Bin Laden is a freedom fighter. How can you not credit him with starting a war that has the US at the point ofd collapse. Do you see the Left's dream is coming true!

    James,
    Bin Laden is a freedom fighter. How can you not credit him with starting a war that has the US at the point of collapse. Do you see the Left's dream is coming true!

    Jill... if anyone should be thanking Bin Laden, it's Bushie.

    Like I said, 9/11 gave Bushie the excuse he needed to go after Saddam.

    Keith Olbermann speaks the truth and exposes Bush's crime against America like high gas prices!

    When we heard that Clinton was going to prosecute us in American courts, we were scared senseless!

    And the way that Bill Clinton withdrew from Somalia only scared us more.

    And when Clinton refused to take me when the Sudan offered me to him, I knew then and there my days were numbered.

    Emperor Palapatine,

    I'm confused. I know you were alive at the end of Star Wars III (or is that VI) but Luke killed you in Star Wars VI (or is that III). Either way, enough about Olbermann. Can you hook me up with Princess Amidala?

    James,
    Wrong Bin Laden and his progressive forces planned this war and caught the US by suprise!
    Then us on the Left began to demoralize this country.
    James, victory is at hand why be mad? The Left will soon be in power in America and we can then re-educated the country and finish off the evil Corporate system!
    ZThen we'll through the ZRightwingers in jail for the public good. I can't wait!

    James,
    Wrong Bin Laden and his progressive forces planned this war and caught the US by suprise!
    Then us on the Left began to demoralize this country.
    James, victory is at hand why be mad? The Left will soon be in power in America and we can then re-educated the country and finish off the evil Corporate system!
    ZThen we'll through the ZRightwingers in jail for the public good. I can't wait!

    Adam, the discussion of communism is appropriate due to Olbermann saying that it was pretty much a red herring used by conservatives to scare people. He said it tonight on his rarely watched, poorly rated but critically acclaimed show tonight. Or did you miss it? If you did, it was tremendous. He had on John Dean and everything.

    Robert
    Actually Vader betrayed me! What do you think of Jill Perry! Lol! She says what Olby and the Left really thinks! She has cojones!

    Yeah Pat Fegan. I much prefer...

    Not having a the man the majority of Americans voted for take office in 2000, A predisposition to go after Saddam, lying about WMD, ignoring warnings about 9/11, exploiting 9/11 and the deaths of 3,000 innocents to go after Iraq, allowing North Korea to turn into a real menace, fucking up Katrina relief, attempting to give our ports to Dubai, outing an undercover FBI agent, handing over billions of dollars to Halliburton for reconstruction in Iraq without an open bidding process, spying on innocent American phone calls, spying on American phone calls again, the needless deaths of thousands of American troops..

    and just think... we get a few more years of Fucknuts and Co. in this administration.

    yeah.

    Hey Lefties, do give Jill Perry credit for how you guys really think?

    James,
    "allowing North Korea to turn into a real menace,"

    That was Clinton for giving them aid for 6 years.
    What do you think they did with that money?
    What about Clinton giving the Chinese military technology?

    emperor palpatine, is that you solution for everything, Blaming Clinton? Is this administration not to be held accountable for anything?

    *your

    *your

    ""Who's worse, Bush or Castro?"

    Bush, he's raised gas prices so Halliburton and Enron can make billions!"

    Assuming your's isn't a bogus post, you seriously need help. Although I think electroshock therapy has faded in psychiatric circles as a treatment, I would suggest an exception be made in your case. Though, there might not be enough electricity to shock YOU back into reality.

    On another subject, countering Geef's delusions about the modern conservative movement and its authoritarian underpinnings is an effort that requires more time than should be allocated to thinking about his rather poorly formed, delusional theories. Though Geef has already addressed the possibility that someone might say that he is wrong by claiming that modern conservatives unthinkingly obey the authoritarian administration.

    Personally, I prefer the non-authoritarian, liberal party that creates a series of evil corporations (Halliburton, Enron, WorldCom, BLAH BLAH BLAH), activities (eg, smoking, driving SUVs), parties, freedoms (to invest in the retirement account of my choice or to send poor kids to private schools). Democrats using these as strawmen to claim they are protecting the poor and the middle class from the evil plutocrats (another strawman) are certainly more valid than suggesting that a bunch of stooges who can't fly a plane into a building to kill 3,000+ might warrant gathering more competent intelligence of activities those stooges might plan to kill people.

    Olbermann bailed after the first segment in order to use someone else to report the Coulter news.

    Olby is a wimp.

    A coward.

    if you guys hate Olbmerann so much, why not change the channel?

    if you guys hate Olbmerann so much, why not change the channel?

    I know James. I know. It sucks having Bush win 30 states and win the electoral votes ( Damn that Constitution!), winning outright in 2004 by about 4 million votes just to prove it wasn't a fluke, maintaining a Republican majority, saying nothing different from Clinton, Gore, or Kerry regarding Saddam Hussein and WMD, getting rid of Saddam and the Taliban, Having Libya read the signs and dismantling their chemical weapons plan, not being attacked since 9-11, actually following through on threats of military action, still being beloved by our military rank and file even though, according to folks like you, they should loathe him, exposing the U.N. for being the gutless, socialist wonders that they are, doing the U.N.'s work for them, unemployment still around 4%, making fools of the Democrats and the media on a daily basis, trying to clean up the North Korea mess he inherited from the Clinton administration, monitoring terrrorist phone calls, showing common sense by giving contracts to Halliburton, the most able firm in the world.

    Indeed, it sucks to be a democrat and a liberal in general today.

    " liberal party that creates a series of evil corporations (Halliburton, Enron, WorldCom,"
    --------------------------------

    This is a truly uneducated statement.

    - Halliburton was run by our current VP.
    - Halliburton was given huge contracts to rebuild Iraq without ever having bids put out publicly. They're not under investigation for billions of dollars taht are unaccounted for.
    - Enron's Ken Lay was a personal friend of the President.
    - Republicans continually give huge tax breaks to large companies.
    - Republicans continually give tax breaks to the most wealthy in this country.

    Big Oil and Big Business finance the republican party. Period.

    People say that the Iraq War is bad PR for bush, but really its the best thing that's ever happened to him. can you imagine how low his approval rating would be if people were more focused on the pitiful job he's done on domestic issues?

    "winning outright in 2004 by about 4 million votes just to prove it wasn't a fluke, maintaining a Republican majority"
    ------------------------------------------------

    - Bushie was re-elected by the SMALLEST MARGIN IN US HISTORY.
    - Bushie was re-elected by brainwashing just enough people into believing they would be attacked and killed if they didn't vote for him.

    --------------------------------------------
    "still being beloved by our military rank and file"

    -----------------------------------------

    This is total crap. Look at the recent polls of military families who think we should be out of Iraq by the end of the year.

    -------------------------------------------
    "making fools of the Democrats and the media on a daily basis"

    ---------------------------------------------

    Yeah, because it's democrats who are resigning and going to jail like Cunningham and Delay. Abramoff will bring a lot more down than just these two.
    ----------------------------------------------
    "trying to clean up the North Korea mess he inherited from the Clinton administration
    -----------------------------------------

    Right, because Bushie has been paying such close attention to N. Korea the last five years.

    If the printer breaks six years ago under the old boss... but you spend five years looking at the fax machine.. guess what - you were paying attention to the wrong problem.

    by the way... I don't remember N. Korea test firing anything under Clintons watch. Do you?

    ----------------------------------------------

    " showing common sense by giving contracts to Halliburton"
    ----------------------------------------------

    By common sense, you mean obvious bias to pay back your Veep's old boys and the guys who finance your administration.

    ------------------------------------------------

    "Indeed, it sucks to be a democrat and a liberal in general today."
    ---------------------------------------------------

    See you in November.

    James, first of all Bush "won" the election by 3 million, not 4 million. Second of all, odds are that he stole that election just like he stole the 2000 election. And if you don't believe its possible to steal a presidential election, just look at the 2004 Ukranian election, or the fiasco going on in Mexico right now. They found votes in trash cans for god's sake!

    I know James, it sucks to be a liberal today. I believe you repeated some of what you said in an earlier post. You're right. Katrina is all Bush's fault, with no blame going to the Governor or the mayor, both of whom are democrats. And no blame should go to the corrupt local government who spent the money ear marked for the levies on God knows what. I think Bush blew up those damn levies!

    I wish Sadaam and the Taliban were still around. They seemed like good folks.

    Isn't it weird how the military rank and file absolutely love George W. Bush and republicans in general. Shouldn't they loathe them. Instead, they loathe the anti-military bastards like they should.

    Halliburton is the most capable American company for the rebuilding effort.

    Man, this 4% unemployment under Bush is damn near intolerable.

    You do realize that Bush won the majority of votes in '04 though, right? I seem to recall Kerry bitching about winning in Ohio, even though he lost by 2 hundred thousand votes. Let's say Kerry won Ohio. He would have won the presidency but lost the popular vote by nearly 4 million votes. What would you have said about the electoral college then?

    I hope W. continues the terrorist surveillance that seems to be working quite well..... that is when the New York Times and other leftist rags aren't giving the bad guys the heads up.

    Was Bill Clinton lying when he said Sadaam had WMD's or do you give him a pass on that one. And Kerry too. And Gore. And just about every other Democrat leader.

    pat keeps talking about "4% unemployment". First of all, its not 4%, its 5%. Secondly, of those people that have jobs, how many of them are under-employed? Thirdly, you'll never have that great of an economy with gas prices that high.

    Did Bill Clinton have a mandate in 1992 when 57% of the American people voted against him and 51% voted against him in '96?

    I'm amazed to learn that North Korea has only become a power during the Bush administration. That they only started to work on their missles since Bush took over. That they were kept in their place when they were facing Madeline Notsobrightbutdeadsexy. I guess the fact that they only recently fired a rocket proves that point so well.

    I'm looking forward to November as well. Once and for all, these leftist pollsters will be completely relegated to irrelevant status. James, you do realize that Bush would win the presidency again if he was able to run again. And get used to Tom Delay in Congress again, buddy.

    Whether it's 4 or 5 %, it's still damn low. Contrast that with our " allies" in Europe, where it's in the double digits.

    Pat says:
    "these leftist pollsters"
    "you do realize that Bush would win the presidency again if he was able to run again"

    So if a poll comes out with numbers you don't like, the assumption is that liberals run the poll?

    Also, I don't think anyone with a 36% approval rating could get re-elected.

    "Katrina is all Bush's fault, with no blame going to the Governor or the mayor, both of whom are democrats. And no blame should go to the corrupt local government who spent the money ear marked for the levies on God knows what."

    - The number one priority of the government is to protect it's people. There's plenty of blame to go around... but when you're on vacaction, ignore a tele-conference where someone TELLS YOU THE DAMS WILL LIKELY BREAK, and you do nothing - you're responsible. Stop apologizing for him. He's an idiot.
    ----------------------------------------

    "I wish Sadaam and the Taliban were still around."

    - There are plenty of bad guys in the world. Funny how Bushie One and Bushie Two only go after the ones who have oil interests. And the Taliban... yeah, they're in Afghanistan - where we should have stayed.

    ---------------------------------------
    "Halliburton is the most capable American company for the rebuilding effort."

    - So, that's why they're under investigation for billions of missing dollars that was earmarked for Iraq rebuidling. Where'd all that money go?

    -----------------------------------------

    "You do realize that Bush won the majority of votes in '04 though, right"

    - Again, Bushie was RE-ELECTED BY THE SMALLEST MARGIN BY ANY MAN EVER RE-ELECTED FOR THE PRESIDENCY.
    ----------------------------------------------

    "I hope W. continues the terrorist surveillance"

    - Of course you do, because you're a blind follower of this presidential regime.

    ---------------------------------------

    "Was Bill Clinton lying when he said Sadaam had WMD's or do you give him a pass on that one"

    - Yes, I do. I don't blame Ryne Sandberg for the Cubs losing the Bartman Series. And I don't blame former leaders of this country for being wrong about intelligence, when it was another president who got that intelligence wrong (or lied about it) and led us to war. Bushie's ass was in the seat when the call to war was made.

    I like it when elections actually do the talking. Didn't exit polls give Kerry the win back in '04?
    A republican congress, senate, and two time prez is what I'm going on. But we'll see. Bush could easily get re-elected. Just take a good look at the freak show called the Democratic Party. However, he'd get elected for who he is, not for who the democrats are.

    "you do realize that Bush would win the presidency again if he was able to run again."

    - Oh, please. He couldn't win a run for the bathroom if he ran again. Put Bill Clinton and Bushie in a head-to-head and it was be an embarrassment for Bushie. I know you'll never admit that, but it's true.

    --------------------------------------------
    " And get used to Tom Delay in Congress again, buddy."

    - You truly are a confused human being.

    Pat says"Didn't exit polls give Kerry the win back in '04?"

    Yeah, that's pretty interesting, isn't it? Its as if he can't lose. No matter what he always seems to ink out a win, doesn't he?

    Pat says"Didn't exit polls give Kerry the win back in '04?"

    Yeah, that's pretty interesting, isn't it? Its as if he can't lose. No matter what he always seems to ink out a win, doesn't he?

    I think Pat is part of that 23% Dean was talking about.

    James, Bush is no idiot. What has made the last few years so sweet is W running circles around all the smart people.

    I'm not apologizing for Bush. Perhaps you meant to say defending him. He doesn't need my help. He's doing a pretty good job himself.

    Do you blame the Democrats who gave Bush the okay to deal with Iraq the way he did? Do you want Lieberman defeated in Connecticut? I've gotta tell you, the Democratic party looks like it's cracking up.

    Try all you want to make Katrina a lasting legacy of the Bush administration. Over half the country won't let it happen.

    bush is the worst president this country has ever had. the fact that you still support him proves that you're part of that 23%

    James, you say that Bush's win in '04 was the narrowest in history. Wasn't the Kennedy and Nixon one closer? Wasn't Gore and Bush closer? Anyhoo, Bush's win in '04 was pretty impressive, with a record 63 million votes going his way. Perhaps you think Clinton's win was more impressive in 1992. I mean, he beat Bush 41 by 6%, and he beat Perot by 23%. But 57% of the people voted against his left wing ass. In 1996, Clinton beat Dole 49 to 41 with Perot getting 10%. I'm pretty confident that Bush would wax old Slick Willy in a showdown. Mayber Clinton could get Perot to come out of retirement to help him get elected.

    pat, it was the closest re-election in history. BTW, those exit polls were very accurate in states that didn't use touch screen machines. Hmmmmmm....

    The honor of being the worst president in our nation's history belongs to Bill Clinton, with Jimmy Carter coming in a distant second. Actually, I believe W. will end up being one of our greatest presidents.

    " Bush is no idiot"

    - Of course not. He's the "Decider!"
    -------------------------------

    "W running circles around all the smart people."

    - Yeah, but don't you see that big 'dunce' hat on his head as he's running?
    -----------------------------------------

    "Do you blame the Democrats who gave Bush the okay to deal with Iraq the way he did?"

    - Gee, at the time, Dems were giving him the OK to use military force as the last possible option. He jumped the gun, and ran unilaterally into a war. And, anyone who tried to oppose him was labled as unpatriotic. Kind of a tough road to hoe at the time. But, leaders who have balls, like Murtha, tried to stop him.
    -------------------------------

    "Do you want Lieberman defeated in Connecticut?"

    - Of course not. What I do find funny however, was that in 2000 he was 'one of the most liberal members of congress' according to republicans. Now, he's like their best friend. Kind of like Zell!

    -------------------------------------------

    "the Democratic party looks like it's cracking up."

    - Ooooo, I think you should be looking at your own party, sir. Republican congressmembers are running away from Bushie like the plague. I'll admit, the Dem Party isn't very unified..., but at least they're not on their way to jail like the republicans. By the way... it's either ballsy or stupic to accuse democrats of being a split party on a day that Hoekstra, who tried to get us believe in the WMD Fairy, is now railing against Bushie.
    -----------------------------------------------

    "Try all you want to make Katrina a lasting legacy of the Bush administration. Over half the country won't let it happen."

    - Of course, by half you mean the 23-percent of the blind followers of this corrupt presidential regime.

    - But, seriously, how could it be his legacy. He was on vacation during most of it.

    Did pat really say that or was that just James doing some snark??

    " And get used to Tom Delay in Congress again, buddy."

    No, because he changed residency. He is now a resident of the state of Virginia and, thus, ineligible to serve if elected in November.

    Even if he was, DeLay has shown zero interest in going back to Sugar Land.

    Pat, why don't you answer any of my comments? Am I not worth your time?

    I happen to think that Clinton stole both his elections. How's that.

    Concerning vote fraud, I had a big laugh on election night in '04 when they had South Carolina and Virginia going for Kerry. I know that Jimmy Smits' character on the West Wing won South Carolina as a democrat. I laughed at that, too.

    Good night and Good Luck.

    Actually, I believe W. will end up being one of our greatest presidents.

    Okay, I think I need whatever you're taking. Because obviously you're having a lot more fun in your little reality than we are out here.

    " you say that Bush's win in '04 was the narrowest in history."

    - No, I said it was the closest RE-ELECTION in history. Technically, though - he wasn't really elected the first time. He was appointed. But, for the purposes of this post, it was the closest RE-ELECTION of any man seeking the office a second time.
    ----------------------------------------------

    "Did pat really say that or was that just James doing some snark??"

    - No, I always use my name.

    ----------------------------------------

    "Actually, I believe W. will end up being one of our greatest presidents."

    - You are absolutely lost. I hope you don't teach or anything.

    I live in SC, and they never called us for Kerry you jack ass. Maybe you're thinking of NORTH carolina, John Edwards's home state, where it was supposed to be relatively close. Of course bush magically won NC by the same margin he won by in 2000, despite the fact that John Edwards was on the ballot.

    pat, do you really believe bush will end up as one of our greatest presidents? Why, because he's a republican? You're a joke.

    When exactly did the 23% figure that Dean gave out become a scientifically acceptable fact? I guess just over the past few hours. Man, me and the other 23% sure can keep in a republican president, congress, senate, governors, state houses and assemblies et all. We're small in number but oh so powerful.

    When exactly did the 23% figure that Dean gave out become a scientifically acceptable fact? I guess just over the past few hours. Man, me and the other 23% sure can keep in a republican president, congress, senate, governors, state houses and assemblies et all. We're small in number but oh so powerful.

    You're changing the subject, you dick head.

    "This is a truly uneducated statement."

    I would suggest that you learn before you attack.

    Halliburton is one of the few companies that have been used by the military for years under the LOGCAP (http://www.amc.army.mil/LOGCAP/WhoWhere1.html) program. (Other companies include Fluor and DynCorp.) Since I worked on a study that considered privatizating a function the government currently performs and LOGCAP contractors were considered as one of the sources, I'll start by suggesting that I know more about it than you and I worked with people who adminstered LOGCAP contracts for the Army. LOGCAP are contracts that are given to one contractor in a particular military theater and they provide logistical support the military doesn't maintain. (In Kosovo, a contract awarded under the Clinton Administration, for instance, the contractor delivered birthday cakes to soldiers for all in theater on their birthday.) So, it is not unusual for sole sourced agreements like that. Moreover, because they operate in areas which have little infrastructure, often the contract administrators will hand them dollops of cash to deliver what the military needs (bakeries don't abound in Kosovo, for instance); that occurs with all LOGCAP contracts, including the Kosovo contractor. Also, the government has a process called sole sourcing which allows the procurement officials to no-bid contracts to contractors who have specific expertise (for instance, rebuilding oil pipelines )(http://farsite.hill.af.mil/reghtml/regs/far2afmcfars/fardfars/far/06.htm#P79_10284). I worked on awarding these types of contracts for 8(a) and NISH contractors, personally. And if there is any chicanery, any source that is capable of performing the work that was sole sourced can appeal to the GAO, which is out of the pecking order for the administration. So, I think I can suggest that were there another responsible source for the work, they would likely have (though not necessarily) protested and GAO would have overturned the award to Halliburton.

    But, then again, when you are a party dedicated to creating strawman evils, you might not know (or care about) all the facts.

    Hoekstra talks of wmd's and receives ire from Olby. He criticizes Bush and all is well with the orange tool. Hoekstra might become a regular on Countdown.

    Joe Lieberman is an extremely liberal and likeable fellow. I also respect and admire Zell Miller. They are both right on concerning the war on terror.

    I'm not a party person. I'm a conservative, first and foremost. I vote for the most conservative candidate. As far as I'm concerned, Bush has taken on tough moral issues such as stem cell research, traditional marriage, human cloning, euthanasia, and abortion. He's hit a home run regarding each one. Because of those moral stances, which I agree with him on, I hold my nose when it comes to his policies on illegal immigration and spending.

    Hoya, you're giving this pat guy way too much credit. I can't believe you did all that research just to rebut him. I think a squirrel could out-debate this guy.

    Good night, tool.

    "Joe Lieberman is an extremely liberal and likeable fellow. I also respect and admire Zell Miller. They are both right on concerning the war on terror."

    Dude, Ann Coulter was on Hannity and Colmes like a week ago and she said she thought that Lieberman oughtta just go ahead and become republican. As for Zell, you can have him. He's just a mean old redneck is all he is.

    "I'm not a party person. I'm a conservative, first and foremost. I vote for the most conservative candidate."

    - This is nothing but a contradiction.

    ----------------------------------

    " Bush has taken on tough moral issues such as stem cell research, traditional marriage, human cloning, euthanasia, and abortion."

    - Stem cell research is science that could help parapalygics to walk. Getting in the way of that is wrong.

    - 'Traditional Marriage' means selling your daughter off to the highest bidder. You should re-think your terminology. Marriage belongs in our churches... not our government.

    - Euthanasia... You mean when he cut his vacation short to sign the Terry Schiavo injuction (whos name most republicans couldn't even pronounce). Also, by the way, a move 78% of the electorate disapproved of.

    - Abortion, of course... the conservatives carrying card. Can't kill people. Jesus wouldn't like it. Except for the death penalty. That's ok.

    pat, i'm not sure if you're still at your computer or not, but you are a class one pussy. He seldom answered any of the tough questions I had for him. You know why? Because he didn't have any answers. Had he actually given me the chance, I could have run circles around him all day.

    I would disagree with Ann Coulter on that one. That would be like saying John McCain should become a democrat.

    Are Southern liberals considered rednecks or is that just a slur reserved for southern republicans and consevative democrats. You must be from the north. Who else would make such a dumbass statement. Why is he a redneck? Because he's from the south? Man, what a brave statement to make in this day and age. It's not like people throw around that pejorative at all. And when they do, boy, you know they're going to pay the price. For the record, the most annoying accents in this country come from the north. Boston, Pittsbugh, New York, New Jersey. Like nails on a chalkboard.

    "Hoya, you're giving this pat guy way too much credit. I can't believe you did all that research just to rebut him. I think a squirrel could out-debate this guy."

    You aren't that bright are you?

    I would disagree with Ann Coulter on that one. That would be like saying John McCain should become a democrat.

    Are Southern liberals considered rednecks or is that just a slur reserved for southern republicans and consevative democrats. You must be from the north. Who else would make such a dumbass statement. Why is he a redneck? Because he's from the south? Man, what a brave statement to make in this day and age. It's not like people throw around that pejorative at all. And when they do, boy, you know they're going to pay the price. For the record, the most annoying accents in this country come from the north. Boston, Pittsbugh, New York, New Jersey. Like nails on a chalkboard.

    some people have selective hearing. Me thinks pat has selective seeing, because he refused to even acknowledge a lot of my comments.

    FYI, Pat: I was born in Georgia and presently live in South Carolina. I too find many northeast accents to be irritating. But gee wizz, didn't you see that interview Zell did with Chris Matthews? Zell Miller is such a redneck its not even funny.

    debating whether Zell Miller is a redneck would be like debating whether a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich as jelly in it.

    *has

    I don't know where you are, but its almost 3AM here and I'd like to go to sleep. It takes like 15 minutes just to make a single comment. You can either talk or not, but you need to make up your mind.

    Way to read Hoya's post all the way through.

    Sounds like you're a bit of a tough guy.

    Let's see, let's do the old compare a convicted killer to an unborn baby. Makes sense.... to a liberal, sick mind. Let's compare 1.5 million babies murdered in the womb to about 50 convicted murderers executed yearly. I have a suggestion. How about we abort only the male unborn babies. That way, abortion will clearly be pro-woman.

    Stem cell research is destroying human embryos. That is wrong. Do it on your own dime if you must, don't use my tax dollars for something so hideous. You know what else is wrong. Telling sick people's hopes up by telling them they'll walk again with embryonic stem cells.
    God Bless George Bush for attempting to save Terri Schindler's life. She wasn't dying and it took her 14 days to starve to death. But apparently it's a euphoric way to die and we should all try it sometime.

    Your comment about marriage was laughable. Selling your daughter off to the highest bidder? What the hell? Yeah, when I hear the term traditional marriage in today's climate especially, I think of an arranged marriage between two 8 year olds.

    Your comments on stem cell research are revolting. I don't know about you, but if a building caught on fire and I had the choice between rescuing a ten year old boy from the burning building or some goo in a pitri dish, i'm going with the ten year old.

    Is James Carville a redneck? If so, is that good or bad?

    You know what's revolting? Partial birth abortion.
    That's where the baby is delivered 3/4 of the way, head first. The presiding " doctor " then jabs the baby's skull and creates a hole in it. Then he gets a vacuum and sucks out the contents, making the skull collapse and poof, the " procedure" is over. That will be $3,000 please.
    I guess I'm a hypocrite for having compassion for the unborn baby and none for a triple murderer.

    Great scenario about a 10 year old boy being in a laboratory with embryos. In a perfect world, theree would be no goo in any petrie dish. There would not be the harvesting of human beings like they were the latest crop that's in season.

    you're such a bullshit artist. I'm not going to let you distract me with the "definition of redneck debate" the way bush likes to distract people with his "definition of marriage" debate.

    pat, what if you were suddenly diagnosed with Parkinson's? would you still be against stem cell research?

    That Bush is a wacky guy, thinking marriage is between one man and one woman. I mean, the nerve.

    That's the first time anyone's ever called me an artist.

    Are you this brave off the internet?

    i think you're one of those crazy fox news viewers who thinks that if liberals had it their way people would have the right to marry rattle snakes.

    "Are you this brave off the internet?"

    That's when you know you're winning a debate. When you're opponent gets so pissed off they have to make death threats just to even the score.

    Yes I would be against embryonic stem cell research. The same way I'd be against killing someone in order to save my own life, such as smothering a crying baby to death as the Nazis searched my house while we hid from them. The same way I'd be against cutting a rope that supported me and a friend while we mountain climbed, causing him to fall to his death. Etc...
    By the way, those are scenarios, not real life events. I'm not that old or lived such an exciting life.

    If you continue with the name calling, we're done. If not, we can continue..... tomorrow. I'm outta here. Or you can continue saying the nasty words.... to my face. It's your choice.

    Pat Fegan, I think you have the facts of stem cell research confused with abortion. And in both senses human beings aren't being killed.

    Ok, if you're that easily offended, i won't do name calling. to be fair, you are one of the few right wingers i've met on this site who actually favors an honest open debate. most right wingers on this site just want to label anyone who disagrees with them as moonbats and try to basically kick them off the website. I do have to give you credit for that.

    I can't take this. you take way too long to posts comments. I'm going to assume that you've gone to bed. I don't plan on continueing this discussion. I don't find abortion to be a particularly interesting discussion topic. Before hitting the sack, I just want to say that anyone who thinks that gay marriage is a serious issue hasn't been paying attention to what's really going on in the world.

    James, "life-long Conservative" John Dean turned his back on the the Republican party in 1972 when he engineered the Watergate break-in to hide the fact that his wife (then girlfriend) was a high-class hooker. And when he dropped a dime on everyone (especially John Mitchell) to save his own sorry ass during the hearings.

    For the last 30 years, John Dean has been critical of all things Republican, apparently in an effort to rehabilitate his reputation, culminating in KO's weekly love-fest.

    Did you guys know that about 23% of the people in the conservative movement are “blind followers” kind of like the people in Germany and Italy in the 1930’s. Did you guys know that, wow? Will when we become robots to this ideology we can’t say old Keith baby didn’t tell us so.

    P.S. Wasn’t that great watching Olby's interview with John Dean. I placed a bet with myself that somehow, someway Olby would get that Bush is worse then Nixon thing in there. Guess what I won the bet with myself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Hoya Saxa,

    Excellent post, Facts, links, personal experience. Great contribution.

    Adam,

    When you wake up and get back to your computer i will be more than happy to "debate" you the topic of your choosing.

    PS, If you re-read Hoya Saxa's comment you might want to reconsider your comment that he is "rebutting" Pat.

    To all clear-thinkers. Enjoy the new tag-line for the site. I've temporarily replaced "#1 Keith Olbermann Blog in the World".

    "such as smothering a crying baby to death as the Nazis searched my house while we hid from them."

    - Pat, I'm not sure what point your're trying to make, but the "Schindler's List" line is a little used.

    - As for giving people false hope, I suppose it was false hope to start curing people of polio, and influenza... and damn that penicillin. It's called scientific progress. By your logic we would still be in the stone age and 'bleeding people' to get them healthy.

    - I agree with you on partial birth abortion. But, on the whole... old men in suits in Washington have no place telling young women what to do with their bodies. Truly, I believe abortion is WRONG based on my religion... but, we are not a theocracy. We are not governed by the Bible. If you want to be governed by the Bible, move.

    - And yes, you are a hypocrite for saying theres a difference between abortion and the deaht penalty, no matter what the frequency of either. According to the Bible, murder is murder (if that's how you view either one of those practices). Saying you endorse one because it occurs less frequently and it's only done to criminals is making excuses... and hypocricy (sp?).

    James,

    Please answer this question:

    Has funding for stem cell research increased or decreased since President Bush was elected?

    The problem with Hoya's post is nowhere does he address Halliburton's 7 billion dollar no-bid contract for the job (which is illegal). Nothing like breaking the law (again) for the company that pays your VP 12k a month who owes 400,000 stock options with the company. If you don't think thats favortism, you're blind, ignorant, lying or all of the above.

    - He also failed to mention the audit of Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root.
    KBR's Baghdad office had been given 20,531 pieces of US govt property worth more than 60 million dollars. CPA Inspector General Stuart Bowen selected 164 items at random to be checked on. 52 WERE MISSING OR COULD NOT BE ACCOUNTED FOR, INCLUDING TWO ELECTRIC GENERATORS, SIX LAPTOPS, AN 8x20 foot TRAILER ANDANOTHER 18 TRUCKS.
    Overall, Pentagon auditors found Halliburton couldn't account for $1.8 BILLION worth of work they had done in Iraq and Kuwait (that was 'billion' with a B).

    - And there's more... On October 8, 2004, the Defense Contract and Audit Agency found Halliburton had OVERCHARGED the US govt 108 MILLION DOLLARS for importing fuel from Kuwait to Iraq.
    When the UN asked for the DCAA's report, the Pentagon blacked out almost all negative references to the company first.
    Eventually, Henry Waxman, a Dem from California got a hold of an un-redacted copy of the audit, and found sentences like "KBR did not demonstrate the prices for Kuwait fuel and transportation were fair and reasonable." That line was blacked out originally.
    The CPA evntually released it's "Global Corruption Report 2005." In it, Transparency International says "if urgent steps are not taken, Iraq will become the biggest corruption scandal in history, with Halliburton playing a major role."

    - A little more... Dick Cheney refused to investigate Halliburton (big surprise). It wasn't until Congress intevened that something actually happened.

    So, yeah... Halliburton... one of the most corrupt companies in the world and your president and his corrupt white house are giving them illegal contracts.

    Hoya, I don't care what Halliburton did BEFORE Iraq (which Im sure was just as slimy). But, thats all you pointed out... what it did BEFORE. What I've stated is the obvious ongoing corruption NOW.

    Disagreeing with the facts I've put before you equates to sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling.

    Hank said, "Has funding for stem cell research increased or decreased since President Bush was elected?"
    ------------------------------------
    Rove: Bush Would Veto Stem-Cell Bill
    Tuesday, July 11, 2006

    DENVER — President Bush will probably issue his first veto if the Senate approves a bill to expand federal funding of embryonic stem-cell research, White House aide Karl Rove told a newspaper's editorial board.

    The House has already passed the stem cell legislation, co-sponsored by Rep. Diana DeGette, D-Colo., and Rep. Mike Castle, R-Del.

    The Bush administration has allowed federal funding only for existing lines of embryonic stem cells. Researchers and patients'groups say that policy hinders vital research.
    - FOX NEWS
    ------------------------------------------

    Yup. Bastion of goodness this president is. His FIRST VETO would be to stop a BI-PARTISAN bill to further science that could better mankind world-wide.

    After all, he's a "uniter, not a divider." Way to kill the bi-partisan effort, Bushie.

    Man, that last image is from a schizophrenic's worst nightmare. The person who created that image is mentally ill, and anyone who thinks it a worthy political statement needs help desperately.

    I love the martyrdom of poor Saddam in the electric chair! Leave it to lefties to make Saddam a victim! Why not have Uday and Qusay in there as angels? And why the missile in the loin cloth? Does it make any sense, or is it just a crude anti-Christian move? Then we have Bin Laden manipulating an elephant (it represents the Republican party -- it's a way to get you to think!) Now, I am not up to date on the latest lefty mode of thinking, but I thought Bin Laden was a tool of the Bush administration allowing the Bush crew to start a war, but now this image is telling me that it is the opposite! Which poster am I supposed to believe? I am so confused! Somebody draw me a cartoon that resolves this conflict!

    On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being completely rational and 10 being wholly psychotic, I give this poster an 8

    The cartoon isn't simple enough. Too many words, not enough cartooney parts. How about some stink lines from their butts? Or maybe some drool from their mouths? How about a cartoon comparing Bin Laden to olbermann:

    Both have problems with women
    Both love to e-mail angry messages
    Both hate George Bush
    Both believe that Bush should stop surveillance on terrorists
    Both enjoy setbacks in Iraq
    Both believe soldiers in Iraq are infidels

    The list is a long one.

    hey Poor George, nice cartoon, but there's one thing missing. Osama killed three thousand innocent Americans, LeftyLoon, and in an act of war! Bush hasn't killed three thousand innocent Americans -- THEY VOLUNTEERED. Get it, Moonbat? So even though it's an act of war, it's a legitimate act of war, not war made by terrorizers and suiciders.

    Bush is working to free the world, you lefty loon ... who has Osama ever tried to free? (except to free those stoopid suiciders from their worldly bonds so they can be in paradise with virgins! Ha!) George Bush knows better. HIS heaven isn't filled with virgins, no way. HIS heaven is filled with a HEAVENLY FATHER, moonbat. Who'd want a virgin, when they could have the heavenly father?! But not have in a sexual way, cause that's dirty (and soon to be against the law! Ha!) Stoopid paradise virgin believers.

    Adam, namecalling doesn't get anybody anywhere, especially if it's laced with profanity. I have a pretty thick skin other wise. Nothing wrong with trading a wing nut comment here or there? There has been about 45 million abortions in this country since roe v. wade in 1973. That's 45 million people not paying into social security. A country's greatest resource is its' people. When FDR first instituted SS, there were 14 people paying into it. Now, it's like a 3 to 1 ratio.
    Abortion is simply the most barbaric act man has propogated against man. And to nonfactor, it's too bad you don't consider an unborn baby a human being. If a mother wants the baby, it's just that. A baby. If she doesn't, it's a fetus, which in Latin means little one.

    There are plenty of men to blame for abortion. The majority of the ghoulish abortionists are men. Then there's a boyfriend, husband or father who pressures the woman into killing her offspring.

    Why stop at the unborn baby when saying it's not human. Why not the newborn infant, the toddler, etc.. Why not declare it a human being when it can eat and drink on it's own?

    Women can do what they want with their bodies. Just lay off the body of the unborn baby.

    Is it unreasonble to think that a woman who aborts her baby would think twice about sacrifcing herself to save a child she did give birth to?

    "Bush hasn't killed three thousand innocent Americans -- THEY VOLUNTEERED."

    - They volunteered to fight. They didn't volunteer to be killed in a needless war. But, I suppose you don't see that distinction.
    ---------------------------------------------

    "Bush is working to free the world,"

    - Of course, by 'free the world,' you mean 'free middle eastern oil reserves and 'get the guy who tried to kill my daddy!'
    ------------------------------------------

    " HIS heaven is filled with a HEAVENLY FATHER"

    - As long as you opened this one up, you as Christian should know the only one with the power to free the world (as you eluded to earlier) is the Savior. The Good Book bewares of false prophets who claim to do his work (possibly your erstwhile president).
    Seriously, any Christian knows the only one who can rid the world of evil is Christ. Yes, do good in the world, work to bring goodness... but a worldwide capaign to snuff out 'evil-doers'... it'll never happen till Christ returns. But, conservatives are steadfast in their belief Bushie can do it. But, they're also supposed to believe on Christ can do it? That is the ultimate hypocrisy.
    ------------------------------------------

    "Women can do what they want with their bodies. Just lay off the body of the unborn baby."

    - Cant have it both ways, sir. The fetus is in their body. i.e., they should be allowed to do it what they want (have child or abort)

    - I won't get into when a fetus becomes a human. Thats a discussion no one can answer definitively.

    - I also love the hypocrisy of the right. They care about people until their born... and right before they die.
    As long as something is in a womb, don't you dare hurt it. The MOMENT a child is born... you're on your own sucker. Lets cut WIC, let's cut social services, let's cut welfare, let's cut any program that could possibly help people and kids who can't otherwise pay for it, lets cut funding to 'no child left behind' (another hypocrisy).
    And right before someones about to die (ie Schiavo), don't you dare touch them. That vegetable has a right to take in oxygen from a maching until enternity! Bill Frist says so and he saw video of her for 20 minutes, so it must be true... Whats that? She murdered two people before her coma? FRY HER ASS!!!

    Yeah... the right loves hypocrisy.

    Women can do what they want with their bodies. Just lay off the body of the unborn baby.

    So just let me make sue I'm clear...you're of the hardline approach that abortion is wrong no what the circumstances.

    While I appreciate the fact that you have such a strong conviction, I cannot agree. There has to be an exception for "rape, incest and the life of the mother" at the very least.

    The first exception is to prevent additional psychological trauma to the victim of a violent crime. A woman gets raped, then is told that not only was she violated but she must carry her attacker's child? In effect, it creates a scenario where the victim is being punished twice for being a victim.

    An incest exception should be self-explanatory.

    As for the "life of the mother", you have to weigh the fact that you will save one life (the mother's) and lose one (the baby) against the possibility of losing both. The balance is between the life that is and the life that could be.

    The unborn baby is a human being. I feel sorry for you and others who haveto do linguistic gymnastics to get around that fact. The fact that it's in the womb doesn't make the baby her property. Hell, can a woman who breast feeds kill her infant baby while she does so? After all, the baby at her breast is part of her body?

    I take it you're against the death penalty. My postition being pro-life and pro-death penalty is a million times more tenable than your's.

    Nice job calling Terri Schindler a vegetable. That vegetable fought for her life as she was starved to death over 14 days by her monster husband.

    Do you have any idea how many charities are operated by conservatiive people of faith? You see things only in terms of what the government can do for people. That was truly a foolish post.

    Who'd want a virgin, when they could have the heavenly father

    I'll take the virgin over the invisible man any day. Is anyone actually offering one? No! I did not mean Pat.

    To Pro-Choice but rare, the only consistent position on abortion for a pro-lifer is to have no exceptions. If the baby is a human being, than it's a human being, no matter how it was conceived. Believe it or not, there are some women who carry a pregnancy due to rape to term. They feel it helps them defeat the rapist and makes them whole again.

    What mother wouldn't sacrifice her life for her baby's? I mean, it's just mind boggling.

    There's a movie called " The Cardinal" that came out in the '60's sometime. It was directed by Otto Preminger and starred John Huston. It's about a young man from Boston and his life as he grows up, becomes a priest, faces jealousy from his bishop, and finally becomes a cardinal. There's a part in the movie where his sister, who is abandoned by her boyfriend, is found by her brother and former fiance when she's pregnant and passed out. They take her to the hospital where the doctor says they'll haveto abort the baby to save his sister. He's devestated but insists he can't allow one life to be murdered to save another. He prays with her as she goes into the operating room. The next scene is the girl that was born having a birthday party with a picture of her mother in the backround.

    Life beats the hell out of us and sometimes we have to make some excruciating decisions. But they must be made.

    Funny stuff, there Anonymous. Do you write for Keith?

    "Funny stuff, there Anonymous. Do you write for Keith?"

    Yip.

    New Anti-Abortion Pill Kills Mother, Leaves Fetus Alive

    NEW YORK — Pro-life advocates celebrated approval of the new anti-abortion drug UR-86 by the Food and Drug Administration Tuesday, calling it a `safe and effective method` for terminating pregnant women while leaving their unborn children unharmed. Pfizer, manufacturer of UR-86 dubbed the `last-morning-ever pill`, said the drug is intended only for occasions when the mind-set or politics of the mother threaten the life of the fetus. `This drug is designed for extreme cases in which the mother cannot or should not be saved, or when her health has been placed before that of her unborn child,` Pfizer spokesman Anthony Wright said.

    New Anti-Abortion Pill Kills Mother, Leaves Fetus Alive

    HAHHAAH

    Every time a "religion of pieces" follower splodes somewhere(today India) the MSM looks guiltier and guiltier of aiding and abeiting the Terrorists. Hats off(sarc) to the MSM loving leftists and defenders on this board.

    Jill Perry your batshit insane. Your comments openly hope for Al Queda rebound. To hurt Bush? Do you know how they treat women? Like cattle/sex slave. Freedom is a fantasy in muslim countries for all. And if all that you said were true it is only because Bush is to benevolent to nuke our enemies. Just the opposite of what you leftists say about him. Japan fears N. Korea? Does the thought of a powerful Communist country kicking butt make your day? Just dreaming aloud?
    If we fail in the middle east the biggest losers will be the people we are attempting to help. Does that thrill you? Sad, pathetic, small, unkind, hate-filled, loser. And those are my kind words for you. What must it feel like to wake up every day and think hmmm what can i say/do to hurt the USA? Wipe the bile off your chin. It's showing.

    "sometimes we have to make some excruciating decisions. But they must be made."

    - Then make the decision YOU want to make... and let other people make the decisions THEY want to make. You have no right to make it for them... neither does Congress.

    Anonymous writes:

    "His [ President Bush's] FIRST VETO would be to stop a BI-PARTISAN bill [expansion of funding of embryonic stem cell research] to further science that could better mankind world-wide."

    Why don't you tell the rest of the story about funding for ESCR, Anon?:

    It's important to remember that there is no ban on embryonic stem cells research. Anybody who wants to do it is free to do so, he just can't do it on the public's dollar. If it held the promise that proponents claim, top pharmaceutical companies would be vying for chances to throw their research dollars at it. After all, if it worked as promised they could expect to make huge profits. That they don't see such prospects should tell us something.

    As a result, those seeking to continue to spend their time working on ESCR have to go looking for other sources of funding, and all that's left for them is the federal treasury. And that's what it's all about.

    By the way, you never did answer my original query: Has funding for stem cell research increased or decreased since President Bush was elected? When you answer that question, I will put this one to you: If ESCR funding is greater under President Bush than under Clinton will you be willing to condemn Clinton as you have President Bush for failing to do enough to secure funding for ESCR?


    If we succeed in the middle east the biggest losers will be the people we are purporting to help.


    Why do leftists drool bile?
    Why do leftists drool bile when they defend the MSM?
    Why do leftists drool bile when they defend the MSM as it aids and abets our enemies?

    Has funding for stem cell research increased or decreased since President Bush was elected?

    That's a trick question, hank. Of course funding has increased under the Bush Administration - Clinton first approved funding in 1998 but it was delayed until 2001, then delayed again during the transition from Clinton to Bush. Therefore, any money would be an increase.

    I dislike trick questions.

    House Republicans Bring 'Fetus Farming' to Stem Cell Debate

    WASHINGTON -- House Republicans plan to meet this week to discuss "fetus farming," which some claim is the termination of a pregnancy in order to utilize the fetus for medical or scientific purposes. A letter targeting the alleged process, written by Rep. Dave Weldon (R-FL,) calls it a "gruesome practice". Though research has turned up little to support that the practice exists, Weldon's letter seems to be aimed at the process known as therapeutic cloning, a process used to harvest stem cells, and comes as the Senate is set to debate a stem cell bill.

    The reason the abortion debate, like all other scientific vs. religious debates are so complex is because two different groups of people have a different view of reality. It was very hard for people to accept that the Earth was round, and very hard for people to accept that the Sun didn't rotate around the earth, and very hard for people to accept that evolution is a fact, and very hard for people to accept that the Earth is 5 billion years old, and it will be very hard for people to accept that a fetus is not a child, but eventually people will accept it, and years from now people will look back and wonder with amazement how people could ever think a fetus was a child, or the Earth was 6000 years old, and evolution was a hoax, and the Earth was flat.

    Science will always be hard for some people to accept.

    Nonfactor you moron, don'tcha know that STORKS bring post-fetal infants tied up in bundles to deserving little families all over the world.

    IT'S MAGIC!!!!!! Accept it, bitch, it's a FACT.


    There is absoulutely no proof whatsoever that a fetus develops into a HUMAN, is there, idiot?

    ABSOLUTELY!

    I want to thank James and Adam to back me up. Guys the world is going our way. We're winning. Pretty soon we'll have those Gulags here! Then these righties will feel pain!

    adam said>>
    "I don't know about you, but if a building caught on fire and I had the choice between rescuing a ten year old boy from the burning building or some goo in a pitri dish, i'm going with the ten year old."

    Yeah, you'd really like the ten year old if he's the one who put the goo in that petri dish...

    Speaking of posing as a real man I had five deferments in vietnam.

    "The problem with Hoya's post is nowhere does he address Halliburton's 7 billion dollar no-bid contract for the job (which is illegal)."

    The contract to which you refer is a no-bid award under the provision of the Federal Acquisition Regulation (the link for which was provided in the earlier post), which allows no-bid award to a contractor with special expertise. I suggest you read the FAR to gain some idea of the regulations. Next, no-bid contracts are actually relatively common. For example, National Institute for the Severely Handicapped (NISH) contractors have special treatment under what are known as JWOD provisions and can be awarded no-bid contracts. The government can also curtail competition to award to certain small, disadvantaged businesses. So you are actually incorrect about it being illegal.

    With respect to your other allegations, Halliburton is not the only contractor to have personnel accused of pilfering. I know a DCAA auditor that worked on Boeing, and she said that it had all sorts of problems. Moreover, the incidence of pilfering by government employees is very high also. For example, soldiers at Fort Lewis were recently caught selling government purchased supplies on the local black market. The problem isn't that Halliburton is 'evil', as the Dems suggest; the problem is that there are people who take advantage of loose controls in any organization--the federal government being especially loose in its applications of controls--to pilfer.

    Also, what you haven't addressed in the issue that I raised is the Dems depiction of corporations as evil to gain political office to "protect" innocent Americans, which Geef claims the administration is doing with terrorism. In actuality, corporations are inanimate entities that sometimes have employees whom commit criminal acts. That doesn't mean that you attack corporate America and / or pass ineffectual, demagogic legislation; it means you prosecute criminal activity.

    johnny dollar:

    I notice you slammed the ex-con John Dean. For those of you who do not remember, he was President Nixon's (republican) White House attorney during the Watergate cover-up. Good point made.

    Have you ever talked about the Fox News host who was convicted for Contempt of Congress? Oliver North was convicted by congress for lying to them about another republican president's illegal operations.

    And, have you ever commented on the other Fox News contributor, Mark Fuhrman? You rememeber, the cop who, amoung other things, most likely planted evidence, was shown in court to be a racist. He was a major reason OJ got away with murder.

    Just in case you forgot.

    Don't use one standard for those you think are 'liberal' and another for 'conservative'. Use the same standard and THINK for yourself.

    Ah, crshedd! Now you are posting like a true left wing nutjob! I thought you used to listen to Rush and watch O'Reilly?

    You give lefty trolls a bad name! Kos is shaking his head in disgust.

    KfK:

    First of all you posted this on the wrong thread. Duh!

    You obviously didn't read my post. Yes, I use to listen to Rush. In the example I gave, I said it was from at least TWO YEARS AGO!!

    And, you are right about the Factor. I still watch it. I get thru about half of it. I see what he is going to talk about then decide if I can stomach that skit. So, yes, I was not totally clear. I apologize.

    See, when I make a mistake or un-clear statement I correct it.

    About high gas prices....Gas would be a bargain at $10 per gallon if the alternative was walking(for most americans). people who whine about gas prices are probably driving more car than they can afford, have a better cell phone package than they can afford, more house/condo/apartment,etc.And less motivation to do anything about it but whine. Now imagine your in a convenience store and a person orders $5 in lottery, 2 packs of smokes, six pack of beer, and $10 in fuel.And he comments that gas sure is expensive. Which way did he vote last election? Democrat.How could you tell? Easy to spot Dems. Partly because of poor decision making skills sure,but mainly because he whined.LMAO.

    Great post Crshedd. Except for one thing. This is Olbermann watch. If Ollie North or Mark Fuhrman are ever guests on CD, then you can bet they will be critiqued in kind. But I guess we'll never know that for sure, will we.

    The criticism of Dean as a disbarred lawyer and convicted felon are both true and appropriate. Dean paid hush money to the Watergate burglars, and pled guilty to a reduced charge of obstruction of justice. Some legal expert there.

    Since you want comment on North, read the wiki article on him. His convictions were overturned and the charges dismissed.

    Personally I think Fuhrman is a scumbag. But since he's never been on CD, why would J$ comment on him?

    This is the problem with the Olbermaniacs. WTF is the relevance of North or Fuhrman to John Dean?

    Hey crshedd,

    I am well aware of the thread I am posting on, DUH. I was saying that your post ON THIS THREAD is a true lefty post, while your post ON THE OTHER THREAD was a troll post where you used the "I used to watch conservatives" ploy.

    As for the rest of your posts, who really cares?

    crshedd speaking of racists Robert Byrd (KKK) from WV is a Deomocrat right? You think you become a grand kleagle without hanging black folks? Don't dare be so naive. Speaking of racists how did Al Gore Sr. vote on civil rights act? Against he was a strict segregationist(racist) Speaking of racist what party is against school choice but pro-abortion? Which hurts black folks.Democrats.So you'll have to do better than Fox news/Furhman to paint Reps with that broad brush.
    Ok your a NY city cop/union member maybe/ probably vote Dem(most Nyers do) so when the cops profile they are Dems right?Highly probable.

    Scott:

    Good points all. I am just trying to get a feel for this site. I see a LOT of praise for BO and Rush on this site. I am just curious if the same standards apply.

    I am not an Olbermaniac as you suggest. I only get thru about half his show, I flip between BO and CD. I have trouble with both, and agree with some. CD is not political enough, he goes on with a bunch of fluff just like Good Morning America. BO is too one sided for a show that purports to being fair and balanced.

    As I have said in a couple of other posts, I try to get information from many sources, and then make my own decision.

    scooter:

    First, read all my post, not just a few words.

    Secondly, I live in New Hampshire. You know, the ONLY state in New England that voted for Bush TWICE!

    I am a MODERATE conservative. My problem with conservatives is shown in your post. Just because I do not fall in line and regurgitate the stuff on this site, I am attacked, ridiculed and called names.

    Gee, I thought this country was for open debate, asking questions and open disagreement. Sorry, that only happens in democracies I guess.

    Don't read a post and assume you know all about that person.

    "Excellent post, Facts, links, personal experience. Great contribution."

    No problem.

    Hey i didn't attack you. I made statements of my opinion. With hypotheticals. Naive is hardly bringing out the daggers. I do think BO lets thru more alternative opinion thru guests than KO.

    Hey i didn't attack you. I made statements of my opinion. With hypotheticals. Naive is hardly bringing out the daggers. I do think BO lets thru more alternative opinion thru guests than KO.

    Life begins at conception. I know it's a powerful and controversial concept but try to wrap your mind around it. So because an unborn baby isn't fully developed, it's not human? When does a person become human? Only at the height of its' physical development? Only when it is outside of the womb? To be pro-abortion is to be irrational. You'd do better, though, to admit that it's human and then you'd be more honest. More and more pro-abortion people are doing it. Feminist Naomi Wolfe has admited that an unborn baby is human and is still pro death as ever. Science is not on your side, my friend. Doesn't looking at a sonagram give you pause? Didn't that famous picture a few years ago of an unborn baby clutching the finger of a doctor while he operated on it in utero make you think? The body of the unborn baby is developed in the earliest stages. Only saying that life begins at conception is respectable and scientific. One can oppose abortion on a purely biological and scientific level if religion makes you squirm. There's a group called athiests for life. Also, there's feminists for life. Classic liberal Nat Hentoff is pro life.

    Equating believing in the humanity of the unborn baby to thinking the earth is round is pathetic. Truly you offer a better argument than that.

    It's always enlightening to learn that an unborn child, complete with arms, legs, ears, heart, nose, lips, etc... isn't human.

    When was the last time that Olby had a knock down drag out debate on his program? Was it when Clinton was getting bj's in the oval office?

    Never. KO doesn't allow dissent much like KOS,DU and most leftist blogs.

    Ok you lefties win Christians and Muslims are similar in the extreme. Christians are excedingly generous toward fellow man/woman. Muslims subjugate all regardless of gender. Christians would like you to convert. Muslims will cut your fucking head off or blow your bus/plane/school up if you don't convert. Christians go to church and pray. Muslims go to mosque and pray for allah to help them kill infidels. Some christian sects allow women to become ministers/sisters. Muslims treat women like cattle/sex slave/property. Yes the cartoon comparing Bin laden and GWB was spot on. Now tell me where is the Muslim Hospital? You know like Baptists Catholics Jews all sponser hospitals. Do muslims? Yes the cartoon was a fair depiction of how similar those 2 religious zealots really are.Bravo.

    Man, that last image is from a schizophrenic's worst nightmare. The person who created that image is mentally ill, and anyone who thinks it a worthy political statement needs help desperately.

    ------------------

    No, it's not the picture that's schizo, ill, and nightmarish, dummy. It's the advocacy and systematic implementation of the doomed policies of rendition, torture, secret prisons, invasion, occupation, devestation, mismanagement, and permanent military bases -- that are ill and nightmarish -- not the picture, you simpleton.

    Torture, secret prisons, invasion, occupation, devestation, mismanagement, and permanent military bases? That sounds like all the marxist and leftist governments around the world that liberals in this country have been so keen on for the past 60 years!

    Pat Fegan:

    You just described Iraq perfectly.

    In actuality, corporations are inanimate entities that sometimes have employees whom commit criminal acts.

    quite true.

    + + +

    That doesn\'t mean that you attack corporate America ... it means you prosecute criminal activity.

    certainly. but sometimes both are warranted.

    + + +

    and / or pass ineffectual, demagogic legislation;

    ineffectual\'s in the eye of the beholder; naturally, it depends on the legistlation.

    + + +

    Also, what you haven\'t addressed in the issue that I raised is the Dems depiction of corporations as evil to gain political office to \"protect\" innocent Americans,

    yep, politicians being political.

    some corporations are evil at times.

    + + +

    which Geef claims the administration is doing with terrorism.

    which, of course, it is. politicians being political.

    Never. KO doesn't allow dissent much like KOS,DU and most leftist blogs.

    long past time to get over it. that's not the show's format. it's biased. keith's biased. but he's biased against the a--holes who sold you torture and secret prisons and executive power grabs like soap flakes.

    Soap flakes? How old are you, like 70?

    history major nitwit. how old are you, dipshit?

    crshedd, get some originality. You're insane if you think that sums up the US Military in Iraq. Just insane. You do realize there were atrocities perpetrated by troops during WWII and that close to a million civilians were killed by allied bombing in that war. I seem to recall some rape charges against some army guys in Bosnia during the Clinton administration. Was that typical Army behavior?

    If you think torture et all is what is going on in Iraq to the point where it DEFINES our mission, again, you are insane. Stop drinking the Keith Kool Aid.

    If you think torture et all is what is going on in Iraq to the point where it DEFINES our mission, again, you are insane.

    well, it certainly doesn't define our entire mission in Iraq, but it does serve to summarize our reputation in the region right now -- fairly or not. once people heard of our advocacy and use of rendition and torture that did a lot to lose their hearts and minds.

    on a similar topic, what do you make of the following? things are escalating pretty quickly in Gaza. i would bet that this move by Israel, if it's not coordinated with the U.S., they certainly have our behind-the-scenes blessing. it certainly fits with the neocon strategy to get a foothold in the area and then influence all events as much as possible.

    ISRAELIS INVADE LEBANON AFTER SOLDIERS ARE SEIZED

    Wednesday July 12, 2006
    Guadarian International -- Israeli tanks and troops today invaded southern Lebanon after Hizbullah captured two soldiers and killed several others. The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, described the capture of the soldiers an "act of war" by Lebanon, with today's developments compounding the ongoing political crisis over an abducted Israeli soldier being held in Gaza. Palestinian militants holding Corporal Gilad Shalit have demanded that all Palestinian women and young people held in Israeli jails be freed in exchange for his release. The Bush administration blamed Syria and Iran for today's kidnappings and violence, calling for the immediate and unconditional release of the two soldiers. Hizbullah said it would not release them until Israel agreed to set free all Arab prisoners.

    and now this just came across the wires ...

    BREAKING NEWS: Israeli Cabinet authorizes 'severe and harsh' response to kidnapping of its two soldiers by Hezbollah guerrillas

    things are heatin' up quick ... lock and load ...

    "If you think torture et all is what is going on in Iraq to the point where it DEFINES our mission, again, you are insane. "

    - Pat, again, you are amiss. more than 200 Iraqis have died while in our custody. Our president hosted the President of Uzebikistan at the White House, signed agreements with him, and has arranged for countless inmates to be transferred to Uzbek where the 'torture' methods are - shall we say - a little lax. LIKE BOILING PEOPLE IN WATER!!!

    Yup. Bushie wants to rid the world of terror. Except in places that allow us to set up shot with military bases (like Uzbekistan) and do the torture we cant do (although, we do a fair amount, in our own right - at the direction of our erstwhile Sec of State).

    James,

    I am glad you care so much for the enemy. You care enough to make stuff up and attack your own Government. Do you have evidence that we are sending terrorist off to be boiled? I mean hard evidence. Not the voices you hear in your head, but a link or a news story?

    Does it bother you that you are Hell-bent on defending people who would not hesitate to put a knife through your eye? How about you defend the soldiers who were kidnapped, tortured, and beheaded before you defend the terrorists? It would be a lot easier to pretend that you were not an anti-American leftist.

    "I am glad you care so much for the enemy. You care enough to make stuff up and attack your own Government."

    - Nope. Sorry, KfK. Yet another of your pitiful attempts at labeling someone unAmerican who disagrees with this administration's policies.
    See, the difference between you and me, is that I am able to see this country (one that I love) for it's many greatnesses... and it's failures.
    When you put the blinders on, never accepting when your country has made a mistake, you begin goosestepping before you know it.
    You're as unAmerican as they come.

    Hey everybody, 'Get Over It' is a "Nitwit History Major" and he learned himself all about soap flakes from his schooling. Tell us more.

    Crazy James,

    How about an article from a real source that can confirm that we have sent people to be boiled alive. Don't you think the New York Times would have reported that?

    Anyway, my point was why don't you care or decry the torture and decapitation of your fellow citizens? Why is that not on your radar screen? Why do you feel more of a kinship with savage terrorists?

    "why don't you care or decry the torture and decapitation of your fellow citizens? "

    - I do. Daily. But not on this board, and not to you. My points that have to be made on this board are about the hypocrisy of the republican right. It hurts every time I have to report on another casuality in this war... American and otherwise. Especially when these military deaths are needless.

    - Remember, God doesn't just care about Americans and American deaths.

    - You, however, feel we should be fixated on US deaths and the bastards who are causing them. You think just because we are the victims of brutality, that we can't also be doing wrong in some aspect. You view is shortsighted - at best.

    KfK: "why don't you care or decry the torture and decapitation of your fellow citizens? "

    James: I do. Daily. But not on this board, and not to you.

    OK James. I am willing to believe you. Point me to a time-stamped post where you displayed your absolute disgust at the torture of American soldiers by Islamic radicals. You just said you worry about our guys daily, just not on this blog, so I imagine there are other blogs where your patriotism shines through.

    Frankly, your excuse rings very hollow. You have not once (on this blog) taken the terrorists to task for torture and beheading. Instead, you rush to the defense of medieval killers. For God's sake, you claim people are being boiled in the name of the United States with no proof.

    So James, let's see your patriotic side. Link to your posts.

    I don't need to link to anything. I'll just tell you right off the terrorists, insurgents, Taliban and al-Qaeda are deplorable. It's heart-breaking to see what our troops have to go through on a daily basis. The way they're being killed. Especially for fighting in a war that, now, more than half of this country doesn't believe in... and nearly the entire world believes is wrong.

    You're sad because you question a persons patriotism when they question the manner in which the country is being run. You're sad because you don't realize that questioning and holding a governmental body accountable is one of the very definitions of freedom and patriotism.

    My patriotism is firm. I fly and american flag, I sy the Pledge and sing the Anthem every time. I stand, shake the hands of our troops and thank them for the sacrifices they make.

    But, I also question the manner in which they're being used, which they have no say-so in. And if you think that questioning our governments motives and practices... and pointing out the blind ideology that you and your like follow... if you think that's all unpatriotic - you're just sad.

    James,

    You do need to link to something. You claim you are patriotic and worry about your fellow citizens fighting terrorists abroad. You have no problem accusing our guys of war crimes. You have no problem accusing your Government of war crimes. Why should you have a problem linking to one of your patriotic posts where you get angry at terrorists who kidnapped and beheaded our troops in violation of the Geneva Conventions that you wish so upon the terrorists. Or for that matter any post that expresses outrage at the torture of our people?

    If you are not full of crap, you will have no problem linking to something. Now, why are you refusing? Why the delay?

    By the way, you can't link to that last post of yours, touching and believable though it was.

    Gosh, KfK... I dont spend all day on blogs like some other people - like you, apparantly.

    I don't need to link you to anything. You can question my patriotism all you want. The opinion of some faceless, nameless, coward like you doesn't mean a thing to me.

    I'll just continue to watch and make sure I take you guys to task for the blind allegiance you have, without holding anyone in your party to a hint of accountability.

    (just for the record... I never said we sent people off to be tortured. I said we've sent people to a country where boilings have happanened... and we've sent a shit load of money there. My question is 'if we're fighting tyranny and advancing freedom, why arent we fighting in Uzbekistan? Answer - they let us have our bases there... they have no oil).

    And, where did I EVER defend - as you called them - "midevil killers'?

    I didn't - you're a liar.

    >"Gosh, KfK... I dont spend all day on blogs like some other people - like you, apparantly."

    James, get real. You are on this site ALOT. You use the internet enough that at least one post should be available to you.

    Just think about this exchange a bit. That is all I ask of you.

    KfK, I'll give you this - It's inhuman what's happening to our troops. No one, republican, democrat - whatever - no one wants to see them dying like they are. Our major differences are whether or not we think their deaths are worth what we're fighting for. Which, even you have to admit, has been explained as a different goal on several occassions.

    Of course I disagree with the terrorists and all the other 'bad guys' we're fighting. What frightens me... I'm sure many others (liberals, moonbats, whatever you want to call us)... what scares me is that we might turn into one of the bad guys in some aspect. America is supposed to be held to a higher standard. In many ways, we are... humanitarian aid and the like. But, when we send money to a place like Uzbekistan... when we have places running like abu-Ghraib... these types of things aren't what we're supposed to be doing. And you can't blame the press for everything. When you play that card, youre like the kid in detention who isn't sorry for what he did - youre just sorry you got caught.

    I agree with you on a lot, KfK. I want our troops safe. I want insurgents and suicide bombers taken to justice. I just don't want to see us lowering ourselves to a criminal level to get them. I'm not saying our administration is a bunch of criminals, please dont interpret me that way. But, there needs to be accountability of the adminstration. Congress refuses to do it. So, the press... and to a very small degree, people like myself question them too.

    We're all americans. We disagree about a lot. But, we all agree our troops are the best in the world... and they deserve more than what they're getting. From the insurgents... and in my opionion, this administration.

    God Bless America.

    KfK, I'll give you this - It's inhuman what's happening to our troops. No one, republican, democrat - whatever - no one wants to see them dying like they are. Our major differences are whether or not we think their deaths are worth what we're fighting for. Which, even you have to admit, has been explained as a different goal on several occassions.

    Of course I disagree with the terrorists and all the other 'bad guys' we're fighting. What frightens me... I'm sure many others (liberals, moonbats, whatever you want to call us)... what scares me is that we might turn into one of the bad guys in some aspect. America is supposed to be held to a higher standard. In many ways, we are... humanitarian aid and the like. But, when we send money to a place like Uzbekistan... when we have places running like abu-Ghraib... these types of things aren't what we're supposed to be doing. And you can't blame the press for everything. When you play that card, youre like the kid in detention who isn't sorry for what he did - youre just sorry you got caught.

    I agree with you on a lot, KfK. I want our troops safe. I want insurgents and suicide bombers taken to justice. I just don't want to see us lowering ourselves to a criminal level to get them. I'm not saying our administration is a bunch of criminals, please dont interpret me that way. But, there needs to be accountability of the adminstration. Congress refuses to do it. So, the press... and to a very small degree, people like myself question them too.

    We're all americans. We disagree about a lot. But, we all agree our troops are the best in the world... and they deserve more than what they're getting. From the insurgents... and in my opionion, this administration.

    God Bless America.

    Well said, James.

    Who is your source on the 200 deaths? Seriously.

    How many Nazis and Japanese died in our custody during WWII? How many Southerners died in Union Prisons during the Civil War? Were Lincoln and FDR war criminals? It's called context.

    How many of the deaths have been suicide? How many were self defense? Pardon me for saying it, but the number seems way to high. I'll wait to see who the source on these numbers are. And yes, the source does matter!

    Oh, and James: Tough words for the " insugents" there. Try terrorists. They " deserve more?" Just what the hell does that mean?

    So, Pat, you're dismissing the deaths of others because "hey, it's happened before." I too will wait for a source, but to dismiss the deaths of people simply because it's happened before on a larger scale in another war is silly. A dead person is still a dead person.

    Hey non-factor, have you ever heard anyone call FDR a war criminal for his part in the killing of a million civilians by allied bombing during WWII? And we're talking about bombing civilians on purpose. Try answering my question.

    Did I say I was excusing any killing of prisoners? I believe I said that context matters.

    Leftists like to believe our atrocities in Iraq are on par with the Bataan death march.

    Yes I have heard those claims, Pat. I've studied WWII extensively, and it's not uncommon to hear some people call FDR a war criminal--I don't know if he's been called a war criminal recently, however. Major Problems in the History of World War II by Mark A. Stoler and Melanie S. Gustafson has many documents on the reaction after Dresden and Hisoshima and Nagasaki.

    What context are you trying to show? That these dead people don't really matter in the context of past wars?

    Leftists like to believe our atrocities in Iraq are on par with the Bataan death march.

    Can't go a post without one of these.

    The context is this: Over a four year span, a million civilians were killed by allied bombing? That doesn't include the number of prisoners who died in allied prisons. And yet WWII was a just and noble war.

    What are the numbers of civilian dead at the hands of the US forces, by bombing and in our prisons? We're coming up on five years for the war on terror and I think I can safely say that it pales in comparison to the war criminal FDR's inhumanity. Part of the lower civilian casualty number is more sophisticated weaponry. Most probably has to do with, oh, I don't know, us not targeting innocent civilians!

    Of course there were a few lone voices who denounced FDR, but it didn't take long for the rehabilitation to commence. Something about it being a neccessary evil or some such thing.

    What are YOU trying to say? That the civilians who died at the order of FDR deserved to be bombed?

    James,

    The terrorists pose a far greater risk than our own Government, and our treatment of prisoners is more than adequate. There has been congressional oversight of the covert programs, they have been legal, and they have been necessary. Without them, we would see subway bombs (Britain), train bombs (Spain and India), nightclub bombs (Bali), and other atrocities.

    Look at England carefully. As the Islamists grow in strength, the politicians give way. Islamists openly mock the deaths of British citizens. Rallys occur with signs like this being displayed in Britain:

    In Denmark, Islamists have killed artists (Van Gogh) and are continuing to threaten politicians and the fabric of Democracy.

    In France, riots lasted weeks and tension continues to mount.

    The threat we face from Islamists is real and must be dealt with seriously. The more we waste energy attacking our Government and advertising legal programs like SWIFT, the less ability we have to combat terrorists.

    What are YOU trying to say? That the civilians who died at the order of FDR deserved to be bombed?

    When did I say anything that even resembled that?

    Without them, we would see subway bombs (Britain), train bombs (Spain and India), nightclub bombs (Bali), and other atrocities.

    Two things surprise me here: 1) You know all the secret programs the government is conducting and 2) You know they have prevented "bombs and other atrocities." How would you know this exactly?

    Islamists openly mock the deaths of British citizens. Rallys occur with signs like this being displayed in Britain

    You can do the same thing in the U.S. without compromise. Just being that that picture was taken in Britain doesn't change anything.

    How are we "attacking our Government," KfK? What's dangerous to our Democracy is a passive populace that will let a branch of Government get away with anything. Don't treat the threat of a fringe group from a religion as the biggest threat to our nation--they aren't.

    P.S. The security we have for our trains and subways is still an embarrassment.

    I am talking to James Nonfactor.

    Pat said, "How many Nazis and Japanese died in our custody during WWII?"

    - I'll be honest, I don't know. It's a legitimate question, too. If you figure it out, let us know.

    --------------------------------------------
    Pat said, "How many Southerners died in Union Prisons during the Civil War? Were Lincoln and FDR war criminals? "

    - This is truly stupid, though. First, you're comparing the Iraq War to a war from more than 200 years ago. Second, most people were dying of diahhreha. Idiotic comparison.
    ------------------------------------

    Pat said, "How many of the deaths have been suicide? How many were self defense? Pardon me for saying it, but the number seems way to high."

    - And what reports are you citing to back up your claim of 'high suicide' numbers?

    - Either way, it doesn't matter. A death in custody is a death in custody. The Butte-Silver Bow Prison in Montana had a rash of suicides at one point a few years ago, and people were outraged, and changes were made. When people are in your custody, you are responsible for their well-being and safety... even if it's safety from themselves.
    ---------------------------------------

    Anyway. These isn't the original text I was using for my argument... I can't find the one that said 200 casualties in US custody. These ones say a little more than 100. But, it at least gives you an idea that there are practices going with our military that shouldn't be going on.

    http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06221-etn-hrf-dic-rep-web.pdf

    http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2006_alerts/etn_0222_dic.htm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4738008.stm

    Again, I'm not saying I agree with everything in that first report. But, you can't deny there are some things happening that needs to be looked into. Which our president, Sec of State and congress refuse to do.
    -----------------------------------------

    As for your 'high suicide'number claim... here you go....

    "At least 108 people have died in US custody in Iraq and Afghanistan... most of them VIOLENTLY, according to government data.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml

    Can't blame that one on the 'liberal media' either. That's gov't info.

    KfK said, "The terrorists pose a far greater risk than our own Government,"

    - I agree 100%.
    -----------------------------

    "and our treatment of prisoners is more than adequate."

    - You don't know this. Neither do I. Very few people probably do. That's why we have to ask questions and find out for sure.
    ----------------------------------------

    "There has been congressional oversight of the covert programs, they have been legal, and they have been necessary."

    - Totally wrong. Did you not hear about Hoekstra LAST WEEK. An ardent supporter who claimed WMD'S WERE FOUND... came out and said they were not being informed sufficiently by the president to the point where a crime may have been committed. I hope you don't purport to know more about covert operations than a member of the House Intell Committee.
    -------------------------------------

    "The threat we face from Islamists is real "

    - This is a pretty bigotted statement. We also face real threats from Christians (Kansas church protesting soldier funerals).
    Extremists would probably be a more accurate word. An extremist of ANY religion is dangerous.

    I'm proud of you, KfK, that was the first post I've seen you not insult anyone in.

    KfK: "and our treatment of prisoners is more than adequate."

    James: You don't know this. Neither do I. Very few people probably do. That's why we have to ask questions and find out for sure.

    Asking questions is one thing. Asserting that the USA is sending prisoners to be boiled alive is another.

    James: Did you not hear about Hoekstra LAST WEEK?

    Yes I did. He claims the administration "may have" violated the law by not having congressional oversight of ALL programs. Hoekstra has now been briefed on those programs as he has stated. Most likely they were not major programs, and nothing has been raised since. In addition, the leaky Congress seems Hell bent on exposing these programs, so while I like the idea of Congressional oversight, I trust Bush to do the right thing more than I trust idiots like Rockefeller (who sits on the committee and wrote the famous letter to himself regarding the NSA program) to NOT DO the WRONG THING.

    KfK:"The threat we face from Islamists is real "

    James: This is a pretty bigotted statement.


    No James, it is a very true statement. There is not a global movement from any other religion to force conversion to Islam and kill infidels. I suggest you visit littlegreenfootballs.com. After your first visit, rant and rave about it, then go back and concentrate on the facts that are posted there. It is not bigotry to openly discuss the global Islamic jihad movement. It is politically correct suicide to pretend that movement does not exist.

    "Most likely they were not major programs"

    - Not major programs? Of course if they're not major that's why Hoekstra is saying the law may have been broken.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    " Asserting that the USA is sending prisoners to be boiled alive is another."

    - I'll concede on this one. I DONT know if we're sending them to be boiled alive. But we DO KNOW we ARE SENDING prisoners to a country that partakes in that practice.
    -------------------------------------------------

    "There is not a global movement from any other religion to force conversion to Islam and kill infidels. "

    Really?

    "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."
    - Ann Coulter talking about Muslims.

    -------------------------------------------

    KfK said, "It is not bigotry to openly discuss the global Islamic jihad movement. It is politically correct suicide to pretend that movement does not exist."

    - If that's what you believe. Fine. I can respect that.

    - But then why can't you respect people who want to 'openly discuss' the potential of a corrupt presidential administration. We feel it would 'political suicide (and disaster on many levels) to pretend it doesnt exist.'

    - Debate our points all you want. But, respect our positions like you just asked me to respect yours (which on the Islamic thing, I can undersand your point a little more now)... and don't call us 'unpatriotic' for asking our own questions.

    KfK wrote:

    "The threat we face from Islamists is real "

    To which James responded:

    " This is a pretty bigotted statement. We also face real threats from Christians (Kansas church protesting soldier funerals).
    Extremists would probably be a more accurate word. An extremist of ANY religion is dangerous"

    See folks, Islamist extremists who maim, kill and torture on a routine basis are morally equivalent to the nutty so-called Christians led by Fred Phelps who are chanting and screaming revolting messages at funerals for soldiers.

    As disgusting as we might find Fred Phelps and his fringe group, the attempt by James to smear conservative Christians by equating them with murderous Islamo-Fascistsis is typical of the liberal mindset. Voters in recent elections are smart enough to realize that libs like John Kerry and Howard Dean (who think like James) regard conseravtive Christians with disdain and it is one of the major reasons that libs have been repeatedly rejected at the ballot box.

    Whoever said, "John Kerry and Howard Dean (who think like James) regard conseravtive Christians with disdain "

    - Learn your facts. John Kerry is a life-long, practicing Catholic.

    James writes:
    "Learn your facts. John Kerry is a life-long, practicing Catholic."


    The Catholic faith opposes abortion. John Kerry supports abortion. John Kerry may call himself a Catholic but what he believes is something other than Catholicism. And he certainly is not a conservative Christian.

    It is interesting reading through your posts James. You try to present yourself as a reasonable thoughtful person (such as your explanation about supporting the troops but oppsoing the war in Iraq). Then you revert to "Krazy James" mode and equate fundamentalist Chritians with Islamist extemists. I simply cannot regard you as a responsible voice but just another unhinged lib mud slinger

    James:

    "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."
    - Ann Coulter talking about Muslims.

    Last I checked, Ann Coulter did not control a country as Hamas does, and she does not have a weapons cache and group of militant loyalists. That is a silly comment. However, you managed to eclipse that silly comment with this:

    "John Kerry is a life-long, practicing Catholic."

    You can not really believe that he is a "practicing" Catholic. I know you are trying to make a point, but you must know Kerry is full of baloney.

    When he spoke before Jews, Kerry would mention that his grandfather was a Jew named Kohn. When he spoke before Catholics he was a "practicing" Catholic. The one consistent thing about Kerry is that he will always try to please the majority to get elected. Kerry's religion centered on himself and getting elected. He was about as "practicing" a Catholic as the Kennedy clan.

    Nowhere did you say that you thought the civilians who died during WWII deserved it, just like nowhere did I say the civilians who have died during the Iraq war is inconsequential. One disingenuous question deserved another.

    I'm quite aware that the Civil War was fought between the years 1861-1865. I'm also aware that deaths in the Northern prisons of the confederates were due to their gross mistreatment. Or was it a nasty flu bug going around? So because it was 141 years ago I can't use the Civil war to make a point? Then tell any religion hating friends you MIGHT have to stop bringing up the Crusades and the Inquisition.

    If some of these skumbags want to commit suicide, then I say have at it. I would take all the precautons against them having such access, but people who are hellbent on taking their own lives can usually find a way.

    One hundred and 8 deaths is about half the number you originally sited. I'd say that during a two front war that has lasted 5 years, it's 108 too high but hardly worth the equating us with Abu Graib under Saddam a la Ted Kennedy.

    To all the Fidel lovers out there: how many political prisoners have wasted away in his prisons?

    I was for the Catholic Church before I was against it.

    By the way, KfK, Nonfactor is right. I mean all you do is resort to namecalling and personal attacks. It's not like any leftwingers have done that sort of thing, eh nonfactor?

    I didn't say you couldn't use the Civil War to make a point.

    Pat, did you know we still trade with China and North Korea, yet we still had an embargo on Cuba? Why is that? Is Cuba more of a threat than North Korea now? How many political prisoners have wasted away in the prisons of China and N. Korea? And it's okay for KfK to call names because some other people do it too? Not really.

    NEWSFLASH: You can belong to a religion yet still not believe in some political issues a majority of the church believes in. Unless KfK wants to be the person who says what makes a Christian and what doesn't--All Catholics who support the death penalty aren't Catholics; all Protestants who support abortion aren't protestants. You're a Christian if you believe Jesus died for your sins and came back to life. Period.

    Isn't it bad enough that we are discussing politics here?

    Now you want to add the third rail - religion.

    Yikes.

    Sorry for not responding the past couple of days.
    For the record, I loathe the fact we trade with China and North Korea. LOATHE IT. You are correct to point that out. I believe in the embargo of Cuba but China and N.K. are both more of a threat.

    Here's a news flash for you, my friend. To be a Christian does mean to believe in all the tenets if purports to teach authoritatively as being true for all time, whether they be doctrinal or moral issues. There are some moral issues that some liberals would prefer just go away so they relegate them to the " let's agree to disagree " file. I think we know what those issues are. Again, comparing someone who is against abortion but for the death penalty as being on the same moral standing as one who is for abortion but against the death penalty is a hard sell to make. In fact, it's damn near impossible for anyone with the least bit of logic at their ready. The death penalty was sanctioned in the old testament and never changed by Jesus. It was meant to show how precious INNOCENT human life is.

    I'll give you two new testament passages to ponder: The first is when Jesus is before Pilate and Pilate is a little mad that Jesus isn't showing him the proper respect so he says to Jesus " Don't you know I have the authority to take your life and the power to save it?" And Jesus doesn't say, " How dare you use the death penaalty." He says, " You would have no such authority if it weren't given to you from above."

    Later, when he's being crucified with the theives, the good thief says to the bitter thief, " We suffer justly for our crimes but this man has done nothing wrong." Jesus doesn't say " Hey, none of us should be executed."

    Abortion, in some form or another, has been around for a very long time but it was always illegal among civilized nations, just as all murder has been illegal and punished with the greatest of severity.

    " Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do it unto me." Who is more least than the unborn?

    "he death penalty was sanctioned in the old testament and never changed by Jesus. It was meant to show how precious INNOCENT human life is."


    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    Pardon me from disagreeing, but that was not a revocation of the death penalty. To be honest, the death penalty could be abolished tomorrow and I wouldn't care. Just as long as life in prison meant life in prison.

    Anonymous, any compassion in your heart for an unborn baby who had no say in being in it's mother's womb?

    any compassion in your heart for an unborn baby who had no say in being in it's mother's womb?

    I'm sorry, but you are not going to convince me that a group of cells (which is all that exists until 5-8 weeks into a pregnancy) should be treated the same as a viable infant that can be delivered (which is, at minimum, 24 weeks along).

    Let's get rid of all of 'em then, correct.

    That'll teach those pesky little clumps of cells to try and think they can be anything better than they are. There's already too many of 'em coming along anyway.