Quoting the most recent MSNBC TV advertisement regarding The Middle East:

"To understand a story tbis important, you have to be there."

That statement speaks for itself, Kowardly Keith. As per usual, he's hiding under a desk... Leno's in this case.

Krazy Keith doesn't believe in reporting from the field, unless it's a baseball field.

Krazy Keith doesn't believe in reporting from the field, unless it's a baseball field.

Or ground zero. What a koward lawl. Believe it or not not everyone goes to the middle east, and whenever Keith talks about the situation there he has repots from people actually there.

Enlighten us, Nonfactor. Did Keith report from ground zero when it was dangerous (i.e. before the towers fell and everyone who was going to die was dead) or did he go there when the place was a cemetary?

yes, whoever didn't report from ground zero -- or go there, for that matter -- is a coward. more clear thinking from the right.

Sorry but I think KO saw 9/11 as a career opportunity. He was not working for a TV network at the time and no sports organization would have him. What better way to pad your resume and hope to gain attention for your hard-hitting journalistic ways. And it worked.

But has anyone seen him report EVER again from anywhere other than the GOP convention which was held near his home in New York City? He doesn't even do breaking news/weekend coverage anymore when big news stories break. I recall the times he used to come in and anchor extended hurricane coverage, etc. These days they call in anyone other than him and I just have to believe it's because he's refused to do it anymore. Oh yeah, he's a dedicated newsman alright, just so long as he can attend his precious baseball games. They'll call in far less qualified journalistically speaking people like Tucker, Scarborough, even Matthews, but not Olbermann. Face it, he doesn't fly anywhere unless it involves appearances on the Tonight Show or a baseball game.

Sorry but I think KO saw 9/11 as a career opportunity.

no, that was bush and cheney.

And we have not been attacked on our own soil since 9/11. I'd say that Bush and Cheney have protected us here in the US whether you like it or not, and clearly it pisses the liberals off every single day this country goes without a terrorist attack on our soil.

"And we have not been attacked on our own soil since 9/11. I'd say that Bush and Cheney have protected us here in the US whether you like it or not, and clearly it pisses the liberals off every single day this country goes without a terrorist attack on our soil."

it's not the attacks, or lack thereof, which is most important -- it's the constitution, stupid.
something i do not expect an authoritarian to understand.

what your tiny little authoritarian mind will never be able to grasp is succinctly summarized by the following:

"Give me liberty or give me death." -- Patrick Henry
"You won't have any civil liberties if you're dead." -- Senator Pat Roberts (R) Kansas

Brandon writes
"And we have not been attacked on our own soil since 9/11. I'd say that Bush and Cheney have protected us here in the US whether you like it or not, and clearly it pisses the liberals off every single day this country goes without a terrorist attack on our soil."

We didn't have a terrorist attack after the FIRST attempt on the Twin Towers under Clinton UNTIL GW became president. Whatever Clinton did worked and yet, he didn't get 3000 soldiers killed or interfer with any of our rights (tapping phones, tracking money transfers, jailing American citizens without charge or attorney, etc.)

We didn't have a terrorist attack after the FIRST attempt on the Twin Towers under Clinton UNTIL GW became president.

1) USS Cole
2) Oklahmoma City (1995)
3) U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998
4)Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996

I guess I could keep on going, but you get the picture.

Matticus Finch:

I'm sorry, I read Brandon's post and he talked about an attack on OUR soil. Yes, OKLA CITY is on our soil, but that was an American terrorist, not what Brandon (I think) was talking about.

But, to go with your thought, according to the White House and conservatives everywhere, we are attacked DAILY by terrorists in Iraq.

We didn't have DAILY attacks from terrorists until GW was elected.

You kinda made a better point than I was attempting. Thanx.

While his colleagues are getting a story
Olby basks in his own perceived glory
He'll do the Tonight Show
But to Beirut he won't go
Another kook like Connie and Maury

So well said that even OlbyWatchers might understand. Naaaaaaaaaaaah.

\"I think Mr. Bush faces a singular problem best defined, I think, as the absence of effective conservative ideology with the result that he ended up being very extravagant in domestic spending, extremely tolerant of excesses by Congress,\" Buckley says. \"And in respect of foreign policy, incapable of bringing together such forces as apparently were necessary to conclude the Iraq challenge.\"

I'll go with 7.

Olbermann BOMBED! No one laughed, except at the silly little "oddball" clips that every other newscast does anyway. Who's picturing big Brian Stelter frantically typing a post about this...whenever Olbermann acts, it's like Moses parting the waters!

12:33 am is the winning time for the first "Keith Bombed" post! I was actually expecting a couple BEFORE he even came on, but amazing restraint guys.

12:33 -- pays $8.95, $6.80, $2.50

In all seriousness, Olbermann completely tap-danced around the Nazi salute incident. They showed the picture, a few people laughed, and he actually THANKED THE CROWD instead of apologizing. Used the Media Matters/TVNewser/Countdown-driven "Malmedy" stuff to try to justify it.

Ironically, they moved on to talking about the Middle East crisis in a very serious manner. I'm sure any Jewish person watching really took what Olbermann had to say seriously after seeing a picture of him saluting Nazism a few moments beforehand.

Lame, lame, lame! I think I heard the lovely Jamie Pressley doze off during Jay's interview with Keith. He didn't do any Falafel/loofah jokes this time around. Oddly, since the "relief" blog appeared he's cut down on the loofah jokes.

"I'm sure any Jewish person watching really took what Olbermann had to say seriously after seeing a picture of him saluting Nazism a few moments beforehand."

I'm sure any Jewish person watching probably fell off their chair when Krazy Keith claimed Israel was engaged in a "pre-emptive" strike against Hezbollah. Does he really believe that Israel started it?

Crshedd:

Hey ZIPPERHEAD: according to something even your Jacobin mind can appreciate: International Law and Treaty!

A US Ship overseas, even in the Port of Aden, Yemen, IS US SOIL!

A US Embassy in East Africa; even in Tanzania and Kenya, IS US SOIL!

A US Military Base; even in Saudi Arabia, IS US SOIL!

Ergo, FOOL; "US Soil" was repeatedly attacked, during the Clinton Adminstration, but he was too busy getting BJ's from Lewinsky, and trying to find a "nunaced" (i.e. French-like) way to surrender to the Islamistist!

We got attacked on 9/11, BECAUSE of Clinton/Zinni/Clarke et. al; not in spite of them!

I'm not just saying this. This is an honest observation. Keith has wonderful womanly child-bearing hips and he walks like a fashion model.

I posted about the appearance after going through it on Tivo. It was bad enough watching once but to go through slowly for like an hour really, really sucked. It just reminds me what a great job J$ does each night.

DaleinAtlanta:

I knew the name calling would begin. When not sure of your ground, call 'em names and that makes you right.

I suppose the DAILY attacks in Iraq by the White House named terrorists are Clinton's fault also. You would probaly claim that it is Clinton's is also to blame for not finding WMD's in Iraq. Oh, that's right...Santorum found 'em all by himself. Those WMD's Reagan/Bush gave Saddam.

I get really tired of conservatives who whine and cry like 3rd graders--'but they did it first'.

Maybe Clinton did it wrong (although 3000 soldiers and 14,000 civilians didn't die in Iraq). But, can we go back and change it? NO. Can we stop the illegal war and slaughter of innocent civilians NOW? Yes. Quit trying to excuse today's excesses by blaming it on mistakes made years ago. Believe it or not, Clinton has NOT been President for 6 years! Republican's have controlled Congress for 10 years. Tell us all how better off the country is now.

The sale of weapons was to Iran, when was this to Iraq? (late 80's? that would of been 2 years before desert storm)

I should point out that the 14,000 civilians killed in Iraq is just during the first 6 months of 2006...while we are in 'control' of Iraq and several years AFTER 'mission accomplished'.

"It just reminds me what a great job J$ does each night."'
Ah, that's really sweet, Robert, shouting out to Johnny Dollar that way. You guys are too cute.

charliepage:

What sale to Iran? The sale was to Iraq, made by Reagan to continue the fighting agains Iran. And it was more than 2 years before Desert Storm, which is the point. Those WMD's have a shelf life of approximately 3 months. I believe KO called them Weapons of Mild Discomfort. The Pentagon reported that I have more dangerous stuff under my kitchen sink.

Shouldn't saying "Bill" count? (since he was referring to o'reilly) If so, I was only two away. :p

Argh sorry I get confused with Iran and Iraq in the 80's.

500 WMD's were found several weeks or so ago (maybe a month or more by now) in Iraq that were from that time period and were dangerous (I am just stating those were found, not that it was justified for the war and all that) so what do you mean by a shelf life of 3 months?

Crshedd:

Good name for you by the way, because you are about to be CRUSHED, verbally by me, as happens every time I debate little leftists like you!

Name-calling/insulting: it's impossible to namecall & insult someone, when you label them for what they are! Ergo, you are a Zipperhead, ergo, it's not an insult, or namecalling, to point that out! ADVANTAGE: Me!

We were NOT discussing Iraq, we were discussing your patentedly false statements, as I proved, that during the Clinton years, "US Soil" was not attacked; I proved you wrong, you've been CRUSHED again! ADVANTAGE: Me!

Then, you did move to discussing Iraq, as you lost the last argument; typical Leftists; facts don't matter, when confronted with Facts that refute your whining, move the goal posts, bring up Iraq, and cry like a baby about the evil Bush Administration, Haliburton, etc., etc. yada, yada...for moving the goal posts, you've been CRUSHED, again! ADVANTAGE: Me!

blah, blah, blah..."illegal war"...blah, blah, blah!
Give me ONE expample of a "legal" war! ONE! There is NO SUCH THING! I know, you'll say that any war to be legal, HAS to be approved by the UN, or some such other nonsense; totally FALSE!

A War is a WAR is a WAR; there is no such thing as "illegal" or "legal" war. The US Senate gave President Bush authority to use force; he did; so Bush satisifed any US "legality" he needed too!

From the Gulf War, (which WAS approved by the UN by the way, so that's good enough "legality" for you as a little leftist); there was NEVER a peace treaty signed between the US and Iraq, only a Cease Fire! That's it; same situation as today, exists, between the US and North Korea, after 52 years! As in the case of ANY "cease fire", one side may determine, at their leisure, to quit being in a cease fire, in which case, hostilities begin again! The UN passed 17 Resolutions against Iraq, in the intervening 12 yeas between the Gulf War, and the Iraq War; NONE of which Iraq adhereded too; and the US decided to lift the cease fire, and resume hostilites, which it did! End of story, end of discussion, end of bullcrap about "illegal war".
You've been CRUSHED! ADVANTAGE: ME!

"Those WMD's Reagan/Bush gave Saddam." One of the most amazing fallacies ever perpetrated by the Left! I KNOW; I'm a former Marine Corps Intelligence Officer, and I served in the Arabian Gulf area, and had interaction with the Iraqis, from 1988 onwards! Guess what? Regean/Bush Sr., NEVER sold ONE WMD to Iraq, NOT ONE! Complete an utter lie! The Iraqis, thru several front companies, managed to buy some strains of anthrax from some US Govt affiliated Bio/Chem labs; that's the entire genesis of that blatantly false reporting on the part of Leftists; complete and utter falsehoods.
You've been CRUSHED! ADVANTAGE: ME!

"..and slaughter of innocent civilians..." Yes, terrible, horrible thing; any decent human being would agree! But guess what, it could end today, IF the TERRORISTS, in Iraq, would quit killing the civilians! 95% of the civilians killed in Iraq, over the past 3 years, have been killed by their fellow Muslims, and mostly by their fellow countrymen! NOT the US! The civilians that have been killed by the US, 99% of them have been killed by accident, as a horrific and unacceptable part of war, and the others, by the evil less than a fraction of 1% of our military members, who are criminals, and should be prosecuted and punished to the furthers extent of the law!

Bottomline, the US is NOT guilty, the fellow Muslims are, and they could end it today, IF THEY WANTED TOO!

You've been CRUSHED! ADVANTAGE: ME!

"Quit trying to excuse today's excesses by blaming it on mistakes made years ago."

ah, this applies our way too! Ergo, you've been CRUSHED! ADVANTAGE: ME!

"..several years AFTER 'mission accomplished!" Ah, the mission was accomplished; the capture of Bagdad, and the fall of the regieme, was a military masterpiece, which I wont' even try to explain to you, because you couldn't comprehend it! All military historians, around the world, agree with that, already! Post Mission Accomplished, the occupation etc., has not been a textbook example; major mistakes made all around, by Everyone; too much innocent life lost; too many US Military life lost; and the WORST thing in the world now, would be to walk away, and turn Iraq over to the Islamo-jihadis, to turn it into a new Afghanistan, and base to use against the US. Of course, because of your narrow politcal view of things; which is only "let's prove Bush wrong, not matter what the cost", and to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, it's better to withdraw now! NOT because it's the RIGHT thing to do; but because it would prove your Political agenda; that is the most evil reason in the world!

You've been CRUSHED; ADVANTAGE: ME!

"Those WMD's have a shelf life of approximately 3 months. I believe KO called them Weapons of Mild Discomfort. The Pentagon reported that I have more dangerous stuff under my kitchen sink."

EVERY SINGLE Word in the above statement, is categorically, 100% FALSE! The WMD's were not given to Iraq by the US; WMD's do NOT have a "shelf-life" of 3 months; Sarin & VX that the Iraqis used, can have a shelf-life of over 25 years! They do degrade, over time, due to heat, etc., but remain more than capable of killing anyone who comes in contact with them. The US had to incinerate stocks of it's own WMD's, back in the 60's & 70's, that had been on the "shelf" for over 30 years, because they were unsafe!

The Pentagon never reported any such thing!

Tell you what, since you and buddy KO, think they were such "weapons of mass discomfort", I'll lay down a challenge for you!

You and your buddy KO, petition the Pentagon to get one of those expired WMD's, have KO screw it open on his who some night, with you sitting beside him; dip a wash cloth in there, and rub that degraded VX or Sarin on your skin, and then you two Bozo's go ahead, and yuck it up!

I DARE YOU!

You and KO will be in convulsive shock, dying, within 2 minutes, but dont' listen to me; I BEG YOU; get ahold of KO, your buddy, and PLEASE see if you can do it; I'll PAY to watch that!

Fricking Buffoons!

Facts are a dangerous thing to Jacobins like yourself.

Basically, you've just been CRUSHED! ADVANTAGE: ME!

Go find somewhere else to hang out, and post your nonsense!

Earth to NBC:

Maybe 2% of the Tonight Show's audience knows who the hell Miss Odormann is. Maybe 2.1% of the Tonight Show's audience knows who the hell Chris Matthews is. In the future, you may want to book more recognized guests.

The fact remains that Clinton knew who Osama was and could have and should have taken the SOB out and he didn't. We were attacked on American soil repeatedly during his administration. We have not been since anywhere in this world. Eat it.

And Olbermann blew chunks last night on Leno. Eat that too.

Charliepage -

Advantage you. Solid crushing with facts. Well done...

That was a funny appearance, but for all the wrong reasons.

1. Leno was forced to book Olbermann by his bosses. That never gets old! Leno rolls over for executives better than a hooker.

2. Olbermann is introduced to minimal applause, and trots out in a disturbing manner. As one brilliant observer wrote, "Keith has wonderful womanly child-bearing hips and he walks like a fashion model."

3. His suit miserably failed to cover up a pot belly and lard ass. Keith looked like a newly post-partum cross dressing woman. He has been described as "pear shaped with a huge ass" by females he has molested (see the infamous "forthisreliefmuchthanks" blog for details). I believe that assessment is generous.

4. His facial expressions on entrance were just plain wierd. He was grimacing, doing strange things with his lips, raising those bushy eyebrows and overall scaring the audience. He shook Pressley's hand and nerdily bowed while avoiding eye contact. I saw Pressley wipe her hand on her dress following that soppy hand-grab. The disturbing contrast between Pressley and Olby only heightened as Keith bombed.

5. People were confused. You could hear them asking, "why is this guy on this show?" There was no reason to have Olbermann on other than to promote a last-place cable show.

6. His jokes about Al Gore bombed. His attacks on O'Reilly bombed. They also edited the piece. After Olbermann claimed O'Reilly defended the Nazis three times (which nobody in the audience reacted to, hence nobody probably believed), there is a quick edit. As bad as the appearance was, one must wonder what was bad enough to force the immensely lazy Tonight show staff to get out the editing equipment.

7. Keith's constant references to being fired and being a lackluster celebrity draw no laughs. I believe the audience took him seriously.

8. By the end of the piece, Keith has flop sweat on his forehead and lip, Jay looks depressed and annoyed but, like the good executive pleaser he is, gives Keith the praise he so doesn't deserve. Mercifully, the segment ends.

May I be the first to congratulate the NBC executives! They managed to degrade Leno's show, alienate the Tonight show audience, and promote a maniac who salutes like a Nazi for fun. Hard to top that one.

The truly incredible thing is that Dan Abrams really believes Olbermann can be a success. Unlike Kaplan, who realized Olbermann was not worth the effort, Abrams is going all out. I am forced to wonder how the man passed the bar exam.

KfK makes me wish I would have stayed up to see this train wreck.

Johnny Dollar, any chance you have it TiVo'd and could post it at your site?

When discussing embryonic stell cell research (yeah, on The Tonight Show, go figure), did Olbermann actually say that it was okay to use the embryos because they were "not fertilized"?

Thank you Professor Olbermann.

Okay, it was a minor slip, I guess: he meant to say they were never going to be implanted in a woman and therefore can be destroyed.

Still, Olbermann should stick to telling us about Fred Merkle's baserunning ability and not the potential of plenipotentiary stem cells.

What a lame appearance by Olbermann? Much lamer than I expected. I thought it was nice when about 5 people clapped when they showed Keith doing the Nazi salute, something that looked quite natural for him. Total class. He looked nervous and uncomfortable and he went out like a fart in church, talking about how great it would be to destroy human embryos. Now that's funny stuff.

How long until we see a spike in his ratings? Or should I say in O'Reilly's?

Should Unsaved People Be Allowed To Celebrate Christmas?

I'm sure all you Godly folks sitting in this church today know how I feel about unsaved people celebrating Christmas. But do you know how God feels about it? Well, I'm just about to tell you. It drives Him into a blood vessel popping, demon stomping rage.

Dale In Atlanda,

Thanks for shining the light of truth on the lib,
Crshedd. (Crushed!)
I don't expect we will be hearing his lies again.

HAHAHA you have got to be joking. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Well I think Olbermann was trying to joke but failed miserably at it. But it was amusing watching the flop sweat on him as he continued to dig himself in deeper with his failed Nazi salute explanation.

Dale in Atlanta claims,
"Those WMD's Reagan/Bush gave Saddam." One of the most amazing fallacies ever perpetrated by the Left! I KNOW; I'm a former Marine Corps Intelligence Officer, and I served in the Arabian Gulf area, and had interaction with the Iraqis, from 1988 onwards! Guess what? Regean/Bush Sr., NEVER sold ONE WMD to Iraq, NOT ONE! Complete an utter lie! The Iraqis, thru several front companies, managed to buy some strains of anthrax from some US Govt affiliated Bio/Chem labs; that's the entire genesis of that blatantly false reporting on the part of Leftists; complete and utter falsehoods.

Documents released through FOIA contradict Mr. Dale.
by Robert Scheer
US to Hussein: WMD A-OK

[posted online on December 30, 2003]

Sometimes democracy works. Though the wheels of accountability often grind slowly, they also can grind fine, if lubricated by the hard work of free-thinking citizens. The latest example: the release of official documents, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, that detail how the US government under presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush nurtured and supported Saddam Hussein despite his repeated use of chemical weapons.

The work of the National Security Archive, a dogged organization fighting for government transparency, has cast light on the trove of documents that depict in damning detail how the United States, working with US corporations including Bechtel, cynically and secretly allied itself with Hussein's dictatorship. The evidence undermines the unctuous moral superiority with which the current American President, media and public now judge Hussein, a monster the United States actively helped create.

The documents make it clear that were the trial of Hussein to be held by an impartial world court, it would prove an embarrassing two-edged sword for the White House, calling into question the motives of US foreign policy. If there were a complete investigation into those who aided and abetted Hussein's crimes against humanity, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and former Secretary of State George Shultz would probably end up as material witnesses.

It was Rumsfeld and Shultz who told Hussein and his emissaries that US statements generally condemning the use of chemical weapons would not interfere with relations between secular Iraq and the Reagan Administration, which took Iraq off the terrorist-nations list and embraced Hussein as a bulwark against fundamentalist Iran. Ironically, the United States supported Iraq when it possessed and used weapons of mass destruction and invaded it when it didn't.

It was 20 years ago when Shultz dropped in on a State Department meeting between his top aide and a high-ranking Hussein emissary. Back then the Iraqis, who were fighting a war with Iran, were our new best friends in the Mideast. Shultz wanted to make it crystal clear that US criticism of the use of chemical weapons was just pablum for public consumption, meant as a restatement of a "long-standing policy, and not as a pro-Iranian/anti-Iraqi gesture," as State's Lawrence S. Eagleburger told Hussein's emissary. "Our desire and our actions to prevent an Iranian victory and to continue the progress of our bilateral relations remain undiminished," Eagleburger continued, according to the then highly classified transcript of the meeting.

The Shultz/Eagleburger meeting took place between two crucial visits by Rumsfeld, acting as a Reagan emissary, to Hussein to offer unconditional support for the Iraqi leader in his war with Iran. In the first meeting, in December 1983, Rumsfeld told Hussein that the United States would assist in building an oil pipeline from Iraq to Aqaba, Jordan. He made no mention of chemical weapons, even though US intelligence only months earlier had confirmed that Iraq was using such illegal weapons almost daily against Iranians and Kurds.

That Administration's eye was not on the carnage from chemical weapons but rather the profit to be obtained from the flow of oil. In a later meeting with an Iraqi representative, as recorded in the minutes, "Eagleburger explained that because of the participation of Bechtel in the Aqaba pipeline, the Secretary of State [Shultz] is keeping completely isolated from the issue. Iraq should understand that this does not imply a lack of high-level [US government] interest." (Shultz had been chief executive of Bechtel before joining the Reagan Administration and is currently a director of the company, which is signing contracts for work in Iraq as fast as US taxes can be allocated.)

Minutes of that meeting and others in which the United States ignored Hussein's use of banned weapons while extending support to the dictator mock the moral high ground assumed by George W. Bush in defense of his invasion. If, as Bush II says, Hussein acted as a "Hitler" while "gassing his own people," during the 1980s, we were fully aware and implicitly approving, via economic and military aid, of his most nefarious deeds.

Hussein's crimes were committed on our watch, when he was a US ally, and we knowingly looked the other way. But don't take my word for it; check out www.nsarchive.org .

Stick a fork in my no talent arse, I am done.

Non-Christians have celebrated Christmas for a long time and Christians have had no problem with it. With such an acute understanding of conservatives, you must be John Dean. Am I right?

Hell, most of NBC doesn't know who Opie is. At least Matthews gets skewered once or twice a year on SNL. Unless he's doing tedious Tina Fey on the side, he rates a zero on the recognition meter as far as NBC goes.

OOOPS! Forgot about the serially obsequious Jay Leno, but does anyone REALLY laugh at his jokes anymore? Leno pimping for KO will NOT boost him in the 25-54 demo.

How does what Walt posted contradict? I am still looking for that proof that Bush/Reagan GAVE or SOLD WMD's to IRAQ.

Hell, if looking the other way is so embarrasing, then why isn't the entire continent of Europe humiliated over the "Oil for Food" scandal? Why do they look the other way when Hizbollah or Hamas launches attacks into Israel? Does that then mean that France gave missles to Hizbollah?

Mr. Walt:

Thank you for that post, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the thread that Crushed and I were discussing, and absolutely contradicts NOTHING that I said, in destroying CRUSHED's completely false allegations, that Regean/Bush SOLD WMD's to Iraq!

In fact, if anything, your Post, which by the way, I do not dispute at all, confirms my point exactly, there is NOT ONE WORD contained therein that even hints that Regean/Rumsfield/Schultz SUPPLIED/SOLD the WMD's to Iraq, that they were then using on Iran, and the Kurds!

For the record, I was at the tactical and Operational level in the Persian Gulf from '88 onwards; we KNOW that the US did NOT supply the WMD's; no, they came from very willing French, German, Dutch, and Russian (Soviet at that time, actually) suppliers, among others!

What your post does show, unfortunately, was a very unfortuante Strategic decision, on the part of two Adminstrations, to tacitly approve of cooperation with a very evil man (Saddam) for economic and strategic benefits, against an enemy that we reagarded as even worse, the Iranians.

Those of us at the Operational level, surprisingly, were not necessarily onboard with this decision, but it was out of our hands. I head the comments made many times, by Navy and other US military senior officers in the Gulf, saying that "we've allied ourselves with the wrong people, and it's going to come back to haunt us..." (meaning Saddam/the Iraqis)!

I personally, and professionally, always criticized the decision, frankly, because I believe out Intel community, nationally, specifically the CIA, failed to ever understand the Iranian situation, and they over-exaggerated the threat to President's Regean/Bush Sr.; this led to our disasterous alliance with Saddam, caused us to fight a proxy war in Afghanistan against the Soviets, that spawned the birth of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and led directly to the first Gulf War, 9/11, and the Iraq War.

But that, is a totally DIFFERENT issue; as to whether we actually GAVE/SOLD WMD's to Saddam; which is what has been alleged here, and which is patentedly false!

Ergo, you're post, while interesting, and thru the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, is historically interesting (during WWII, we laid down with the Devil, Joe Stalin, to fight the disease itself - Hitler..) and probably wrong; sometimes we have to make tough choices, and we pay for them, later on.

Many of our Strategic decisions, which President's get paid, and elected to make, by the way, ultimately turn out, to have been wrong. That's history, and human nature, and unfortunately, the ramifications cannot be known for decades sometimes, and even the best of intentions turn out wrong.

But I also know, that as much as the Regean/Bush Sr's decisions turned out to be wrong; that the decisions made by the likes of Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton, vis a vis the Iranian and Al Qaeda threats, turned out to be even more disaterous! And, we paid that price on 9/11, and are paying it now with Iran and North Korea.

Harry Truman's decision, 52 years ago, to fire Gen MacArthur, instead of allowing him to finish off N. Korea, is still haunting us 52 years later; as is the Clinton Administration's decision to suck up to the North Korean's, and in effect, GIVE them Nuclear technology, an approach that this current Bush Administration, is coming dangerously close to copying, in an attempt to appease the Europeans in surrendering to the Iranians now!

Bottomline, EVERY Administration, since the formation of Israel, in 1948, has made Strategic decisions, that have backfired decades later, and contributed to the general state of the world today!

But, I know this; since I've lived in the Middle East for great than half my life, and have studied, analyzed, reseached, and interacted with Muslims the whole time: whether Sunni or Shia, there is only ONE thing they understand, or "get"; and that is the total, and overwhelming application of POWER, and complete, and unconditional DEFEAT. Anything less, anything at all, to them, is a Victory, and only spurs them on, to destroy us even more.

Make now mistake, and I know it's difficult for you Leftists to understand this; the Islamists seek NOTHING less, than the forced conversion of the ENTIRE WORLD, and the ENTIRE HUMAN POPULATION to their brand of Salafiyyah Islam; everyone who doesn't convert, DIES! That is their goal, they believe and are willing to die for it, and they are willing to fight for centuries to accomplish it, and to kill whomever, it takes, to accomplish it, as well!

And, the also know, that thanks to the weakness, self-defeatist and self-hate of Leftists in the West, which only coddles and enables them, that they have a good chance of being successful!

This is the thing I never understand about leftists!

They enable, and encourage the very people, Islamists, who the first thing they would do, when the take over, is KILL them, for their lifestyle, beliefes, etc.

If we go by the very general Leftist paradoies of themselves (not by "Conservatives"), but of Leftists, by themselves: supporters of Gay Rights/Marriage, "open"/progressive societies, civil liberties, etc., etc.

Those EXACT things, are completely and totally ANTEMA to the Salafiyyah Jihadis; when they take over, you will be the FIRST people they CRUSH under brick walls, for being gay, liberal, "progressive", etc., etc.!

Talk about assisting in you're own mutual mass societal suicide!

And please, don't buy into the bullshit, that they "respect" you/the French/European style surrender BS that by "respecting" them and their viewpoints thru moral equivalency and relativism, that they respect you in return, and let you live and keep your lifestyles!

For them, it's like being trapped in a swimming pool with a Great White Shark, and you have a 12 inch deep cut on your abdomen! Good luck on that!

Sadly, you suffer from Category Error; I would tell you to look it up, but I'll save you the time: how can you recognize a threat to your very existance, when you categorically refuse to even define it properly thru the use of psychological conflict avoidance syndrome?

Mull that over, put it in your pipe, and smoke it!

Mr. Walt:

Thank you for that post, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the thread that Crushed and I were discussing, and absolutely contradicts NOTHING that I said, in destroying CRUSHED's completely false allegations, that Regean/Bush SOLD WMD's to Iraq!

In fact, if anything, your Post, which by the way, I do not dispute at all, confirms my point exactly, there is NOT ONE WORD contained therein that even hints that Regean/Rumsfield/Schultz SUPPLIED/SOLD the WMD's to Iraq, that they were then using on Iran, and the Kurds!

For the record, I was at the tactical and Operational level in the Persian Gulf from '88 onwards; we KNOW that the US did NOT supply the WMD's; no, they came from very willing French, German, Dutch, and Russian (Soviet at that time, actually) suppliers, among others!

What your post does show, unfortunately, was a very unfortuante Strategic decision, on the part of two Adminstrations, to tacitly approve of cooperation with a very evil man (Saddam) for economic and strategic benefits, against an enemy that we reagarded as even worse, the Iranians.

Those of us at the Operational level, surprisingly, were not necessarily onboard with this decision, but it was out of our hands. I head the comments made many times, by Navy and other US military senior officers in the Gulf, saying that "we've allied ourselves with the wrong people, and it's going to come back to haunt us..." (meaning Saddam/the Iraqis)!

I personally, and professionally, always criticized the decision, frankly, because I believe out Intel community, nationally, specifically the CIA, failed to ever understand the Iranian situation, and they over-exaggerated the threat to President's Regean/Bush Sr.; this led to our disasterous alliance with Saddam, caused us to fight a proxy war in Afghanistan against the Soviets, that spawned the birth of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and led directly to the first Gulf War, 9/11, and the Iraq War.

But that, is a totally DIFFERENT issue; as to whether we actually GAVE/SOLD WMD's to Saddam; which is what has been alleged here, and which is patentedly false!

Ergo, you're post, while interesting, and thru the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, is historically interesting (during WWII, we laid down with the Devil, Joe Stalin, to fight the disease itself - Hitler..) and probably wrong; sometimes we have to make tough choices, and we pay for them, later on.

Many of our Strategic decisions, which President's get paid, and elected to make, by the way, ultimately turn out, to have been wrong. That's history, and human nature, and unfortunately, the ramifications cannot be known for decades sometimes, and even the best of intentions turn out wrong.

But I also know, that as much as the Regean/Bush Sr's decisions turned out to be wrong; that the decisions made by the likes of Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton, vis a vis the Iranian and Al Qaeda threats, turned out to be even more disaterous! And, we paid that price on 9/11, and are paying it now with Iran and North Korea.

Harry Truman's decision, 52 years ago, to fire Gen MacArthur, instead of allowing him to finish off N. Korea, is still haunting us 52 years later; as is the Clinton Administration's decision to suck up to the North Korean's, and in effect, GIVE them Nuclear technology, an approach that this current Bush Administration, is coming dangerously close to copying, in an attempt to appease the Europeans in surrendering to the Iranians now!

Bottomline, EVERY Administration, since the formation of Israel, in 1948, has made Strategic decisions, that have backfired decades later, and contributed to the general state of the world today!

But, I know this; since I've lived in the Middle East for great than half my life, and have studied, analyzed, reseached, and interacted with Muslims the whole time: whether Sunni or Shia, there is only ONE thing they understand, or "get"; and that is the total, and overwhelming application of POWER, and complete, and unconditional DEFEAT. Anything less, anything at all, to them, is a Victory, and only spurs them on, to destroy us even more.

Make now mistake, and I know it's difficult for you Leftists to understand this; the Islamists seek NOTHING less, than the forced conversion of the ENTIRE WORLD, and the ENTIRE HUMAN POPULATION to their brand of Salafiyyah Islam; everyone who doesn't convert, DIES! That is their goal, they believe and are willing to die for it, and they are willing to fight for centuries to accomplish it, and to kill whomever, it takes, to accomplish it, as well!

And, the also know, that thanks to the weakness, self-defeatist and self-hate of Leftists in the West, which only coddles and enables them, that they have a good chance of being successful!

This is the thing I never understand about leftists!

They enable, and encourage the very people, Islamists, who the first thing they would do, when the take over, is KILL them, for their lifestyle, beliefes, etc.

If we go by the very general Leftist paradoies of themselves (not by "Conservatives"), but of Leftists, by themselves: supporters of Gay Rights/Marriage, "open"/progressive societies, civil liberties, etc., etc.

Those EXACT things, are completely and totally ANTEMA to the Salafiyyah Jihadis; when they take over, you will be the FIRST people they CRUSH under brick walls, for being gay, liberal, "progressive", etc., etc.!

Talk about assisting in you're own mutual mass societal suicide!

And please, don't buy into the bullshit, that they "respect" you/the French/European style surrender BS that by "respecting" them and their viewpoints thru moral equivalency and relativism, that they respect you in return, and let you live and keep your lifestyles!

For them, it's like being trapped in a swimming pool with a Great White Shark, and you have a 12 inch deep cut on your abdomen! Good luck on that!

Sadly, you suffer from Category Error; I would tell you to look it up, but I'll save you the time: how can you recognize a threat to your very existance, when you categorically refuse to even define it properly thru the use of psychological conflict avoidance syndrome?

Mull that over, put it in your pipe, and smoke it!

Sorry, many spelling mistakes in the above; I HATE typing in these small boxes; and I'm in a hurry to take the family swimming; more than happy to continue the debate, but have to take the kids swimming; I'll be back.

Despite the misspellings; you'll get the gist...

Sorry, many spelling mistakes in the above; I HATE typing in these small boxes; and I'm in a hurry to take the family swimming; more than happy to continue the debate, but have to take the kids swimming; I'll be back.

Despite the misspellings; you'll get the gist...

I think I'm starting to get this Loon thing.

VH-1 is doing an 80's retro weekend soon.

Jay has an has-been washed up 80's sportscaster/newscaster(lol)

The loons being conditioned like that Pavlo Dog, responed by bringing up Reagan/Bush/Rumsfeld. Hey! you forgot Dick Cheney. Hey Loons don't forget to bring up the old story about George Bush SR. flying over to Iraq in the single engine Cessna to broker the deal. I use to love that one. Hey and don't forget Olie North, you left him out.

Well, I write for findlaw something Johnny Dollar will never get to do.

When is Bill going to the middle east?

Thanks to DaleinAtlanta's posts. Very interesting and one of the reasons I read these threads. Gotta wade thru all the lefty trolls, but at least this site allows free discussions, unlike the DU and other lefty blogs.

Or they post a meaningless cartoon. I think they identify with cartoons, explains why they like Olbermann so much, he speaks in a language they can understand.

Edited to add: At least O'Reilly has been in war zones, that's something that Olbermann has never done unless you consider the Yankees vs. the Red Sox a "warzone".

Sounds like I missed a real winner last night when KO appeared on Jay Leno. Was going to record it but spaced it and collapsed in bed earlier than usual after a hard day of work. It will be interesting to see how KO does on a competing network when he goes on with Craig Ferguson Friday night. I'll be curious if he changes his approach after reading some of the scathing commentary of his looks and actions from last night.

Hello Dale, it's Walt.

Here's another item I need you to explain for me. It's an excerpt from Washington Post 12/30/02 entitled "U.S. Had Key Role In Iraq Buildup (We Sold Saddam Wmd's)" By Michael Dobbs, Washington Post Staff Writer

A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.

There's a lot more out there that seems to indicate
that both admins of Reagan & Bush 41 "sold" WMDs to Iraq.

Someone wrote:

"I HATE typing in these small boxes"

Dude, try typing into notepad or some text editor and then cut/paste into the box!!!

Walt:

Well, you're quoting the Washington Post, one of the most anti-American screeds in history, to go along with the NY Times, LA Times, etc., but I'll play along for a second...

"..had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague."

It's a whine that the Left has been whinging about since the Gulf War, as a reason for defeatist, anti-Republican propaganga; "Bush sold Iraq WMD's..." ad naseum, ad naseum, and total BS....

I addressed it in my first post; allegations, with NO Proof, as the just about everything else.

But, to elucidate, once again; Iraqi Civilian, and Military organizations, using Front companies in Jordan, Egypt, and EUROPE, during the 80's, purchased some strains of Anthrax from American Companies and Labs, some connected to the US Government, and some not.

As Iraqi Civilian companies, they also purchased so-called "dual" use chemicals, passing them off as Pesticides and Agricultural chemicals, which of course what they are SUPPOSED to be used for, but they can be turned to other, more nefarious uses as well!

I actually don't know about Bubonic Plague, but I seriously doubt that charge; about the only people in the US that have access to that, is the CDC down here in Atlanta, and they don't sell stuff like that, to anyone that I'm aware of!

So, again, I make my point; front companies, buying dual use chemicals, dishonestly, and openly and LEGALLY, due to the US's own inability to monitor everything in it's own economy, though disturbing from a post 9/11 mindset, was certainly par for the course of the era you are discussing, and it is certainly Again, a FAR, FAR cry, from either the Regean and/or Bush SR. Administration's DELIBERATELY, and PRE-MEDITATIVELY supplying WMD'S to Saddam Hussein, to gas his own people! If you cannot see that, then it's no use continuing the discussion!

Besides, you cannot have it both ways! Bill Clinton, purposefully, and pre-meditatively, signed Presidential Execuitve Orders, that VILOLATED US Law, in order to export CLASSIFIED US Military and Space Technology to China, via his Business Colleagues at Loral Areospace, so that they could benefit economically.

Assessments done by the US Intel Community, delivered to Bill Clinton, while he was still President, estimated that those shipments of specific types of computers/parts, and other material, gave China a 20 YEAR Jump in their ICBM program!

Now, imagine that? Why would any SANE individual, especially the President of the United States, do that?

And, by the way, the stuff on Clinton, is Historical, undisputed FACT; unlike your continued attempts to say the same thing about Regean/Bush Sr. vis a vis the WMD's with Saddam.

So, in otherwords, and I happy that export laws, and export controls, were so lax, during Regean/Bush Sr. eras, that the Iraqis were able to do that stuff?

Hell NO!

Does that mean that Bush Sr./Regean were GUILTY of KNOWINGLY supplying Saddam with WMD's? Categorically NO!

Does it mean that Clinton was guilty of KNOWINGLY supplying China with Classified US Technology?

Categorically YES?

You tell me which one is worse?

Now, I know, in the moral equivalency and relativism, in which Leftists live, Regean/Bush ARE Guilty, because they are Republicans, and Clinton is innocent, because he's a Democrat.

Sorry, the REAL world doesn't buy it, nor should they!

Someone, in the UNited State MIGHT have been guilty of selling some WMD "related" stuff, to Iraq, UNKNOWINGLY, during Regean/Bush Sr.; but that's a far cry, and certainly not indicative of a US Government Policy to Purposefully supply WMD's to Saddam; which once again, DID NOT HAPPEN!

....and, I might add....

I'm curious how you all on the Left, continue to accuse Regean/Bush sold WMD's to Saddam, which we know by the way he had, and used; there's tens of thousands of dead Kurds and Iranians to prove that; and yet you go somehow thru the mental gymnastics, to deny he had WMD's and WMD programs, since we invaded in 2003!

And you're pointing out that he did, in fact, import dual use chemicals etc., and yet, somehow, when literally dozens of the those very same "dual-use" chemicals/Pesticides/Agrigultural "products" were found buried undergound in multiple, hidden sites and bunkers, by US Army and Marines, during the march to Baghdad in 2003, they were immedicaly dismissed by the Leftist press as being ONLY Agricultural and Pesticide chemicals, and NOT WMD's!

Now who the hell, takes the time, to take hundreds of barrels of cyclosarins (basic chemical used in the manufacturing of Sarin and VX gas), that CAN be used for Pesticides and Agricultural uses, and Bury them in Hidden bunkers, dozens of feet underground, and completely covered over, IF IT'S FOR A COMPLETELY BENIGN PURPOSE?

Okay, you've tested my "open-mind", and I've responded Twice!

Now, I'm going to test yours!

Read this Link, and then tell me what you think!

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3453

Keep in mind, you've posted two articles, that are hitting all around the mark, but not directly proving your point; I'm PROVING my Points, via this expert analysis.

I'm interested to see your reaction.

Democrat chickenhawk series:Hillary R. Clinton military service NONE.Quote on Terror.

"Every nation has to either be with us, or against us. Those who harbor terrorists, or who finance them, are going to pay a price."

Senator Hillary Clinton (Democrat, New York)
September 13, 2001
http://www.wavsource.com/news/20010911a

Democrat Chickenhawk series: William J. Clinton.Military service advisor to communist russia as US conscientious objector. * years commander and cheat.Quote:

"In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now -- a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.

If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."

President Clinton
Address to Joint Chiefs of Staff and Pentagon staff
February 17, 1998
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/02/17/transcripts/clinton.iraq/

Democrat Chickenhawk series: John F. Kerry.Miltary service: 3 months(approx.) 3 purple hearts. NO,NONE nights in hospital for purple heart "injuries". Negotiated un-solicited with NV in Paris to undermine the US.
Quote:

"It is the duty of any president, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threat. Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for 12 years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly, I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so."

Senator John Kerry (Democrat, Massachusetts)
March 17, 2003
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030331&s=lizza033103

Democrat Chickenhawk series: John F. Kerry.Miltary service: 3 months(approx.) 3 purple hearts. NO,NONE nights in hospital for purple heart "injuries". Negotiated un-solicited with NV in Paris to undermine the US.
Quote:

Those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe today that we are not safer with his capture, don't have the judgment to be President, or the credibility to be elected President.

No one can doubt or should doubt that we are safer -- and Iraq is better -- because Saddam Hussein is now behind bars."

Senator John Kerry (Democrat, Massachusetts)
Speech at Drake University in Iowa
December 16, 2003
http://www.jsonline.com/news/gen/dec03/193182.asp?format=print

Democrat Chickenhawk Series: John Edwards. Military service:NONE. Disservice to country: Destroyed Drs careers as trial lawyer. Caused NC to lead the country in un-necessary C-sections.

Quote:

John Edwards, while voting YES to the Resolution authorizing US military force against Iraq:
"Others argue that if even our allies support us, we should not support this resolution because confronting Iraq now would undermine the long-term fight against terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. Yet, I believe that this is not an either-or choice. Our national security requires us to do both, and we can."

Senator John Edwards (Democrat, North Carolina)
US Senate floor statement: "Authorization of the Use of
United States Armed Forces Against Iraq"
October 10, 2002
http://edwards.senate.gov/statements/20021010_iraq.html

Democrat chickenshit series: Ted "killer" Kennedy. Miltary service:NONE. Dis-service to country: Killed sweet young lady named Mary Jo Kopechne while drunk driving. Countless other ruinous endeavors.

Quote:

There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed."

Senator Edward Kennedy (Democrat, Massachusetts)
Speech at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies
September 27, 2002
http://kennedy.senate.gov/~kennedy/statements/02/09/2002927718.html

Democrat chickenhawk series:Hillary R. Clinton military service NONE. Dis-service to country: Lead the impeachment of Rich Nixon. Incredible stock market gains. Vince Foster suicide. Whitewater. Rose law firm billing records. Hill-care attempt at hijacking health care to convert to socialized(failed)medicine.

Quote:"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members...

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

Senator Hillary Clinton (Democrat, New York)
Addressing the US Senate
October 10, 2002

Congressional Chickenshit Series:
Statement: Dear Mr. President: ... We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraq sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

Sincerely,

Carl Levin, Joe Lieberman, Frank R. Lautenberg, Dick Lugar, Kit Bond, Jon Kyl, Chris Dodd, John McCain, Kay Bailey Hutchison, Alfonse D'Amato, Bob Kerrey, Pete V. Domenici, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Mikulski, Thomas Daschle, John Breaux, Tim Johnson, Daniel K. Inouye, Arlen Specter, James Inhofe, Strom Thurmond, Mary L. Landrieu, Wendell Ford, John Kerry, Chuck Grassley, Jesse Helms, Rick Santorum.

Letter to President Clinton
Signed by Senators Tom Daschle, John Kerry and others
October 9, 1998
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Letters,%20reports%20and%20statements/levin-10-9-98.html

Scooter:

Ah, man, the Democratic Chickenhawk series; that is toooooooooooo beyoutiful! Keep that up! That is just plain awesome...

PS: I do think you are mistaken on one point; I do believe that Ted "killer" Kennedy did serve a couple of years in the US Army...; I think he did, but you can check his bio somewhere, I'm sure...

Chickenshit Cocksucker Al Gore playing on our fears:

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.

We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

Al Gore, Former Clinton Vice-President
Speech to San Francisco Commonwealth Club
September 23, 2002

Thanks for possible correction. I just assumed he didn't serve. He must not have served Honorably or we would know of it.

Well, I'm not 100% sure, and I'm too lazy to look it up now; but I think I read it somewhere, sometime.

Regardless, you're KILLING me with this; outstanding!!!

HAH!

Deomocrap Chickenshit Series: Nancy Pelosi.Military Service:NONE. Dis-service to country: Siding with the enemies of the US. Giving Aid and Comfort to Islamic Extremists through statements intended to de-moralize US troops. Moonbat.Traitor.

Quote: As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi (Democrat, California)
Statement on US Led Military Strike Against Iraq
December 16, 1998
http://www.house.gov/pelosi/priraq1.htm

TY DaleinAtlanta. Facts always stick a thumb in the eye of Pres. Bush detractors.On this site.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED !!!!!!!!!

Democrat Chickenhawk Series: Robert "sheet" Byrd. Grand Kleagle in Ku Klux Klan. Racist, segregationist,DEMOCRAT. Used the words "white nigger" in interview Fox News, to explain some whites were trash too.OOPS openly racist opinion. Suspected in W. Virginia lynchings.

Quote: "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability."

Robert C. Byrd
Former Ku Klux Klan recruiter, currently a US Senator (Democrat, West Virginia)
Addressing the US Senate
October 3, 2002

United Nations Useless Fool Series: Hans Blix.Weapons Inspector. Once found corn on a cob.

Quote: The nerve agent VX is one of the most toxic ever developed.

13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 tonnes."

Dr. Hans Blix, Chief UN Weapons Inspector
Addressing the UN Security Council
January 27, 2003
http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocusnewsiraq

United Nations Useless Fool Series: Hans Blix.Weapons Inspector. Once found corn on a cob.

Quote: The recent inspection find in the private home of a scientist of a box of some 3,000 pages of documents, much of it relating to the laser enrichment of uranium support a concern that has long existed that documents might be distributed to the homes of private individuals. ...we cannot help but think that the case might not be isolated and that such placements of documents is deliberate to make discovery difficult and to seek to shield documents by placing them in private homes."

Dr. Hans Blix, Chief UN Weapons Inspector
Addressing the UN Security Council
January 27, 2003

Scooter: man, you've got to stop, I'm laughing so hard, I'm about to pee my pants!

This is unfair; you're hiting them with FACTS, and they're own hypocritical words!

That's not FAIR! HAH!

You're killing me, I'm copying this WHOLE page tomorrow, and forwarding it around my office, and out to about 3 dozen friends in the senior Military Officer Corps and Intel Community!

Cheers man!

You da' man!

Men of Honor Series: George H.W. Bush. Served in Air Force Reserve for the Great State of Texas. Fighter Pilot. Two term President of the United States of America.Man of the people.Defender of Democracy.Commander in Chief during the Islamic attack of September 11th. Responded by invading 2 countries and deposing there governments because of ties to September 11th attack on US of A. His Churchill-esque manner has garnered him fear and respect from friends and enemies alike.

Quote: Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

President Bush
State of the Union address
January 28, 2003

Men of Honor Series: George H.W. Bush. Served in Air Force Reserve for the Great State of Texas. Fighter Pilot. Two term President of the United States of America.Man of the people.Defender of Democracy.Commander in Chief during the Islamic attack of September 11th. Responded by invading 2 countries and deposing there governments because of ties to September 11th attack on US of A. His Churchill-esque manner has garnered him fear and respect from friends and enemies alike.

Quote: Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

President Bush
State of the Union address
January 28, 2003

Dale In Atlanta;
You have jumped to the conclusion that I'm a liberal. I am not and your Clinton comments are right on the money. I expected you to make a remark about the Washington Post. That's fine, but the issue concerns State Dept documents, National Security Decision Directives, Commerce Dept docs, etc. Check out the National Security Archives website. This is not a liberal/conservative issue.
I find it very hard to believe that Reagan and VP Bush were not aware that US companies were providing Saddam with the material/weapons in question.
I appreciate your detailed responses to my postings.

So what if our gov't did sell or allowed the sales of weapons to Saddam? That was then and our government hopefully was trying to help bad guys kill other bad guys. I don't nave a problem with that. It was probably the right thing at the time. But if the point of bringing this up is: the horrible US armed a madman so its our fault. It doesn't wash--because 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would it mean we could never do or say anything about WMDs because we had used or supplied them in the past? No,no,no.Just MHO.

Gone Wobbly Since Series:
Congressman Harold Ford (Democrat, Tennessee)
Senator Bob Graham (Democrat, Florida)
Congressman Tom Lantos (Democrat, California)
Signed Letter: Dear Mr. President:

The events of September 11 have highlighted the vulnerability of the United States to determined terrorists. As we work to clean up Afghanistan and destroy al Qaeda, it is imperative that we plan to eliminate the threat from Iraq.

This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs.

The threat from Iraq is real, and it cannot be permanently contained. For as long as Saddam Hussein is in power in Baghdad, he will seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. We have no doubt that these deadly weapons are intended for use against the United States and its allies. Consequently, we believe we must directly confront Saddam, sooner rather than later.

Mr. President, all indications are that in the interest of our own national security, Saddam Hussein must be removed from power."

Democrat Chickenhawk Series: Henry Waxman. Military service:Unknown. Dis-service to country: Liberal California moonbat-ist.

Quote: He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts."

Congressman Henry Waxman (Democrat, California)
Addressing the US Congress
October 10, 2002

Dale,

Thanks for the "American Thinker" article. Lots of info that I was not aware of. I recommend all the other "posters" to check it out.
Meanwhile, here's another excerpt (from Robt. Novak, no less!!)

In a September 25, 2002, article entitled “Following Iraq’s Bioweapons Trail,” author Robert Novak wrote,

An eight-year-old Senate report confirms that disease-producing and poisonous materials were exported, under U.S. government license, to Iraq from 1985 to 1988 during the Iran-Iraq war. Furthermore, the report adds, the American-exported materials were identical to microorganisms destroyed by United Nations inspectors after the Gulf War. The shipments were approved despite allegations that Saddam used biological weapons against Kurdish rebels and (according to the current official U.S. position) initiated war with Iran.

Why did Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush enter into a close relationship with Saddam Hussein? Why did they furnish him with weapons of mass destruction? It’s impossible to know for sure but the most likely reason was that U.S. officials intended for Saddam to use such weapons against the Iranian people during the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s.

One thing i think we all can safely agree on is that scoter could be the dumbest person on the planet.

One thing i think we all can safely agree on is that scooter could be the dumbest person on the planet.

Democrat Chickenhawk Series: William J. Clinton.Military service advisor to communist russia as US conscientious objector. 8 years commander and cheat.

Quote: "Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors; he will make war on his own people. And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them."

President Clinton
National Address from the Oval Office
December 16, 1998

I would take out the probably. He is the stupidest person on this blog.

I've seen a few people who are dumber. not many granted

THATS IT. I DONT HAVE TO TAKE THESE ATTACKS.MR. COX I WANT THIS mans IP ADDRESS. OR I WILL SUE EVERYBODY.WAHHH,WAHHH,wahh. SOUND FAMILIAR ANONYMOUS.

No Anonymous your still the dumbest and stupidist on this planet or any other. And a whiner too.

Anon dont make me, make you CRY.

Roll Call on Use of Force in Iraq the Senate:

US Senators who voted YES to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq:

Allard, Wayne (R-CO)
Allen, George (R-VA)
Baucus, Max (D-MT)
Bayh, Evan (D-IN)
Bennett, Robert (R-UT)
Biden, Joseph (D-DE)
Bond, Christopher (R-MO)
Breaux, John (D-LA)
Brownback, Sam (R-KS)
Bunning, Jim (R-KY)
Burns, Conrad (R-MT)
Campbell, Ben (R-CO)
Cantwell, Maria (D-WA)
Carnahan, Jean (D-MO)
Carper, Thomas (D-DE)
Cleland, Max (D-GA)
Clinton, Hillary (D-NY)
Cochran, Thad (R-MS)
Collins, Susan (R-ME)
Craig, Larry (R-ID)
Crapo, Michael (R-ID)
Daschle, Tom (D-SD)
DeWine, Mike (R-OH)
Dodd, Christopher (D-CT)
Domenici, Pete (R-NM)
Dorgan, Byron (D-ND)
Edwards, John (D-NC)
Ensign, John (R-NV)
Enzi, Michael (R-WY)
Feinstein, Dianne (D-CA)
Fitzgerald, Peter (R-IL)
Frist, Bill (R-TN)
Gramm, Phil (R-TX)
Grassley, Chuck (R-IA)
Gregg, Judd (R-NH)
Hagel, Chuck (R-NE)
Harkin, Tom (D-IA)
Hatch, Orrin (R-UT)
Helms, Jesse (R-NC)
Hollings, Ernest (D-SC)
Hutchinson, Tim (R-AR)
Hutchison, Kay (R-TX)
Inhofe, James (R-OK)
Johnson, Tim (D-SD)
Kerry, John (D-MA)
Kohl, Herb (D-WI)
Kyl, Jon (R-AZ)
Landrieu, Mary (D-LA)
Lieberman, Joseph (D-CT)
Lincoln, Blanche (D-AR)
Lott, Trent (R-MS)
Lugar, Richard (R-IN)
McCain, John (R-AZ)
McConnell, Mitch (R-KY)
Miller, Zell (D-GA)
Murkowski, Lisa (R-AK)
Nelson, Bill (D-FL)
Nelson, Ben (D-NE)
Nickles, Don (R-OK)
Reid, Harry (D-NV)
Roberts, Pat (R-KS)
Rockefeller, John (D-WV)
Santorum, Rick (R-PA)
Schumer, Charles (D-NY)
Sessions, Jeff (R-AL)
Shelby, Richard (R-AL)
Smith, Robert (R-NH)
Smith, Gordon (R-OR)
Snowe, Olympia (R-ME)
Specter, Arlen (R-PA)
Stevens, Ted (R-AK)
Thomas, Craig (R-WY)
Thompson, Fred (R-TN)
Thurmond, Strom (R-SC)
Torricelli, Robert (D-NJ)
Voinovich, George (R-OH)
Warner, John (R-VA)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roll Call Authorizing US Congressional Representatives who voted YES to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq:

Ackerman
Aderholt
Akin
Andrews
Armey
Bachus
Baker
Ballenger
Barcia
Barr
Bartlett
Barton
Bass
Bentsen
Bereuter
Berkley
Berman
Berry
Biggert
Bilirakis
Bishop
Blagojevich
Blunt
Boehlert
Boehner
Bonilla
Bono
Boozman
Borski
Boswell
Boucher
Boyd
Brady (TX)
Brown (SC)
Bryant
Burr
Burton
Buyer
Callahan
Calvert
Camp
Cannon
Cantor
Capito
Carson (OK)
Castle
Chabot
Chambliss
Clement
Coble
Collins
Combest
Cooksey
Cox
Cramer
Crane
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cubin
Culberson
Cunningham
Davis (FL)
Davis, Jo Ann
Davis, Tom
Deal
DeLay
DeMint
Deutsch
Diaz-Balart
Dicks
Dooley
Doolittle
Dreier
Dunn
Edwards
Ehlers
Ehrlich
Emerson
Engel
English
Etheridge
Everett
Ferguson
Flake
Fletcher
Foley
Forbes
Ford
Fossella
Frelinghuysen
Frost
Gallegly
Ganske
Gekas
Gephardt
Gibbons
Gilchrest
Gillmor
Gilman
Goode
Goodlatte
Gordon
Goss
Graham
Granger
Graves
Green (TX)
Green (WI)
Greenwood
Grucci
Gutknecht
Hall (TX)
Hansen
Harman
Hart
Hastert
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Herger
Hill
Hilleary
Hobson
Hoeffel
Hoekstra
Holden
Horn
Hoyer
Hulshof
Hunter
Hyde
Isakson
Israel
Issa
Istook
Jefferson
Jenkins
John
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Kanjorski
Keller
Kelly
Kennedy (MN)
Kennedy (RI)
Kerns
Kind (WI)
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Knollenberg
Kolbe
LaHood
Lampson
Lantos
Latham
LaTourette
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Linder
LoBiondo
Lowey
Lucas (KY)
Lucas (OK)
Luther
Lynch
Maloney (NY)
Manzullo
Markey
Mascara
Matheson
McCarthy (NY)
McCrery
McHugh
McInnis
McIntyre
McKeon
McNulty
Meehan
Mica
Miller, Dan
Miller, Gary
Miller, Jeff
Moore
Moran (KS)
Murtha
Myrick
Nethercutt
Ney
Northup
Norwood
Nussle
Osborne
Ose
Otter
Oxley
Pascrell
Pence
Peterson (MN)
Peterson (PA)
Petri
Phelps
Pickering
Pitts
Platts
Pombo
Pomeroy
Portman
Pryce (OH)
Putnam
Quinn
Radanovich
Ramstad
Regula
Rehberg
Reynolds
Riley
Roemer
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Ross
Rothman
Royce
Ryan (WI)
Ryun (KS)
Sandlin
Saxton
Schaffer
Schiff
Schrock
Sensenbrenner
Sessions
Shadegg
Shaw
Shays
Sherman
Sherwood
Shimkus
Shows
Shuster
Simmons
Simpson
Skeen
Skelton
Smith (MI)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Souder
Spratt
Stearns
Stenholm
Sullivan
Sununu
Sweeney
Tancredo
Tanner
Tauscher
Tauzin
Taylor (MS)
Taylor (NC)
Terry
Thomas
Thornberry
Thune
Thurman
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Toomey
Turner
Upton
Vitter
Walden
Walsh
Wamp
Watkins (OK)
Watts (OK)
Waxman
Weiner
Weldon (FL)
Weldon (PA)
Weller
Wexler
Whitfield
Wicker
Wilson (NM)
Wilson (SC)
Wolf
Wynn
Young (AK)
Young (FL)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Use of Force House of Reps:

Roll Call Authorizing US Congressional Representatives who voted YES to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq:

Ackerman
Aderholt
Akin
Andrews
Armey
Bachus
Baker
Ballenger
Barcia
Barr
Bartlett
Barton
Bass
Bentsen
Bereuter
Berkley
Berman
Berry
Biggert
Bilirakis
Bishop
Blagojevich
Blunt
Boehlert
Boehner
Bonilla
Bono
Boozman
Borski
Boswell
Boucher
Boyd
Brady (TX)
Brown (SC)
Bryant
Burr
Burton
Buyer
Callahan
Calvert
Camp
Cannon
Cantor
Capito
Carson (OK)
Castle
Chabot
Chambliss
Clement
Coble
Collins
Combest
Cooksey
Cox
Cramer
Crane
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cubin
Culberson
Cunningham
Davis (FL)
Davis, Jo Ann
Davis, Tom
Deal
DeLay
DeMint
Deutsch
Diaz-Balart
Dicks
Dooley
Doolittle
Dreier
Dunn
Edwards
Ehlers
Ehrlich
Emerson
Engel
English
Etheridge
Everett
Ferguson
Flake
Fletcher
Foley
Forbes
Ford
Fossella
Frelinghuysen
Frost
Gallegly
Ganske
Gekas
Gephardt
Gibbons
Gilchrest
Gillmor
Gilman
Goode
Goodlatte
Gordon
Goss
Graham
Granger
Graves
Green (TX)
Green (WI)
Greenwood
Grucci
Gutknecht
Hall (TX)
Hansen
Harman
Hart
Hastert
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Herger
Hill
Hilleary
Hobson
Hoeffel
Hoekstra
Holden
Horn
Hoyer
Hulshof
Hunter
Hyde
Isakson
Israel
Issa
Istook
Jefferson
Jenkins
John
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Kanjorski
Keller
Kelly
Kennedy (MN)
Kennedy (RI)
Kerns
Kind (WI)
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Knollenberg
Kolbe
LaHood
Lampson
Lantos
Latham
LaTourette
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Linder
LoBiondo
Lowey
Lucas (KY)
Lucas (OK)
Luther
Lynch
Maloney (NY)
Manzullo
Markey
Mascara
Matheson
McCarthy (NY)
McCrery
McHugh
McInnis
McIntyre
McKeon
McNulty
Meehan
Mica
Miller, Dan
Miller, Gary
Miller, Jeff
Moore
Moran (KS)
Murtha
Myrick
Nethercutt
Ney
Northup
Norwood
Nussle
Osborne
Ose
Otter
Oxley
Pascrell
Pence
Peterson (MN)
Peterson (PA)
Petri
Phelps
Pickering
Pitts
Platts
Pombo
Pomeroy
Portman
Pryce (OH)
Putnam
Quinn
Radanovich
Ramstad
Regula
Rehberg
Reynolds
Riley
Roemer
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Ross
Rothman
Royce
Ryan (WI)
Ryun (KS)
Sandlin
Saxton
Schaffer
Schiff
Schrock
Sensenbrenner
Sessions
Shadegg
Shaw
Shays
Sherman
Sherwood
Shimkus
Shows
Shuster
Simmons
Simpson
Skeen
Skelton
Smith (MI)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Souder
Spratt
Stearns
Stenholm
Sullivan
Sununu
Sweeney
Tancredo
Tanner
Tauscher
Tauzin
Taylor (MS)
Taylor (NC)
Terry
Thomas
Thornberry
Thune
Thurman
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Toomey
Turner
Upton
Vitter
Walden
Walsh
Wamp
Watkins (OK)
Watts (OK)
Waxman
Weiner
Weldon (FL)
Weldon (PA)
Weller
Wexler
Whitfield
Wicker
Wilson (NM)
Wilson (SC)
Wolf
Wynn
Young (AK)
Young (FL)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Use of Force House of Reps:

Final Tally Vote Authority for Bush to use force.Strong bi-partisan approval.

CNN
October 10, 2002

House gives Bush authority for war with Iraq

The House voted 296-133 to give Bush the authority to use U.S. military force to make Iraq comply with U.N. resolutions requiring it to give up weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/iraq.us
CNN
October 11, 2002

Senate approves Iraq war resolution

In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq

Final Tally Vote Authority for Bush to use force.Strong bi-partisan approval.

CNN
October 10, 2002

House gives Bush authority for war with Iraq

The House voted 296-133 to give Bush the authority to use U.S. military force to make Iraq comply with U.N. resolutions requiring it to give up weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/iraq.us
CNN
October 11, 2002

Senate approves Iraq war resolution

In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq

Democrat Chickenhawk series: John F. Kerry.Miltary service: 3 months(approx.) 3 purple hearts. NO,NONE nights in hospital for purple heart "injuries". Negotiated un-solicited with NV in Paris to undermine the US. On camera testimony admitting war crimes and atrocities.

Quote: Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing."

Senator John Kerry (Democrat, Massachusetts)
Speech at Georgetown University
January 23, 2003

Walt: Hello, you are correct, and I did jump to conclusions, and I assumed, as well; and you know what, I apologize. Not now, because you've stated that you are not from the Left, but in general, even if you were from the Left.

I want to rachet it back a notch; there is some really nasty stuff, really nasty stuff going on over at www.seixon.com right now; and boy, the last thing we need is have more of that crap spoiling ANY chance we have to interact/exchange information/TALK!

And, I recognize my part and guilt in it, by just starting out confrontational, insulting, and in-your-face; the political dialoge is poisoned in this country, and it's no good for anyone.

I guess the never-ceasing string of attacks, by both sides, but always started by the "other guy", gets everyone so riled up, that there is no civil dialogue now; and so everyone, including me, starts out defensive, and pissed off, and insulting, to prove their point(s).

I won't blame it on O'Reilly, or H&C, or Talk Radio, or the "left"; my Momma raised me better, I KNOW better; it's incumbent upon me to reign in the BS, to effectively get my point across.

That said, Scooter's posts ARE funny, but I'll pull in my horns, and try to stay professional.

Walt, as to the below:

Thanks for the "American Thinker" article. Lots of info that I was not aware of. I recommend all the other "posters" to check it out.

THANKS FOR READING IT WITH AN OPEN MIND, AND IT'S JUST PART OF A COMPLEX PUZZLE, DATING BACK 30 YEARS IN THAT REGION, WITH FAULT LYING WITH ALL ADMINISTRATIONS, UNFORTUNATELY!

Meanwhile, here's another excerpt (from Robt. Novak, no less!!)

In a September 25, 2002, article entitled “Following Iraq’s Bioweapons Trail,” author Robert Novak wrote,

FIRST TIME I EVER SAW THIS, ACTUALLY.

An eight-year-old Senate report confirms that disease-producing and poisonous materials were exported, under U.S. government license, to Iraq from 1985 to 1988 during the Iran-Iraq war. Furthermore, the report adds, the American-exported materials were identical to microorganisms destroyed by United Nations inspectors after the Gulf War. The shipments were approved despite allegations that Saddam used biological weapons against Kurdish rebels and (according to the current official U.S. position) initiated war with Iran.

WALT, I'M NOT DENYING, AND DON'T THINK I'VE DENIED THAT SOME OF THIS TOOK PLACE; I THOUGHT IT HAD BEEN CONTAINED TO SOME ANTHRAX STRAINS, AND SOME DUAL-USE CHEMICALS; I'M NOT JUST SURE IF IT ENCOMPASSED ANYTHING ELSE; I'VE SEEN NO SUBSTANTIAL INFORMATION TO CONFIRM THAT.

Why did Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush enter into a close relationship with Saddam Hussein? Why did they furnish him with weapons of mass destruction? It’s impossible to know for sure but the most likely reason was that U.S. officials intended for Saddam to use such weapons against the Iranian people during the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s.

WALT, NOT PLAYING "GOTCHA", BUT HERE, YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT THE WMD SALES TOOK PLACE, AS A KNOWING PART OF US POLICY. I THINK YOUR CONCLUSIONS ARE CORRECT IF THEY TOOK PLACE, AND FOR THE REASONS YOU STATE IF THEY TOOK PLACE; BUT NOVAK'S ARTICLE, TO ME, LOOKS LIKE MORE CONFIRMATION, AGAIN, OF MY CONTENTION, AND FROM MY EXPERIENCE IN THE AREA, THAT IRAQI CIVILIAN AND MILITARY ENTITIES, USING FRONT COMPANIES, MANAGED TO BUY SOME BIO/CHEM AGENTS, MAINLY DUAL USE, AND ALSO ONES THAT WERE PURPORTEDLY FOR PURE CIVILIAN R&D OVER IN IRAQI.

WE MAY BE PLAYING SEMANTICS HERE; BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT AS PART OF A DELIBERATE ADMINISTRATION POLICY(IES), THE US KNOWINGLY SOLD BIO/CHEM AGENTS TO THE SADDAM GOVERNMENT.

I'M SAYING THAT THE IRAQIS DID GET SOME DUAL USE BIO/CHEM STUFF, OBSENTSIBLY FOR R&D AND NON-MILITARY USE, THRU OBFRUSCATION, LIES, FRONT-COMPANIES, ETC.

NOW, I AGREE, THE END RESULT, I.E. DEAD KURDS AND IRANIANS; BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING TO PROVE, THAT WE KNOWINGLY EXPORTED/SOLD THAT STUFF TO THEM.

THEY GAMED US, AND GOT WHAT THEY WANTED.

SO, IT'S A MATTER OF INTENT.

AS FAR AS I KNOW, NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO SHOW THE DEVIOUS INTENT, THAT YOU INTIMATE, AND ALL YOUR POSTS, SO FAR, THOUGH THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE EXPORTS TOOK PLACE, DO NOT FRANKLY, PROVE THE INTENT.

AS I SAID, WHEN I WAS IN THE GULF IN THE LATE 80'S, NO ONE, THAT I INTERACTED WITH ON ANY LEVEL, IN THE US INTEL AND MILITARY COMMUNITIES, HAD ANY ILLUSIONS AS TO EXACTLY HOW BAD AND EVIL THE IRAQIS WERE!

SORRY TO THE CAPS, JUST WANTED TO DISTINGUISH MY REPLIES TO YOUR POSTS.

bring it scooter. I'd whoop your ass. and then fuck your wife.

Anonymous you have shown you could probably muster a bumper sticker argument. And you've proven you could be outraged.Shown your violent side. Now how bout them Democrat quotes on Iraq? Let's get your insight into those. If you hadn't noticed I have been "bring it" with quotes and "whooping YOUR ass" through exposing Democrat hypocrisy on Iraq. What say you?

Wow Anonymous, that's a nice Intelligent comment?

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

Way to elevate the conversation to very Professional level!

Dale,

Thanks for keeping our conversation above the fray!
I respect your views. Your experience and expertise in this area is very impressive. I've enjoyed our exchange and I've learned a lot.
For anyone who is interested (not many, apparently) in delving into this topic in more detail,please check out the link below.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Draw your own conclusions...

Walt: Hi, thanks for the comments; you too.

I guess I just want to add one more thing.

Where I'm coming from is this; to assume that the US Govt, under any Administration, knowningly export that stuff, to Saddam, falls in the Conspiracy-realm arena.

I've been in the Intel-Military community for some years.

My experience, when I step back, and look at it dispassionately, actually proves, that Conspiracy Theories are sooooooooooooooo much Bullshit.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are BAD individuals, in specific times and places, that with help maybe from one/two "lackys" and/or "careerists", do bad/illegal things, and get away with it, or cover it up, and maybe later get caught, and maybe don't. Heaven knows, I myself have actually been the victim of that, but that's for another post.

But these Oliver Stone-Enemy of the State-JFK-Watergate-Military-Industrial-Complex type Conspiracies involving thousands of secret assassination squad types and evil Government functionaries, are just plain totally wrong, and total BS, and really, the realm of Leftist Hollywood nutbags like Charlie Sheen, Oliver Stone movies, and the like.

It's become such a cliche, and such a staple of Hollywood product, ever since "Three Days of the Condor", Eiger Sanction, and Marathon Man type movies, that it's just accepted as fact now by Americans, and since Hollywood exports to the world, rabid anti-Americans everywhere, that the US Govt, and US Presidents, are E.V.I.L, and engage in all kinds of nefarious type Conspiracy Crap.

Unfortunately, where there's smoke, sometimes, there was/is fire; so idiotic things like the Kennedy Administration's amateur attempts to assassinate Castro with exploding/poisoned cigars; and other less than stellar events in our Government's history, such as the Public Health Services disgracefull Tuskeegee Syphillis experiment on Black men in the 1950's; Ollie North's totally illegal and amateur Iran-Contra gambit, etc., are just plain stupid and dumb enough, to fan the flames of the Conspiracy Theorist Kool-Aid slurpers, like a dehydrated man in the Sahara Desert drink from a Water-bull!

And, if being completely honest, I used to believe the worst too; heck, I grew up in the 60's, I was exposed to all the anti-Govt, anti-US, Vietnam War era feminism, political correctness, anti-American Academia bullshit as well, and that stuff has a cumulative effect on you, and your beliefs; it can warp your mind.

But fortunatly for me, I had some very real-world experiences, that taught me some painful lessons, and caused me to reassesss the basic pablum we are fed, on a daily basis, by Leftist elements of our Media, Acadamia, and our own Govenment sometimes! Additionally, I got to live overseas in countries such as Nigeria (6 years); Egypt (5 years); Spain (3 years); Japan (2+years); Iraq (six weeks); Baharain (six months); and dozens of others, for varying times, and I frankly had my eyes opened, to the Bullshit, and the reflexive anti-Americanism of most of the world, fed in no small part, by the AMERICAN MEDIA, and HOLLYWOOD.

And, for the record, this is not a recent phenom, as pushed by the LA/NY TIMES/WASHPOST/Howard Dean cabal; my experices overseas, with rabid anti-Americanism, stretches back to 1966, and my Parent's experiences with it, stretches back to 1943!!, and includes an additional 13 years in Liberia, and 5+years in Sudan, among others!

So, to sum it all up, in regards to Conspiracy Theories, and our "evil" Govt, Occam's Razor usually applies, in fact, in 99% of the case; i.e., when presented with a set of "facts", in almost every case, the SIMPLEST explaination is what is correct; Government Conspiracy Theories are usually one/two BAD APPLES, doing BAD stuff, and getting away with it. Nothing more, nothing less.

And, also, never forget Hanlon's Law: Never ascribe a motive of maliciousness to any particular act, when an explaination of sheer incompetence will suffice!!

R/dale

First off I had to check to see this was the Keith on Jay section. You always know that something good is gona come when the Loons go off topic!!!!!

Watched the two clips posted at NewsBusters. Missy if you don't already know, you can find it there.

Clip #1 Ya know Keith has inspired me. Someone who has done worse than me on open mic nights! That opening was BAD! REALLY, REALLY, BAD! You guys at Newsbusters should insert the crickets sound, It's just that close! And, cut Jay some slack! He was probibly asked by NBC brass and being the good team player........

Clip #2 I'll borrow a line I've seen from the Loon websites. "The BOR thing? It's tired,It's played out,Just drop it! At this point Keith's tires are just spinning in the mud and the car is sinking deeper. And Keith I don't think AAA is going to be showing up to get you out! Plus, is it just me or did Keith look like he was in need of an inhaler towards the end of that clip?

I guess the bottom line here is I don't see any Loons going ga-ga over that appearence. I mean I haven't seen Sherry Star post anything it was so bad. Thats how bad he bombed! But then again, I haven't checked out Neither Revelent nor True.

Wow - I think we might need to turn this post into a white paper and publish it.

Scooter went to a lot of trouble to post the Chickenhawk Dems. Here's a list from the Chickenhawk Database - their motto "Born to Kill, not to Serve"

Name: George W. Bush (R-TX)
Born: 1946
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: You know when a guy walks away from a National Guard obligation during wartime and gets away with it, he must come from "a good family." Not that his daddy had anything to do with his getting a Guard slot in the first place - oh, no!

Name: Richard "Dick" Cheney (R-WY)
Born: 1942
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Says he had "other priorities." You bet he had other priorities. Imagine how early in life you must begin scheming to get away with what this guy has. He was too busy thinking about Halliburton to go fight Charlie.

Name: Paul Wolfowitz
Born: 1943
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Deputy Secretary for Defense - yet another Bush administration man in the Pentagon who has no idea what it's like to wear a uniform. He got a BA at Cornell in 1965. Maybe if we'd had a guy as bright as he thinks he is in Vietnam, it would have turned out differently.

Name: Karl Rove
Born: 1950
Employer: Baal
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Karl “Bush’s Brain” Rove ran George W.’s campaign, right down to the tiny detail of deciding Bush was going to run. The hardest part was convincing a horde of Republican skeptics that it could be done.
He is said to have said of his boss, he’s "the kind of candidate and officeholder political hacks like me wait a lifetime to be associated with."

Name: I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Born: 1950±
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby is Dick Cheney’s Chief of Staff. He’s had a string of no-doubt well-paying government jobs in State and Defense. He’s also practiced law. In fact, he was Marc Rich’s lawyer for years. Yes — the Marc Rich whose pardon from President Clinton was excoriated by so many high and mighty Republicans. Maybe if Scooter had been a better lawyer, his client wouldn’t have needed that pardon. Speaking of legal questions, “Scooter” is alleged by some to have traded energy stocks while helping his buddy Dick Cheney cook up a new energy policy in secret. He’s also suspected of having inserted the bogus “Niger yellowcake” reference into the President’s State of the Union address. As if all that weren’t enough, he’s also a top suspect in the outing of CIA operative Valeria Plame. Clearly “Scooter” is a ballsy kind of guy, so it’s a complete mystery to us why, when he graduated from Phillips Andover in 1968, he didn’t enlist in the Marines or go Airborne instead of going to Yale.

Name: Donald "The Don" Rumsfeld
Born: 1932
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Korea
Notes: When the shooting started in Korea Rummy here was either 18, or about to turn 18. Not to worry for him, though — he spent the war at Princeton, wearing a ROTC uniform. Once the war was over he flew jets for the Navy for a few years. Defenders of Rumsfeld will say he’s no chickenhawk — he served, and it’s not his fault the war ended before he got his commission. To which others answer, “plenty of farmers and mechanics and kids just out of high school served. Anyone as full of whatever that stuffing in him is, could have tried out for a battlefield commission.”

Democrats put the Chicken in chickenhawk. 2 Democrats mentioned went on foreign soil to subvert our government: Kerry to Paris held talks with North Vietnamese. Admitted in testimony he participated in atrocities. Clinton was a Vietnam conscientious objector who went to communist Russia while they were giving material support to NVA during the war.

But my point was they went on record supporting Iraq invasion.
You only mention men. I find that curious given you probably support equal rights for women as i do. But I did mention Hillary. What are you some kind of anti womans rights type?

But the people mentioned above Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rove, and Wolfowitz are currently serving the US with distinction and honor with there combined effort against the 9/11 culprits and Saddam's Terrorist state. They have shown courage to do the un-popular but right thing in begining the long over due fight against Islam and Terrorism. They are making a difference and have my full support. I am glad Bush was in office on 9/11 and not Al Gore. Al Gore is a weak kneed little sister type at best and would have done the US much damage in world standing by not responding to the attacks.

Say what you will about Bush Co. You do anyway. But invading 2 countries and removing dictators and rabid clerics from power sends a pretty strong message. And GW policy and dilligence has kept us from being attacked at home since 9/11. It makes a much bolder statement then bombing empty asprin factories. And cutting and running from Mogadishu. Like the cowardly populist Bill Clinton did.

29 more months of dead terrorist and tax cuts. YEE HAW..MISSION being ACCOMPLISHED!!!!!!!!

Democrats put the Chicken in chickenhawk. 2 Democrats mentioned went on foreign soil to subvert our government: Kerry to Paris held talks with North Vietnamese. Admitted in testimony he participated in atrocities. Clinton was a Vietnam conscientious objector who went to communist Russia while they were giving material support to NVA during the war.

But my point was they went on record supporting Iraq invasion.
You only mention men. I find that curious given you probably support equal rights for women as i do. But I did mention Hillary. What are you some kind of anti womans rights type?

But the people mentioned above Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rove, and Wolfowitz are currently serving the US with distinction and honor with there combined effort against the 9/11 culprits and Saddam's Terrorist state. They have shown courage to do the un-popular but right thing in begining the long over due fight against Islam and Terrorism. They are making a difference and have my full support. I am glad Bush was in office on 9/11 and not Al Gore. Al Gore is a weak kneed little sister type at best and would have done the US much damage in world standing by not responding to the attacks.

Say what you will about Bush Co. You do anyway. But invading 2 countries and removing dictators and rabid clerics from power sends a pretty strong message. And GW policy and dilligence has kept us from being attacked at home since 9/11. It makes a much bolder statement then bombing empty asprin factories. And cutting and running from Mogadishu. Like the cowardly populist Bill Clinton did.

29 more months of dead terrorist and tax cuts. YEE HAW..MISSION being ACCOMPLISHED!!!!!!!!

Men of Honor Series: George H.W. Bush. Served in Air Force Reserve for the Great State of Texas. Fighter Pilot. Two term President of the United States of America.Man of the people.Defender of Democracy.Commander in Chief during the Islamic attack of September 11th. Responded by invading 2 countries and deposing there governments because of ties to September 11th attack on US of A. His Churchill-esque manner has garnered him fear and respect from friends and enemies alike.

Quote: Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

President Bush
State of the Union address
January 28, 2003

Posted by: scooter at July 26, 2006 10:41 PM

Note: The false accusation that GWB was AWOL from the air national guard led to the ruination of Dan Rathers career. This pleased me to no end as it was earned many times over by Danny boy. It also altered the career of Mary Mapes who had trumped up other "stories" in her colorful career. This to pleased me to no end. The black eyes the OLD MEDIA has been recieving lately is long overdue and well deserved.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Democrat Chickenhawk Motto 1: "Never supported the US miltary, never will. But if it helps with elections we'll pretend. Then back out if it suits our goal."

Democrat Chickenhawk Motto 2:"Born to steal,not to work"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA The stupidity out of this guy is great.

HAHAHA. Sorry still laughing.

Anonymous you add much to the debate. Do a bong chill out. Then laugh some more dude. Then think up another whole sentence.

HAHAHAHAHA I am adding as much as you DUDE!

Anonymous did you post the cartoon. Its like the second post?

Anyhow it was off topic jab. So i followed with some quotes from the Democrats in support of the war they now want to surrender in.

*Men of Honor Series: George W. Bush

Bush Administration cuts $1.5 billion from military family housing. The Bush Administration cut $1.5 billion for military family housing, despite Department of Defense statistics showing that in 83,000 barracks and 128,860 family housing units across the country are below standard. ("Nothing But Lip Service," Army Times, June 30, 2003; "House Appropriations Committee Approves $59.2 Million for Ft. Hood," U.S. Rep. Chet Edwards Press Release, June 17, 2003)
*

Bush Republicans support millionaires instead of military veterans. Bush allies in Congress stopped efforts to scale back the tax cut for the nation's millionaires by just five percent - a loss of just $4,780 for the year - in order to restore this funding for military family housing. ("The Tax Debate Nobody Hears About," Washington Post, June 17, 2003)
*

Bush Administration underfunded veterans' health care by $2 billion. The Bush Administration's 2004 budget underfunded veterans' health care by nearly $2 billion. ("Vets Health Low on Bush's Priority List," The Hill, September 17, 2003; "Support for Troops Questioned," Washington Post, June 17, 2003; U.S. Department of Veterans' Affairs, September 2002)
*

Bush Administration proposal would end health care benefits for 173,000 veterans. More than 173,000 veterans across the country would be cut off from health care because of Bush Administration proposed budget cuts and its plan requiring enrollment fees and higher out-of-pocket costs. ("Support for Troops Questioned," Washington Post, June 17, 2003)
*

Bush Administration budget cuts force more than 200,000 veterans to wait for health care. Over 200,000 United States veterans have to wait more than six months for a medical visit because of health care shortages. ("VA Health Care Funding Alert," Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States Press Release, January 31, 2003)
*

Bush Administration opposed plan to give National Guard and Reserve Members access to health insurance. Despite the war efforts of America's National Guard and Reserve Members, the Bush Administration announced in October 2003 its formal opposition to give the 1.2 million Guard and Reserve members the right to buy health care coverage through the Pentagon's health plan. One out of every five Guard members lacks health insurance. ("Bush Opposes Health Plan for National Guard," Gannett News Service, October 23, 2003)
*

Bush Administration cuts $172 million allotted for educating the children of military personnel. The Bush Administration's 2004 budget cut $172 million of impact aid funding. Impact aid funding assists school districts by making up for lost local tax revenue from tax-exempt property, such as military bases. These education cuts will especially affect school-age children of troops serving in Iraq who reside on military bases. ("Support for Troops Questioned," Washington Post, June 17, 2003)
*

Bush Administration tax cut denies military families increase in child tax credit. The families of 262,000 children of military personnel do not receive the child tax credit increase because the plan fails to cover taxpaying families with incomes between $10,500 and $26,625. According to The Washington Post, the House version of the Bush Administration plan "wouldn't help many of those serving in Iraq." One solider who will not benefit is Army Specialist Shoshana Johnson, the soldier and single mother who was wounded twice in the same convoy as Jessica Lynch. ("Ex-POW's Family Accuses Army of Double Standard on Benefit," Washington Post, October 24, 2003; "The New Senate Child Credit Legislation - What It Does and Does Not Do," Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, June 25, 2003; "Whose Child Is Left Behind," Children's Defense Fund, July 23, 2003)