I was interviewed today for the CBS Evening News. They sent a cameraman and producer out to my house for an on-camera interview set to air sometime next week. And no - it was not about Keith Olbermann. They were putting together a story on the same topic as the USA TODAY cover story which ran two weeks ago (in which I was quoted several times). As some of you know I was bumped from Dr. Phil last week so I you never know what gets on air - the best I can hope for is my 6-8 seconds of "fame" in a soundbite. They said they would call to tell me when the piece was set to run. I will let you know.

CBS News needs more clear-thinkers, Bob. That's great news. Keep us posted.

Just checked the ratings, looks like olbermann actually did worse on wednesday with his precious, i mean special comment than he did on tuesday. Maybe even the olbyloons are'nt buying olby's lies anymore.

Special Comments are only "special" if they are rare. He's up to about 3 of them a week. Not very special any more. And they are lies, so why bother watching.

So, just so I understand...it is bad for Bush to campaign for candidates who were unfaithful in their marriage.

Yet...

It is allright for BJ Clinton...well, you know.

Right you are Mike! Cigars for everyone!

Keith is on....be quiet let the genius speak in silence.

KB1's blog is back up. Enjoy.

Keith is on....be quiet let the genius speak in silence.

Did Bill Clinton slap Hillary around... I mean I know he should have,,,, but did he ?

Bill.. I would love to walk into Faux news studios with a hand grenade.... Get Hannity and O'Reilly together... boom... america is better off

O'reilly just got WPITW....How may is that?
Olby is in repeats again.....

Not only did BillO get WPITW again...but, he earned it over a guy who threatened to rape passers by at his newsstand.

The completely apolitical segment rears its ugly head yet again.

Olby is all-in on the election...everything but the sink. If the GOP holds, Olby may need that grenade.

Barack Obama is doing everyone else's show before Olby's, of course.

Who's subs for this guy? Does he ever get a vacation? He's like Citizen Kane....Citizen Olby....fighting for the little guy....Declaration of Principles !!!

What will be his last words? What's his equivalent to Rosebud? Maybe he will say "Sportscenter"......it was the happiest time of his life.......Olby.....Orsen Wells incarante.

LOL "Does he ever get a vacation?" LMFAO. Check out the June/July/August transcripts.

the only reason i ask is because, who the heck would substitute for this wing nut?

jesse jackson?, michael moore?

I see O'leilly's lobotomy is working well. I find it amazing such a brain dead shitbag like O'leilly can even figure out how to turn his computer on.
Thanks O'leilly this is day # 124 of you being the worst person in the world on Olbermannwatch.com.
anothe rday of the olbertard rooting for the liberlal oops excuse me now that are callinghtemselves "prgressives" because the monniker "liberal" rightfully has s such a negative connotation.
Hey Kieth O how much is the demcorat party paying you to pimp for them? or are you just getting paid in yound androgynous interns these days. maybe we can send O;leilly to give you a nice back rub or something.
Did you ever really look at the olbermann's doofy face after he asks one of his lap dog yes men a question?? what a laugh! this guy really takes himself soooo seriously.
I wonder what this democrat cheerleader is going to do when the dimmocrats DO NOT get control of the congress? how pissed off will the big moron be then? will he break down and cry because al his huffing and whining were for naught??
When will this kooky self serving blowhard realize that outside of the daily kos crowd and the code pinkos nobody is paying attention to him other that to laugh at his lunatic rants?
poor little kiehty . his staion is going under for lack of viewers and he is , as usual low man on the totem pole of ratings.
hey Kieth! maybe you can get a job at FOX as a night janitor- that is all you are really qualified to do anyway. Well maybe not. he just might blame the dirty floors on President Bush and walk off in a pout after ruminating over it for an hour. Maybe ol kiethy can get a job down in venezuala as hugo chavez's propoganda minister .

What wonderful summaries we have been getting -- and within minutes of the end of Meltdown no less. Mr. Dollar, I must ask if you are taking performance-enhancing drugs.

I know the koz-maniacs love their nightly dose of Foley and evil bush but for the rest of America this overkill will backfire.

His demo ratings keep dropping. Why would that be exactly? The irony here is that the rate his demos are dropping, his average viewer will be older than O'Reilly's soon. Isn't that his great beef (one of them) with Fox and Bill? That Bill has "old" viewers? Guess KO is finding out about that right now. But maybe he's doing better know in the coveted 22-year old demo with his new beard. . . I mean "girlfriend"?

but oliver willis says Keith is up 69%....yet KO is still last...how can this be....lol.

MSNBC ratings are going through the roof, which is why the Secaucus broadcast operation is being closed and its remnants will be spread scattershot throughout NY, NJ and LA. Yeah, they are a HUGE success. The network's remaining primetime lineup will be a decade-old Headliners and Legends episodes.

Olbermann's a prick who will eventually drown in that bucket of water he constantly carries for the libs. How soon will it be until KO goes moves to CNBC? I'm sure he can't be happy having to compete with dingbat Donny Deutsch!

MSNBC is a "civic project" compared to the entire GE company. This is typical consolidation in the TV industry. You should not read into the move from Ft Lee to 30 Rock. Let's get back to the issue at hand... Looney Olby.

DOC-BLOCK is what both Krazy Keith and Donny have to watchout for...lol.

Citizen Keith could not beat out poker lessons on Video on Demand.

After nbc's announcment of job cuts i expected tons of posts from olbyloons about the corporate fascists suppressing free speech, but it has'nt happened yet and they did'nt tune in for olby's precious comment last night either. I can't help but wonder if something is wrong in loonyland.

From the WaPo.

"Moving quickly to implement the bill signed by President Bush this week that authorizes military trials of enemy combatants, the administration has formally notified the U.S. District Court here that it no longer has jurisdiction to consider hundreds of habeas corpus petitions filed by inmates at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba.

In a notice dated Wednesday, the Justice Department listed 196 pending habeas cases, some of which cover groups of detainees. The new Military Commissions Act (MCA), it said, provides that "no court, justice, or judge" can consider those petitions or other actions related to treatment or imprisonment filed by anyone designated as an enemy combatant, now or in the future."

Anyone wonder if any of the 196 are really terrorists? Doesn't matter, we'll never know. Welcome to America.

Normally i would respond to you hit_escape, but i think this time i'll let your comment stand on it's own.

I'm sure those nice muslims down in gitmo are glad they've got you sticking up for them.

Olby is all-in on the election...everything but the sink. If the GOP holds, Olby may need that grenade.

Posted by: Little Feechie at October 19, 2006 08:58 PM

If they don't, you may drink your koolaid and lay down now.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/

Here's a must read for the armchair warmonger. By Pat Tillman's war-hero brother.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1926809,00.html

Bush brought in Baker to add weight to his fiasco, but even that old throat-cutter couldn't stomache the mess we've made in Iraq.

This site is so funny. Bush's keyboard commandos - fighting the dangerous "images on your TeeVee". You know; shutting your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "Blah, Blah Blah" works just as well, I'm told.

I read that O'Reilly doesn't use paper -he's said to rely on his "carefully managed diet to keep his pipes clean", and that he never needs to wipe. He claims he doesn't even buy TP any more. Boy, I bet that studio is ripe!

How old are you, Robert Cox? Why aren't you fighting in Iraq?

By the way; the post about O'Reilly's crusty ass was made-up, but it reflects the level of discourse on this website to a tee.

With regards to Olbermann's SPECIAL COMMENT....

They aren't called Special because they are rare treats for all of us. Like a previous poster stated, Mr. Olbermann is making them a routine part of his show now, so special can't possibly mean rare.

No, my friends, Special here is like how special is meant for, "Special Education." Set aside, different.....but for Olbermann, "Peculiar" comes to my mind.....or even bizarre.

So, from now on, I will refer to these rants as PECULIAR COMMENTS...so that I myself do not get confused.

The armed forces will rebel against pathetic yes-men like these, talking about their patron Rumsfeld:

"We're lucky as a nation that he continues to serve with such passion and such integrity and such determination and such brilliance," said Navy Admiral Stavridis, 51.

"He leads in a way that the good Lord tells him is best for our country," said Marine General Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

I bet he also serves a fine Chablis with the fish course, and dishes out raises for his top toadies hand-over-fist.

How old are you cee? Why aren't you fighting in Iraq?

I am 37 Sir Loin, and I did not volunteer for the armed forces, ever. Why do you ask?

hey go to
www.shutthefuckupsirloinofbeef.com.
how old are you sir loin of bullshit? why aren't you not serving?
can't get past the don't ask, don't tell policy or is it you just think that watching olbermann and posting stupid ass posts on this website covers your civic duty?
you are a real piece of shit for even bringing up Pat Tillman here. There is man who is a milion times the hero that olbermann or you could ever be. he actually went out and gave his life so mouthy little chickenshit liberal a--holes could have the right to be mouthy little chickenshit liberal a--holes.
my only descision is deciding between you olbermann and that little worm o'lielly which is the biggest traitrorous, slimiest, lowlife that ever disgraced their country. No wonder decent thinking people absolutely hate liberals like you. you are all the scum of the earth.
you and olbermann are not even worthy to be toilet paper.

cee,

I ask because if I percieved an existential military threat to my nation I would be on the front lines engaged in the most hazardous duty for which I would be deemed suitable, to hopefully preclude the need of my sons having to do the same in the future.

Of course, I am and have been weighing in full force in combatting an existential political threat to our nation - you people. And when that one gets bloody, I'll still be in it.

How do you reconcile your uncritical support for the war with your supine innaction? Do you find comfort and rationalization in your book?

" how old are you sir loin of bullshit? why aren't you not serving?"

Because, Anonymous, it's a volunteer military and I think the war is a crime that will ruin the United States. I guess, from the seething dissonance of your post, that you're sitting on your ass in front of the TV too, just like cee.

Did you read the piece I posted by Tillman's brother? Have you read anything Pat Tillman himself wrote about the war before he was killed by mysteriously directed freindly fire?

more for Annonymous:

...I guess if you had read this material you'd be calling Pat Tillman a "mouthy little chickenshit liberal a--hole" as well.

"if I percieved an existential military threat to my nation I would be on the front lines engaged in the most hazardous duty for which I would be deemed suitable, to hopefully preclude the need of my sons having to do the same in the future."

Nice hypothetical pronouncement, Sir Loin....As a self defined realist, you know full well that your statement means NOTHING and is highly conjectural. My hypotheticals can be just as easily dismissed as well, so try again.

1) How do you reconcile your uncritical support for the war with your supine innaction?

My answer to this was put very eloquently by you, "I am and have been weighing in full force in combatting an existential political threat to our nation - you people. And when that one gets bloody, I'll still be in it."

2) Do you find comfort and rationalization in your book?

If by, "my book," you mean the bible, I'll quote something from it to you in response....

"So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.

But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength." 1 Corinthians: 20-23

I can explain it to you if you want, Sir Loin.

cee,

42 is the new top induction age, as of a couple of months ago. Now that you're aware I'm sure you will rush down to sign up, and actually realize teh courage of your convictions.

DO you think we have adequate numbers in the military to stick it out in Iraq? Chickenhawk Max boot just wrote a pamphlet for the WaPo recommending that we give immigrants immediate citizenship follwing a term of military service - as long as he never has to serve!

"I can explain it to you if you want, Sir Loin"

No, you have made it very clear. You are an elitist home-guard chickenhawk who sends the courageous and unfortunate off to die for lies while he finds comfort and rationalization for his supine innaction in his book.

"Nice hypothetical pronouncement, Sir Loin....As a self defined realist, you know full well that your statement means NOTHING and is highly conjectural."

Well, fuck you too, coward.

) How do you reconcile your uncritical support for the war with your supine innaction?

My answer to this was put very eloquently by you, "I am and have been weighing in full force in combatting an existential political threat to our nation - you people. And when that one gets bloody, I'll still be in it."

--------------------------

Aren't there plenty of old men on your side who can fight the rhetorical fight at home? Seems to me that the soldiers - getting killed in the highest numbers of three years of war - could use some real support from those of you of an age to be of some use in the battlefield.

You say my statement regarding regarding my anticipated reaction to an existential threat is "conjectural" - and that, of course is true - this has not happened in my lifetime.

But what is definitely NOT conjectural in this regard is your disposition. You see fundamentalist Islam as an existential threat, you said so numerous times. The physical fight - according to everyone except for Bush, Cheny, Rumsfeld and their immediately subordinate lackeys - is going badly. Its certainly going on and on and on , and many of our forces are being stop-loss-ed and having tours extended. Yet you do nothing.

I hate to be the one to tell you, but your service as war-philosopher is really nothing to brag on. If there are truly no atheists in fox-holes, perhaps you'd do more good there.

- you could take a lap-top and start a blog - or at least continue to post on this dumb-ass website.

Sir Loin,

Our previous discussions addressed the root causes and continuing impetuses for the violence of this war in Iraq. You and I have 180 degree views of this, so I know this post is likely not to settle any differences

The bible holds the ultimate truth that only the changed heart of the individual through the incarnation of the crucified and resurrected, living Christ can end the evil that resides there. In my heart, in your heart, in everyone's heart. That is why I quote Paul. It's not rules, morality, or knowledge, its actual physical incarnation of Christ.

That said, the discussion on this site goes on, and I see the reality that many choose not to allow their heart the exposure necessary for real change. Second to the redemption, everything else, the secular, stands for good or ill, influencing this physical life we have for just a short period of time. All of the contradictions of this reality to what God intended is the great mystery. So, the discussion continues.

...so Paul says you can kill or foment the jkilling of whoever you wish; that you can compell the young and impressionable or the poor and desparate to arm themselves and fight and kill innocents as proxies for imaginary threats; all to to fulfill God knows what desires in your precious heart -

- but if you luvs Jeeeesus its all OK. You are a repellant weasle. I hope Jesus breaks a sandal off in your ass.

cee, and as far as I can tell - every other rightie on this website - is an elitist coward. They were called "Jodies" in Vietnam - except this batch doesn't even have the balls to seduce soldiers' lonely wives.

cee, if you get time, watch this and let me know what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LANaUYuPfxA&eurl=

Sir Loin,

cee is trying to have a discussion with you, yet all you do is hurl out vulgarities. Once you start writing in such a crude manner, people automatically dismiss you as a loon.

Cee,

We had a discussion the other day that never got resolved. Is the good news of the gospel the meggage that most of you are going to burn in HELL? Do you believe that? Isn't that the case if only a born again Christian has God in their heart. Many if not most of the people that supported you and raised you will go to eternal torment. I question you not as a non believer but as someone who believes in Christ, but not THAT Christ.

codas,

No, the "good news" that people like cee find in their gospels is that can use the book to rationalize any crime or cowardice, or ignore any fact that they wish.

Missy,

cees's use of Christ's messages of peace and forgiveness to excuse aggressive war on innocents and to excuse himself from the dangers and discomforts of that war are themselves vile vulgarities.

The bible thumpers and chickenhawks that live on this hatesite might dismiss me as a loon?! Oh No!

I meant:

Missy,

cees's use of Christ's messages of peace and forgiveness to excuse aggressive war on innocents and to excuse himself from the dangers and discomforts of that war is itself avile vulgarity.

The bible thumpers and chickenhawks that live on this hatesite might dismiss me as a loon?! Oh No!

Hey Cecilia,

Do you think Paul is still alive? They say you never get over your first Olberrmaniac, and Paul was mine.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/

read this, Kfk. Are the Tillman brothers "Olbyloons"?

"mysteriously directed freindly fire"

You're an a--hole. The people responsible have to live with that accident for the rest of their lives while some armchair douchebag that has conveniently never found a war worth fighting in his lifetime (aka coward) blithely accuses them of purposely killing one of their own. You didn't really need to say you never served this country. Nobody that has served, 'Killed in Cold Blood' Murtha being a notable exception, would accuse a fellow soldier of killing their own without overwhelming evidence. Clearly you have no shame.

Did you read the article?

...and I'm not accusing a soldier of knowingly killing a fellow, - I'm suggesting that Rumsfeld had the motive and opportunity to see to it that the soldier he viewed as a rebellious poster-boy was killed.

- and Murtha never said anything about military fratricide - he weighed in on a clear case of masscre of indigenous civilians. Or does that never happen either?

Kfk,

You two will always have Ohio...

I went to Hackley (high school) with Keith and I can tell you that his total lack of ethics is not a suprise to those of us who had to endure him in high school. There wasn't a bigger two-faced, back-stabbing,tattle-tell, nerd on the planet then Keith. Keith's serial womanizing and abuse are not suprising to those of us who witnessed Keith's rage at never getting laid. Given the fact that girls looked at Keith with the sort of disgust that one would reserve for a dog shitting on your carpet, it is not suprising that Keith would have a lot of trouble with his adult interactions with women.

Keith's further insanity is also the product of his heavy drug use in high school. I think many of his "special comments" are the result of the massive amounts of acid Keith dropped while sitting pathetically by himself on the woods trails to the lower fields.

Sir Loin,

You totally misunderstand my post. The explaination of all violence (and sin for that matter) is the truth that man is evil from birth, not the fact that God provided a way to change the heart. You and I have disagreed about this idea from the start, so I will not dwell on it.

My support for the side fighting fundamentalist islam is definitely arguable and many in my own local church have protested against this specific conflict. I come to my opinion about the virtue in the force applied based on self defense and stopping a worse ideology from invading the society in which I live. You and I have also great differecnes on those justifications. I do not see it as "imaginary" as you do and I disagree with you regarding the root causes...as discussed in the first paragraph. The solution in stopping the jihadists is arguable....but based on the evidence, I believe Bush is correct.

You can use the hyperbole and the strawman, its your right. I will not go around the horn with you again about your argument that I use religion for my own good only or as a rationale for power. I have addressed this issue before as it comes out from the postmodernist tactic of claiming anyone who pronounces truth does so soley for the sake of attaining or keeping power. That nihilistic worldview is your's, Sir Loin, not mine.

I love these little attempts at scary omniscient threats Kfk and Cecelia constantly engage in. I guess they have access to the sign-in info. Bring it on.

"My support for the side fighting fundamentalist islam is definitely arguable and many in my own local church have protested against this specific conflict....The solution in stopping the jihadists is arguable....but based on the evidence, I believe Bush is correct."

So...you don't support the war but you do? This is a departure from previous discussions.

"I love these little attempts at scary omniscient threats Kfk and Cecelia constantly engage in. I guess they have access to the sign-in info. Bring it on."

huh? I've never made an "omniscient threat" in my life.

What paranoid fantasy are you having this minute?

codas,

I am not sure what in particular was new in Kuo's appearance on COLBERT, it was amuzing though...but I have further researched the buzz around Kuo's book and found Marvin Olasky's opinion rather provocative...

"Tempting Faith" is Kuo's attempt to be his own man, a Christian. The book is far more than its highly publicized excerpts about some Bush staffers dissing Christian leaders. Those supposed revelations come as no surprise -- the administration, like the GOP generally, includes both Christians and secular conservatives opposed to Christianity -- but by including them, Kuo gets many more readers than his work would otherwise receive.

To me, Kuo's book is valuable for its specific detail on how the Bush faith-based initiative went astray. Kuo notes that the 2001 Bush tax cut left out "the president's promised $6 billion per year in tax credits for groups helping the poor. Those tax credits had been the centerpiece of compassionate conservative efforts for years." But the White House, Kuo charges, decided that it was more important to cut the estate tax than to help the poor and decentralize poverty fighting. Not wanting to make the big tax bill any bigger, the Bush administration surprised key congressional leaders by pushing successfully to have the anti-poverty tax credits dropped.

Kuo, saying he still wants the compassionate conservative movement to succeed, hopes through his book to attract attention to its yet-unrealized potential: "If this hadn't come out now, how many conservatives would even have given it a single thought?" He wants to communicate to Christians: "Please understand that you are being used. Look shrewdly at that and remember, remember, remember that Jesus must come first."

He's right. Christians clearly need to be discerning and to accentuate biblical ways of helping widows and orphans. But the irony of Kuo's call for Christians to "fast" from politics is that it would increase the power of anti-Christian politicians. If the saints go marching out, others will march in unimpeded.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MarvinOlasky/2006/10/19/tempting_faith,_baiting_bush

I actually have decided to pick up Kuo's book and read it for myself.

I do not have time to answer your other post right now, but will try to later today.

Sir Loin,

Like Colbert in another thread, you read something totally different than what is posted. Arguable means that I recognize there is different opinion about the topic, but that does not diminish my standing by my point of view that

1) The war in Iraq is justified (the means Bush has chosen is the right choice)
2) War is an acceptable action in certain circumstances
3) The opposing side of the war in Iraq is wrong to think fundamentelist Islam is not a serious threat

How you got the "Kerrian thought" - I was for the war after I was against the war - from my statement is beyond me.

What the heck is an "omniscient threat"?

Omniscient = total knowledge
Threat = expression of intention to do harm

??

So do liberals support faith based iniatives or not.

yeah, fuck John Kerry too - equivocating bastard. I'll never vote for him for anything.

So, cee, we're back to the initial question then - why don't you feel compelled to put yourself in danger to defend your country from what you see as an existential threat? Are you too smart or important to risk?

Ok Kfk, I'm paranoid,

Did you read the Tillman article?

Ok Kfk, I'm paranoid,

Did you read the Tillman article?

There is a good chance that Pat Tillman was murdered because he was going to speak out against this war, and at the time of his " death ".. er murder he had a phone call set up with Noam Chomsky. What you rightwingers think you know is humorous, but what you do know is scary and plainly spoken.. WRONG

- no one seems to want to take the trouble of looking at this, so I've helped out:
-----------------------------------

Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.

Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,

Kevin Tillman

OK, forget about Olbermann for a minute - let 'er rip on Kevin Tillman...

- I'm so stupid! I should have posted the Tillman piece as if it were ME writing it (with the personally identifying details omitted, of course), and then waited for your responses in that context!

Oh well, there are other virtual enclaves of rabid chickenhawks out there...

Liberals are paranoid.

codas asked...

Is the good news of the gospel the message that most of you are going to burn in HELL? Do you believe that? Isn't that the case if only a born again Christian has God in their heart. Many if not most of the people that supported you and raised you will go to eternal torment. I question you not as a non believer but as someone who believes in Christ, but not THAT Christ.

I guess I have to address the reality of what Christ was saying in his parable of the Wedding Banquet (Matthew 22:1-14)....a most difficult parable for anybody because of what is said at the end...

"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

codas, Honestly, I struggle with the idea that a loving God can seperate Himself from the unholy, and I do not know the heart of those people you mentioned or what their ultimate judgment was/is. Tradition and art has the images of red devils, fire, brimstone based on passages from the bible. That resultant seperation is not God's fault however because The Good News is that part of the parable where many are invited to attend in verses 8-10.

But the joy of their receiving salvation through grace, that gift does not diminish the opposite consequences of those 1)either refusing the invitation, 2) being hostle to the invitation, or 3)not respecting the invitation. Death is implied in all of the three later reactions.

This was Christ Himself clearly stating what the kingdom of God was like. I would like to hear your interpretation of it, codas.

I highly respect Kevin and Pat Tillman.

Loin, you are really simple minded to make the whole war on terror about two people. It is OK to respect somebody and disagree with thier opinion.

HA HA HA!

"you are really simple minded to make the whole war on terror about two people"

You dipshits make it about ONE person - the nepharious and powerful Keith Olbermann! But Keith's indictments of our leaders are reserved and cautious compared to those of Tillman, and you still despise him for them.

Oh I know; its not his words, its his physique, his sex-life, his "orange-tint", and these make you hate his words.

Go ahead, critique Tillman's "opinions".

Olbermann attacks people personally every day. Why is it not fair to personally criticize him.

Cecilia,

I would avoid one commenter on this thread who is most irrational (I dare not name him directly). He has been having an imaginary conversation with me on this very thread. I fear for all of us.

As for Paul, I need to start a blog called "Ohiobites" and tell all of how he used to comment with me but left abruptly with no explanation, breaking my fragile heart.

He had an explaination, Kfk.

He was cheating on us at another blog called The National Debate and the blog owner there--a curmudgeony New Yorker type...told Paul to "get off his blog and go cry somewhere else" and Paul being Paul, did.

So it's all that mean bad ole blog-owners fault.

I found the exchange via google for your enlightment (and general hilarity...)

http://www.thenationaldebate.com/blog/archives/2005/09/air_america_is_1.html

"Olbermann attacks people personally every day. Why is it not fair to personally criticize him."

It is - go for it. I'm just asking you people to look at articulate statements by Kevin Tillman that far outstrip anything said by Olbermann in terms of criticism of this administration's methods and motives. I'm asking you to critique these statements using the same rubric you use here every day.

Why do you find yourselves incapable of doing so?

Sir Loin said "So, cee, we're back to the initial question then - why don't you feel compelled to put yourself in danger to defend your country from what you see as an existential threat? Are you too smart or important to risk?"

I've been down this road with cee before. cee will roll out the sacrifices his/her family members have made in past wars. cee is content putting a yellow magnetic ribbon on the minivan. Plus cee is religious. It's a sin to kill, but apparently not a sin if you want others to kill/maim.

Kevin Tillman is a good man. I can't wait to defend him when the swiftboating begins.

...for those with the guts to read the article, Tillman has something to say about those ribbons, as well.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/

Here's the Tillman link again, just to make it easy. I'll post the whole text again in a little while, also to facilitate your reading.

indierik,

...and you know they're working hard to come up with some kind of smeer. I wonder how low and nationally disgraceful its gonna be?

I've been agitating all the major newspapers to pick Tillman's piece up as an editorial. If the Washington Post can print the unnaccountable opinions of those pussies Krauthammer, Kagan, and Boot, they sure as hell can make room for someone like Kevin Tillman.

Just read the Tillman article. Why does Kevin Tillman hate America? (Obvious sarcasm on my part. I'm just trying to help the wingnuts begin by using one of their tired talking points.)

I checked out this sight due to curiosity while I was doing an Olbermann search. First, I can't believe there are people that are so morbidly obsessed with Keith Olbermann that an entire website exists for the purpose of calling him names and ridiculing him. I find it hilarious that so many of you watch him every night just so you can beat up on him here! Finally, it's beyond my comprehension how those of you posting here could waste an entire morning going back and forth with such petty and banal comments! GET A LIFE FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!

I checked out this sight due to curiosity while I was doing an Olbermann search. First, I can't believe there are people that are so morbidly obsessed with Keith Olbermann that an entire website exists for the purpose of calling him names and ridiculing him. I find it hilarious that so many of you watch him every night just so you can beat up on him here! Finally, it's beyond my comprehension how those of you posting here could waste an entire morning going back and forth with such petty and banal comments! GET A LIFE FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!

Johnny Dollar said:
"It boggles the mind that the Dow Jones average could hit new record highs day after day without Edward R Olbermann giving the story even a passing reference. Today it closed over 12,0000 for the first time in history."

Okay, Johnny. Today's lesson (courtesy of a fine person over at Fark.com) is in economics:

"Imagine that on November 1, 2000, on the eve of the presidential election that year, you owned one share of each of the DJIA stocks. The Dow was then at 10,966, so your holdings would be worth $10,966. Imagine further that you had a crystal ball, knew that Bush would win the election, increase deficit spending, start an unnecessary war, etc., and you also knew about the 9/11 attack happening and Bush's response to it. You might say, 'this doesn't look good, I think I'll cash out my stocks,' call up your broker, and get a check for $10,966.

But let's say you were also smart enough to know that all of the stuff coming down the pike would be likely to trash the value of the American dollar. So that same day, you took your $10,996 and decided to open an account at a London bank and convert the money to British pounds. The exchange rate on that day was 1.4452 dollars to the pound, which means your $10,966 would have bought you UK£7,403 to deposit in that bank.

Now let's say that you read the news today about the Dow crossing 12,000, and decided it would be a good idea to get back in the market. You decide to buy one share of each of the DJIA stocks--this will cost you $12,000. If you wire transfer the funds out of your U.K. account, they will be converted at today's exchange rate of (as of this second) 1.8843 dollars per pound. That $12,000 would translate to UK£6,369. You would still have UK£1,034 (US$1,948) left in the account, meaning that it cost $1,948 less to buy those stocks today than what you sold them for when the Dow was "lower" in November 2000, because translated to a more stable currency, the Dow is actually 1,948 points lower today than it was in November 2000."

In other words, a dollar doesn't go as far as it did just six years ago...

Sir Loin,

It's comical how quiet the wingnuts are over K. Tillman's piece. I believe they're waiting for the marching orders in how to approach this. Wingnuts aren't allowed to think unless Rove approves the talking points.

Sir....have you had a lot of Mountain Dew or something?

Somebody post some item, then Sir posts like 3 times in a row....then somebody post some other item, then Sir posts like 3 times in a row.... and so and so and so on

Mountain Dew? I think Sir Loin ate up too many chickenhawks today.

OK, wingnuts I'll make an offer. Whoever steps up and says what they're really thinking about Kevin Tillman will be awarded the title of "Bravest Chickenhawk". You have to do it soon, before the Rove talking points get distributed to you. Since Tillman has said what many of us left of center have previously stated I expect you to not hold back. Come on out and hammer him. You wouldn't hesitate if it came from Olby, why should it matter that it comes from K.T.? I really would have much more respect for the wingnut that steps up now. At least I would know one of you can actually think for his/herself.

Who wants the title?

codas, Honestly, I struggle with the idea that a loving God can seperate Himself from the unholy,
Posted by: cee at October 20, 2006 12:23 PM

What is unholy? That's what I would like to know. Is it unholy to not be a
"born again" Christian? As a Catholic I am not born again in the way the protestant would have me be. What if a hindu jumps in front of a truck to save your childs life and is killed in the process. Is he unholy? How about the Jew who tends to an ailing stranger in his midst when others looked away. Is it posible that certain groups of people interpet the bible to say what they want it to say in order for them to appear as the "Chosen" when in fact it is the action of a person, just as Christ said many times that determines who realy is his own. That's all I'm saying. The born again movement tends to, for me at least stress a spiritual event or understanding of Paul or their pastor over what kind of a human being they are. I find the very things Christ commanded to be done being done by people who don't share the born again experience. If there is a hell, there are many Christ claimers there, would you agree? "Not all who call me Lord..." If that is true than could it be true that many non-christians who are not there. Because, God knows who's his. We can never know. If you get to the point when you think you do know, and you have authority over those who you are sure are not "saved" you become dangerous to my way of thinking. Too many people are just keeping Christ seat warm until he gets back if you know what I mean.

Just wanted to give all my fans a head's up (way up for you Katy! thanks to the herbal viagra)...tonight's show is being broadcast from my hidden underground lair deep in the New Mexico countryside (aka Bill Richardson's crawlspace).

Due to the new The Military Commissions Act, I have decided to hide away from our NJ studios because I KNOW Mister Bush SIR has sent secret government troops to arrest me, have declared me an enemy combatant, and booked a flight for me to GITMO. If only I had Albert Pujols steroid riddled body I could then escape to the worker's paradise of Cuba (and continue my experiments in tanning).

Indierk,

We have a winner! some clown called Slado started dishing it out on Tillman- smeering his integrity and accusing hm of "preacing from a soapbox" on the "Another Olby Bomb" strand from today. But no bdy wants to talk about the article itself...

Indierk,

We have a winner! some clown called Slado started dishing it out on Tillman- smeering his integrity and accusing hm of "preacing from a soapbox" on the "Another Olby Bomb" strand from today. But no bdy wants to talk about the article itself...

The entire tillman family has been bashing bush and speaking out against the removal of saddam hussien for the past 2 years, so you'll have to excuse me if i don't get excited about the latest round because it's nothing new.

And before you wet your panties sir lion, i'm not "dishing it out" against kevin tillman, just pointing out a fact.

Just read slado's post and if you think that's "dishing it out" against somebody then you liberals really are the thin skinned pussies everyone thinks you are. Like i said, the entire tillman family has been anti-bush and anti-war for a long time now, you might want to pull your head out of your ass and pay attention to things once in a while.

Congrats to slado! You're the Bravest Chickenhawk! Please go directly to http://www.goarmy.com/contact/find_a_recruiter.jsp?hmref=cs to claim your prize.

P.S. Take that "Arm Chair Warrior" scot with you.

Oh please, indereik, political ideals are not written in stone--- like today... I munst think of this major thumbs DOWN to CNN... for showing footage of a soldier getting shot in the line of duty, and also adding that they could show this on television and that it did make their standards of "newsworthiness".

This, of course, is dispicable and wrong on many levels... but you do not have to be a Conservative to bash anyone, nor a chickenhawk... I guess... still... a major no-no.

I'd rather be an armchair warrior than a liberal pussy indieerica.

scot- this "liberal pussy", as you like to refer to me as, is far from what you want to stereotype me as being. I have such a hatred for chickenhawks it's almost unhealthy. This "liberal pussy" enlisted as an infantryman as a wild 18 year old who used to fist fight on the weekends for fun. I went on to get my jump wings and was even awarded the CIB (I'm sure you'll need to Google this to know what it is).

I've walked the walk, scot. You've talked it but not walked it.

Who's the pussy?

You're the pussy a--hole, i had a recruiter come to my house one week after my eighteenth birthday but did'nt join because my family begged me not to. Worthless fucks like you who say a person can't support a military action unless they've been in the military are the people i have a hatred for because not everyone can join the military but thier support is still needed by those who can. And since you seem so intent on calling everyone a chickenhawk why don't you tell us your name so we can look up your military record. Unless you're lying?

That's what i thought.

". . . why don't you tell us your name so we can look up your military record. Unless you're lying?"

Posted by: scot at October 20, 2006 09:21 PM

You know scot, I was debating whether to bring up my military service or not to you. I guess I was too much of a sucker not to withhold it when you called me a pussy. I can take you calling me a "liar" since I'm not willing to give up my name to potentially thousands of wingnuts. Living in a "red" state I don't believe it would be a wise decision on my part. I like my home, I don't want some chickenhawk vandalizing what I've worked hard for. Plus, my boss is devout Bushie, and I enjoy the anonymity the blogs offer to spew my thoughts (I do respect my boss- he at least served as a combat Marine in Vietnam) So basically I think your request is unreasonable.

That was really "brave" of you to have that recruiter drop by your home when you were 18. It was nice of your family to beg you not to join. I have many memories of my folks BEGGING me to go to college instead of enlisting. I don't know where you're from (obviously, because you too enjoy the anonymity of blogs) but in the state I grew up in 18 year olds are adults and can make decisions for themselves. So justify your Dubya-like absence any way you like. It still doesn't hide the fact you're a coward.

"Worthless fucks like you who say a person can't support a military action unless they've been in the military are the people i have a hatred for. . . "

Posted by: scot at October 20, 2006 09:21 PM

scot I support the military too. I still have friends serving. I'm not against war, I understand there are people that need to get dead. I'm just against unneccesary wars that get our folks sent home feet first for ever-changing justifications from our prez. I used to support our troops by sending $ to organizations like Wounded Warrior. Over the last year I've found that the best way to support the troops is to donate $ to the candidates (Hackett, Murphy, et cetera)that want to get our troops out of the country you're unwilling to go- Iraq.

So feel free to call me a "liar". I'll feel free to call you a "coward".

P.S. The biggest reason I respect the libs over the chickenhawks is at least many of the libs have the courage to say "I don't have what it takes to serve in the theater of war". They're are many topics the libs and I can discuss where we would be on complete opposite ends of the issue. It just so happens that I stand shoulder to shoulder with them on the Iraq War.

You're the one making up excuses a--hole. I have responsibilities towards my family so i did'nt join, i could have easily made up some bullshit story like you did, but i did'nt. All you're doing now is heaping one pile of shit onto another to try to cover your ass. Either back up what you say or shut the fuck up.

Hey SLB and all like minded Olbyloons, I named Oskar Schindler trustee for my estate to protect my children and grandchildren when I'm gone.

After all, he was a bigger than life hero and saved over a thousand people at great personal risk and the loss of the entire fortune he made as a war profiteer.

Friends and family tried to talk me out of it. After all, the man had the personal morals of a pig and cheated in every business deal he ever made.

But I stood firm. He is a hero, I said. He saved a thousand plus innocents and lost all in the process. According to Olbyloon logic, I pointed out, no one can dispute anything about him.

When I went on to show them how SLB and his syncophants view Kevin Tillman they were still horrified.
I stood firm. I accept Kevin Tillman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Bob Dole, Max Chambliss, Duke Cunningham, Adolph Hitler (Iron Cross), swift boat vets for John Kerry et al as unimpeachable.

I will have to go soon. I can't assimulate this. Every hero must be accepted as true and right in everything they say, believe and do.

I am so CONFUUUUSEEED!

Janet Hawkins
AKA Grammie

scot- let's make a deal. Why don't you get on 3 lefty blogs (atrios, Daily Kos, Media Matters, et cetera) for a month and actively shoot off your chickenhawk mouth on a daily basis. Then, at the end of the month, after the regulars become familiar with your wingnut leanings you reveal your name, address, and phone # for all you oppose to see. If you're willing to do it then we'll revisit this in a months time. Whadya say coward?

I do go to lefty blogs, but i go to read what they have to say, not to shoot my mouth off. You came to this site and acted like an a--hole, all i did was call you on it and now you're shitting in your pants because everyone can see you for the worthless lying liberal fuck that you are.

scot-
Come on bro, I PROMISE I will gladly give up my name if you're in it with me. It's really not fair if I stand to be the only person to lose on your initial request. I'm excited about this now, scot. Not only will you be exposed to your adversaries as I will be, but you will be humiliated when you see that I did WALK THE WALK.

Come on scot, you can't be afraid of some "liberal pussies" as you called them. Participate in the lefty blogs. Here's one you can start with right away (and it doesn't have the traffic of Kos)- http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/ (this seems appropriate)

I'll tell ya what- sleep on it tonight. I'm gonna hit the bed now, so I'll check this thread tomorrow to see if we have a deal.

Like i said, i go to lefty blogs, but i don't go there to shoot my mouth off and act like a worthless peice of shit like you do. You came to this site, acted like an a--hole and made claims that you can't back up. I called you on it and now you're shitting all over yourself trying to change the subject, or put it off to a later day and hope everyone forgets how you humiliated yourself tonight. Either back up what you or shut the fuck up.

indierik and Sir Loin try to live in a theoretical world of "serving in a war," to give themselves superiority in debate. It fails because:

indierik: if you are such a brave man, you would not be afraid to have your boss know your vicious ideology. You would be ready to defend your house against the red staters lurking in your bushes. You would gladly offer scot an e-mail address with spam blocking so you can have a private correspondence to prove your bravery. You refuse and that will say a lot.

Sir Loin: You are even easier to dispatch. You claimed to me a hypothetical war you thought was virtuous...you would be there. Well, firstly, its hypothetical so the ability to logically discuss it is impossible, BUT, if that is "true," why are you not out commiting terrorist acts against government entities in support of the islamic cause to end US hegemony? If you are so brave and, "know," the US policy down to the response to 9/11 has been only for corporate profit and power, I would expect you to be a part of some, "homemade" terror cell preparing to liberate all of us chickenhawks. Well, Sir Loin, are you willing to voice your support for anti-US interests?

You two are PATHETIC. I have come to the conclusion that neither of you are actually interested in debate but only hate. I leave the debate knowing full well you both are not ready to be open to anything other than your own vicious and cruel vitriol. So, I will read the Tillman artical Sir Loin so graciously put out, make one comment on it, and that's it....no more back and forth for now for me with two presently superficial, hateful and lying individuals who are more self-rightous than any bible thumper I have ever seen.

PS My response to your strawman about volunteering for military service is simply this....I can only change the present. I am not presently voluteering for military service at this moment in time because the country is effectively waging military action with the brave and capable men and women who have actively joined and are joining the greatest group of people in the world. I am the sole provider for my young family. I will not be hypothetical about the future military demands of our country because it is sophomoric debate and I can say anything about the future or past to serve my own purposes (like our two good friends).

codas,

I realize that you are hesitant to use scripture to come to conclusions regarding Christ's message, but in doing that, are you not relying even more on a, "spiritual" experience; the same experience you seem to have reservations about with regard to your use of the term, "born againers?"

Fruit of the spiritual transformation is the behavior that you so quickly say, "born againers," dismiss. The acts are not what redeems the person, it is the incarnation of Christ. I cannot judge anyone's intentions because they can never truly be known to me. Their behavior may be judged as good, but the reasons for them doing the good are many. Just because we all struggle with why people do wrong, why should we not struggle with why
people do good. All I know is what I read in the scriptures and Jesus specifically answers the question of people putting firth their good deeds as the token of redemption in Matthew 19...

"Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Jesus clearly states, "follow me." Even after accepting the man's claim that he followed the law handed down to Moses...that he did, "good things," he was never perfect, or "holy." What would have been your answer to Christ if you were that guy codas?

And one final word before I go to work.....

To all of the islamic fundamentalist apologists like

Sir Loin
Colbert
codas
indierik
O'lielly
Howard Dean
John Kerry
John Murtha
Nancy Pelosi
Jimmy Carter
Ned Lamont
Michael Moore
Al Franken
and Keith Olbermann....

PLEASE resopond to the latest from Iran's President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

"This regime (Israel) will be gone, definitely," Ahmadinejad, who has previously called for Israel to be "wiped from the map" and described the Holocaust as a myth, told the protestors.

"You (the Western powers) should know that any government that stands by the Zionist regime from now on will not see any result but the hatred of the people," he added. "The wrath of the region's people is boiling."

"Efforts to stabilise this fraudulent regime have completely failed, thank God ... This regime has lost the rationale of its existence," the president said.

(Ahmadinejad described his warning as an "ultimatum" for Western powers.)

"You should not complain that we did not give a warning. We are saying this explicitly now."

"If a hurricane starts be rest assured that the dimensions of this hurricane will not be limited to the geographic borders of Palestine," he added. "This regime (Israel) will take its supporters to the bottom of the swamp."

"The best solution is for you to take all the components of the regime and take it away."

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/20/061020113636.w7x4yvau.html

What would you do now in the current reality? And don't bea coward and say, "It's not my fault Bush caused all of this so I don't need to fix it!" (I'm talking to you Colbert!)

scot- yep, you're a coward.

cee- how bout them Mets? I'll get to your posts about JJJEEEEZZZZZZZZZUUUUSSSSSSS when I have about an hour to read through them all.

Indieerica- you talk shit and then run away when faced with the consequenses, just like all liberal pussys. Everyone here can see who the liar and the coward is and it's you, but i don't expect you to ever realize that because you seem delusional. Now you go play with your imaginery friends, i'm gonna go hang out with real human beings.

indierik,

codas asked me several questions....I answered them nicely, respectfully. I am sorry the subject matter is not geared more towards you....6th grade flatulence jokes or MA rated video games about car theives.

"Everyone here can see who the liar and the coward is and it's you. . . "
Posted by: Anonymous at October 21, 2006 11:03 AM

I'm not the person posting as "anonymous". Who's the coward?

With regards to the Kevin Tillman statement:

I start with a very important statement of fact that Mr. Tillman correctly states in the beginning of his letter.

"How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we got out."

This is an eloquent statement of fact. The reality shows the duty and honor with which Mr. Tillman and his brother served. They deserve absolute respect and anyone who angrily reacts to anything he says disrespects every man and woman who has done the same. There will be no vitriol from me.

Two points.

1) Respectfully, I can argue against every claim Mr. Tillman makes after each, "Somehow." The same points have been screamed and cursed about for the last four years from both sides of the issue, In my opinion. it is now a waste of time to even get into them. Mr. Tillman can believe these conclusions, however, they are contentious and are not anymore factual because the person saying them served, sacrificed or is realted to someone who sacrificed. Ms. Sheehan, Mr. Tillman, and many other anti-war representatives need to discuss more than, "somehow," or similar issues, if they are to persuade me that our country is the villian in this current conflict.

2) Surrender can be defined as relinquishing to the power of another or to yield to the control of another. The quote I mentioned in the beginning of this post is the foundation of all service to another. The statement is a definition of surrender. Mr. Tillman did not use the word, but it is fact that all of us, soldier and private citizen alike, surrender to an authority in our own best interest. Met with the choice now, many want the US to surrender some authority to a different power, group. That group is part of the larger force supporting the goals of fundamentalist islam. This fact is clear and must be stated.

The Iraqi people are still vulnerable to those forces allied with fundamentalist islam. Withdaw of US support will surrender power to that entity. Mr. Tillman's theoretical discussion has a realistic result of changing the object of surrender. He is, in essence, admitting to surrendering to the same power he was fighting against as a soldier. I make this observation not to inflame or defame. I make this observation only to make clear what ultimately happens in all conflict, submission (surrender) or domination (victory).

He has the right to change his mind, just as I do. I do not agree with him and hope the policies of the country continue to unapologetically engage the violence of fundamentalist islam. The real world results for us and millions of people in the region are certain if surrender occurs in Iraq.

The "why aren't you fighting in Iraq" stuff is just more idiocy from Sir Loin and company. Why aren't they all driving hybred cars, living in houses that are solar, wind-powered, or below ground, boycotting all petroleum products, if white-searching for some person of color to recommend for their job in order to right historic wrongs, volunteering for the Peace Corp, and most importantly giving 40% of their income to the govt.

Again, it's just one more aha! petty illogical nip from the ankle-biter commandoes.

I make this observation only to make clear what ultimately happens in all conflict, submission (surrender) or domination (victory).

Posted by: Cecelia at October 22, 2006 01:06 PM

Can't a person surrender to the truth of the reality of a situation? Submiting to what your own mind tells you is right is not being dominated by another.

Codas,

You've misattributed that statement. Cee made it. Not me.

sorry. I'm watching the Steeler game. And they are scewing up.

codas,

I did not say that Mr. Tillman, or anyone, can't decide to stop the struggle, I said I do not agree with that decision. I would just like Mr. Tillman, and anyone else who feels the current conflict should be walked away from, to be honest. The other side has a goal. Just like Cheney says, they know they cannot win militarily, so, just like the north vietnamese, they are targeting the will to fight. Fine, that is a tactic, one that could prove victorious.....but victorious for fundamentalist islam. Mr. Tillman and others who want withdraw never discuss the logical conclusion of their demands, and that is dishonest. Surrender is surrender, victory is victory. How it happens is what has to be laid out and no one on the opposing side seems to want to, in detail, discuss the withdraw strategy and possible outcomes.

The emotional tactics are fine, anyone is allowed to use them, but do they solve the problems?

Anonymous at 11:03 am was me. I apparently forgot to sign in because i was half asleep.

Surrender is surrender, victory is victory.
Posted by: cee at October 22, 2006 06:23 PM

The fact is that compromise has to be part of the equation. You mark my word, Bush will withdrawl troops and he will rename what he is doing with some clever words to make it look like he won. I think some have this illusion that all we need is resolve and we can't lose. We are in our 4th year in Iraq. Who's fault is that? Is it the media? Is it the democrats? What has done more damage, A bad war plan or the opposition to it? 4 years and they can't control Baghdad. What is the logical conclusion of the demand to continue to do something that is failing. Why didn't the ones that planned the war plan for a withdraw and posible outcomes. They didn't. Blind obdediance to a failed policy is no victory for us.

Codas, Codas,Codas,

There you go again. You are still for NOTHING and against EVERYTHING ELSE.

Give us a viable alternative and we can debate it and perhaps reach a consensus. Otherwise, there is no point to any dialogue with you.

Janet Hawkins
AKA Grammie

There you go again. You are still for NOTHING and against EVERYTHING ELSE.

Posted by: Janet Hawkins at October 22, 2006 11:10 PM
Oh Janet. there you go again. Do you need a war plan? Would you be for anything other than what Bush is telling you that you should be for? What is the plan again? I keep forgetting. Democracy fo Iraq? I haven't heard that talk much lately. I just hear about how we don't want to cut and run. The truth is more awful than you want to accept. The original plan has been thrown out long ago. Now the only solution is to point the finger at the ones who warned them not to start this mess in the first place. The decider has no answers Janet. He is lost in a world he doesn't understand. He is the one you should be demanding an alternate plan from. They are going to have to leave there soon. You know they will not put more troops in there because that would expose their mistake of not doing it in the first place. They should have listened to Powell, and they didn't. And now it's a bloody mess. My plan is to not trust the people who made these decisions ever again. What's yours?

codas,

The only reason that this is happening is that the insurgents have decided to make Iraq a Vietnam, a Beirut, a Somalia. The opponents to democracy and freedom for the Iraqi people, (just like the communist Northern Vietnamese, and the fundamentalist muslims of conflicts past), have made a tactical decision to win a war of attrition. If the US leaves Iraq, they win the war. Period.

You and everyone else who has been opposed to the war from the beginning never address this fact. So, in lieu of contributing to solving the problem of defeat, the political opponents of George Bush only use the harsh realities of the war to attain power and advantage. You even did it in your response to Grammie, codas. Personal attacks on Bush, not understanding the nature of war and just saying, "throw the bums out," will not achieve any success or victory. This was the issue for me in 2004, and now in 2006....the democrats have a strategy of defeat through attrition, giving into the goal of the enemy. You and many on this post do not even acknowledge an enemy in fundamentalist islam, as does a very large portion of the democratic party. Looks very similar to the last and only war the US was soundly defeated....The Vietnam War. I guess nothing changes!

The only reason that this is happening is that the insurgents have decided to make Iraq a Vietnam, a Beirut, a Somalia. The opponents to democracy and freedom for the Iraqi people, (just like the communist Northern Vietnamese, and the fundamentalist muslims of conflicts past), have made a tactical decision to win a war of attrition. If the US leaves Iraq, they win the war. Period.

You and everyone else who has been opposed to the war from the beginning never address this fact.
Posted by: cee at October 23, 2006 07:53 AM

The insurgents, or whatever they may be called are trying to win. People do that when you attack them sometimes. The fact that I was against the whole thing from the start is because I understood more than most I think that we would be opposed. No flowers. Yes, they are opposed to us being there and they are trying to get us to leave. Rumsfield said "I don't think six months" remember? They sold us a big lie that Iraq would be happy to get shocked and awed. Some people didn't like it. Why would anyone think it would be otherwise. The idea that if we just would have stayed the course in Vietnam is the same mindset that creatd this whole problem in Iraq now. It's a lie. Nixon bombed the hell out of them and he was no liberal. "Although I gladly take a Nixon right now" If pointing out that a president is incompetent is a personal attack than , oh well.
The proof is in the pudding.

codas,

This is not a football game where the opposing sides just, "want to win." Nor is it a bar fight where self defense can be used as an excuse (we attacked them, they will fight back). It is war....The current enemy of the Iraqi government and its supporters (the US and coalition forces), want to promote their ongoing goal to establish power in the region and increase their worldwide prestige. Why can't you acknowledge this fact.

Just as in Vietnam, where Johnson, and then Nixon lost their nerve to wage total war to victory, the enemy could take advantage of the war of attrition to defeat a world superpower. The decreasing popular support for success in this conflict reflects then same loss during the mid and late sixties. Plus, support from Al Queda, Iran and Syria and other fundamentalist muslims inside and outside of Iraq for the insurgency mirrors the support of the communist bloc for the north vietnamese. Your historical reference to, "bombing the hell out of them," is arguable. The situation left by Johnson in 1968, both in Vietnam and in the USA, was difficult and Nixon should have done a lot more than he did to reverse the already declining support for the war. You cannot see the genocide that occurred in indochina after the US withdrew and just dismiss the decision to abandon the south vietnamese as moral. Same thing with Iraq.

Just as in Vietnam, where Johnson, and then Nixon lost their nerve to wage total war to victory, the enemy could take advantage of the war of attrition to defeat a world superpower.

Posted by: cee at October 23, 2006 11:06 AM

I'm sorry cee. It was "We the People of the Untited States of America" that decided that Vietnam wasn't worth the cost. Nixon didn't lose his nerve, he saw the writing on the wall. He inherited a bad situation, just as someone will inherhit this one. Perhaps the genocide after the fact may not have occured if we weren't there in the first place. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can dominate the world. We have the greatest military in the world but that doesn't mean we can win every fight. Iraq was and is wrong, wrong, wrong! In vietnam they crawled in their holes and waited for us to leave. We did. We will leave Iraq. We don't rule the world. Other people and priorities have to be dealt with in ways other than killing them. I will never believe otherwise. Cee, one more thing. I don't know what area of the country your from, but there are parts where I'm from that you wouldn't want to walk out the door to late. Or take a walk. We have not secured our country in case you didn't know. If you live among the well off, that's good for you. The rest of the country could do with some serious effort to secure taxpayers homes and property. There are American citizens who have more chance of being robbed, raped, or killed this very day than being killed by a terrorist. It is a political game that you are being sucked into. Wake up.

You gotta love Robin Williams......
Even if he's nuts! Leave it to Robin
Williams to come up with the perfect
plan. What we need now is for our
UN Ambassador to stand up and
repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to
argue with this logic!)

"I see a lot of people yelling for peace
but I have not heard of a plan for
peace. So, here's one plan."

1) "The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those "good 'ole' boys", we will never "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 9 0 days to get their affairs together and leave. Well give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are. They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available
to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort
to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while .

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given
to the army. The people who need
it most get very little, if anything.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island someplace. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak i s ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer
saying "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want a piece of me?' "

codas,

Well your last point goes right back to our original theological discussion (The christian as nonpacifist)....but more about that later.

"We The People," were wrong about Vietnam. You are wrong about Iraq. A treaty with another country should be respected, effectively, and we broke our word. Remember, we just did not decide to go into Vietnam on a whim, we had a legal treaty with the government (whether that was prudent or not is another discussion), and now the precident is set....things get tough.....the US pulls out, surrenders. Iraq will again reinforce that fact, and as an American who feels fighting for principle is right, I am afraid it diminishes us as a country.

With regard to your last point....I live in a middle class neighborhood and lock my door at night and lock my car doors. Crime is a reality all around me. Theologically, that same sinful nature in all of us is answered here and now with technology and punitive measures by my government. Wow, codas, people even lose their freedom for violating civil law....not very "Christlike" of us is it codas? I think Christ would not lock his doors, would he, codas?

Where is the line codas where we allow men to address the sinful nature when it violates our person, our safety, our freedom? Civil laws, prison, fines, death penalty, war.....mmmmm.....tough question, isn't it codas?

Where is the line codas where we allow men to address the sinful nature when it violates our person, our safety, our freedom? Civil laws, prison, fines, death penalty, war.....mmmmm.....tough question, isn't it codas?

Posted by: cee at October 23, 2006 12:59 PM

I think if we spent money investing in our country as easliy as we do funding wars we could go a long way in addressing the crime and lack of hope of many right here at home. No I am not talking about a welfare state. Give a guy a decent job and maybe he won't want to climb through your window for crack money. Hopelessnes leads to bad things. Why does our government care more about other countries than our own people? Cutting taxes while we are at war was a slap in the face to everyone who needs a police force, human services, health care... I could go on. Ask Bill Gates or Warren Buffet what they think of those tax cuts. One day you will understand that very rich people are shaping our domestic as well as foreighn policy. It has little if anything to do with moral values, and nothing to do with Christianity Cee.

It has everything to do with the heart of man, codas. The drive to self gratify whether through material things, power over others, phsycial pleasures or just being comfortable, is the base of the human heart. Remember our discussion of Paul's letter to the Romans chapter 1?.....verses 28-32 are pretty clear why there is sin:

"Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

So, if you are saying that money, jobs, food or any material thing is the solution to crime and war, I beg to differ. Compassion and Christ's love drives us to help the poor in the present, but the evil that comes from the sinful nature must be called what it is and the solution in the turth must be stated.

My point was simply to bring out to the front your willingness to require our secular government to provide police, healthcare, social services, education, etc. but yet war against a violent threat to the nation is not proper. Why? For centuries, people took care of themselves and lived simple, humble lives. In the US, it is now expected that every aspect of our lives will be provided for by our rulers (government). Meeting and preventing the violence from powers that cannot be met by the individual were the responsibility of the collective society/community. This is the reason for nations, states and collectives. It is the sin of the world that requires these systems you readily embrace for one purpose, then dismiss for another. It makes me dizzy.

Give me one example of a successful system of secular government that 100% solved envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice, and I'll shut up.

So, if you are saying that money, jobs, food or any material thing is the solution to crime and war, I beg to differ.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 23, 2006 03:30 PM

If you beg to differ, how can you support the military? Is the military a solution to crime and war? Do you think Christs redeming love was not sufficient in this case but is when it comes to our crime problems? Is it right to say bless you to someone while you leave them hungry? Can you justify war and then not agree that basic needs like food, shelter and security are not important? Do you want "the poeple" to provide it, like vigilanties? You say, "For centuries, people took care of themselves and lived simple, humble lives." They also were robed, murdered and enslaved by some of their God fearing neighbors. Give me one example of a successful system of religious government that 100% solved envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice, and I'll shut up. You make me the devils advocate and I don't want to be. I believe in Christ. I also believe that love our neighbor was his command not a suggestion. Do you think the churches and peoples families should be the only caretakers? What if your family is a bunch of criminals? What if you don't believe in church? I don't understand what you want. Do you want a theocracy? Do you believe that the bible should be the law of the land. When has that ever worked? We are a secular country cee. You have freedom to practice your faith but not to legislate it.