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    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    November 18, 2006
    Judges Rule in OlbyWatch Debate: We Have a Winner!

    Recently, Doug Krile and OlbyWatch Editor Robert Cox debated the burning question Does Olbermann blurring the line between news, comedy and commentary undermine the NBC News Brand?. After a spirited debate going four rounds, we then convened an expert panel of judges to critique the debate and declare a winner:

    Eric Deggans, St. Petersburg Times, The Feed

    Dr. Victoria Zdrok, Penthouse, SexySexpert.com, PlanetVictoria.com

    Aaron Barnhart, Kansas City Star, TV Barn

    Steve Spruiell. NRO's Media Blog

    Now the results are in.

    The envelope please...

    __________________

    Eric Deggans

    Deggans is the television critic at the St. Petersburg Times where he writes a daily column on the TV page. His stories appear frequently in the Floridian and entertainment sections. He blogs at The Feed, a blog on TV, media and modern life. Deggans has served as music, media and TV critic at various times over 10 years. He also writes for the Huffington Post and Newsmax.

    "I don't think either side won, to be honest. First, let's note that, even though Countdown's ratings are rising. Olbermann's audience is infinitesimal compared to the network's ratings. Frankly, Olbermann will not affect NBC's news brand because not enough people see what he's doing, especially compared to the audience watching other NBC News products such as Dateline, the Today show and Nightly News.

    Secondly, I'm not sure I see what the big deal is here. Everybody from Lou Dobbs to Brit Hume to Chris Matthews has walked a fine line between commentator and news anchor. Fox has pioneered the blurring of lines between commentary and news reporting and Dobbs and Matthews will be front and center for their channels' coverage of the midterm elections.

    Is Olbermann sounding lefty these days? Sure, he is. Do viewers make much of a distinction between him, Chris Matthews, Tucker Carlson and Joe Scarborough? No, they don't. And in that list I just wrote, you'll find two conservative commentators.

    If real news breaks during Tucker's show or Scarborough's show, you better believe they'll wind up reading it off the teleprompter like any other anchor. And NBC News has already featured Carlson, Matthews and Scarborough delivering political analysis on the Today show right alongside Washington bureau chief Tim Russert, further blurring the lines between commentary and news reporting.

    Hate to be the Debbie Downer here dudes, but the cable news audience has already decided it doesn't care about this kind of role blending -- and if they don't care, cable news executives don't care either. And expecting a guy like Olbermann to stop his shtick when it is sparking ratings is like expecting somebody to stuff toothpaste back in the tube: an impossibility.

    Lastly, I can't believe I've been included with such a cool group of judges. I'm sure they'll have much more compelling thoughts about this whole argument."

    __________________

    Dr. Victoria Zdrok

    Dr. Zdrok is an editor at Penthouse where she writes two columns - "Vices and Vanities" and "Ask Dr.Z". Zdrok, a lawyer and pyschologist, is a leading "sexpert", dating coach and relationship advisor. She can be heard every Wednesday night on "Sex Connection" on Howard Stern's Howard 101 channel on Sirius satellite radio. She maintains a sex advice site at SexySexpert.com and a glamour site at PlanetVictoria.com. Zdrok holds the distinction of being the first Playboy Playmate from the Soviet Union (Miss October 1994) and was the 2004 Penthouse Pet of the Year.

    "Why should Fox News have the only "fair and balanced" newscasts on TV? Every well-read person to the left of Dick Cheney's speechwriter knows that Fox spits out neocon propaganda in the guise of "news;" but the average viewer doesn't have the time or the inclination to figure this out. Worn out by work, screaming kids and a nagging spouse, the average viewer tunes into the news mainly for a little entertainment and some quick headlines; and, in that environment, any strongly stated opinion sounds like the True Gospel. For this reason, the liberal majority in this country needs a comparable voice, and Olbermann fills that bill. He's the only newscaster in this country who could face down Ann Coulter in a mano-a-mano of cliched insults; and so the media desparately needs him! The news networks can't be "fair" or "distinguished" when they are dealing with a pack of lying hyenas armed with a bushel of Rovian sound bites. Olbermann's biting satire and "tell it like it is" opinions on the issues of the day are the only fingers in the dike which are today holding back the deluge of Right Wing hypocritical hyperbole. For that reason, he's a credit to the NBC News brand.

    All that said, I find that Robert Cox wins the debate on style and technique. He's wrong on the issue, but he defends his losing position with more eloquence and seemingly studied argument. Unfortunately, too many liberals these days engage in Cox's style of gentlemanly debate and argue for "balance" in their news, while their Right Wing opponents win all the propaganda wars. We all should remember that the Declaration of Independence was not based on "fact" ("All men are created equal" means slavery is OK? A tax on tea to pay for the French and Indian War was a serious imposition on Colonial liberty?). But as a piece of propaganda, the Declaration was one of the greatest manifestos in human history! If our Founding Fathers could write their "news" in the form of such propaganda, so should we who seek to uphold their values."

    __________________

    Aaron Barnhart

    Barnhart is the television critic at the Kansas City Star where his stories appear frequently on the cover of the Star's FYI and A&E sections and page one. He blogs at TV Barn. You can hear Barnhart on the radio Mondays at 4:15 PM CT with Paul Harris on KMOX-AM (now streaming live at Harris Online), monthly with Walt Bodine, on KCUR-FM and Mondays at 11 AM ET with Chip Franklin on WBAL-AM in Baltimore.

    "Doug Krile never engaged the debate. He didn't even get interested in the debate until Round Four, when he finally started to put some gusto into his arguments. Which were, mostly, that the ends (ratings) justify the means (KO's peculiar brand of journalism) and that TV news-talk is showbiz, so "lighten up, people." This, as Bob Cox noted again and again, is a pitiful justification for KO and "Countdown." As I argued in a recent Sunday piece the very fact that KO is succeeding in making inroads, at least at MSNBC, where he is now their top-rated personality, means that he could have quite far-reaching effects across the organization. This is not Geraldo redux, for those who remember his run of glory at NBC News in the late 1990s. Olbermann is anchoring the closest thing to a nightly newscast of record that MSNBC has, he is espousing what we can safely assume are points of view very popular among his peers, and for those two reasons alone no one should take his growing influence at NBC lightly.

    Cox also gets credit for bringing up KO's failure to attribute many of his sources, though the habit goes beyond left-wing blogs to include several of my colleagues in the MSM, at least one of whom has told me s/he will never write about KO again because "Countdown" lifted a clever piece s/he wrote, sans attribution, and turned it into a clever segment on the show.

    That said ... there are good arguments to be made against Cox, whose energy was wasted in this debate trying to rouse Krile from his slumber. First of all, his ratings analysis is weak, in part because he tries to argue KO's insignificance with it, a fact that is immediately run over by the sheer volume of complaint on this blog. You can't go on and on and on every single day about how KO is ruining MSNBC/NBC/journalism and at the same time insist that his ratings suck and it's the MSM's fault we're all talking about him. Well, you could argue both points at the same time, but everyone this side of Mark Koldys will assume you're at least half full of shit.

    It's not just the October ratings - third quarter 2006 Nielsens show that KO is the number one news personality at MSNBC. Is this in part because HUT levels (households using TV) are higher at 8 than at 7, when Hardball is on, and many more people are available to watch Keith than were available to Chris? Undoubtedly...but Chris didn't want to be in Bill O'Reilly's rear-view, either, so KO took the thankless time slot and reaped the reward. David Letterman's people, who have plenty of experience spinning Nielsens and wouldn't be bamboozled by an NBC ratings memo, recently booked KO on the show, a few days before O'Reilly appeared with Dave. Clearly they think he's a hot commodity. Yes, Dave loves sports and sportscasters, and a lot of the booking of guests these days is about keeping the host engaged, but still, if KO was a ratings loser, no way he gets on CBS.

    But to the larger point. You could argue that by reviving the bracketed commentary segment in a newscast, and giving it teeth (and not the false teeth you see on the "freeSpeech" segment of the CBS Evening Snooze), KO has made journalism matter again by tying facts to ideas. Every story counts on the "Countdown," because instead of exhausting his precious airtime giving you all sides and then more or less saying, "Stay tuned," KO's attitude is: You know what? We're smart people around here. We're soaking in this stuff all day. You viewers are pretty smart, too. You've got access to a lot of news media. What say you we give you the facts, then tell you what they really mean, and dispense with all this on-the-one-hand nonsense, and you check out some sources and don't be too surprised if you find out, hey, we were RIGHT.

    That, in a nutshell, seems to be the KO approach. Temperamentally, he's really not that far from David Brinkley, now is he? Brinkley was a first-class elitist snob, and did a poor job disguising that fact on air. And yet, millions watched. And journalism did not die a horrible death after falling in the shower. And by the way, Paul Harvey's being on ABC News Radio all these years has not been terrible for ABC News Radio, either (what's terrible is that Entercom radio recently decided they just can't find any room for Paul Harvey on any of the EIGHT radio frequencies they own in Kansas City, and so in this top 30 Heartland market you can only listen to him on the Internet ... but I digress).

    Those are arguments that should've been made, but weren't. Had they been made, the keeper of OlbermannWatch might have been forced to dig deeper and offer more than his usual points about how KO is ruining NBC News. As it is, Bob Cox did make strong if superficial arguments, which lacking serious challenge carried the debate."

    __________________


    Steve Spruiell

    Spruiell is a media reporter for National Review and runs NRO's Media Blog. Spruiell has a Journalism degree and a a Masters in Public Affairs from the LBJ School at the University of Texas. Spruiell holds the distinction of being both criticized by liberal media watchdog Media Matters for America and being award a bronze medal by Keith Olbermann as the the Worst Person in the World.

    "Doug staked too much of his argument on the hypothetical that, if the Democrats were in power, Olbermann would be just as tough on them as he is on Republicans. First, Olbermann's an ideological leftist; to the extent that he's hard on Dems, it's for not being tougher on Republicans or more committed to leftist policy goals. Second, we already know how Olbermann treats Dems when they're in power -- in 1998 he resigned rather than continue to cover Bill Clinton's impeachment for MSNBC. I think that to a certain extent, Doug has a point that news shows are going to have to mix more opinion and light fare in with their serious reports if they want to continue to get ratings -- mostly because by the time the evening news comes on, we've already read the day's news online. But there's a difference between hosting an opinionated, whimiscal news broadcast and believing yourself to be the second coming of Edward R. Murrow when you're really just a filthy, loathsome propagandist with an hour of cable news time to burn. Decision: Robert Cox."

    John Amato

    I am sorry to report that Amato backed out of his committment to serve as a judge not "at the last minute" but "after the last minute". Amato waited more than a week - until after I had published the list of debate judges on OlbyWatch - to inform me that he was no longer willing to particpate. I am not terribly happy about this as it will cause some (i.e., OlbyLoons) to question whether he had agreed to participate in the first place. For those doubters, you can email me and I will forward you a copy of my emails and IMs with John so you can judge for yourself.

    Reader Survey

    We also asked you, our readers, to vote as well. We asked "Does Olbermann blurring the line between news, comedy and commentary undermine the NBC News Brand?"

    A. Yes, Cox won the debate 75%
    B. No, Krile won the debate 19%
    C. Not sure 5%

    ===============

    UPDATE:

    Extreme Mortman: Cox Wins A K.O. Over K.O.
    Instapundit: A victory for Robert Cox.
    National Review Media Blog: Olbermann's Latest Smear, Plus I Judge a Debate


    Posted by Robert Cox | Permalink | Comments (76) | | View blog reactions
    user-pic

    76 Comments

    Holy crap. The hot chick is a complete moron. The constitution is propaganda? No sweetie. The federalist papers were propaganda. The constitution is a legal document. This certainly explains why you are most certainly an ends-justify-the-means type of person, instead of a "strict constructionist".

    And if she thinks Olberchicken would ever "face down" Ann Coulter... that would be something to see.

    Holy crap. Crash is a moron. She stated the "Declaration of Independence was not based on "fact"", nowhere does she mention the Constitution.

    Have you even read the Federalist Papers? Or perhaps you're just ignorant of the core definition of "propaganda"? How does a series of reasoned arguments back-and-forth between great educated minds constitute "Things that must be sent forth" (from the Latin root)--IE a one-way street of information dissemination.

    Final ironic point. "ends justify the means" might apply to someone completely twisting a few written statements, misdirecting their points and subjects in order to ameliorate one's insulted ideology.

    I'd like to that Robert, once again, for the chance to talk about this issue. I'm quite pleased to have received almost 20 percent of the vote, given the obviously anti-Olbermann tone of this site and the majority of those who post comments here. And, my thanks to the judges who took the time to write some critiques that made very valid points. I'll continue to read the posts over here, since they do (at times) contain valid criticism of Countdown and Keith. It's been fun, gang!

    Well,,, the rightwing judge stayed, and the left wing judge bailed... I am so shocked,,, I mean it is not like this site is not above fixing poll results seeing that has happened before in polls.

    I'd like to thank Robert, once again, for the chance to talk about this issue. I'm quite pleased to have received almost 20 percent of the vote, given the obviously anti-Olbermann tone of this site and the majority of those who post comments here. And, my thanks to the judges who took the time to write some critiques that made very valid points. I'll continue to read the posts over here, since they do (at times) contain valid criticism of Countdown and Keith. It's been fun, gang!

    Dr. Victoria Zdrok was kicked off of Howard 100/101 because she had nothing to add. That should have been the clue to Mr Cox.

    She was not "kicked off" dumbass. She is on maternity leave.

    Well.. then Sirius had better be told about that, because apparently they have no clue.

    Jeez O'leily, does not knowing what you are talking about EVER stop you from posting a comment?

    John is well familiar with Olbermann Watch and has been since we launched so it is not like he was duped into serving as a judge not knowing that Olbermann Watch is an anti-KO blog. The more obvious lesson might be that conservatives honor their comments and liberals don't except that Eric Deggans is a liberal and he honored his committment. So, maybe this is not a liberal v. conservative thing and there is no lesson to be drawn other than I won't be counting on John in the future.

    Good grief O'Leily, stop embarrassing yourself. Maybe we need to call you mom and have her hide your keyboard for a few days.

    I'd like to thank Crash and O'leily for demonstrating once again some striking examples of OlbyThink - making up "facts" and attacking people for things they never said. Great work guys!

    You people just can't deal with the fact that your hero Bush screwed up royally. Now you have to single out Keith to blame for everything. Bill O'Reilly is the worst person in the world, and if you want to start a Jake Watch, go right ahead. Do your worst, jackass.

    Good idea Jake, we will make a blog all about refuting the comments of some drive-by, anonymous commenter on OlbyWatch. Let me think about that and I'll get back to you.

    After hearing Dick Morris call John Murtha an ultra liberal, I had to look up Dick Morris and see why he switched from working with the Clintons to why he acts the way he does about them now... I have found the reason why...

    The Hooker, Line And Sinker
    By Howard Kurtz
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, September 4, 1996; Page B01

    Sherry Rowlands, the suddenly famous Virginia call girl, is taking all the credit for the downfall of presidential adviser Dick Morris. She says the Republicans had nothing to do with it.

    "The only person in the world I knew politically was Dick Morris," she told the syndicated tabloid show "Hard Copy" in her first television interview. "Who do you call? I mean . . . you don't go in the phone book and look up Bob Dole." The two-part "Hard Copy" interview is scheduled to air on Baltimore's Channel 2 tonight and tomorrow night at 12:05 a.m. .

    As for Morris's downfall, Rowlands said: "Someone as intelligent as he is should have kept his lip buttoned when he unzipped his pants. I mean, how can you maneuver worlds, and he can't even control what he's doing in his own room with a paid lady?"

    Morris's resignation was announced hours before President Clinton delivered his acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention last Thursday night. His departure came after the Star, a supermarket tabloid, published allegations by the $200-an-hour prostitute that she had a long-running relationship with Morris. The Star, which says it paid Rowlands less than $50,000 for the story, made her available to "Hard Copy." A spokesman for the program, which often pays for interviews, declined to say whether Rowlands was paid.

    In an interview with Time magazine published yesterday, Morris again declined to address the allegations, "even if this episode destroys me." He said he would not be advising Clinton informally: "I've sent myself out of the game. I'm not going to run the campaign from the locker room."

    His wife, attorney Eileen McGann, posed with her husband for a Time photographer. She told Time she was "very upset" about the Star report but that "I thought it would be destructive to ask about the details and try to find out what was true. I'm an adult. I accepted Dick's apology."

    Time's piece was its second straight cover story on Morris, the first person to be accorded such prominence since O.J. Simpson. Newsweek also gave cover billing to Morris's downfall.

    In the "Hard Copy" interview, taped last weekend with co-anchor Barry Nolan, Rowlands said she went public because "it has to be told, whether I'm a call girl who'll blabber or whatever they want to call it, fine. But wake up, America. I mean, if he told me, who else did he tell?"

    Asked about Morris's wife, Rowlands said: "I'm sure this is hurting her, and was not meant to hurt her. He's the one who hurt her, not me. . . . He loves his wife -- that's why he would pay me . . . to come see him. That makes him feel he is not cheating on his wife. This is business as long as he's paying for it."

    She quoted Morris as saying: "My wife probably has an idea that I fool around, but she really doesn't have solid evidence. . . . She does tell me if I need to do that, please be discreet."

    Rowlands quoted the political consultant as saying of his influence over the president: "They all know who holds the leash . . . that's around Clinton's neck."

    Rowlands also recounted an episode in which she said Morris let her listen in on a phone conversation with the president:

    "Hillary answered the phone and she said the president was exercising at the moment and she would get him . . . and when [Clinton] came back he sounds really mad . . . and he said, 'Look, Dick, I would prefer you not use this phone anymore. You can understand Hillary is upset, my wife is not well, you know with all this Whitewater trial and everything, she is not well. You know the regular lines, do not call the private residence anymore.' And he was embarrassed and he said, 'I'm sorry, sir' and hung up."

    © Copyright 1996 The Washington Post Company

    wtf does Bush and Morris have to do with this topic?????

    I know it's all part of the lib playbook to _somehow_ include W in everything, but good grief!

    All that's left is hitler....

    BTW, Robert, great site. There should be more like this. Thanks! You're doing a great service here.

    Jdawg,, no I could have easily done trhis about David Brock, Arianna Huffinngton or David Horowitz. What causes an idealogue from one side to switch over so vehemently., I would like to know what caused those other three to switch over.

    Robert:

    Can I suggest you to change the color back to red please? No one dies, I guess.

    Sheesh. It looks to me like what we have is one judge backing out (from embarrassment, perhaps?) one saying no one won, two saying it was a waste of time and trying to re-do the debate themselves, and one (a downlist NRO dude) not so much judging as offering Cox new rhetorical coinages to use against the evil leftist hoardes.

    Congratulations on that "win" Cox. If you read the actual opinions, I think the consensus is that this was pretty worthless.

    Bill O:

    In the case of Arianna Huffington, she was always a lib, but she spoke like a conservative when she was married to her husband, who, at one time, was a conservative republican running for the Senate in California. I'm not sure if he died, or what, but shortly thereafter, she reverted to her true ideology.

    David Horowitz has a different story, having been brought up in the wacky 60's, raised by libs, etc., and saw the light. Kinda like George Orwell after his visit to the Soviet Union. That's when he wrote 1984.

    Don't know about David Brock, tho.

    Michael Huffington came "out of the closet" in an Esquire magazine interview with...David Brock.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_1999_Feb_2/ai_53729225

    Robert:

    I stand corrected, thanks. I didn't follow that election very close back then - had other priorities, but I know she talked like a conservative when he was running.

    "That said ... there are good arguments to be made against Cox, whose energy was wasted in this debate trying to rouse Krile from his slumber. First of all, his ratings analysis is weak, in part because he tries to argue KO's insignificance with it, a fact that is immediately run over by the sheer volume of complaint on this blog. You can't go on and on and on every single day about how KO is ruining MSNBC/NBC/journalism and at the same time insist that his ratings suck and it's the MSM's fault we're all talking about him. Well, you could argue both points at the same time, but everyone this side of Mark Koldys will assume you're at least half full of shit."

    Uhhh... that is a bit generous. But I still say this site is providing a great service.

    JDawg... I remember Adrianna H when she used to be on Politically Incorrect, and if she was a leftwinger at the time she certainly hid it well. Being a longtime politico I knew about David Huffington and his sexuality, and while Adrianna is an atractive lady I could see how her cackle could drive a man into craving manmeat. Writing the article about Huffington's sexuality was I am sure not enough to make his switch sides. I tend to think that Brock goes where he percieves the money is available. David Horowitz went from someone I liked to someone I would like to poke in the eye with a pencil, repeatedly.

    "I would like to poke in the eye with a pencil, repeatedly"

    Get it? See, it's "funny" when libs make "jokes" advocating violence but when conservatives do it then its TERRORISM!!!!

    Robert,,Do you not see a difference in some person making a comment on a blog as compared to sending a material along with notes through the US Mail ? I mean talking about slipping poison into Steven Breyers' creme de' something was noteworthy because who it came from. However there were no charges against Mr. Coulter because thankfully in America we can still say what we want without someone from the government knocking on our door. However,, if the 2006 election went the other way who is to say if that would not be the situation.

    Some comments on the judges' rulings & comments:

    Eric Deggans -
    "I don't think either side won, to be honest." C'mon, man, stop waffling. :-)
    "First, let's note that, even though Countdown's ratings are rising." Rising? Not really. Only in certain demographics and then only if you really spin it.
    "Everybody from Lou Dobbs to Brit Hume to Chris Matthews has walked a fine line between commentator and news anchor." Yeah, but Eric, Keith Olbermann's line seems to be about 5 yards wide and crooked to boot. He wants and sometimes claims to be an anchor but a serious new journalist he ain't. And frankly, considering the fabrications, cheap shots, innuendos and kooky conspiracy theories he has espoused over the past, I and countless others can't and won't consider him a commentator to be taken seriously either.

    Dr. Victoria Zdrok -
    "the liberal majority in this country needs a comparable voice, and Olbermann fills that bill" 'Scuse me? Liberal majority? Even though the liberals may have won a majority in the House and Senate, need I remind you that the past two Presidential elections showed a conservative majority which in this case takes the country in as a whole rather that separate elections. However be that as it may, the liberals in this country already have many "voices" - ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNBC, AP, Reuters, LA Times, NY Times, Newsweek, Time Magazine, etc. Olbermann is merely one of the more crass "voices" among the liberal media. I also find your claim that "Every well-read person to the left of Dick Cheney's speechwriter knows that Fox spits out neocon propaganda in the guise of 'news'" to be wholely without merit and merely a cheap ad hominem attack. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that Fox News is completely and wholely conservative in every way. If you subscribe to the liberal agenda (and I think you do considering your misuse of the term "neocon"), then you would also demand MORE conservative networks to make it more equal to the overwhelming liberal news networks out there (see list above). I believe the liberals have a term for it: affirmative action. But, as with most liberals, you whine about Fox News pushing "neocon propaganda in the guise of 'news'" even though the preponderance of evidence proves otherwise. Fine. We won't confuse you with the facts. If you ever decide to join the rest of us in the land of reality, drop us a line. Otherwise, we'll leave you to your fantasyland bereft of facts. This woman earned a Doctorate? I didn't see much evidence of it in her response.

    Aaron Barnhart -
    "that the ends (ratings) justify the means (KO's peculiar brand of journalism) and that TV news-talk is showbiz, so 'lighten up, people.' This, as Bob Cox noted again and again, is a pitiful justification for KO and 'Countdown.'" Finally, the first judge to exhibit some common sense. Lame justifications are never to be taken legitimately no matter if they are from John Kerry or George Bush. Instead they should be exposed and then explained why they are weak and ineffectual from a logical and intellectual manner. Those who are able to do so tend to have credibility and also tend to make the most valid points. George Will is a good example of this. Keith Olbermann is not.
    "Cox also gets credit for bringing up KO's failure to attribute many of his sources" Or in many cases selectively attributing. Recently he took materials from conservative sources but conveniently omitted citing them while in the same show he cited liberal sources. Merely an example of "Olbermann hypocrisy" (tm).
    "First of all, his ratings analysis is weak, in part because he tries to argue KO's insignificance with it, a fact that is immediately run over by the sheer volume of complaint on this blog." I think what's most objectionable concerning Olbermann and ratings is that he has to "cook the books" so to speak to bolster his sagging ego in terms of ratings. In short, Olbermann and his handlers have to really be creative in describing the numbers selectively to make it appear KO's ratings are better but when viewed in comparison with his competition and via all Neilsen catagories it becomes apparent KO and his show are pretty much an insignificant blip on the ratings radar. However as Keith would have us believe, he's rapidly gaining on his arch-enemy Bill O'Reilly (whom I believe Olbermann has a secret crush on -- that was sarcasm, folks) and implies he should overtake in the ratings any day now. But in reality, KO's show is usually at the bottom of the pile or darned close to it.
    "third quarter 2006 Nielsens show that KO is the number one news personality at MSNBC" Yeah, but that's like saying "limburger is the stinkiest of all the stinky cheeses." None of the "news personalities" at MSNBC stand out in any way, fashion or form. So if KO is the biggest insignificant blip on the cable radar, what does that say about the rest of MSNBC's on-air folks? The best player on a last place team is still on a last place team.
    "KO has made journalism matter again by tying facts to ideas" Whoa there, big fella! That's where you lose it. Putting Olbermann and journalism in the same sentence is oxymoronic. Olbermann, irregardless of his claim to the otherwise, is no journalist. He routinely violates pretty much every journalistic standard there is on a nightly basis and his idea of journalistic ethics is to put on a Bill O'Reilly mask and throw out Nazi salutes. No, Aaron, Keith is, at best, a talking head former sportcaster who is a journalism-wanna-be. To paraphrase: I know journalists and Keith Olbermann is no journalist.
    "KO's attitude is: ... What say you we give you the facts, then tell you what they really mean, and dispense with all this on-the-one-hand nonsense, and you check out some sources and don't be too surprised if you find out, hey, we were RIGHT." The problem with your point here is that we (meaning the public) are checking out many sources and finding out KO is many times WRONG. Sometimes INTENTIONALLY WRONG (i.e. - deception). But he tries to pass of innuendo and fabrication as factual far too many times. This is yet another reason why he fails true journalistic standards, but he knows the vast majority of his particular tiny audience either don't or won't check legitimate sources and will take his word for it. This is a thing KO routinely abuses and is a reason why OlbermannWatch is necessary.

    I'll have to get to Steve Spruiell and John Amato's comments later since I have run out of time and have to log offline for the time being. However of all the judges, the least intellectual and weakest of the lot is, in my opinion, the sole one with a title of "dr." Victoria's diatribe contained typical uber-liberal talking points and lacked substance and validity. Her comments read more along the lines of a KO fan club member rather than an analytical mind. I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that Victoria is liberal in her politics based upon her comments and misuse of the term "neocon" (I doubt she even truly knows it correct definition and its origin as a word). It just goes to show once again that just because a person has received a doctorate doesn't make them correct nor intelligent, just trainable.

    Bill O':

    Even back when Arianna Huff was on PI, she was a raging lefty. She did hide it well, but many suspected she was really a raving moonbat. Since then she has proven beyond a doubt she suffers from BDS and is not only a raving moonbat, she runs one of the wackiest lefty blogs on the planet.

    I agree that cackle of hers would make any sane man go crazy, but I can't speak for the, um, man-meat part. Maybe you have a different perspective on it.

    BTW, the "poke in the eye" thing _is_ over the top, dontcha think? I have to agree with Robert on that. Did Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, or Laura Ingraham inspire you to that?

    Some comments on the judges' rulings & comments:

    Eric Deggans -
    "I don't think either side won, to be honest." C'mon, man, stop waffling. :-)
    "First, let's note that, even though Countdown's ratings are rising." Rising? Not really. Only in certain demographics and then only if you really spin it.
    "Everybody from Lou Dobbs to Brit Hume to Chris Matthews has walked a fine line between commentator and news anchor." Yeah, but Eric, Keith Olbermann's line seems to be about 5 yards wide and crooked to boot. He wants and sometimes claims to be an anchor but a serious new journalist he ain't. And frankly, considering the fabrications, cheap shots, innuendos and kooky conspiracy theories he has espoused over the past, I and countless others can't and won't consider him a commentator to be taken seriously either.

    Dr. Victoria Zdrok -
    "the liberal majority in this country needs a comparable voice, and Olbermann fills that bill" 'Scuse me? Liberal majority? Even though the liberals may have won a majority in the House and Senate, need I remind you that the past two Presidential elections showed a conservative majority which in this case takes the country in as a whole rather that separate elections. However be that as it may, the liberals in this country already have many "voices" - ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNBC, AP, Reuters, LA Times, NY Times, Newsweek, Time Magazine, etc. Olbermann is merely one of the more crass "voices" among the liberal media. I also find your claim that "Every well-read person to the left of Dick Cheney's speechwriter knows that Fox spits out neocon propaganda in the guise of 'news'" to be wholely without merit and merely a cheap ad hominem attack. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that Fox News is completely and wholely conservative in every way. If you subscribe to the liberal agenda (and I think you do considering your misuse of the term "neocon"), then you would also demand MORE conservative networks to make it more equal to the overwhelming liberal news networks out there (see list above). I believe the liberals have a term for it: affirmative action. But, as with most liberals, you whine about Fox News pushing "neocon propaganda in the guise of 'news'" even though the preponderance of evidence proves otherwise. Fine. We won't confuse you with the facts. If you ever decide to join the rest of us in the land of reality, drop us a line. Otherwise, we'll leave you to your fantasyland bereft of facts. This woman earned a Doctorate? I didn't see much evidence of it in her response.

    Aaron Barnhart -
    "that the ends (ratings) justify the means (KO's peculiar brand of journalism) and that TV news-talk is showbiz, so 'lighten up, people.' This, as Bob Cox noted again and again, is a pitiful justification for KO and 'Countdown.'" Finally, the first judge to exhibit some common sense. Lame justifications are never to be taken legitimately no matter if they are from John Kerry or George Bush. Instead they should be exposed and then explained why they are weak and ineffectual from a logical and intellectual manner. Those who are able to do so tend to have credibility and also tend to make the most valid points. George Will is a good example of this. Keith Olbermann is not.
    "Cox also gets credit for bringing up KO's failure to attribute many of his sources" Or in many cases selectively attributing. Recently he took materials from conservative sources but conveniently omitted citing them while in the same show he cited liberal sources. Merely an example of "Olbermann hypocrisy" (tm).
    "First of all, his ratings analysis is weak, in part because he tries to argue KO's insignificance with it, a fact that is immediately run over by the sheer volume of complaint on this blog." I think what's most objectionable concerning Olbermann and ratings is that he has to "cook the books" so to speak to bolster his sagging ego in terms of ratings. In short, Olbermann and his handlers have to really be creative in describing the numbers selectively to make it appear KO's ratings are better but when viewed in comparison with his competition and via all Neilsen catagories it becomes apparent KO and his show are pretty much an insignificant blip on the ratings radar. However as Keith would have us believe, he's rapidly gaining on his arch-enemy Bill O'Reilly (whom I believe Olbermann has a secret crush on -- that was sarcasm, folks) and implies he should overtake in the ratings any day now. But in reality, KO's show is usually at the bottom of the pile or darned close to it.
    "third quarter 2006 Nielsens show that KO is the number one news personality at MSNBC" Yeah, but that's like saying "limburger is the stinkiest of all the stinky cheeses." None of the "news personalities" at MSNBC stand out in any way, fashion or form. So if KO is the biggest insignificant blip on the cable radar, what does that say about the rest of MSNBC's on-air folks? The best player on a last place team is still on a last place team.
    "KO has made journalism matter again by tying facts to ideas" Whoa there, big fella! That's where you lose it. Putting Olbermann and journalism in the same sentence is oxymoronic. Olbermann, irregardless of his claim to the otherwise, is no journalist. He routinely violates pretty much every journalistic standard there is on a nightly basis and his idea of journalistic ethics is to put on a Bill O'Reilly mask and throw out Nazi salutes. No, Aaron, Keith is, at best, a talking head former sportcaster who is a journalism-wanna-be. To paraphrase: I know journalists and Keith Olbermann is no journalist.
    "KO's attitude is: ... What say you we give you the facts, then tell you what they really mean, and dispense with all this on-the-one-hand nonsense, and you check out some sources and don't be too surprised if you find out, hey, we were RIGHT." The problem with your point here is that we (meaning the public) are checking out many sources and finding out KO is many times WRONG. Sometimes INTENTIONALLY WRONG (i.e. - deception). But he tries to pass of innuendo and fabrication as factual far too many times. This is yet another reason why he fails true journalistic standards, but he knows the vast majority of his particular tiny audience either don't or won't check legitimate sources and will take his word for it. This is a thing KO routinely abuses and is a reason why OlbermannWatch is necessary.

    I'll have to get to Steve Spruiell and John Amato's comments later since I have run out of time and have to log offline for the time being. However of all the judges, the least intellectual and weakest of the lot is, in my opinion, the sole one with a title of "dr." Victoria's diatribe contained typical uber-liberal talking points and lacked substance and validity. Her comments read more along the lines of a KO fan club member rather than an analytical mind. I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that Victoria is liberal in her politics based upon her comments and misuse of the term "neocon" (I doubt she even truly knows it correct definition and its origin as a word). It just goes to show once again that just because a person has received a doctorate doesn't make them correct nor intelligent, just trainable.

    What was the most well greased Fox News mantra in the last Presidential election...? Oh yea, "Flip Flopper"

    David Horowitz is the poster child of this catch phrase repeated 800 times a day by every media lap dog of the Republican Party about John Kerry.

    Horowitz's phony credentials as a "60's radical" is equally phony as his modern day conservative charger out to rid America, Joseph McCarthy style, of any and all college professors who voice their outrage about the direction our nation has turned since the "Regan Revolution" when the neo-cons began their accent to total power.

    Horowitz is now, and always has been, a fake. Check out this woman's page and pan down to the only correspondence she could get from "Mr.Horowits", as she calls him, and behold the parasitic nature of his true intentions - making a buck from the fruits of his efforts to create a crisis where there is none. An effort to tap into the far right's long campaign against their most formidable foe - educated educators. Nothing worse than a college professor of minority decent to the uneducated self hating narrow minded xenophobic rightwing nut jobs. Horowitz knows there is plenty of money to be made by painting an extreme far left conspiracy by college professors across this nation. What is even more bizarre is his solution to this created conspiracy - a by the book Joseph McCarthy style of screening to cleanse our schools of "left wing radicals". A true patriot defending democracy and freedom of expression!

    http://c2005.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-david-horowitz-is-piece-of-work.html

    My apologies for attributing the wrong document in Mrs. Zdrok's posting. I read all the judges comments and then posted. I obviously did not read closely enough. The Declaration of Independence is most certainly a piece of propaganda. As were the Federalist Papers, whose main purpose was to promote support for a constitution, which is what I mistakenly attributed to Mrs. Zdrok's propaganda claim, thus the tie in with the Federalist Papers. I am not sure what Mandeep is talking about. If ever there was an example of propaganda, it is the Federalist Papers.

    Once again my apologies for both the mistake and condecension. I stand corrected.

    Mr. Coward,

    Is it your contention that the overwhelming majority of college professors aren't liberal? They are conservative? I assure you they are overwhelmingly liberal, and most of them are quite fair, but to suggest that there is no bias in the US colleges and Universities and that Horowitz has no reason to be concerned....well that's just asinine. Last time I checked, it wasn't the conservatives that were the self-loathers it was the folks like Ward Churchill and those "professors" claiming that the US actually orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. Ever read Chomski, a.k.a the liberal's guide to convincing himself the U.S. is evil and the cause of all the world's problems? I assure you it is not in the conservative's "must read" list.

    Horowitz may be somewhat an alarmist, but that doesn't mean he is a charlatan.

    Crash, now you've done it. Coward will be ranting and raving all day, now that he's woken up. I suspect the only break we'll get from him is when he has to go and replace keyboards - all that pounding, you know.

    BTW, the Declaration was/is not propaganda - I respectfully have to disagree with both you and Dr. Zdrok. The Declaration was a statement to King George, and to all the colonies, of grievances by the British, and the natural response to those grievances. It was written in the style of the 18th century, so naturally wouldn't have the pc language of today, but the principles of that document are still valid today - else why would we (as a country) strive to bring democracy to a region that has never known it?

    >"I'd like to thank Crash and O'leily for demonstrating once again some striking examples of OlbyThink - making up "facts" and attacking people for things they never said. Great work guys!"

    Crash doesn't sound like a liberal to me.

    "limburger is the stinkiest of all the stinky cheeses" ... finally, a commenter with a sense of humor! Very nice.

    I do have to give Bob Cox credit for convening this panel in the first place but I do think he should try it again in a few months with a lefty who actually keeps his promises.

    I`d like to thank Crash and O`leily for demonstrating once again some striking examples of OlbyThink - making up `facts` and attacking people for things they never said. Great work guys!`

    Crash doesn't sound like a liberal to me.

    Nope.

    I`d like to thank Crash and O`leily for demonstrating once again some striking examples of OlbyThink - making up `facts` and attacking people for things they never said. Great work guys!`

    Crash doesn't sound like a liberal to me.

    Nope.

    Er, I think Mr. Cox was refering to the...

    "making up 'facts' and attacking people for things they never said"

    ...part of OlbyThink, not the liberal part.

    He was referring to the facts' part, but as I have apologized and conceded that I was mistaken, this would by no means group me with the OlbyThink crowd. A willingness to admit when you are wrong is not an asset shared by the Olbyloon.

    well that's true

    Aaron, thanks for the kind words about my humor. The great sage Jimmy Buffett once said/sang, "If I couldn't laugh I just would go insane." I figure laughter and a sense of humor keeps me from taking a lot of what the world throws up...er...at me too seriously. I have worked 20 years in the radio broadcast business and for several of those 20 years I hosted or co-hosted some talk shows. I've also learned to develop a thicker skin, too. However I think I've learned to laugh easier than developing the thicker skin. At least it was less painful.

    Another Buffett quote I like is: "Indecision may or may not be my problem."

    Keep laughing, Aaron, life is too short to let the loonies/turkeys/doofuses/maroons/etc. keep you down.

    I post this link so readers can get an idea of just how unwilling the mainstream media is to discuss 9/11 in an adult fashion.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/171106planetmancow.htm

    And, one more time: I challenge all of us to listen to what former Reagan and Bush administration officials, former military brass and fighter pilots, former CIA officials, along with numerous scientists and scholars, are saying about the 9/11 attacks. There are questions about that day that need to be addressed, and these people I mention are asking them. Some members of the 9/11 Commission believe that NORAD personnel lied to them. Why would NORAD lie? What are they hiding? Also, there was a spike in put options on American and United Airlines on September 7th, suggesting whomever took them out had some kind of prior knowledge of the attacks. Why hasn't the identity of these stock traders been revealed? Perhaps they were helping to fund Al Qaeda, who knows? Why didn't the administration readily admit from the outset that Dick Cheney was at the White House simulating wargames that morning? Why did they lie to us that night and say they'd had no warnings of such an attack? Why did Bush stay at Booker Elementary School for nearly an hour, thereby putting himself and those children in danger? There are many other pertinent questions that have simply been ignored. Just basic questions. Let's answer them rather than mock people who have experience and expertise in these matters.
    It is childish to insist that members of the Reagan and Bush administration, CIA agents, military brass, the victim's families, Michael Meacher, Daniel Ellsberg, Andreas Von Bulow, Gore Vidal, Paul Craig Roberts, Bob Bowman and countless others are all part of some vast tin foil hat crowd. Respectfully, I ask each of you to watch Terrorstorm on Google Video, a documentary created by right-wing Christian journalist Alex Jones. Watch 9/11 Press For Truth, watch 9/11 Mysteries, Part One, watch Loose Change. What can it hurt to hear alternate points of view? Again, the sentiments I express are shared by former Reagan and Bush administration officials, former military brass, former fighter pilots, former CIA officials, former Pentagon officials. Again, this includes Daniel Ellsberg, who, as we know, told the truth about Vietnam.
    Let's work together to determine the facts. And if the 9/11 truth movement is so ridiculous, then it should take no time at all to clear the matter up. But remember it is Lee Hamilton and Thomas Keane who contend that representatives from NORAD were hiding something when they testified. Are Hamilton and Keane tin foil hat people, too? Is the 9/11 commission now part of this tin foil hat conspiracy? Are all these former miltary and CIA, former Reagan and Bush officials just trying to make George W Bush look bad? That doesn't make sense. Why would they do that? They would have nothing to gain and everything to lose by taking such a stand. Ignoring these issues just adds fuel to speculation of American involvment.
    There are those who seem to be afraid to have an adult conversation about this. They protest too much, which suggests they realize something is wrong and don't want to face it. Most are skeptical until they look at the many documentaries and study the facts. Plainly stated, there is something wrong with the official account of 9/11, and polls consistently show that 80% of Americans agree. It's time for a real, courageous, honest investigation into the events of that awful day. Our future well being depends on it. Thanks for listening. Peace.

    Congrats on your debate score, Bob, although most of the judges seem to rely on the standard left vs right memes...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Thanks too for taking Olbermann Watch out of mourning. We live in the best country in the world and it's a weekend! What better reasons for seeing the glass half full and getting down tonight! The raspberry OW banner is an inspired and poetic choice.

    Have a grand weekend, everybody!

    " Why did they lie to us that night and say they'd had no warnings of such an attack? ... Just basic questions...Respectfully, I ask each of you to watch Terrorstorm on Google Video, a documentary created by right-wing Christian journalist Alex Jones. Watch 9/11 Press For Truth, watch 9/11 Mysteries, Part One, watch Loose Change. What can it hurt to hear alternate points of view?"
    Posted by: tt at November 17, 2006 07:43 PM
    ------------------------------------------------------

    The answer is simple. Although all the weapons inspectors were saying they could find nothing for weeks and months leading up to the days before Bush bombed Iraq our nation went ahead and did it anyway.

    911 was allowed to happen for the same reason - the neocons were looking for their Pearl Harbor. When the NSA,CIA and FBI informed the covert operatives working for the neocons that more than a dozen Muslims were flying the same trip plan on east coast airline routes over and over without actually going anywhere, they sat back and let it happen hoping for the big justification to take Iraq.

    Anyone with eyes that can see knew this was a blessing in disguise for the neocons. And boy did Bush and the rest of the gang who couldn't shoot strait take the ball and run with it. All the talk of Sadam and Al Qaeda being in bed together by Bush, Limbaugh and the entire Fox News gang of whores was drummed into the heads of the simple minded who look, listen and learn as they are told to just as long as it feeds the fear-to-hate mandate of the kulture of kowards.

    Now we are hundreds of billions of dollars in debt, hundreds of thousands dead, the whole world has more disgust and scorn with the US than at any other time in our history. The cost of bill for Iraq? Who is paying for it? The rich? Hell no they got the biggest tax breaks while the poor and the middle class pay more in cost of living and loss of services of every kind. Tuition has doubled and health care has never been more unavailable to more working families than any other time in modern history of this nation.

    All this and there is still pea brained idiots to embarrassed to acknowledge how foolish they have been to have jumped on the bandwagon of "be afraid - be very afraid" and sucked up all the garbage scum bags like Limbaugh and Fox News pump out everyday like Soil and Green. Talk about drinking the kool-aid. I dare you to watch Alex Jones documentary. Jones is a little over the top with the suggestions of setting explosives in the adjacent buildings of the twin towers but the rest of the documentary is a telling review of the history of this nation that is not speculation like setting explosives. It is an eye opener and only the cowards will be inclined to skip it.

    "Horowitz may be somewhat an alarmist, but that doesn't mean he is a charlatan.

    Posted by: Crash at November 17, 2006 03:24 PM"

    Obviously you made attempt to copy and paste the link (see below) and review the money making "reactionary" salesmanship of Mr. Horowitz.

    And as to plucking Ward Churchill from the long list of profs in this nation... it speaks well of the frailness of your argument that our nation is run amuck in left wing bias. The universities of the nation have been adverse failures in stopping the corporate take over of Washington DC. They have done nothing to end the addiction to foreign oil and done nothing about a good cop bad cop two party system that is a fucking joke, a model to every communist nation on this planet on how to fake a democracy.

    Your contention that a bunch of whacky left wing "liberals" are so much a threat that, as you claim, Horowitz's list of mainly non white college profs are such a threat that he needs make a list and sell it in the form of book, and a campaign, to save America from it's self, is a joke.

    The universities of this nation are chalk full of self preserving self serving professors who couldn't do enough to stem the tide of a complete take over of this nation by corporations. Total failures.

    If we had what you suggest we have in terms of far left profs in all the major universities then explain how this nation fell into the hands of a bunch of hillbillies like Tom DeLay and Bill Frist, who sent Mr. Retard George W Bush to office not once, but twice, and then to pull off the horrendous fiasco in Iraq in an adventure to secure an oil rich nation as part of a plan to end OPECS's pitiful price control on world oil markets. You have got to be kidding. Jesus H Christ are you people who listen to the garbage Limbaugh and Hannity spoon feed you ever naive and gullible uneducated idiots. You think all you have to do is listen to the microphone monkey's and you know it all. This is how Horowitz can make the money he does - he is just another whore pimping phantom evils to paranoid corporate owned media junkies cowering in fear of dark skinned men out to kill them.

    This nation, and especially the universities, are not pumping out left wing anything, what our universities are pumping out are a culture of "how do I get rich and how do I do it as fast and easy as I can." That is it, the days of left wing anything went out the last time Ralph Nader ran for office. All the rest are a mere drop in a sea of "show me the money."

    You live in the pretend world you are guided to live in. You drink the kool-aid and do it perfectly. Like a fine tune instrument.

    Stalin and Moa would envy the system we live under, you are a testimony of it's success.

    http://c2005.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-david-horowitz-is-piece-of-work.html

    tt and Coward...

    i thought 9/11 was the fault of ManBearPig...isn't that what Algore said?

    Coward has obviously not read the book "The Professors" and is merely regurgitating comment from his left wing sites as he describes a completely fictional desire on author David Horowitz's part for a "McCarthy" cleansing of left radical profs.

    Anyone actually familiar with Dr. Horowitz's work knows that he makes two main points:

    1) no professor of whatever ideology has a right to introduce that ideology into his classroom, making it a hostile environment for dissenters from his/her ideology and a biased discussion instead of the free-wheeling exchange of multiple points of view that universities are supposed to provide for the big bucks they are charging.

    2) no professor whatever his ideology should be hired (because his ideology is a match for the hiring committee) to a position for which he/she lacks the most basic qualifications.

    Since the vast majority of university professors are leftwing, the ones who flog their ideology in the classroom are mainly leftwing, and the ones lacking proper credentials are leftwing, then the squealing is all coming from the left on this issue. And what's the first thing they squeal? McCarthy.

    McCarthy, that's left shorthand for hounding of innocents with false accusations of communism. Since McCarthy's basic premise was actually correct, that the U.S. government had been infiltrated at every level up to presidential advisors by avowed communists and their sympathizers, as documented by the Venona Papers from Soviet archival material, then lefties continue to try to kill the message by killing the messenger. It worked for them pretty well with McCarthy, so now they're attempting the same trick with Horowitz.

    If Americans weren't so abysmally ignorant of their own history, the real smearers wouldn't be able to get away with it, but of course, who's teaching American history in your universities? The far left.

    Dr. Zdrok, assuming her PhD is real, just proves the adage that you can take the girl out of Russia, but you can't take Russia out of the girl. She apparently believes all that hooey taught in Russian schools about their nemesis, the USA, and why not, when half her new countryment believe the same. No other country has allowed such haters and denigrators of their own nation to seize the reins of education, media and government!

    AND THEY OUTED VALERIE PLAME!!!!!

    Oh wait, I just remembered that I'm not a lefty lunatic. Please disregard and carry on.

    coward whines...

    "You live in the pretend world you are guided to live in. You drink the kool-aid and do it perfectly. Like a fine tune instrument."

    Ummm, sweetie? Were you maybe gazing lovingly into your mirror when this brilliant observation crossed your mind?

    It's called projection, dear. Look it up.

    Eric in Hollywood

    there's not much you can say to defend the white house, but it's still good that you are all keeping olbermann's feet to the fire. necessary for democracy to work. demand accountability and accuracy from the government and the media.
    i brought up bohemian grove and the mock human sacrifice yesterday. since everyone accused me of dreaming it up, i'm posting this link to articles about the grove and photos from inside the grove. peace.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_bohemian_grove.html

    all the name calling is unproductive. members of the media need to be held accountable. i lke olberman, and, obviously, he's got what's left of the right wing pretty stirred up. but i think this site is healthy, and, for the most part, the postings are substantive. but i think mr. cox should establish a "watch" site for every single television journalist, whether left or right. these people need to be held acountable. the politicians are not going to police themselves--not often enough, anyway. the media is supposed to do it, but....sites like this are vital, i think, to make sure every point of view is heard. well done, robert. any chance you can expand your watches to include o'reilly, couric, willims, hume, et al?

    Crash,

    Actually; functioning college professors and journalists are by definition "liberal" - that is: they consider all relevant perspectives and pay attention to qualified consensus. Otherwise they are nothing but doctrinaires and propagandists; like HorowtZ and Fox News.

    Crash,

    Actually; functioning college professors and journalists are by definition "liberal" - that is: they consider all relevant perspectives and pay attention to qualified consensus. Otherwise they are nothing but doctrinaires and propagandists; like HorowtZ and Fox News.


    Again, for those who thought I was making it up, here is a link to information about the mock ritual human sacrifice before a 45 foot concrete owl named Moloch, an ancient babylonian god, held every year at bohemian grove--retreat for the wealthy elite, including most high ranking Republican political officials. Have a look. But you may not like what you find.


    http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_bohemian_grove.html

    What's next? Discussion of the illuminati and how they're ruining your life? Tell me, do you think they're responsible for the Kennedy assinations? MLK? the WTC? And is Elvis still alive? Or has he gone back to his home planet? Seriously, I could't make you Olbyloons up if I tried.

    It appears that tt is simply a PR agent, spamming the comments with links to a moonbat site that claims Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. Pay him no heed, and certainly don't give his site any hits.

    I don't plan on it. I've seen these whackjob conspiracy theories on the liberal websites before. The pathetic thing is that these loons honestly, truly believe it.

    Again, for those who thought I was making it up, here is a link to information about the mock ritual human sacrifice before a 45 foot concrete owl named Moloch, an ancient babylonian god, held every year at bohemian grove--retreat for the wealthy elite, including most high ranking Republican political officials. Have a look. But you may not like what you find.


    http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_bohemian_grove.html

    Note to TT, you long ago crossed the line into spamming.

    So, consider this your final warning. If you continue, ALL your previous posts will be deleted and your IP will be banned.

    Think you can control yourself?

    This site does not exist to promote sites that you fancy. So, knock it off or expect to see yourself on the outside looking in.

    What's so smelly?

    Oh it's liberals!! Their birth control pills and condoms and yesterday's aborted fetus must be spoiling in their gucchi handbangs.

    HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Zdork is quite the ditz: "Worn out by work, screaming kids and a nagging spouse". Sounds like tool-of-the-patriarchy talk.

    Zdork is quite the ditz: "Worn out by work, screaming kids and a nagging spouse". Sounds like tool-of-the-patriarchy talk.

    Hey Mr. Cox, can you do me a quick favor and ask "Dr. Victoria Zdrok" how many babies she generally recommends people murder every year?

    Advice: Don't give airtime to your enemies, by the way, just so you can have some claim of "objectivity." Here's a newsflash, putting criminals on the jury does not make the verdict more fair.

    Could Barnhart have been more disrespectful of the process? He basically said a good argument would be to say that it's ok to lie through your teeth because people are really smart and won't be fooled. Oh yeah? Is that why we have been dominated for decades by liberal bullshit? Because people are so smart? Is that why we can't win a war anymore because of protesters and bleeding hearts who want to coddle our enemies? Dunk them in water? Hell yes. Set their hair on fire, rub their feet off with sandpaper, staple their tounges to their chins and put them on an anthill. But no more 9-11.

    911 was a conspiracy man!! Can't you SEE what the gov't has done to you?!

    TT and Coward Watch are Right! Isn't it OBVIOUS that hundreds and hundreds of Americans willingly entered into what would be the worst attack on American soil in history?? Everyone to the left of Dick Cheney's speech writer can tell that they would do that in a heartbeat. Even if it meant the deaths of thousands of their innocent countrymen the goal would be SO worth while. The NEOCONS would have their pearl harbor!! YAY!!
    Even though they individually would get nothing out of it and might lose some family members in the military to the subsequent wars that were fought.....well, what's that compared to the NEOCONS getting their conspiracy?! My brothers life in the army doesn't matter! KARL ROVE NEEDS THIS! That's why it was so easy to find people to collaborate!

    What's that? It'd be awfully difficult to keep every person in check? With all those people someone would break and come completely clean? Well you obviously don't know the American Gov't!! Why they can keep anything secret they want to!! Anytime! Their FACISTS!! EVERYTHING IS KEPT SECRET IN THE US!! ...well except for that NSA wiretapping program that the NYT leaked. And the SWIFT overseas banking program that turned out not to be illegal, they couldn't keep that secret as well. And there was that issue with prisoner transfers of terrorism suspects in Europe. They couldn't keep that secret either.....

    (/sarcasm)

    I find it so very depressing that this even needs to be debated. It's asinine on it's face. But the saddest aspect of the whole ordeal is how willing people are to entertain the idea that our gov't put this together to benefit the whims of some elusive players on the world stage.

    The recipe for the movies being hawked is so superficial as well. Take a couple of teenagers who feel they're smarter than every adult in the world and out of work gov't officials, get a good movie editor for your PC, take as many quotes out of context as you can, fill the screen with as much carnage as possible, and overlay all of the above with darkly sinister music for about 90 minutes.

    That people continue to traffic in these ideas is perverse. No amount of raw facts will change their minds.

    You could have Osama himself tell these people how he ochestrated the entire thing from his honeycomb in Pakistan and the first thing you'd hear is how he's really just reading Karl Rove's talking points and that he's actually an invention of the CIA....etc.

    I honestly feel so very very sorry for these people.

    911 was a conspiracy man!! Can't you SEE what the gov't has done to you?!

    TT and Coward Watch are Right! Isn't it OBVIOUS that hundreds and hundreds of Americans willingly entered into what would be the worst attack on American soil in history?? Everyone to the left of Dick Cheney's speech writer can tell that they would do that in a heartbeat. Even if it meant the deaths of thousands of their innocent countrymen the goal would be SO worth while. The NEOCONS would have their pearl harbor!! YAY!!
    Even though they individually would get nothing out of it and might lose some family members in the military to the subsequent wars that were fought.....well, what's that compared to the NEOCONS getting their conspiracy?! My brothers life in the army doesn't matter! KARL ROVE NEEDS THIS! That's why it was so easy to find people to collaborate!

    What's that? It'd be awfully difficult to keep every person in check? With all those people someone would break and come completely clean? Well you obviously don't know the American Gov't!! Why they can keep anything secret they want to!! Anytime! Their FACISTS!! EVERYTHING IS KEPT SECRET IN THE US!! ...well except for that NSA wiretapping program that the NYT leaked. And the SWIFT overseas banking program that turned out not to be illegal, they couldn't keep that secret as well. And there was that issue with prisoner transfers of terrorism suspects in Europe. They couldn't keep that secret either.....

    (/sarcasm)

    I find it so very depressing that this even needs to be debated. It's asinine on it's face. But the saddest aspect of the whole ordeal is how willing people are to entertain the idea that our gov't put this together to benefit the whims of some elusive players on the world stage.

    The recipe for the movies being hawked is so superficial as well. Take a couple of teenagers who feel they're smarter than every adult in the world and out of work gov't officials, get a good movie editor for your PC, take as many quotes out of context as you can, fill the screen with as much carnage as possible, and overlay all of the above with darkly sinister music for about 90 minutes.

    That people continue to traffic in these ideas is perverse. No amount of raw facts will change their minds.

    You could have Osama himself tell these people how he ochestrated the entire thing from his honeycomb in Pakistan and the first thing you'd hear is how he's really just reading Karl Rove's talking points and that he's actually an invention of the CIA....etc.

    I honestly feel so very very sorry for these people.

    Dan

    This is Ron again. You didn’t answer my last email. I guess you haven’t seen me announcing the Dog Shows. I really need to get back on the news circuit. I promise Dan that I wont so much of a wacko leftist this time. I mean whats the son of a former president suppose to do.

    Ron

    Dan

    One more thing…I tried all the other hate America stations like CNN,CBS AND NBC but they say they are full of haters….Don’t you have room for one more American hater on MSNBC.

    Ron R.

    Ps. I get the smell from those Dog Shows Im announcing on me and I have to shower multiple times to get it out.

    Feeling particularly "beligerently uninformed" today, I'm going to wade into something I really don't give a shit about. Who cares about who won an argument? You guys weren't looking to convince the other guy of the incorrectness of his opinion nor were either side open to the possiblity of really reconsidering their opinion.
    This was the internet equivalent of Talking Head TV.

    That said I have to agree with Cox that Olbermann does have an impact on the NBC News brand. But not for the reasons Cox would probably use. But because MSNBC, in its zeal to show that it has an actual winner on its hands, builds Olbermann up into something that he patently isn't. That's the danger for NBC...not becuase Olbermann's show exists but because NBC mis-characterizes the program. And we've seen it with all these characterizations of Murrow and what not recently.

    So in the end it won't be Olbermann that muddies NBC News, it'll be NBC News that muddies NBC News. NBC will finally have its O'Reilly but it won't handle Olbermann the way FNC handles O'Reilly (which is a sword that cuts two ways actually)...

    Now I suppose I should go read the debate posts...but that would sully my belligerently uninformed status. So I won't...

    Olbermann just stated on the Dan Patrick Show that Bill O' Reilly appeared to be drunk on his last newscast. Olby also asked Dan (who will appear on Letterman tonight) to mention to "Dave" that he predicted the winner of the baseball MVP award. What a self-absorbed tool Olby is.

    I guess I should describe the context that Olby made the "O'Reilly looked drunk comment"...he and Patrick were talking about Farrah Fawcett's appearance on Letterman when she seemed to be under the influence. Immediately, Olby attacked O'Reilly.

    Olby is so warped and consumed with his Olby obsession that he'll interject a Bill O stab at the drop of a hat. I can't stand this a--hole.

    KISSINGER DECLARES IRAQ VICTORY IMPOSSIBLE

    -- Laments Lack of Military Strong Man To Hold Region Together --

    WASHINGTON -- Military victory is no longer possible in Iraq, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger told the British Broadcasting Corporation in a television interview broadcast Sunday. Kissinger, whose views have recently been sought by the Iraqi Study Group, presented a bleak vision of Iraq and the larger middle east saying, "If only there was a long standing, containable military strong man in charge of Iraq. Someone non-sectarian, who could serve both as a viable counter-balance to Iran, but also serve to hold the region together and keep it from spinning out of control."

    While this discussion has wandered all over the place, I'd like to throw a couple of sentences of my own in on the nature of the Declaration of Independence.

    Propaganda? Well, I guess at some level the Declaration is propaganda in the sense that it states a political position. However it more than states a position, every one of the documents signers was commiting an act of treason against Britain. And that gives it the substance of personal risk that's missing from mere "propaganda."

    When you lay your life, your wealth and your liberty at the feet of a cause, you're doing more than publishing some propaganda. You're going to war.

    While this discussion has wandered all over the place, I'd like to throw a couple of sentences of my own in on the nature of the Declaration of Independence.

    Propaganda? Well, I guess at some level the Declaration is propaganda in the sense that it states a political position. However it more than states a position, every one of the documents signers was commiting an act of treason against Britain. And that gives it the substance of personal risk that's missing from mere "propaganda."

    When you lay your life, your wealth and your liberty at the feet of a cause, you're doing more than publishing some propaganda. You're going to war.

    BUSH TO MEET IRAQI PRIME MINISTER IN JORDAN

    -- "Liberated Iraq", Even Baghdad Green Zone, Now Too Hot For Boy George --

    WASHINGTON -- After the Thanksgiving Day Massacre of Shiites by Sunnis, President Bush should go on Rupert Murdoch's Fox News and give an interview headlined: "If I did it, here's how the civil war in Iraq happened." He could describe, hypothetically of course, a series of naive, arrogant and self-defeating blunders, including his own team's failure to comprehend what most of the State Department predicted long before this failed war of choice: that in the Arab world, revenge and religious zealotry can be stronger compulsions than democracy and prosperity. Way to go, BushCO. Asleep at the switch again. Way to go, dumbshits. Now go pick up your medal of freedom.