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    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    April 20, 2007
    Countdown with Keith Olbermann - April 20, 2007

    "COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN" (8:00 P.M.-9:00 P.M. ET)

    Host: Keith Olbermann

    Topics/Guests:

    • IRAQ POLITICS: Jonathan Alter, Newsweek senior editor; Paul Reickhoff, founder of the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America

    Another opening, another spiel: Graphic: "Playing Politics with Iraq"; Pat Tillman again; troops get an extra day off; Wolfowitz "on the ropes"; clips of Richard McCain, Bush, and Alec Baldwin. Ho hum. Casual Friday at Olbermann Watch. It's a kinder, gentler recap.

    UPDATE: Video & Transcript

    Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly book Culture Warrior

    #5: Money for the troops: "give him the money now, debate whether to save their lives later". Harry Reid's comments earn criticism from Joe Lieberthal. "Mister" Bush "grossly exaggerating" the need for funds. (Note: it was just a few weeks ago when Olby was attacking Bush for "shortchanging" the troops and guest Reickhoff spoke of the "urgency" of the situation.) Lefty Alter brought up Keith's favorite definition of insanity [Ding!] and said the Dems are "turning the screws". Great thanks.

    New details on Pat Tillman. Reickhoff did the hand-wringing over "damage control". Oralmann: "stupefying". He brought up troop reaction to Reid's "the war is lost"; Reickhoff said Reid wasn't going to win many votes among the military, and added that some briefing might have given information to the enemy ("a Geraldo moment").

    #4: Election 2008. Attack on Richard McCain (R) for his bomb Iran joke and other comments. Clinton suggests Gore may run. Hillary panders to the Rutgers team.

    #3: Paul Wolfowitz gave his girlfriend a raise. Is it "corruption"? Is it "stupidity"? Back in the day, Herr Olbermann would say "it's just about sex". Dana Milbank, sans splashy suits, talked about "mismanagement". Monkeymann wondered if anyone in the administration will emerge unstained. Great thanks.

    #2: Supposed-to-be-funny clips, carefully cherry-picked from an appearance by "Mister" Bush (Blue Blog Source: HuffPo). Plus Imus's producer, and Larry Birkhead. #1: The Great Alec Baldwin Controversy (regurgitated video plus Savannah Guthrie).

    In the Media Matters Minute, a hit on Tommy Thompson (R) coupled with another O'Reilly attack (Blue Blog Source: Media Matters), plus "comedian Rush Limbaugh" (Blue Blog Source: Media Matters), described as "delusional, paranoid, and disconnected from reality" [Olbersaurus Triple Update!]. "Man on Fan" Olbermann is going to name a liberal as "worst person"...when?

    Stories Olbermann refuses to report

    Dogs that did not bark: As usual, news that doesn't fit OlbySpin gets spiked. The market surges, hitting a record close. Reporting good economic news is not permitted as long as "Mister" Bush is in office. Of course Bathtub Boy has said not one word about the Supreme Court's partial birth abortion ruling, let alone the ignorant and hypocritical comments of Harry Reid. And don't hold your breath waiting for Herr Olbermann's apology to Opio Sokoni, let alone any correction for his using false information to slander "Mister" Bush.

    Stories Olbermann refuses to report

    And now our weekly assessment of Keith Olbermann's masculinity. Over the past week Olbermann has attacked Fox, CNN, and Limbaugh/right-wing pundits six times; Olby criticisms of MSNBC: zero. Meanwhile, his primary source (Media Matters) criticized MSNBC five times. That makes this week's Olbermann Manhood Quotient: -12 [limp].

    MisterMeter

    Olbermann's book The book that bears Olbermann's name rocketed to #6,503 at amazon.com, but "Culture Warrior" is #296. (It's that 2-for-$25 sale!) The OlbyTome is unranked at Barnes & Noble; O'Reilly's book is #389 there, and is one of the top five books of 2006 per Publishers Weekly. Poor Olby. His tabloid gunman video surge dissipated on Thursday. He had good ratings for one day, but when it comes to holding on to viewers, he just can't keep it up. The Hour of Spin was again in third place, both in total viewers and in the critical, beloved, all-important, coveted "key demo". Tonight's MisterMeter reading: 2 [LOW]

    UPDATE: Video & Transcript

    Read the transcript to the Friday show


    Posted by johnny dollar | Permalink | Comments (170) | | View blog reactions
    user-pic

    170 Comments

    >I read the Olbermann fan forums. I know just the type of jobs you slackers have. And you're minimally employed if employed at all. And you're timing how long it takes you to write your posts? Now I'm the one laughing my ass off. Really, you couldn't make up fanatics like you if you tried, oh that's right, you don't have to try, you are one.
    Posted by: brandon at April 19, 2007 10:11 PM

    Okay, I DON’T read the Olbermann fan forums. So you’re one up on me there, hot shot (and wearing your obsession on your sleeve I might add). Brandon is still in his fantasy world where all his detractors are less employed, less educated, less informed, and less wealthy than him.

    When you get done laughing, Brandon, come on back down to earth. OW needs you to keep making them look even more ridiculous than they already are. Take Doug’s lead Brandon, it sounds like perhaps he’s got a little more going on between the ears than you do. And that ‘masters’ degree you say you have...I think maybe ‘mastur’ is just the beginning of the word that describes your field of expertise.

    Look Brandon, whatever stereotypes of Keith Olbermann fans you’ve developed in your mind…I’m sure you’ve reached your conclusions logically (just like you thought I was a woman). But I’m NOT an Olbermann fan. I find it extremely hilarious that the only way you can muster up enough hate towards someone is to pretend they like Olbermann. If someone hasn’t professed their undying love for KO, you just pretend they have.

    Brandon, listen buddy…you have every reason to hate me…I’ve stomped your ass into a mudhole for the 5th night in a row. I’ve embarrassed you on your own turf. You don’t have to pretend I like Olbermann. It’s sad you need that crutch to give your life and your ‘work’ here meaning. If you’re going to hate me, hate me for what I am (laughing my ass off at you), not for what you think I am.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    >Maybe you should spend those 18 minutes 42 seconds trying to acquire female companionship?
    Just a thought.
    Posted by: at April 19, 2007 10:13 PM

    My wife wouldn’t like that too much. Do you often reply to comments without actually reading them? Yeah, I’d leave the name field blank too, if I were you. Maybe you should spend 18 minutes and 42 seconds thinking up a more intelligent response. If you can do it in that short of time. But Jeff, if you’re reading this (and I know you are) take the advice of this reading and retention challenged person.

    Take a look at any of the archives from the last 90 days. Any day, any time, and Jeff can be found making the same asinine comments that he’s become famous for. I think you’re neglecting more than just the horses and cows, Jeff.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    >Are you quite sure that it was not your wife hijacking Cecelia's name? :)
    Grammie
    Posted by: Janet Hawkins at April 19, 2007 11:28 PM

    Yes, quite sure Grammie. I show my wife the posts you and Cecelia make and she laughs her ass off with me. :D
    ________________________________________________________________________

    >You don’t even know who or what I am [so I will tell of] my wife of 10 years [and my] 30+ employees of my two businesses, much less what the debate is actually about [like me] someone who doesn’t even watch Countdown.
    [T]his site is in dire need of some critical thinking [so I ask you]
    Wassamatta, Cox won’t let you play with his ‘Cool Web Toys?”
    Good luck with you're problem. I suggested new batteries the other day, apparently you didn't take my you didn't take my advice [b]ecause I enjoy it! [N]o ‘rushing’ is required.
    Posted by: Sharon at April 19, 2007 11:06 PM

    Sharon’s new debating technique: Take your opponents words…add some of your own…subtract some of his…add in someone else’s (misspelled) words, then switch them all around to mean something different, and Voila, you’re actually arguing with yourself. I think that’s what schizophrenics do after they are proven wrong. Nice Sharon, and to think I thought you were stupid. Apparently you’re just very ill.

    And for anyone that thinks I was being egotistical talking about my businesses and my house, etc as Sharon seems to imply with her game of ‘message board scrabble’, you should realize it was the jet setting Brandon who brought up his personal wealth, his mansion, his fleet of luxury cars, and his masters degree before I mentioned anything like that about myself. In fact, they couldn’t debate me without trying to guess my gender. What the hell does that matter per this discussion other than illustrating something else they were wrong about?
    ________________________________________________________________________

    >I'm starting to think lmao is guinea pig at pfizer. Can you say "out there?"
    Posted by: royalking at April 20, 2007 12:38 AM

    Yes Jeff, I am ‘out there.’ Out there in the real world…while you live on this website.
    At the same time you posted that, you were the most recent commenter on ALL the active threads. Don’t believe me? Take a look:

    Countdown with Keith Olbermann - April 19, 2007
    royalking wrote: I'm starting to think lmao is guinea pig at pfizer. Can you say "out there?... [more](13)


    Countdown with Keith Olbermann - April 17, 2007
    royalking wrote: lil mikey, one of the biggest haters here, besides burger king and O'liar i... [more](333)


    Keith Olbermann Slapped by RedEye for Blaming Bush for Virginia Tech Massacre
    royalking wrote: un-American pat, as usual you post before thinking. When will you guys lear... [more](30)


    Countdown with Keith Olbermann - April 16, 2007
    royalking wrote: There are some other points that can be made from the survey. O'Reilly view... [more](143)


    You have to make sure you throw in your two cents on EVERY SINGLE thread continuously 24 / 7 and you think I’m ‘Out There.’ Coming from you, that makes me feel pretty good! Oh, and in case I haven’t told you lately, you’re such a douche.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    >LMAO failed to mentioned that it took 2 hours to read through the posts looking for his/her name.....Or should I say "reading with lips moving" for 2 hours?
    C’mon Cee, I’d expect more from an intelligent and deeply religious man like yourself. If you get THAT mad at everyone that points out your mistakes, you must be angry ALL the time. I’d rather be ‘reading with lips moving’ than ‘on my knees with lips moving’ like you. Oh, you were praying? It looked like something else from my angle.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    >OK, this guy LMAO is as obsessed as the VTECH killer was. He lurks and plots and pounces on the site as soon as the comments open up. Scary.
    Posted by: ed murrow weeps at April 20, 2007 1:16 AM
    Lurks? Plots? Pounces? How about Reads, Thinks, Types. Scary, I know but you should try it sometime.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    >LMAO is a woman. Men don't use fingernails.
    Posted by: Cecelia at April 20, 2007 4:54 AM

    I’m supposed to feel insulted because you think I am the same gender as you?
    I think you are a man, because women aren’t supposed to talk to the TV.

    Here’s Cecelia in her own words when she first watched Countdown:

    > I found Olbermann Watch after watching Countdown a few times and shouting counterpoints at the tv screen. :D I googled "Keith Olbermann" and thought thank god there's someone taking on this bastard.

    Let’s forget for a moment that Cecelia talks to the TV and she’s the one who thinks I’M angry, and examine that a little closer, shall we?

    That’s how Cecelia felt seeing someone on TV espousing views different than hers ‘unchallenged.’ That alone says more about Cecelia than it does what type of show Countdown is.

    Oh and here’s a post from Cecelia just today that’s dripping in irony:
    >That they've proably spent the years before Countdown, pulling out their hair and accusing Fox News of doing this for the rightwing, (but doing it poorly) is, I know, a distinction and bit of irony completely lost on them.
    Posted by: Cecelia at April 20, 2007 7:27 PM

    Who is the irony lost on, Cecelia? Well at least you’re just ‘yelling at the TV’ and not ‘pulling your hair out.’

    Cecelia’s Talking to the TV and I’m Laughing My Ass Off!

    Oh lucky OW, and two-fer on Militia Day!

    Do you know what I find most amusing about OlbermannWatch (and I do find lots of things amusing here, that’s why I keep coming back…)

    It’s the fact that Bob, Johnny, Brandon, Cecelia, Jeff, Grammie, Sharon, Etc just can’t comprehend how a conservative leaning person (ME – Pro-Small Gov’t, Pro-Strong Military, Pro-Death Penalty, Pro-Gun Rights, Anti-Abortion, Anti-Big Taxes, Anti-Illegal Immigration)

    …would NOT be a fan of Olbermann (Countdown-Bland, Self-Righteous, and Redundant).

    …but would still find their efforts and mission here LAUGHABLE.

    This site just seems to have a general “How dare Olbermann go around telling people what they should dare to do….” (read: Hypocrisy) stench to it.

    Olbermann’s not fooling anyone with ‘propaganda.’ People that like him like him and people that don’t don’t. Sure, his show would be infinitely more interesting if he had differing views on his show, but then his ratings might go up, and then what would you do?

    But I must admit, OW is FUNNY, and I would never want this site to go away or for it’s supporters to quit posting. In the ‘marketplace of ideas’ this site is like the impulse rack near the checkout line: Profiting from people’s fear, insecurity, ignorance, and of course one’s more basic impulses.

    And there’s always ignorant people to make fun of. I know it’s juvenile, but who said we have to act our age all the time? Lord knows the OW Crew certainly doesn’t.

    >Maybe you should spend those 18 minutes 42 seconds trying to acquire female companionship?
    Just a thought.
    Posted by: at April 19, 2007 10:13 PM

    My wife wouldn’t like that too much. Do you often reply to comments without actually reading them? Yeah, I’d leave the name field blank too, if I were you. Maybe you should spend 18 minutes and 42 seconds thinking up a more intelligent response. If you can do it in that short of time. But Jeff, if you’re reading this (and I know you are) take the advice of this reading and retention challenged person.

    Your wife, and his name is ........

    Cecelia’s Talking to the TV and I’m Laughing My Ass Off!


    Posted by: LMAO at April 20, 2007 9:49 PM


    Is that the best you can do... uh... Sir.... :D

    LMAO is really short for "Lying My Ass Off". For someone who claims not to worship or adore or love Olbermann they certainly do seem to spend a lot of time defending him here don't they? The first thing to know about Olbyloons is that they are pathological liars. the second thing to know about them is that they are all suffering from some type of mental illness. His fan forums clearly indicate that his most faithful of fans are underemployed or completely unemployed. They bitch, moan, and groan about their lousy jobs, their horrible apartments, that they have to take the bus to work, their crack-dealer neighbors, etc. And 99.9% of them are WOMEN, not men. Not a single thing LMAO is posting is the truth, but that's nothing new for either Olbermann or his flying band of loons now is it?

    "LMAO is really short for "Lying My Ass Off". For someone who claims not to worship or adore or love Olbermann they certainly do seem to spend a lot of time defending him here don't they? The first thing to know about Olbyloons is that they are pathological liars. the second thing to know about them is that they are all suffering from some type of mental illness. His fan forums clearly indicate that his most faithful of fans are underemployed or completely unemployed. They bitch, moan, and groan about their lousy jobs, their horrible apartments, that they have to take the bus to work, their crack-dealer neighbors, etc. And 99.9% of them are WOMEN, not men. Not a single thing LMAO is posting is the truth, but that's nothing new for either Olbermann or his flying band of loons now is it?"


    Brandon seem a little paranoid to anyone else?

    LMAO is really David Brock. It stands for ....

    Love

    MY

    Ass

    Olbermann'd

    Harry Reid says "the war is lost", and Keith and his sock puppet change the quote to "the war is unwinnable". Hmmm.

    "Harry Reid says "the war is lost", and Keith and his sock puppet change the quote to "the war is unwinnable". Hmmm."

    I don't get it? How is the message any different? both imply defeat. Both imply a defeat that cannot be salvaged.

    Did the exchange go something like:

    "Harry Reid say the war was quote: 'unwinnable.'"

    or was it something like:

    "Harry read says the war is unwinnable."

    ??


    I'm spenidng too much time here. Must go play now.

    LMAO: You haven't handed anyone's ass to them, but you have shown us all what an ass you are.

    Is KO on Alec Baldwin's payroll. You'd swear it was Kim Basinger who left a message on Baldwin's recorder sounding like an insane, out of control degenerate. But's Hollywoods favorite liberal "activist" didn't have to worry- Man Under Desk had damage control, under control for the insane out of control degenerate.

    I have nothing to be paranoid about. But I guess if I were an Olbyloon using multiple user names to post my inane ramblings, or lived a life of quiet desperation, working at a crappy job, with no friends, family, or loved ones, only my obsession with defending Keith Olbermann to define who and what I am, I might be a little upset when someone like me comes along and tells the truth about what the Olbyloons are really like.

    Olby has women issues. Surely you didn't expect him to be on the side of either her or the female child now did you? But give the girl a few years and she'll be old enough for Olby to date, hey maybe his opinion of her and her Mom will improve then?

    Why wasn't Alec Baldwin nominated in the WPITW segment? Oh that's right, he's a lib.

    "I have nothing to be paranoid about. But I guess if I were an Olbyloon using multiple user names to post my inane ramblings, or lived a life of quiet desperation, working at a crappy job, with no friends, family, or loved ones, only my obsession with defending Keith Olbermann to define who and what I am, I might be a little upset when someone like me comes along and tells the truth about what the Olbyloons are really like. "


    Brandon is definelty paranoid.

    LMAO, I expressed concern for you several days ago that at the rate you are laughing your ass off that I wondered how big an ass you, oops, how big your ass was. Now you tell us you share everything with her and SHE laughs her ass off too.

    Oh dear, that is worrisome.

    I must be optimistic. You, no doubt, married a woman who is as big an ass, oops, has as big an ass as you do.

    One must find comfort where one can in these troubling times.

    Grammie

    "Olbermann’s not fooling anyone with ‘propaganda.’ People that like him like him and people that don’t don’t." posted by lmao You're sh-ttin me, right? People that like him, like him and people that don't, don't? Well, blow me down! Is this what happens when you and your domestic partner put your heads together?

    LMAO=LAZY MORONIC ASS OLBERJACKHIMSELFOFF. We need to take up a collection for battiers for Katie since the BTF boy had to take another job to afford them.

    LMAO=LAZY MORONIC ASS OLBERJACKHIMSELFOFF. We need to take up a collection for batteries Katie since the BTF boy had to take another job to afford them.

    Sean Virer: He was voted Issue One ! --- Worse than Worst Person in the World!

    Janet? Calling someones wife an ass? Oh such class from someone so above it all.

    Brandon, speaking of "inane ramblings", do you EVER go back and read your own posts later?

    You never post anything of substance. You constantly brag and then denegrate others for all sorts of uncalled for reasons. Your entire existance seems to revolve around calling other folks silly loon like names. Does this make you feel better?

    And for someone to keep posting such silliness as to claim that somone else does not have any life other than "only my obsession with defending Keith Olbermann to define who and what I am" has to be one of the most hypocritical statements that has ever been written, coming from someone who apparently lets attacking Keith Olbermann define "who and what you" are.

    Believe me Brandon, I KNOW I ain't perfect, but brother....you are hard to believe!

    Johnny must be so proud of you!

    is MISTER CAMPO'S going to FIRE that SCUMBAG BALDNONUT'S for ABUSING his DAUGHTER? He works for NBC so GET A NUT CAMPO'S AND FIRE THE BALDNUT AND THE OLBERROSIEPALMANUT.

    Codas, I don't know....I guess it might be OK to imply Janet lacks class, but whatever you do, don't imply she lacks humanity.

    Oh yeah, you need to avoid making any groupee jokes too. Thats already been tried .....with kind of wierd results.

    mikey, do you get yourself off on abusing women? are you alec baldwin playing on the site?

    Hmm, hewhohaslongnamewithnopoint, I'll go check with my adoring wife aftyer she wakes up in the morning.

    This week, during the Virginia Tech massacre, Johnny Dollar gave Keith Olbermann the benefit of the doubt that he could not, even if he was not a crooked figure, get to the Muted Mongrels/Hushed Hounds/Taciturn Terriers; et al... segments and kept them 'light'.

    My question is "Why?" considering that have the shootings never occured --- Ol' Big Macc would never have gotten around to them --- anyway ! No reason to go easy on him --- Keith Olbermann is the most biased anchor in the history of televised reportage --- so you might as well keep the standards linear. You know what I mean?

    I see the Katznjammer Kids are alive and well at OW.

    How reassuring!

    Grammie

    The reason Baldwin wasn't nominated for WPITW, is because he works for NBC. WPITW is reserved for everyone who isn't a liberal and who doesn't work for NBC or PMSNBC (IMUS).

    Wow! how many nights in a row has Lamo post up first?

    Nah! no olbsessed here.

    LAMO said,

    'I show my wife the posts you and Celcelia make and she laughs her ass off too.'

    You mean to tell me LAMO married his imaginary friend? Or does he have a talking doll?

    It's funny the only one defending Baldwin is Olby, well it is in house.

    I wonder if we will hear any rumblings from from the N.O.W. group about this?

    Nah!

    O'Reilly, after talking points has two left leaning people on.

    That's two libs vs. Bill.

    Over at Olby, same old bush bashing talking parrots.

    Which begs the question, If liberals are all knowing, why do they have to have almost the same points repeated to them night after night?

    Just asking.

    Can someone help me here?

    How did that song go?

    Was it:

    "if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, take an ugly woman for your wife".

    Or was it:

    "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, take a big assed woman for your wife".

    Place your bets, gentlemen. The opening line line is twenty to one on 'ugly', ten to one on 'big assed', five to one on just an 'ass' and even money on any combination.

    Grammie

    You mean to tell me LAMO married his imaginary friend? Or does he have a talking doll?

    Posted by: puck at April 21, 2007 2:00 AM


    Trust me...All her dolls are named Bob Cox...

    Puck, I could just as easily ask you why some right wingers need an idealogical demogogue like O'Reilly to deliver a condescending lecture to them every night that he actually calls "talking points", ....and not be put off by it's obvious insult to their own intelligence?

    Puck, I could just as easily ask you why some right wingers need an idealogical demogogue like O'Reilly to deliver a condescending lecture to them every night that he actually calls "talking points", ....and not be put off by it's obvious insult to their own intelligence?

    Posted by: Mike at April 21, 2007 3:59 AM

    You might ask yourself why you must deliever a condescending lecture here daily, generally consisting of pronouncements on the wrongs of others and of your own virtue.

    Not that you're insulting anyone's intelligence. Most people are aware it's what you have in lieu of an actual argument.

    Great: I respond to a Puck post about a Fox demagogue and I'm rewarded with Cecelia's detached brilliance again.

    Your failure to grasp that I am hardly promoting my "own virtue" is hardly surprising. I am not important in the scheme of things and neither are you. Whatever personal 'virtue' I do or don't have is irrelevant. I suppose your theory is that I should be self flatulating myself because I don't prescribe to your notion that a somewhat controversial pundit is to be reviled.

    The more I read these self righteous, distortion and hate filled rants against Olbermann on this site, the more entrenched my belief becomes that you are wrong, and I am right, and I would suspect that this is far closer to the norm than you would like to believe.

    "C’mon Cee, I’d expect more from an intelligent and deeply religious man like yourself."

    Posted by: LMAO at April 20, 2007 9:49 PM

    Don't expect more based on your posts, LMAO. Your nightly Pee Wee Hermanesque, "I know you are but what am I?" retorts only serve the need of a base curiosity in my brainstem that is also satiated by rubbernecking an accident on the NJTP.

    I do not consider myself a religious person....However, your confusion with regards to the foundation of my world-view is understandable based on your writings, LMAO. Your intention for posting on OW is obvious (and common).....but I also suspect you have posted on OW before...under a different name and with different intentions....However, I recognize I could always be wrong (like you say).

    cee (Unicorn Chaser)

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    Yes Mike, we know how much "sense" your posts make. How many times have you been caught in lies? How many times have you tried to insist that you were right and everyone else was wrong despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Just how often have you contradicted your own statements? I've lost count. But you are a neverending source of amusement as you say one thing and then do another, as you tell yet another lie, as you continue to try and dictate what the discussions are about on this board, etc. But if nothing else, you are at least predictable. See, that's a compliment. Kinda.

    Mike writes, "I suppose your theory is that I should be self flatulating myself because..."

    No, my wish is that you stop "self flatulating" yourself and everybody else here as well...

    Trust me Brandon, no one on here except maybe Jeff tops you in predictabilty.

    lil mikey, now he claims to know what everyone is going to say before they say it! The only thing easily predicted are his defending Ulbermahn (the defensless) lying over and over, spinning, diverting from the topic after he is debunked and NEVER admiting when he is wrong. No shame to his lil game....

    The more I read these self righteous, distortion and hate filled rants against Olbermann on this site, the more entrenched my belief becomes that you are wrong, and I am right, and I would suspect that this is far closer to the norm than you would like to believe.

    Posted by: Mike at April 21, 2007 8:12 AM
    Here we go folks. lil mikeys hypocrisy of the day and it's only 8:12 am! Will there be another one today? Stay tuned, it's still early. If I was going to predict, I would say yes.

    Is this the best you can do to find a reason to Invade IRAN ?

    Nothing ! surprises me any more. Hey CHO ! please come back and do a pepering session in the White House ! It would be well appreciated !
    By: BUSHCHENEYOILNAZIS on April 21, 2007 at 11:13am

    This is how a typical post reads at the puffington post. This in response to the American caught selling nuke secrets to Iran. Not surprising, this same nut job accuses the CIA and the gov't being behind the whole thing. So much for a certain olbyloons theory of "we're not like that."

    Mike wouldn't have a reason to live if he couldn't come here to Olbermannwatch and preach to us.

    "Mike wouldn't have a reaon to live if he couldn't come here to Olbermannwatch and preach to us."

    I guess that explains why I was hoping this personal smear site would stay shut down down when they shut it down last month.

    I guess that explains why I was hoping this personal smear site would stay shut down down when they shut it down last month.

    Posted by: Mike at April 21, 2007 9:32 PM

    Sure you were...

    How can you say that exposing a persons outright lies,spins and hypocrisy "smearing" them?

    "How can you say that exposing a persons outright lies, spins and hypocrisy "smearing" them?"

    LOL!

    You wouldn't know a lie, spin, or instance of true hypocrisy if it slapped you in tha face.

    Jeff, you are a riot!

    You wouldn't know a lie, spin, or instance of true hypocrisy if it slapped you in tha face.

    Jeff, you are a riot!

    Posted by: Mike at April 21, 2007 9:56 PM
    My last four or five posts have went undefended by you, because they are indefensible instances of outright hypocrisy!

    "My last five posts have went undefended by you,"

    Theres a reason for that, Jeff. Your arguments are REALLY, REALLY stupid, and I'm tired of trying to come down to your level to attack your silly arguments with counterpoints that literally fly right over your head almost every time.

    'Debating' with you is like barking at a yappy chihuahua, and thats why I keep laughing at your ridiculous 'counterpoints'. They really are a riot!

    Not a bad spin, lil mikey. That would be the "divert" card and outright denial. I won't rub it in too much, don't worry. "My level" that is laughable, coming from someone that calls women horrible names. Your 3rd hypocritical post of the day (ding!), or is it 4? I've lost track, we'll call it 4 for fun.

    Jeff, many, if not most of the posts you make here is a name calling put down of somebody else's ideas. You often do this instead of actually trying to present a coherent argument.

    Do you realize when you call me "lil mikey", you are engaging in name calling by denegrating my name? My name is not "lil mikey", and it never will be. Do you realize when you call your alleged 'professor' friend 'ignorant', you are engaging in name calling. Calling someone 'ignorant' is NOT debating. I could find literally hundreds of examples of these kinds of things.

    Finally, do you realize that when you keep inserting yourself into exchanges I had with other posters, you are butting into something that is none of your business...as well as attempting to judge a situation you can't possibly judge because you were never part of those exchanges....and...last but not least...you are obviously way to biased to judge anything about me.

    It is also dishonest of you to keep bringing up something I called Cecelia without also mentioning the 4 equally offensive names she has called me....and yes, she DID do it first.

    Actually, when I call BovineQueen "ignorant," I do not engage in name calling.

    Because BovineQueen has set the bar sooooo low that calling him "ignorant" is an insult to those who just lack information.

    Main Entry: ig·no·rant
    Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt
    Function: adjective
    1 a : destitute of knowledge or education ; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence
    2 : UNAWARE, UNINFORMED

    BovineQueen's willful and reckless displays of stupidity border on psychosis.

    Main Entry: psy·cho·sis
    Pronunciation: sI-'kO-s&s
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural psy·cho·ses /-"sEz/
    Etymology: New Latin
    : fundamental derangement of the mind (as in schizophrenia) characterized by defective or lost contact with reality especially as evidenced by delusions, hallucinations, and disorganized speech and behavior.

    Booh! There's a Democrat behind you, BOVINE!
    QUICK! REACH FOR THE .44!!

    It is also dishonest of you to keep bringing up something I called Cecelia without also mentioning the 4 equally offensive names she has called me....and yes, she DID do it first.

    Posted by: Mike at April 22, 2007 1:03 AM


    I have since had an indelible mental picture of Bobby Trendy shrieking "Bitch!".

    lil mikey, listen closely. I have never said that I don't name call, as you do all of the time, only to put your foot in your mouth every time. Recently, you have changed to "I only do it when they do it first." How childish is that? Next, I don't think Cecelia has ever denied or claimed she hasn't done it, either, has she? That is the major difference.

    "I have never said I don't name call, as you do all the time"

    Then you have just admitted to being a hypocrite for calling trying to call me down for the rare occasions that I have done it.

    Also, I don't say I don't name call "all the time". I have said it only during the infrequent occasions in which the subject was raised.

    Now Jeff, why don't you try addressing why you cannot bring yourself to respect my name? Is this your way of trying to compensate for your woefully inadequate debating skills? No one will ever take you seriously as long as you keep doing this...because quite frankly, it is VERY childish!

    Yet another example of why you are not taken seriously...just someone good for a laugh.

    Yet another example of why you are not taken seriously...just someone good for a laugh.


    Posted by: Mike at April 22, 2007 2:05 AM
    You've said that 5 times in the last 20 minutes, hasn't it sunk in your brain yet? Tell a lie enough times and you will soon believe it! No, I didn't admit to being a hypocrite, that's your interpretation/spin, wrong as it may be.

    Jeff, I'm kind of tired and am leaving now.

    I've been really patient with you tonight, and have tried to teach you a few things that really would help you if you would just pay attention, but your little mind remains closed to any enlightenment....and that didn't surprise me at all.

    By your own choosing, you will remain nothing but a heckler on this site and therefore I won't have time to pay attention to you most of the time (unless I get in a generous mood again).

    Meanwhile I predict you will keep right on showing why no one takes you seriously....just someone fun to laugh at.

    "Do you realize when you call me "lil mikey", you are engaging in name calling by denegrating my name? My name is not "lil mikey", and it never will be. Do you realize when you call your alleged 'professor' friend 'ignorant', you are engaging in name calling. Calling someone 'ignorant' is NOT debating. I could find literally hundreds of examples of these kinds of things." Wow, where to start? Let me see, you've called me royalhick, royalpain, royalidiot and many others. Preaching again? Yes. Hypocritical? Yes, very. Now, you're trying to preach to me about my conversations with my friends. I called him ignorant, justifiably so, for his ignorant assertion on the road conditions while blaming the war. You've called me an imbOcile how many times? Is that how you debate? More hypocrisy? yes, indeed. More preaching? Yes, indeed.

    Wow Jeff, you just never cease to amaze...the cranial density is astounding.

    First off I never called you an 'imbOcile'. You're the one who attempted to denegrate someone else's intelligence by calling them an 'IMBOCILE", while misspelling the very word you were using to do that with.

    You STILL don't get it do you Jeff? I assure you everyone else on this board gets it. I'm surprised you would even want to bring that up again, but you keep proving I should never be surprised by anything you do.

    All I did was chastise you for doing that....You Still think it was about spelling, don't you Jeff?

    Yes I called you Royalhick, etc. a few times. Don't you know why I did that Jeff? I was naive enough to believe that when you saw that anybody could play that silly game, you would stop acting so childish. That was when I still thought you had some common sense.

    You keep right on demonstrating why you can't be taken seriously....just the butt of an ongoing joke.

    Gnite Jeff!

    One of the unfortunate things of not having any kind of filter on these boards is that all of us have to suffer through dozens of these stupid and childish tit for tat posts.

    lil mikey, you are actually denying that you called me an imbecile?

    One of the unfortunate things of not having any kind of filter on these boards is that all of us have to suffer through dozens of these stupid and childish tit for tat posts.

    Posted by: James at April 22, 2007 8:31 AM
    We've thought about blocking Mike but he's so fun to pick apart and expose, we just couldn't!

    As somebody who, like many of you, doesn't care for Keith Olbermann, I have one thing to say and then I'm gone:

    You all need to get a life. All of you. Look at yourself. Did you really think you'd be doing this when you grew up?

    Cheers.

    "lil mikey, are you actually denying that you called me an imbecile".

    Hell no, I'm denying that I called you an "IMBOCILE".

    IMBOCILE BovineQueen rants:

    A TYPO!!

    A TYPO!!

    Just like last time when I hit the
    "...my mistake. Which actually wasn't a mistake..."
    key by accident.

    GOSH DARN MicroSoft! and their keyboards full of TYPOS!!

    I'm sure that everyone has heard about Karl Rove running from Sheryl Crow. Perhaps the fact that she weighs more than thirty pounds filled him with fear...

    Whatever did it, I'm sure that his button-sized penis changed from an innie to an outie during the confrontation.

    That is the gayest unsolicited comment ever.

    Go kill yourself.

    son,

    Perhaps I should be a little easier on you losers. It must be tough having such ineffectual faggots as your heroes, child...

    You're my hero.

    Ouch, you walked into that.

    Go kill yourself.

    assrat, you're such a nice hypocritical liberal. How loud were you screaming when Ann Coulter referred to the ambulance chaser as a faggot, as a joke? I would guess, pretty loud. You come here and say it, letting your liberal, hypocritical side really shine. Thanks for that. Crow disrespecting Rove is news, how? Can you explain the importance of this?

    Neither Crow nor Rove came out particualrly well in that exchange. And Crow and her liberal-partner-in-crime got what they wanted: attention.

    The satrical parody site The Onion could not have done this better...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/us/politics/21hillary.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

    This site really just gets worse and worse. Well, Rosinante is getting tired, but here's my attempt at content capsulization for today.

    Issue five, the war in Iraq is in fact unwinnable because no one can explain what it would mean to win beyond an outcome that is, at this point, impossible: A stable and secure Iraq that is friendly to U.S. interests and will counter Iranian dominance in the region. That simply cannot happen anymore. And that situation itself was a re-defined scale-back of the original goal, to "plant a seed of democracy" yadda yadda. The failed rollback has turned into a failed containment and we are in a situation many many times worse than we were on 9-11. Iraq has been hollowed out and stapled to Iran. What could be worse? If this isn't a loss (in fact if it isn't the worst FP blunder we have ever made), what would be?

    Issue four, hopefully Gore will run and we will get a carbon tax, IMO the best market driven approach to addressing global warming, in short order. Then maybe it can be extended as mandatory terms for most favored nation trading status, and a carbon tax can be embedded in the Chinese economy from it's infancy.

    Issue 3, Wolfowitz is by all accounts a personally good guy with a pretty high moral code, but as a Straussian has a great ability to deceive himself. He really believes there is nothing wrong with what he did and probably thinks this girlfriend is just the greatest thing ever and that the world will be a better place if she gets all the money and control of the WB. This seems to be yet another unrealistic outflow of PKS (Philosopher King Syndrome) which has so poisoned the land. Alan Bloom, won't you please die?

    Issue 2, er...can't tell if there is anything there.

    And there is no issue one I guess. I don't know. Why is the show called countdown?

    Let those who have ears hear. For the rest, we return you to your regularly scheduled vortex: "Johnny called Suzie a stinky-poo terrorist!" "did no!" "did too!"

    Cecelia, I heard an audio on YouTube the other day from that speech. It is great. Sorry, I don't have the address (?). I linked from somewhere and can't find it myself.

    Grammie

    "It must be tough having such ineffectual faggots..."

    It must be tough being a crass bigot in a world that has less and less room for such narrowminded nonsense.

    VOK, he belongs to your side of the aisle.

    He's all yours, with my wholehearted blessing.

    Grammie

    Royalking,

    More crap from ya, huh son?

    Apparently, you are unaware that the Bush administration is too cowardly to appear before anything but a handpicked crowd. I'm glad I could fill you in, son...

    When a country gets to the point that a large (and imbecilic) portion of its population emulates cowards, it isn't long for this world...

    ROFLMAO!

    BovineQueen called me a "disgrace to liberals"

    I'm soooooooooooooo hurt, I'm going to listen to 3 hours of Flushed Limpo and 3 hours of Sean "Gokkun" Hannity. For sure the 2 clowns will find a worse liberal than me, which will make feel much better.

    - Harry Reid

    There, Bovine.

    Heck, I'll risk to say that even Billdo will cast Harry as a "HATER"

    PLACE YOUR BETS! Bush Supporters!

    LET'S CRUCIFY HARRY AND FREE GONZO!!

    VOK,

    It is a tough world to get a break in...

    ...all the good things have been taken...

    "VOK, he belongs to your side of the aisle.

    He's all yours, with my wholehearted blessing."

    I care?

    "VOK,

    It is a tough world to get a break in...

    ...all the good things have been taken..."

    Well, there are still plenty of crass insensitive slurs to go around apparently.

    VOCK,

    I will allow the gays to own either the word "queer" or the word "faggot"...they don't get both...

    VOK says:

    " . . .we will get a carbon tax, IMO the best market driven approach to addressing global warming . . ."

    If you really want to get some insight into the down-is-up and up-is down thought processes of the 21st century liberal, look no further than this statement by VOK.

    Yes, under VOK's preferred approach we impose a GOVERNMENT tax on products produced by certain industries that the GOVERNMENT decides should bear the burden of such tax. This is the liberal version of a "market driven approach". Only on "Olbyplanet" does such gibberish pass for serious argument.

    hank,

    Yeah, it's pretty ineffective to hit businesses in the pocketbook. I've got an idea...let's appeal to their sense of civic responsibility...

    Ha ha ha ha ha!

    Apparently, you are unaware that the Bush administration is too cowardly to appear before anything but a handpicked crowd. I'm glad I could fill you in, son...

    When a country gets to the point that a large (and imbecilic) portion of its population emulates cowards, it isn't long for this world...

    Posted by: blindrat at April 23, 2007 12:03 PM
    assrat, they "hand pick" their crowds for security reasons, obviously, they couldn't let someone like you or bob in a room with the President of the US. Speaking of which, Hillary is the worst offender of this trick. She hand picks her crowds and still gets heckled, how 's that for irony? On the cowards subject, you must be referring to Dingy Harry. Saying that the "war is lost" one day and flip flopping on it the very next day. Cowardly, to say the least.

    Grammie,

    Thanks, I'll look for it.

    I'm in stitches over the NYT's characterizattion of "housekeeping imagery"! :D

    Bill Clinton didn't have to handpick a crowd, son. Neither should any president. Why whine that your little George is special and needs special care, son? Why try to divert from the topic by bringing up Reid?

    It seems that you have a surprising lack of testes yourself, boy. Maybe that is why you love ol' Bushy. Myself, I prefer that a male act like a man when he is leading the nation...

    By the way, saw Bill Clinton in 1999. Liberals and conservatives alike came to the speech. Suck on that, boy...

    Actually, BR many businesses have voluntarily taken so-called "environmentally friendly" policies, so your attempt at sarcasm is rather pointless. However, you seem rather clueless about my original point though (dressing up goverment imposed solutions as "market driven" displays either stunning ignorance about the most basic fundamentals of economic theory or it is simply a pathetic attempt to deceive).

    hank,

    "Many" does not mean "most", speaking of deception. When there are no environmental laws, there is more pollution. When the laws have no teeth, there is more pollution.

    It's pretty simple, son. Just a matter of thinkin'!

    You are not the real blindrat...son. Get your own identity.

    assrat, you brought up cowards, I just elaborated on the subject, I didn't divert. I also, didn't whine that Bush needs "special" care. I pointed out that all politicians screen their crowds. You chose to spin and put words in my mouth, a common olbyloon tactic, indeed. Lastly, I'm sure you pleasured yourself while in the company of BJ Clinton,but, the fact that there were libby's and conservatives doesn't mean that they were'nt screened first. Little boy.

    When this happened to "Grammie", Cox (or maybe Dollar) stepped right in...

    I won't hold my breath waiting for them...

    Certainly, I can post without a name like I have been...

    Royalking,

    I know that they weren't screened, son. The entire company left their desks and went to the speech.

    Here's a tip, son: Try not writing about thing of which you know nothing. Good boy!

    ar, they were screened, you just don't have the "testes" to admit you are dead wrong.

    We'll just have to agree that you weren't there, like the Swift Boat critics, son...

    Funny how you girls expound so much on things you know nothing about. Like Bush talking about democracy, eh son?

    ar, I wasn't there. I know for a fact that no president will make appearances and leave the door wide open for just anyone to walk right in. You are very delusional to even think that.

    "(dressing up goverment imposed solutions as "market driven" displays either stunning ignorance about the most basic fundamentals of economic theory or it is simply a pathetic attempt to deceive)."

    Currently the activities that produce co2 have privatized benefits and socialized costs. That's a classic predictor of market failure. If you wanted a true working free market solution, you would dictate that what you did on your property had to stay on your property, that you had to deal with your own waste products and not spread them elsewhere. But that is only possible in Randian fiction.

    A carbon tax is a way to privatize the costs of co2 production just as the benefits are now privatized. This is the sense in which I mean it is a market solution.

    "certain industries that the GOVERNMENT decides should bear the burden"

    I think perhaps you are not familiar with this idea at all. It is not targeted at any individual or industry. It simply means you pay for the damage you do, at the consumer level, as you do the damage. Just like a toll on the highway. Also most of the proposals for this are revenue-neutral, that is, they offset the tax receipts generated with tax cuts in another area such as payroll tax. This is not really a liberal position at all, and ultimately (assuming it succeded in reducing hydro-carbon fuel demand) would gradually reduce the size of government if no new taxes were implemented.

    I think the modern Bush "conservative" has just grown a new reflexive appendage that has to kick whenever an oil company is hit. To suggest that a carbon tax is some oppressive government imposed travesty that interferes with the market is about as relevent as complaining that the government is interfering with the natural market by hiring police and judges and locking up thieves.

    If you want to argue that co2 production is not an issue, that it doesn't do any damage, that's one thing. And that is usually where this argument heads next. But absent that, you can't really argue that privatizing the benefit and socializing the cost is either a conservative or free market principle. 'Taint.

    Ah, you are now at the point of pretending to be stupider than you are, child. You are not alone. Most neocons resort to this when I shoot them down...

    I never said that we didn't have to walk through a metal detector. I never said that I didn't have to leave my knife in the car, son. But, that isn't screening.

    Screening, as Bush does it, is making sure that ONLY supporters are in the crowd. I sat next to a Clinton hater, who I debated while we waited for the president to arrive...

    Its not blindrat. Tha phrase structure, grammar, and punctuation are all off. Plus it lacks the spewing vitriolic desperation blindrat developed from a life time of physical and mental abuse.

    I am not saying blindrat's parents abused him. He just likes to write like someone whose parents gave him the business. Of course, it could have been an aunt or an uncle...or even some deformed carny who passed through town and got their gear greased hands on him.

    However you are sir, you are doing a fine disservice to someone we all love and worship.

    Blindrat says:We'll just have to agree that you weren't there, like the Swift Boat critics, son...

    Funny how you girls expound so much on things you know nothing about. Like Bush talking about democracy, eh son?

    These men were there with Kerry. I guess they are lying. Steve Gardner served under Kerry and said Kerry lied about being in Cambodia. I guess he's a liar.

    http://horse.he.net/~swiftpow/index.php?topic=SwiftVetQuotes

    I like to look at things form a common sense standpoint. Kerry won 3 PH's in four months, 11 days for superficial wounds, none required a stay in the hospital and required a new salve that is known as Neosporin today. One wound self-inflicted. No true combat vet would have turned in any of these wounds for a PH. I'm surprised Kerry didn't get one stepping off the airplane.

    Kerry shot a wounded kid in the back.

    Kerry is no more a war hero or comabt vet than Bill Clinton.

    "George Tenet will not only be tough on Republicans. The former chief spook also takes on Bill Clinton. In "At the Center of the Storm," he describes how he had to establish a back-channel relationship in the late 1990s with Republican Newt Gingrich, who was then House speaker, to obtain a much-needed influx of dollars for the intelligence community.
    Clinton's annual budgets slashed the CIA's clandestine service by 25 percent at a time when it was trying to penetrate Osama bin Laden's organization.
    Over the objections of the Clinton administration, Tenet had to try to offset the cuts by obtaining additional funding through supplemental appropriations. Supplementals, however, are only good for a year and are no way to rebuild an agency, which was decimated by Clinton.
    Beyond the hits at Democrats, Republicans will be cheered that the book leaves Bush relatively unscathed. Some Democrats have charged that Bush and his key lieutenants manipulated pre-war intelligence to make a strong case that Saddam had or was about to acquire weapons of mass destruction. Tenet provides these critics no smoking guns. Besides the fact that every major intelligence agency in the world believed Saddam had WMD, Saddam's own generals believed it."

    Does Sandy Berger have enough room in his pants to hide all the copies of this book? :)

    blindrat - if its really you answer this one question:

    where does one pick up an oem throttle cable tube for a 1967 karmann ghia?

    Frank,

    Are you aware of what projection is, son? You neocons do it quite a bit. If you want to discuss the point that I raised, fine...

    However, if it is beyond you, why do a disservice to the science of phychology by pretending you have some insight into it?

    Anon (14:07),

    Eye witness accounts certainly make your diatribe look ridiculous, son. I found it most amusing when one of the swiftboater smearers claimed that they hadn't come under fire; then, it turned out that he'd received a medal for the same incident, for being under fire (three bullet holes in the boat).

    If you've got something intelligent to say, I'd be glad to see it...

    ROFLMAO!

    Are you going to "catch and release" BovineQueen?

    or are you going to have him stuffed up for display?

    I say you release BovineQueen.
    Don't spoil the fun for the rest.

    Anon 2:07 wants to open up the Swift Boat smear debate all over again, even though it's been run through the ringer far too many times.

    Anon, whether you like it or not, The term "swift boat" has become another widely used term similar to 'McCarthyism' that has simply come to mean an unfair personal SMEAR campaign....and recognized by everyone as such.

    But hey, lighten up Anon...your side probably WON the critical 2004 election using this despicable SMEAR tactic. Because your side 'won' that election, and elections really do have consequences, we're probably going to end up sacrificing at least several thousand more young American lives trying to stave off the SAME sorry inevitable result in Iraq.

    People like you are the ones who have to try to sleep at night with this on your conscience...IF you have one, not me.

    As one who used to vote Republican regularly, I for one, will probably never vote Republican again...and the swift boat SMEAR campaign is one of the reasons.

    As one who used to vote Republican regularly, I for one, will probably never vote Republican again...and the swift boat SMEAR campaign is one of the reasons.

    Posted by: Mike at April 23, 2007 2:38 PM

    If anyone wishes to commit ritual suicide over this...eh....declaration....I hear the sprook is the utensil of choice.

    Anon, whether you like it or not, The term "swift boat" has become another widely used term similar to 'McCarthyism' that has simply come to mean an unfair personal SMEAR campaign....and recognized by everyone as such.

    But hey, lighten up Anon...your side probably WON the critical 2004 election using this despicable SMEAR tactic. Because your side 'won' that election, and elections really do have consequences, we're probably going to end up sacrificing at least several thousand more young American lives trying to stave off the SAME sorry inevitable result in Iraq.
    Posted by: Mike at April 23, 2007 2:38 PM

    Your right Mike, elections do have consequences. Like when your side voted for Bill Clinton and he slashed the intellegence budget while the CIA was trying to find Osama. "Clintonistas" has become another term for smear campaign.

    "If anyone whishes to commit ritual suicide over this...eh...declaration....I hear the sprook is the utensil of choice."

    Not a chance Anon. America clearly needs people with a conscience to stick around and save it from people who don't...such as yourself.

    Blindrat imposter.

    The fact Maurice nailed you is terribly obvious now since your response is to just ignore him.

    Factor says: ""Clintonistas" has become another term for smear campaign."

    Funny, Factor...I've never heard that one before. Is that something going around your extreme right wing focus group?...or did you hear that on O'Reilly?

    Also Factor...one correction; I never voted for Clinton.

    HA!

    Frank William Abagnale, Jr was the character from the movie "Catch Me If You Can."

    He was a con artist specializing in identity fraud. And now he's outed Blindrat.

    Ah, the ole "smear" campaign. I love how Libby's call anyone who exposes lies and hypocrisy's of the dem party a "smear" campaign. Kinda like a certain olbyloon calling this site a "smear" site. Exposing truth does not make the Libby's and loons very happy. Assrat says "you don't know what you're talking about" every time he is debunked, you call that debating, assrat? Ever heard of "proof?" I'll say the same thing to you you just used, If you've got something intelligent to say, I'd be glad to see it!

    "A carbon tax is a way to privatize the costs of co2 production just as the benefits are now privatized. This is the sense in which I mean it is a market solution."

    Yes, sort of the way that the Clintons characterized new taxes as "contributions and "investments". Of course, VOK the one thing you cannot get around that ultimately exposes your attempt to mischaraterize this scheme as "market driven": Who will be imposing this carbon tax? Who will make the decision about the levels of co2 that are permissable? Who will decide whether producers of some products will be exempt? My quibble with you is your attempt to co-opt the language of free enterprise and affix it to a government run program.

    "To suggest that a carbon tax is some oppressive government imposed travesty that interferes with the market is about as relevent as complaining that the government is interfering with the natural market by hiring police and judges and locking up thieves."


    Everyone agrees that if the goverment did not hire police and judges and lock up thieves, there would no other means to avert anarchy and our constitutional republic as we know it could not survive. Not everyone agrees with Al Gore that if the governement does not impose a carbon tax that we will consign ourselves to a future of tides rising by 20 feet over their present levels and other associated horrors. So your attempt to argue that the government imposition of a carbon tax is as equally justified as its functions of hiring police, judges and locking up thieves rings rather hollow. Nice try though.

    Factor,

    Clinton was in the EXECUTIVE branch. The budget is created by the LEGISLATIVE branch...

    You're welcome, son...

    One more thing. God Bless the Swift Boaters! Can't wait for '08!

    Yes, yes, I know it is signed by the EXECUTIVE branch. But I am stil way smarter and intelliginter than you...son.

    Royalking,

    January 28 1999...I was there...you weren't, son...

    You lose, boy...

    Factor says: ""Clintonistas" has become another term for smear campaign."

    Funny, Factor...I've never heard that one before. Is that something going around your extreme right wing focus group?...or did you hear that on O'Reilly?

    Also Factor...one correction; I never voted for Clinton.

    Posted by: Mike at April 23, 2007 2:56 PM

    Where does "Swift Boated" come from Mike? MoveOn, Kos, or Huffington? You watch Olbermann every night and you want to tell me what a smear. Olbermann's show is an hour-long smear.
    Sure you didn't vote for Clinton, he just magically got elected. Funny how all you left wing Bush bashers try and convince us that you either once were conservative or are conservative.

    "Lets take another look at Jeff's (Royalking) ideas of "truth"

    - Stephen Cobert is really a conservative "making fun of the libs".

    - If he thinks someone is dumb, he calls them an "IMBOCILE".

    - He once claimed that I was the only anti - OW poster on this board, using the names of everyone else.....or 'maybe' there was just one other one (named Bob).

    - Just a week or so ago, he actually exposed himself as not knowing Paul Wolfowitz was one of the chief architects of the Iraq war.

    - Recently he defended himself by saying "I made a mistake but it really wasn't a mistake".

    - There's many more where those came from.

    But he knows all about the swift boat "truth"!...............LOL

    According To the book of Jeff, the definition of 'truth' is anything that compliments Bush, the Neocons, and the extreme right....or opposes the Democrats and Keith Olbermann.

    "When this happened to "Grammie", Cox (or maybe Dollar) stepped right in...

    I won't hold my breath waiting for them...

    Certainly, I can post without a name like I have been...
    Posted by: blindrat at April 23, 2007 1:34 PM'

    The accurate way to phrase that is 'When I did that to grammie".

    Grammie

    "Not everyone agrees with Al Gore that if the governement does not impose a carbon tax that we will consign ourselves to a future of tides rising by 20 feet over their present levels and other associated horrors."

    Right. Well, wrong...we don't have to go that far (cataclysm) to say that there is a social cost to co2 buildup. And the vast majority of scientists do agree that these costs do exist. But right in the sense that this is the ground upon which I said you could have a legitimate argument if you want to try to make it, and where the conversation must head. You need to say global warming isn't happening or isn't affected by hydrocarbon use.

    But your argument in principle, that a carbon tax is anti-market because the government is involved, and that I am deceptive in using market language is simply wrong. It would be objectively wrong even if it weren't couched in combative partisan language as it is. In cases where there naturally exist privatized benefits and socialized cost, unregulated markets produce economic "errors." If you can create a cost and externalize it, then you are distorting a market no less than a thief does. In addressing this economic error, the government supports the free market. You can find SOME economists that may quibble with this, but they border on anarchists, and it does definitely reflect standard accepted economic theory. Agreed?

    "I like to look at things form a common sense standpoint. Kerry won 3 PH's in four months, 11 days for superficial wounds, none required a stay in the hospital and required a new salve that is known as Neosporin today......"

    Posted by: at April 23, 2007 2:07 PM"

    If every soldier, airman, or Marine got a PH for the same things Kerry did, the casualty rates today would be 75,000 casualties per 100,000 active duty military.

    Grammie

    lil mikey has resorted to lying to try to make it look like someone else is a liar, unbelievable! Did I say I didn't know who Wolfwitz was? Someone called the war "Wolfowitzs war" and I replied by saying (sarcastically) "I thought it was Bush and Cheneys war, I wish you loons would make up your minds who's war it is." You lunged at the chance to call me "dummy" out of shear desperation because you didn't get it and you had the froth a flowin! No, just another lie. Chalk one up for the 23rd of April.The list is getting longer. It's bad enough being an olbyloon,but, a desperate olbyloon, ouch....

    Factor:

    - Where does "swift boat" come from?": It doesn't really matter where it "came from". What matters is what it has come to mean in everyday terminology....an unfounded SMEAR compaign!

    - "You watch Olbermann every night": Who says...you? I don't even have TIME to watch Olbermann every night.

    - "Sure you never voted for Clinton": Another right winger implying someone else is lying because they don't voice the correct stereotypical words to fit their talking points. Also, like I've said at least 10 times on this board, I voted for Bush, the so called 'conservative' in 2000. And I STILL feel gulty about that.

    Finally Factor, if your head wasn't stuck firmly in the sand, you would know that you don't have to be "left Wing" at all to bash Bush these days...just cognizant of reality.

    Wow! Now Grammie knows all about war. Perhaps she is a veteran...

    Perhaps she is another neocon, spouting off about nothing...

    Bye folks, gonna take that ol' commuter bus now!

    Anything the Loons can cut up or take out of context, is word for word to them.

    How's your conscience doing Grammie? It doesn't sound at all like you're starting to develop one to me.

    Kerry actually solicited (wrote letters recommending himself) and said "look at me, look at what I did" for those medals he got. Just like the home movie he made of himself walking through the jungle behind their base camp or in camp, wherever it was. A true soldier would do none of the above!

    Now royalking knows what it's like to be a soldier...

    hilarious!

    A random sampling from all of Blindrat's emails above. Don't believe me, do a text search.

    button-sized penis
    faggots
    isn't long
    been taken
    gays
    queer
    faggot
    fill you in, son
    your little George
    surprising lack of testes
    I prefer that a male act
    Suck on that, boy
    like a man
    no teeth
    hold my breath
    Good boy
    you girls
    child
    leave my knife
    the point that I raised
    smearers
    for being under
    I'd be glad to see it
    You're welcome, son
    You lose, boy

    Is it possible to turn these over to Dateline: To Catch a Predator? Will be just as guilty when he acts for ignoring these warnings.

    I am sending this to:
    Admin@perverted-justice.com - If you are media, reporting a chat service as being rife with predators, seeking business or organizational affiliate contacts, are a software developer, seeking help for an internet abducted child or teen or have any criticism, complaints or suggestion, please email this address. Your email is important to us and we will handle all those that are appropriate.


    anonyloon/coward, My grandfather didn't "request" a single medal he received. A true soldier doesn't "request" medals, idiot.

    "In addressing this economic error, the government supports the free market. You can find SOME economists that may quibble with this, but they border on anarchists, and it does definitely reflect standard accepted economic theory. Agreed?"

    At least you are starting to be a little more honest in your characterization of the program you advocate. To say that this really is a "market driven" program because this government program "supports" the free market is a oxymoron. I can cite to you multitudes of government programs that I can claim help to smooth out so called economic "errors" and use this "logic" to call them "market driven" solutions, but that does nor make them so. This is because the sector of the economy that produces goods and services that result in carbon emissions is regulated by the government, not the market. You can call this program a pumpkin that turns into a stagecoach if you want VOK, it just isn't a market solution no matter what you say.

    "But [you are] right in the sense that this is the ground upon which I said you could have a legitimate argument if you want to try to make it, and where the conversation must head. You need to say global warming isn't happening or isn't affected by hydrocarbon use."

    This is a false choice. The third option is that carbon emissions are having some small effect on our environment but not nearly to the extent that other factors are. Therefore, a carbon tax is not what we should be focusing on.


    Something's not right on that blindrat fellow.

    Join the club, Waylon.

    Grammie

    Something's not right on that blindrat fellow.

    Posted by: Waylon at April 23, 2007 4:50 PM


    Well....if you say so....

    "To say that this really is a "market driven" program because this government program "supports" the free market is a oxymoron. "

    Well, what I meant of course is that the reduction of greenhouse gasses would be driven by market choices, as the government re-internalized the externalized cost of burning hydrocarbons. Passing a carbon tax itself is of course not a market-driven phenomena in the narrow sense, which is what you seem to have interpreted as my meaning. But the subsequent reduction in carbon emmission would be driven by market forces. That is why I said "market driven approach to addressing global warming," not market driven approach to... passing laws?

    "This is because the sector of the economy that produces goods and services that result in carbon emissions is regulated by the government, not the market. "

    No. Again, it is a tax at the consumer level on the use itself, at the point that the cost is externalized (burning.) It is wrong to call this regulation of a sector of the economy. You could make a better case for that with cap and trade, which maybe is what you are thinking of.

    "This is a false choice. The third option is that carbon emissions are having some small effect on our environment but not nearly to the extent that other factors are. Therefore, a carbon tax is not what we should be focusing on."

    This is arguing degree, not kind. If you accept that there is any GW related cost to burning hydrocarbons, and you believe in well regulated markets without externalizing costs, then you would support a carbon tax in principle. I guess you are saying maybe you do support that in principle but that it just isn't a big priority.

    That's fine. I would suggest that if you look at all the numbers and demographics, even if you aren't that worried about it's effect right now, it might not be a bad idea to get a mode of addressing this embedded now. Especially thinking about China and India and the fact that we have a lot more relative economic pull right now than we may in the future. Also thinking that if the majority of scientists are right, that at some point we are going to see the kind of effects that gets people to make bad political decisions that might be a lot more repressive and less market oriented than this one.

    Oh...royalking has a veteran relative. That's how he supports the troops. I'm sure that your grandfather loved how you girls trash Kerry, Murtha and Cleland, eh pansy?

    No progress. No progress at all. Now you're arguing over kerry? Eeeeeegad. I can't hang in much longer.

    Issue five, the war in Iraq is in fact unwinnable because no one can explain what it would mean to win beyond an outcome that is, at this point, impossible: A stable and secure Iraq that is friendly to U.S. interests and will counter Iranian dominance in the region. That simply cannot happen anymore. And that situation itself was a re-defined scale-back of the original goal, to "plant a seed of democracy" yadda yadda. The failed rollback has turned into a failed containment and we are in a situation many many times worse than we were on 9-11. Iraq has been hollowed out and stapled to Iran. What could be worse? If this isn't a loss (in fact if it isn't the worst FP blunder we have ever made), what would be?

    A show of hands from either side of the aisle:

    Have our efforts in Iraq thus far created or eliminated more terrorists?

    Answer and explain...

    If the war question is too 'off-topic' for you, how about:

    Whether pro-countdown or anti-countdown, how often do you actually watch it?

    Never, Seldom, Often, Always?

    I know Johnny always watches...how about you?

    >Not a single thing LMAO is posting is the truth, but that's nothing new for either Olbermann or his flying band of loons now is it?

    Do you suppose Brandon knows that OW has fake quotes from dead people on it?

    Let's not tell him...

    When people are sleep walking, you're not supposed to wake them.

    This is kinda like that...

    Sleep tight Brandon...

    "You have to make sure you throw in your two cents on EVERY SINGLE thread continuously 24 / 7 and you think I’m ‘Out There.’ Coming from you, that makes me feel pretty good! Oh, and in case I haven’t told you lately, you’re such a douche."lmao
    I since a tad bit of jealousy from the loon known as lmao. He, who sits salivating at the face to make the first post every night!

    "No progress. No progress at all. Now you're arguing over kerry? Eeeeeegad. I can't hang in much longer.
    Posted by: VOK at April 23, 2007 6:21 PM "

    Oh, please, please follow your instincts!

    We are not worthy of you. You should ply your pseudo intellect and poison pen elsewhere. So many minds out there to be enlightened by you.

    We have received all the enlightenment from you that any man can bear.

    Grammie

    "Passing a carbon tax itself is of course not a market-driven phenomena in the narrow sense, which is what you seem to have interpreted as my meaning. But the subsequent reduction in carbon emmission would be driven by market forces."

    Well VOK you seem to have twisted yourself up into a pretzel to dress up a government tax into a market driven approach. Only in a very technical sense can an activity that is subject to a government tax be said to be a market driven activity. The imposition of the tax by the government incentivizes consumers to make certain choices, if it operates in the way its advocates envision. If the government tax is the factor that influences the behavior, that is the very antithesis of a market driven approach. My so called "interpretation" of your statement is not an interpretation at all. My explanantion of why your claim that the carbon tax is a market driven approach is wrong is derived from the plain meaning of what a market driven approach to an economic activity is. No fancy explanations make your favored approach something that it is not.

    "If you accept that there is any GW related cost to burning hydrocarbons, and you believe in well regulated markets without externalizing costs, then you would support a carbon tax in principle."

    Sure, if we lived in a never never land where such taxes did not have real world consequences. I think this is what lawmakers had in mind when they acted to stop the Kyoto Protocol by passing Sen. Resolution 98 by a vote of 95-0.

    Further, I would not support such a tax because there are much graver proven threats to our existence than a debatable threat of global warming caused by co2. The media's decision to cease allowing dissenting voices to weigh is on the issue of whether warmer temperatures at this time are caused by human activity is journalistic malpractice.

    I think you think Kyoto and a carbon tax are similar approaches. They aren't. Cap and trade or offset on the one hand and simple market force without externalized costs on the other. The one dictates outputs, the other simply correctly assigns costs and lets the market do the rest. Let's make sure we are arguing about the same thing.

    "Only in a very technical sense can an activity that is subject to a government tax be said to be a market driven activity."

    Do you want to take another crack at that? By this, every commercial transaction conducted in the U.S. is not a market driven activity. Interesting theory, professor Rand, but I think it needs work.

    "My explanantion of why your claim that the carbon tax is a market driven approach..."

    Once again, since you seem to just want to get technical with language rather than address the substance, I don't claim the carbon tax ITSELF is a market driven approach. What the hell would that mean? The carbon tax fixes the market error of externalized costs. Follow me here: you dump your garbage over the fence into your neighbor's yard- externalized cost. You take your garbage to the dump and pay a fee: internalized cost. Re-internalizing an externalized cost allows the market itself to address the problem, as it would if true ownership of something like pollution could be tracked to it's source. The reduction in co2 is market-driven. The tax itself doesn't change the behavior. The correct assignment of all the costs changes the behavior.

    "Further, I would not support such a tax because there are much graver proven threats to our existence than a debatable threat of global warming caused by co2. "

    Like what? And aside from that, what do you think of this line of reasoning: I'm not going to fix my leaky roof because I smoke.
    or:
    I'm not going to stop pooping on my neighbor's porch either because he is really overreacting...it isn't going to kill him!

    "The media's decision to cease allowing dissenting voices to weigh is on the issue of whether warmer temperatures at this time are caused by human activity is journalistic malpractice."

    Ah, if only we lived in a free society where all the mountains of evidence that global warming is a liberal plot weren't censored! Gosh, if only there were news outlets that would tell us these truths, like some radio ot tv show or website or something. I'd pay to hear that!

    To quote prince Hal, I will. I do.

    "I think you think Kyoto and a carbon tax are similar approaches"

    Wrong, I never said that. I am simply saying that government imposed solutions as opposed to market based solutions have enormous economic consequences and the 95-0 vote on the Senate Resolution reflects these concerns. I am not arguing that the carbon tax and Kyoto are the same animal, but they do both have pernicious economic consequences.

    I probably should have said:

    "Only in a very technical sense can an activity that is wholly subject to a government tax be said to be a market driven activity"

    As I understand the carbon tax, all activities that result in co2 production (unless legislatively exempted) would be subject to a government tax, thus the activity is "wholly" subject to a governement tax.

    "Once again, since you seem to just want to get technical with language rather than address the substance . . ."

    VOK, you can call my critique of your insistence that this tax is market driven an attempt on my part to "get technical", but I would dispute your label. See, words mean things and liberals understand that it is important for them to co-opt terms that sound palatable so that the unsuspecting citizenry will not closely scrutinze the consequences of what they want to do.

    Here is an example to show how you have misused the language of the "markets" to sell your government imposed idea:

    Let's say that I claim to be a shining example of how to be an environmentally conscious citizen and I go around the country showing my impressive Power Point presentation on what I believe to be the dangers of "global warming". However, in service of this noble goal, I use my gas guzzling, carbon emmitting Hummer to get from place to place. So, could I claim that I am following the approach of an "environmentally conscious" citizen? Yes, I could if I wanted to twist my argument by saying that my use of the Hummer "supported" (remember this word, VOK? )the goal of promoting environmental conscious policies.

    In like manner, if you say that you are promoting free market approaches but you use government taxation that is explcitly designed to incentivize actors in the market towards certain behaviors, your approach is not a market approach unless you make the disingenous argument that using government intervention "supports" the goal of promoting free markets. Only in an environment where markets are allowed to freely operate can an approach be said to be a "market driven" approach (industires taking voluntary emission reduction neasures is an example of a true market driven approach). This is not a technicality VOK, it is ensuring that words are used as they were meant to be used.

    "When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean"


    "if only we lived in a free society where all the mountains of evidence that global warming is a liberal plot weren't censored"

    Once again a distortion. I never said or implied that there was a "liberal plot". I simply note that the overwhelming majority of "news" reporting on this issue assumes that there are no arguments to be made for the proposition that it is far from a settled matter than warmer temperatures are caused by human activity. I think that is is an irresponsible approach. I have no idea whether this is the result of a "liberal plot" or not and don't really have nay speculation on that matter.

    VOK:

    The Lewis Carroll quote by Humpty Dumpty:

    "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean"

    is, of course, a reference to your attempt to make the term "market driven" mean what you choose for it to mean.

    Hank, I hope you don't mind if I add this to my lexicon:

    "The Lewis Carroll quote by Humpty Dumpty:

    "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean".

    After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

    Grammie

    Be my guest! I consider it a high compliment for someone whose posts are chocked full of insight and wit to borrow from me. Have an Absolut on the rocks for me!

    hank + grammie = a mutual admiration society of the sickest kind.

    Cheers!

    >>>>"Only in a very technical sense can an activity that is wholly subject to a government tax be said to be a market driven activity"

    I don't understand how this changes anything. Buying a car is wholly subject to a government tax. So buying cars is not a market driven activity? I don't get it. Must be another "meaning" thing.

    >>>>"When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean"

    is, of course, a reference to your attempt to make the term "market driven" mean what you choose for it to mean.
    >>>>>>>

    Yeah I got that, but how about we change it to "when I say what you said, and it isn't what you said, it is what you said if I say so." Singsongy, no?

    To what do I refer?

    "...of your insistence that this tax is market driven"

    Jesus Christ. How many times are you going to stuff this in my mouth? ONCE AGAIN. FOR THE THIRD TIME. The TAX is not market driven. NOT. NOT NOT NOT NOT. NOT NOT NOT NOT. Not market driven. Not market driven. Stop me when this sinks in. Lots of things aren't market driven but support or correct the free market so it works for us rather than against us.

    What IS market driven is the reduction in emmisions dumped in my yard once the cost of emmission is re-assigned to the creator of that cost rather than externalized to society at large. The tax is a way to re-internalize a cost that is being externalized because it is impossible to track this kind of dumping. Once the error of externalization is removed, then the market functions properly. You dump garbage in my yard. The police fine you. You stop dumping garbage in my yard and market driven, for-profit dumps are created.

    I am not a "liberal" trying to coopt your language. I believe in the power of markets much more than in the power of government projects, because I believe in direct incentive. Reapply the whole cost of burning hydrocarbons to that act, take out the externality--rather than subsidizing it ten ways to Sunday--and you will see the market produce effective solutions both in conservation and alternative energy ten times faster than any bunch of government grants can. I understand you may think that is not a worthwhile goal, but then why not just argue that point?

    "I simply note that the overwhelming majority of "news" reporting on this issue assumes that there are no arguments to be made for the proposition that it is far from a settled matter than warmer temperatures are caused by human activity."

    The "news" simplifies everything, by the general consensus. So what? The hard information is out there and the spin is out there on both sides of the issue. So what? The general opinon of the scientific community is that a human produced or accentuated greenhouse effect does now exist and will accelerate in the future. What's your quibble? If you want to make it, make it.

    Hank, how sweet of you.

    ".... Have an Absolut on the rocks for me!
    Posted by: hank at April 24, 2007 6:12 PM"

    I will absolutely (or should that be Absolutly) take your advice immediately.:)

    Cheers!

    Grammie

    "when I say what you said, and it isn't what you said, it is what you said if I say so."

    Clever, but not particularly germane since I haven't distorted or misqoted anything you have said.


    "Gore will run and we will get a carbon tax, IMO the best market driven approach to addressing global warming"

    Posted by: VOK at April 23, 2007 11:48 AM

    The TAX is not market driven. NOT. NOT NOT NOT NOT. NOT NOT NOT NOT. Not market driven. Not market driven.

    Posted by: VOK at April 24, 2007 7:14 PM


    "Gore will run and we will get a carbon tax, IMO the best market driven approach to addressing global warming"

    Yup, it's too quick and vague. That's why I respectfully addressed your interpretation, and explained it several times. You don't really care about any restatements or explanations, because you don't care about the real meaning. To you, this is a war about ownership of words rather than a discussion--you think you own "market-driven" and I want to co-opt it. And yet your own (modified) definition of market-driven is so weird that it is would be totally unrecognizable to an economist and only geared to deligitimize all taxes. You changed it, which I accept, and need to change it more, you will I think agree. By the current definition all purchases in the United States are not market driven.

    And yet I'm not yet at the point of quoting nursery rhymes about you. Why is that? The difference between us is that you are primarily interested in words, and which ones are "yours" and which are "theirs," as you note:

    "See, words mean things and liberals understand that it is important for them to co-opt terms that sound palatable so that the unsuspecting citizenry will not closely scrutinze the consequences of what they want to do."

    I believe there is a real problem and that there is a real solution that respects the economic liberalism that is the cornerstone of our state. You think that might threaten a word or economic way of talking that you think belongs to conservatives. How you could still think that boat didn't sail in the last 6 years of unprecedented government growth I don't know. But that is what you are talking about.

    In case you want to have a discussion, here's my new twisted up pretzle of a statement, so fraught with postmodern libereral confusion as it is:

    I hope Gore will run. I hope so because he is likely to favor a carbon tax. I favor a carbon tax because a system that includes a carbon tax is the best market driven approach to addressing global warming.

    Gore should run. He could win...again...

    It would be interesting having an adult as president again...

    "You don't really care about any restatements or explanations, because you don't care about the real meaning."

    Wrong again. I went to great pains in a previous post to explain to you why the carbon tax is not a free market solution. Here it is again:

    "Let's say that I claim to be a shining example of how to be an environmentally conscious citizen and I go around the country showing my impressive Power Point presentation on what I believe to be the dangers of "global warming". However, in service of this noble goal, I use my gas guzzling, carbon emmitting Hummer to get from place to place. So, could I claim that I am following the approach of an "environmentally conscious" citizen? Yes, I could if I wanted to twist my argument by saying that my use of the Hummer "supported" (remember this word, VOK? )the goal of promoting environmental conscious policies.

    In like manner, if you say that you are promoting free market approaches but you use government taxation that is explcitly designed to incentivize actors in the market towards certain behaviors, your approach is not a market approach unless you make the disingenous argument that using government intervention "supports" the goal of promoting free markets. Only in an environment where markets are allowed to freely operate can an approach be said to be a "market driven" approach (industires taking voluntary emission reduction measures is an example of a true market driven approach). This is not a technicality VOK, it is ensuring that words are used as they were meant to be used."


    I attempted to make these distinctions to make clear that my differences with you are more than merely semantical. You are free to differ with my rationale, but you can't say that I am simply quibbling about your use of a word when I have explicitly explained to you why I think it is wrong.

    "Buying a car is wholly subject to a government tax. So buying cars is not a market driven activity I don't get it. Must be another "meaning" thing ."

    I was referring to an "activity" in the sense of the use of natural resources. Here is an example that I think is closely related to your carbon tax approach. For example, if the government imposes water rationing
    in the case of a drought and imposes fines on those who use water outside the times that the government assigns to them, do you call that a free market approach? Under you definition, I would guess that you would because the government is simply correcting "errors" in the market caused by the drought. I do not call this a free market approach. I would call voluntary rationing a free market approach becaue actors in the market are making decisions without encumberence by the government.

    "And yet I'm not yet at the point of quoting nursery rhymes about you."

    "Through the Looking-Glass" (the source of my quote I applied to your arguments) is a work of fiction by Lewis Caroll, not a nursery rhyme


    Hank, I appreciate that you are trying to address some issue of content. But I don't think we are getting anywhere, and I think it is primarily because you are very attached to "market-driven" as a term that is opposite to government action. It isn't. Let's define market-driven, the term in question. I say it is when free choices made in the market result in some effect, regardless of whether the products and processes in the market are taxed either prior to or after their availability in the market. What do you say it is and isn't?

    Further, why do you need analogies in this case? The first one was bad and the second is worse. Just address the thing we are talking about. Or at least come up with things that really are similar. You just introduced an element of timing and rationing which is emphatically not present in the carbon tax. Why? What is the justification for that? It is totally gratuitous. Carbon tax. No quotas. No caps. No timing. Just reinternalized costs.

    The carbon tax simply says you can't dump crap into the atmosphere for free, because it isn't free, there are costs associated with that. Just like when I dump garbage in your yard. Unless something is done to reinternalize that cost (a tax or fine or you punching me in the mouth) I'll keep dumping it there. Once the cost is reinternalized, I make different market choices. For-profit dumps spring up. The creation of the dumps is market-driven. Me using them is market driven. The solution to the problem of trash everywhere is market driven. But the market would not create the dumps until the cost externalization represented by your dumping your crap in my yard for free is reassigned to the person creating the cost, you.

    The only way I can see, as I have said, that you can get around this is to say that dumping carbon does not have a cost. Either it does or it doesn't. Either it's a free market principle to dump those costs on third parties or it's not. Apparently you don't want to say it doesn't have a cost, and argue against the scientific consensus.

    What's the definition of market driven? Does burning HC's involve externalized costs or not? Should costs be assigned to their creators in an efficient market or not? Does reinternalizing externalized costs by government action mean that all market choices associated with these costs lose the name "market-driven?" Why don't we go ahead and address these things before we drift into bashing each other with either rhymes or fiction.

    Issue five, the war in Iraq is in fact unwinnable because no one can explain what it would mean to win beyond an outcome that is, at this point, impossible: A stable and secure Iraq that is friendly to U.S. interests and will counter Iranian dominance in the region.

    I thought the Iraq we invaded was stable and secure and already countered Iranian dominance in the region (which, by it's very nature, is friendly to US interests.)

    Say what you want about Saddam the Evil Dictator, but he didn't exactly have a yen for religious extremism or bin laden's bunch.

    Latest Comment: The war is unwinnable not because the enemy can not be defined --- but because half of the nation will not listen. Iraq was a haven of parisitic national terrorism and it is a good thing that we went in there. You peacenick anti war types are nothing but a thorn in the side of people trying to win the war in Iraq or any other mission overseas. T

    Obama said: "Iraq was a haven of paristic national terrorism and it is a good thing that we went in there."

    You ARE joking.....right? I mean, really...you couldn't possibly be serious about the statement you just made, could you.....COULD YOU????

    It's true mike. An enemy defender such as yourself will continue to deny it. I don't know why you don't move there, if it's so nice.

    "I think it is primarily because you are very attached to "market-driven" as a term that is opposite to government action."

    Yes that's what I have repeatedly stated in my posts above. You keep stating that the carbon tax is really "market driven" because it "reinternalizes costs" . OK, so what force is "driving" these costs towards being "reinternalized"? It is the government tax. Without the government acting, there is no cost reinternalization. See, VOK, in a "market driven" process, it is not the government that is the force driving the decisions of the actors-- it is the actors themselves, the participants in the market. Can you not see the internal logical inconsistency in claiming that a process in which it is the governement that incentivizes participants in a transaction is "market driven"?

    "Further, why do you need analogies in this case? . . . . Why? What is the justification for that? It is totally gratuitous."

    No, it isn't. Of course, the examples in my analogies differ from your carbon tax example. That's because my examples (industries that impose voluntary emission controls and voluntary water rationing) are examples of "market driven" processes and your example of the carbon tax is not. So, you would expect my examples to be different from yours. Pretty simple really.

    Hank I understand your point and have said again and again and again that I am not calling the tax itself market driven. You won't let me off that for some reason, I guess because that is what you think you can "win" on. Actually, if I wanted to go there, the tax itself could be called market driven in a grander sense that in a democracy the laws themselves are the result of a free political market, where consumers make cost-benefit choices. But I am not making that argument. I'm sticking to traditional economics.

    Just please please please define "market-driven" for me. You don't want me to use it as I have or at least not in the wayin which you keep characterizing me as using it. But your stated and modified definitions to this point would mean that there are no market driven economic phenomena at all in the U.S., because all economic transactions are subject to regulation and tax which changes their prices. Refusing to allow me to use a term that in your current definition is either Randian or meaningless is not even war over words, it's war over a collection of sylables.

    What is the definition of market-driven? Can a free market function correctly with externalized costs? Is it a free market principle to assign costs to the creators of those cost, or to another random party? Are for-profit garbage dumps market-driven or not? Pick any of these and answer it. Here is the idea of the carbon tax: Assign the costs of burning hydrocarbons to those who burn them in the proportion that they burn them. This is fairness in its simplest form. As a market-driven side effect, global warming will hopefully be reduced, and there will ultimately be no need for capping, rationing, policing, and a host of other things that are far more intrusive and difficult for markets to deal with.