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    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    May 31, 2007
    ACLU Fetes Keith Olbermann

    ACLU%20Mass%20Dinner.jpg

    Keith Olbermann will be the featured speaker tonight at the ACLU of Massachusetts "Bill of Rights Dinner".

    Any loyal Olbermann Watch readers out there who can make their way over to the Boston Park Plaza Hotel with a camera, video camera or audio recorder and capture the events? The Reception is at 6:00pm with Dinner at 6:45pm.


    Posted by Robert Cox | Permalink | Comments (260) | | View blog reactions
    user-pic

    260 Comments

    I already have my ticket!

    Hey Bob--check out how the ACLU is billing Olbermann--as a COMMENTATOR. They get it--so why doesn't MSNBC correctly label him as what he is, instead of trying to pass him off as a news anchor and his program as a NEWS show?

    Perfect, an enemy defender (keefy) speaking at the aclu rally, also defenders of the enemy. mexican patty, get your donkey loaded up, you got a long walk!

    There is no other organization that has fucked up america more than the American Civil Liberties Union. excelsior Keith, you fatheaded fool

    Actually, the ACLU defends bigots like yourself, rk; so, you cannot really categorize them. As I've stated before, the neocons have been the largest supporters of terrorists in the world. That isn't hard to prove, son...

    This Is Outrageous!

    Humorist? Roy Blount, Jr isn't remotely funny!

    Shocker, Swift is an enemy defender as well. He switches from defending drug addicts and sexual abusers to the enemy! Perfect fit with the aclu.

    Here, here, here Bovine!!

    (This ought to make you shiet bricks!) LOL!!

    ---------------

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a4x6M3Dyr6jM&refer=us

    Navy Lawyer Charles Swift Battles Bush in Guantanamo Bay Case

    By Greg Stohr

    March 28 (Bloomberg) -- He was supposed to arrange a plea bargain. Instead, Navy Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift ended up fighting his commander in chief at the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Swift, the military lawyer for Guantanamo Bay inmate Salim Ahmed Hamdan, is asking the high court to block President George W. Bush's plan to use tribunals to try terrorism suspects. The justices will hear arguments from one of Swift's civilian colleagues today in Washington.

    The case, which raises questions about presidential wartime powers, might never have made it into court at all without Swift, 44, a 12-year veteran of the Navy's Judge Advocate General's Corps. Swift not only refused to enter a guilty plea, he filed a groundbreaking suit to challenge the tribunals, told a congressional panel that Hamdan had been abused and spent almost a month in Yemen developing his case.

    ``As a military officer, I deeply respect the president,'' Swift said in an interview at his northern Virginia office. ``But I also believe it's my duty as a military officer to point out when he is wrong.''

    It's an attitude that more than once put Swift at odds with higher-ranking officers. The conflicts began almost as soon as he was appointed to represent Hamdan in December 2003. The assignment came after the chief tribunal prosecutor requested a defense lawyer to help the Yemeni man plead guilty.

    After meeting Hamdan, Swift quickly concluded the man wanted to fight any charges against him. He then had Hamdan sign an authorization letting Swift take the unusual step of serving as a ``next friend'' for the purpose of a lawsuit on Hamdan's behalf.

    Coercion Alleged

    Swift last year told a Senate panel he viewed the prosecutor's request to help secure a plea as ``a clear attempt to coerce Mr. Hamdan into pleading guilty'' by threatening him with the loss of his legal representation.

    Air Force Brigadier General Thomas L. Hemingway, who supervises the prosecutor's office, testified at that same hearing that Swift wasn't under any instructions to secure a plea. He said he was ``unaware of any threats whatsoever'' along the lines alleged by Swift. Hemingway's office declined to comment for this story.

    Swift's charge into federal court was just the beginning. When the Defense Department refused to let Swift and his fellow defense attorneys hold a news conference to denounce the tribunal system, he decided he would simply present his case to reporters one-by-one, making himself the public face of the lawsuit.

    In 2004, working with Georgetown law professor Neal Katyal and the Seattle-based law firm Perkins Coie, Swift and other tribunal defense lawyers filed a friend-of-the-court brief in a Supreme Court detainee case -- even though they lacked explicit authorization to take that step.

    `Creativity and Persistence'

    Along the way, Swift and his colleagues filed a demand for the government to charge Hamdan and asked a Senate panel to investigate alleged prisoner abuses and the legality of the tribunal system.

    Defense Department officials ``probably assumed that people would do their job, but I don't think they expected the kind of creativity and persistence that the defense team has shown here,'' said Eugene R. Fidell, a military law expert at Feldesman Tucker Leifer Fidell in Washington.

    The sandy-haired, blue-eyed Swift is a Naval Academy graduate who served as a surface warfare officer for seven years before law school. He returned to the military only because a hiring freeze thwarted his goal of being a Justice Department attorney.

    Twelve years later, he calls himself one of the military legal system's biggest fans, saying it does a far better job than the civilian courts of ensuring high-quality representation for impoverished criminal defendants.

    ``I am incredibly proud of military justice as a whole,'' Swift said.

    Food and Chess

    Swift's fellow attorneys credit him with bridging a wide cultural gap to win his client's confidence. Before his first meeting with Hamdan in Guantanamo, Swift secured the services of a first-rate interpreter and took a crash course in Yemeni and Islamic culture.

    He won over Hamdan's confidence in part through their mutual interest in chess, using the game to explain the respective roles of the prosecution and defense. In later meetings, he brought Hamdan spicy food to enliven his diet. He spent almost a month in Yemen in 2004, getting to know Hamdan's family and interviewing potential witnesses.

    ``He has a basic, almost religious, respect for the individual,'' said Katyal, who will argue Hamdan's case at the high court today. ``At every turn, he just treats his client with such humanity.''

    Former Driver

    The government says Hamdan, a former driver for Osama bin Laden, conspired to wage war against the U.S. and attack civilians.

    Swift acknowledges that his advocacy for Hamdan has ruffled a few high-ranking feathers. He has been passed over for promotion once, meaning he will have to leave the service if, as he says he expects, he is passed over a second time later this year. He says he has no misgivings about the effect the case has had on his career.

    ``If you start thinking about your career over your duty,'' he said, ``it's time to get out.''

    To contact the reporter on this story: Greg Stohr in Washington at gstohr@bloomberg.net .

    ==========================

    (another excerpt)

    -------------------------

    Charles D. Swift is a Lieutenant Commander (LCDR) in the U.S. Navy, Judge Advocate General's Corps. He is assigned to the Department of Defense Office of Military Commissions and is most famous for having served as defense counsel for Salim Ahmed Hamdan.[1] Hamdan, a former driver for Osama bin Laden captured during the invasion of Afghanistan, was charged in July 2004 with conspiracy to commit terrorism.[2] As Hamdan's legal counsel, Swift together with Neal Katyal, appealed Hamdan's writ of habeas corpus petition to the U. S. Supreme Court. In Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 548 U.S. , 126 S.Ct. 2749 (2006), the justices ultimately held that the military commission to try Salim Hamdan was illegal and violated the Geneva Conventions as well as the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).[3][4] Ultimately, Swift was passed over for promotion and will have to retire under the military's "up or out" promotion system.[5][6] Swift stated he learned of being passed over two weeks after the Supreme Court decided in Hamdan's favor.[6]

    =========================

    Say, fascist Bovine, when should the water boarding of Navy Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift start?

    LOL!!

    Blindrat,

    What's with the son thing? Are you some wannabe hick sheriff with a matchstick in your teeth and mirrored sunglasses smashing out the tail lights of black folk who just don't look right?

    Shocker, Swift is an enemy defender as well. He switches from defending drug addicts and sexual abusers to the enemy! Perfect fit with the aclu. Well, wouldn't ya know it, Neal defends the enemy, as well. Keefy will fit right in!

    Awwwh! C'mon Bovine!!

    Just grow some balls and say it!!

    C'mon Bovine!!

    C'mon Bovine!!

    Before OWBIT beats you!

    Say it, Bovine!!

    - *traitor* Navy Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift!!

    YEAH!!! THE BOVINE HAD HER FIRST PERIOD!!

    Is anyone listening to the Adam Carolla Show on KLSX FreeFM?

    Messenger,

    Sorry if my diction isn't up to your standards, son. You have anything of substance to say? Implying that I am a bigot because of the way that I write is, as my mathematics teacher would say, bogus...

    traitor
    n
    Definition: person who is disloyal

    These guys are anything, but, loyal. Is defending our enemy loyal? I would think not.

    rk,

    You are just making a joke about the fact that our so-called president pulled out of one of Al Qaeda's strongholds (Afghanistan) and made an ally out of another (Pakistan). Funny, son! But, neocons are too stupid to understand that subtle humor...

    Hooweee! You tell them Blindrat. Squeal like a pig! Squeal like a pig! Squeal like a pig!

    blindrat,

    I am saying you are all style over substance. And your style is to degrade people with a term historically reserved for Klansmen, the bigoted, the uneducated, the culturally unaware and insecure.

    Take a look at this you closed minded simp, this is what you are doing:

    Sorry if my diction isn't up to your standards, nigger. You have anything of substance to say? Implying that I am a bigot because of the way that I write is, as my mathematics teacher would say, bogus...

    "traitor
    n
    definition: person who is disloyal."

    Why would it surprise anyone to see Jeff making up his own definitions of what words mean?....It has been his pattern that either he makes it up....or he quotes some high profile low life like Michael Savage!

    Messenger,

    When you finish misquoting me, child, and you want to discuss something of substance, let me know...

    Attacking my way of communicating lacks substance, son...

    blindrat,

    You disgusting piece of filth.

    Cornel West has branded the U.S. a "racist patriarchal" nation where "white supremacy" continues to define everyday life. "White America,' he writes, "has been historically weak-willed in ensuring racial justice and has continued to resist fully accepting the humanity of blacks." This has resulted, he claims, in the creation of many "degraded and oppressed people [who are] hungry for identity, meaning, and self-worth." Professor West attributes most of the black community's problems to "existential angst derive[d] from the lived experience of ontological wounds and emotional scars inflicted by white supremacist beliefs and images permeating U.S. society and culture." He explains that "the accumulated effect of the black wounds and scars suffered in a white-dominated society is a deep-seated anger, a boiling sense of rage, and a passionate pessimism regarding America's will to justice." "It goes without saying," he adds, "that a profound hatred of African people . . . sits at the center of American civilization."

    I am not misquoting anything. This board needs to see you for what you really are. A racist and a leech who wastes taxpayer dollars sitting on this board all work day long.

    From here out, all your comments are dismissed.

    Wow, that blew up quick but I have to agree with Messenger. Blindrat's reliance on dehumanizing others to achieve self worth is disturbing.

    blindrat,

    I've been lurking on this board for awhile from the links at firedoglake.

    As a feminist and a rabid anti-Bush activist I agree with a lot of what you say. But your use of language does give me pause.

    Most white American males don't understand how their upbringing has polluted them. I think this is a moment to learn.

    Impeach BushCo!

    Blindrat I agree you are out of line.

    Thank you everyone. The more we shine a light on cancers like him the better place this world will become.

    assrat, do all muslims use "son" and "child" in everyday communication or are you a different kind of muslim? There are no muslims in my neck of the woods, so I have never spoken with one. Just curious.

    Messenger,

    Thank God you have decided to stop your drivel, son. I appreciate it...

    I don't much care for Dr. West's style of writing, but I did make it through his book Race Matters and he had a lot of good things to say. Certainly, folks like you who gut the word "racist" by accusing everyone of it have done your part as well, child...

    Err Blindrat,

    What happened to you wasn't a good thing. I think a little humility would go a long way here.

    Keith is doing a fund raiser for the ACLU? The same ACLU that has defended Nazi's, terrorists, and child molesters? Wow. I can't wait to hear what he has to say at that dinner party.

    Keith owes the ACLU. It is their defense of child molesters that cleared the way for him to live with a child.

    It is funny that all of these pretend liberals call me a racist with royal king running around free...

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    assrat, do all muslims use "son" and "child" in everyday communication or are you a different kind of muslim? There are no muslims in my neck of the woods, so I have never spoken with one. Just curious.

    George,

    Funny, but when I bring up facts, child, you are nowhere to be found. Personal insults are not debate...

    Let me help you out here, son: "You are just making a joke about the fact that our so-called president pulled out of one of Al Qaeda's strongholds (Afghanistan) and made an ally out of another (Pakistan). Funny, son! But, neocons are too stupid to understand that subtle humor..."

    Obviously, this is an attack on the current president. Your job would be to refute what I stated, son. Anyone can pretend to know who is typing across the internet...

    I appreciate you neocons going to all the trouble of pretending to be liberal posters; however, liberals are smarter than you think. What makes you think they would gloss over slurs like "assrat" and "faggot" to complain about "son" and "child".

    Nice try, children. Kinda cute, actually...

    Nice goin', below average mexican patty. I knew it wouldn't be long until your trailer trash genes came out, again.

    blindrat, do all muslims use "son" and "child" in everyday communication or are you a different kind of muslim? There are no muslims in my neck of the woods, so I have never spoken with one. Just curious.

    Better? Will you answer, now?

    NASA administrator Michael Griffin is drawing the ire of his agency's preeminent climate scientists after apparently downplaying the need to combat global warming.

    In an interview broadcast this morning on National Public Radio's "Morning Edition" program, Griffin was asked by NPR's Steve Inskeep whether he is concerned about global warming.

    Editor's Picks
    Bradford Washburn's Glaciers
    "I have no doubt that a trend of global warming exists," Griffin told Inskeep. "I am not sure that it is fair to say that it is a problem we must wrestle with."

    "To assume that it is a problem is to assume that the state of Earth's climate today is the optimal climate, the best climate that we could have or ever have had and that we need to take steps to make sure that it doesn't change," Griffin said. "I guess I would ask which human beings — where and when — are to be accorded the privilege of deciding that this particular climate that we have right here today, right now is the best climate for all other human beings. I think that's a rather arrogant position for people to take."

    More consensus on Global warming at NASA. HA :) Gore better put his Hugo Chavez hat on and silence this guy. No desent from the flat earth theory.

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    George,

    Draft dodgers of note: George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Tom DeLay, Newt Gingrich, Ronald Reagan and John Wayne...

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    "Professor West attributes most of the black community's problems to "existential angst derive[d] from the lived experience of ontological wounds and emotional scars inflicted by white supremacist beliefs and images permeating U.S. society and culture." Son, Child, Boy.

    Blindrat = Racist

    Factor,

    It's too bad that Michael Griffin's expertice doesn't extend to environmental science, geology or meteorology, eh son?

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.


    Blindrat = Racist


    Blindrat = Racist

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    LOL!! Bovine!

    Say, Bovine, you're goin' to bitch again about how I got in Bob's face and piss him off with one post, while he ignores Laura?

    Better yet, let's say Bob "bans me permanently"
    (LOL)
    Who is next in you paranoid list of posters with *some 40 other names*?

    Let me help ya, Bovine!
    Ban blindrat, Mike, SLOB, LMAO, Nick, etc.!!
    Heck, ban Cecelia since she also dissed Bob, also ban every other dissenting opinion.
    Then you, Bob, Johnny $, Brandon, Puck, Factor, EZ$hits, and Laura can have the *same* circle jerk as the FReepers.

    BTY, the FReepers had a purge too.
    Any poster supporting Rudy was banned.

    There you are, BUSHWIPES, the hardcore, evangelico RW won't support the leading RINO, yet blame the DemonRats for your failure.

    ROFLMAO!!


    Factor,

    It's too bad that Michael Griffin's expertice doesn't extend to environmental science, geology or meteorology, eh son?

    Posted by: blindrat at May 31, 2007 1:37 PM

    I guess Al Gore and Leo Decrapio are?

    George,

    G. W. got out of the draft by skipping ahead in line and getting into the Guard...

    He was also grounded. Know why?

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    Blindrat = Racist

    Factor,

    If it were only Gore and DeCaprio that believed it, it wouldn't be an issue. Nice strawman, son...

    Blindrat,

    I think you may be done here. Its like someone has written a script that works off your incoming packet and generates one of two messages.

    Shouldn't you be working anyhow?

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    Blindrat = Racist

    Blindrat = Racist

    Yeah, I did change AAP's initial comment but for know other reason than boredom with AAP's repetitive comments. Try something original next time!

    -----------------------------
    I already have my ticket!
    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 31, 2007 11:06 AM
    ============================
    The first post on the thread was mine, like this:"moron paranoid BUSHWIPES"
    suffice to say, Bob didn't like it, edited it ...
    Thanks Bob!!
    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 31, 2007 1:17 PM

    Hey AAP, whats that thing about..."when you sleep with dogs you may get fleas"...ha!

    BTW: Bob's comment was funnier.

    Adios, amigos!

    Yawn, same ol' song......

    BUSHWIPE
    BUSHWIPE
    BUSHWIPE

    "Even Billdo admitted BUSHWIPE in Chief is DONE"

    Mmm...for being "done" President Bush just got the total amount of money he requested for a war the democrats described as....

    absurd
    lost
    evil
    immoral
    lining Haliburton's pockets
    lining Cheney's pockets
    killing innocents
    creating refugees
    creating terrorists
    based on lies
    Bush's war
    a waste of money
    a waste of lives
    vastly unpopular
    the reason the democrats now control congress

    Wow, what a lame duck Mister Buch has become....I guess the liberal ruling elite are lamer for not being able to take advantage (of the pathetic chied executive with the in-the-toilet approval ratings) and advance their agenda.

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "There were a few tense moments, however, including an encounter involving Joshua Sparling, 25, who was on crutches and who said he was a corporal with the 82nd Airborne Division and lost his right leg below the knee in Ramadi, Iraq. Mr. Sparling spoke at a smaller rally held earlier in the day at the United States Navy Memorial, and voiced his support for the administration?s policies in Iraq. Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back." NYT 1/28/07

    "I think the Vietnamese are better off in Vietnam," George McGovern - NEWSWEEK

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it." DEMOCRAT Bob Kerrey

    I agree, somebody say something original.

    In September, Bush applied to perform equivalent duty at a Ready Reserve Unit in Alabama. He was accepted. He was also told by the chief of the personnel branch, Capt. Kenneth K. Lott, to report to Lt. Col William Turnipseed, who would determine what scheduled drills he could attend. But there is no record of Bush attending the scheduled drills in Alabama during this period, and Turnipseed told U.S. News that he did not recall seeing Bush ever train with his unit. The same month he was accepted to Turnipseed's unit, Bush failed to take a physical and was grounded. On May 2, 1973, his superiors in Texas apparently could not locate him or identify records showing that he had trained; they were unable to evaluate Bush's Guard performance, his superiors wrote, because "he has not been observed."

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/roane040908.htm

    BLINDRAT THE RACIST WITH ANOTHER YAWNER.

    BE MORE FUNNY YOU RACIST PIECE OF SHIT!

    Blindrat...where everyday is yesterday.

    I guess it in part explains your fascination with the "Good ole' days."

    Try this. Get off the computer and think about why you hate black people so much you racist piece of shit.


    Try this. Get off the computer and think about why you hate black people so much you racist piece of shit.


    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 2:26 PM


    I can't find where Blindrat said anything racist.

    He continues to be miguided, illogical, and belligerent, but I can't find the post where he was racist.

    blindrat, are you ashamed to admit you are muslim? Seems kind of odd, to me.

    Blindrat,
    What's with the son thing? Are you some wannabe hick sheriff with a matchstick in your teeth and mirrored sunglasses smashing out the tail lights of black folk who just don't look right?
    Posted by: Messenger at May 31, 2007 11:29 AM

    Seems that Messenger made a racist assumption...I can't figure out how Blindrat became the racist?

    Cee,

    It started earlier today. Someone pointed out that Blindrat's verbage, (Child, Boy, Son) has a historical context and his usage is to purposely degrade and dehumanize his target. In short, its what every Klansman and Nazi has ever done.

    I was skeptical but then I reviewed some old posts and Blindrat really is using some disgusting tactics. What stands out when you go back is how easy he does it. Its more than second nature, its a cultural identifier.

    As a feminist and a rabid anti-Bush activist I agree with a lot of what you say. But your use of language does give me pause.

    Most white American males don't understand how their upbringing has polluted them. I think this is a moment to learn.

    Impeach BushCo!

    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 12:30 PM


    I guess I found it.

    hmmmm... evidently it's racist for blindrat (who may be a woman or a person of color) to call folks (who may be white males) "son" and "child", but it's NOT racist for this liberal feminist" to diss white males as a group...

    Yeah... only a "liberal feminist" could dream up that tripe.

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    Thanks Doc...but clergymen, teachers, politians, etc. also use this verbage and although can be condesending, assuming it is only racist-based seems a bit much. But since you went back and read blindrats' past comments, perhaps in this context I can see your point.

    I'm not white...

    Cee,

    It started earlier today. Someone pointed out that Blindrat's verbage, (Child, Boy, Son) has a historical context and his usage is to purposely degrade and dehumanize his target. In short, its what every Klansman and Nazi has ever done.

    I was skeptical but then I reviewed some old posts and Blindrat really is using some disgusting tactics. What stands out when you go back is how easy he does it. Its more than second nature, its a cultural identifier.

    Posted by: Doc at May 31, 2007 2:43 PM


    Frankly, Blindrat's use of "son" and "child" are more an attempt to put down the maturity and wisdom of his opponents and to elevate his own status than to "dehumaniize". He (if he is a "he") hasn't called people monkeys, or used derogatory names for women and gays.

    Blindrat is a putz, no doubt, but calling him racist is ridiculous. That's a really low-blow.

    Desperate.

    Apologize.

    I just bet Blindrat isn't "not white". It's another one of Keith's Krazies for sure. Probably a middle-aged white woman, overweight and frugly to boot.

    I guess I found it.
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 2:46 PM

    No you really didn't...but what else is new.

    Cee repeatedly copies and pastes five dated quotes he thinks makes some sort of point in his favor...

    And the hypocrite has the nerve to say:

    Yawn, same ol' song......

    Now that's funny!


    I just bet Blindrat isn't "not white". It's another one of Keith's Krazies for sure. Probably a middle-aged white woman, overweight and frugly to boot.

    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 2:58 PM


    Fat white sheriffs and white white women... yeah your repugnance for insults incorporating racially charged terms is just soooo obvious... :D

    If Blindrat is a white woman, then I suppose you'll have to focus on the white matriarchy instead of the white male partriarchy...

    Blindrat, I think you can move on here...this person is a crank.

    ...but clergymen, teachers, politians, etc. also use this verbage and although can be condesending, assuming it is only racist-based seems a bit much...
    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 2:50 PM

    I think the anon already said it, Cecelia...but it bares repeating from the likes of you...

    I guess I could start posting all the examples here...or Blindrat could just apologize

    This on just seeps of his disgust of "those not like us."


    obama,

    You obviously don't read well, son. I stated (and you couldn't challenge) that most of Al Qaeda isn't IN Iraq. Most of the violence is between factions of Islam. So...wanting to get our forces out of there would be the first step to putting them where they COULD effectively fight Al Qaeda...

    I don't mind explaining things once, child; but, if you can't understand simple English, perhaps you should attend an ESL class or two...

    Oh, and welcome to America!

    Posted by: blindrat at May 24, 2007 11:52 AM

    blindrat

    The Best Way To Have The Last Word - Apologize.

    Cecelia,

    I would, except I don't really remember the original topic. Oh well, got a trip to the dentist anyway. That should cheer me up!

    think the anon already said it, Cecelia...but it bares repeating from the likes of you...

    Posted by: CB at May 31, 2007 3:04 PM


    The likes of me is glad to repeat it. Blindrat hasn't been racist.

    When you point it out I think he might be...

    Blindrat, I think you can move on here...this person is a crank.
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 3:04 PM

    Blindrat is a putz...
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 2:56 PM

    Cecelia knows all...thank goodness she's on your side, putz (I mean blindrat)

    Cecelia,

    I would, except I don't really remember the original topic. Oh well, got a trip to the dentist anyway. That should cheer me up!

    Posted by: blindrat at May 31, 2007 3:07 PM


    Blindrat, goodness knows you're dead wrong in your political views, but don't let some poseur here get you down. :D

    Call me what you will, children...

    When you present facts, I will respect your opinions and perhaps comment on them...

    Now that you mention going back and looking at how blindrat behaves.

    I used to see this all the time in Charleston. People grow up a certain way and just are shocked that their behavior has consequences. "Me racist? No I have lots of black friends. And by the way what do you call a black in a tree..."

    BLINDRAT = RACIST

    Cecelia,

    I give the respect that I am given. Have I ever called you a name during discussions here?

    When Cee has something 'new' to add to the discussion, it will be the first time...

    Democrats are impotent for not standing up to Bush...

    Yada Yada Yada...

    How about an intellectually honest debate about the damage Bush has done?

    How about an intellectually honest debate about the common ground dems and repubs share and goals that can be achieved if they work together?

    How about defining 'victory' in Iraq in REAL terms, not just polito speak that makes you and your ilk feel good about being an American.

    How about NOT pretending you are smarter and less arrogant than everyone else while accusing your 'opponents' of hubris.

    How about NOT making up silly pet names for your opponents (like ChickenBlogger for instance) to illustrate exactly how little your ideas actually mean when held up to the light of day.

    How about NOT using quotes out of context to further your NeoCon agenda.

    I use the term Neocon to portray your deep support of Bush Inc. There is much about the Bush administration that is quite the opposite of conservative principles. Hence the term 'neo' con.

    There are plenty of ACTUAL conservatives that would describe your blind allegiance to the worst president in US history as nauseating.

    And I'm one of them...

    Blindrat,

    Let me guess, you are getting your teeth bleached.

    You racist piece of shit.

    "And the hypocrite has the nerve to say:

    Yawn, same ol' song......"

    ###
    Ironic, isn't it Einstein?.....The same old songs (poor arguments from the left) deserve nothing better the same repeated truths.

    And this is my post today, the 1,492nd day since the declaration of Mission Accomplished in Iraq.....

    I am cee, good night and good luck.

    (he, he, he)

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "There were a few tense moments, however, including an encounter involving Joshua Sparling, 25, who was on crutches and who said he was a corporal with the 82nd Airborne Division and lost his right leg below the knee in Ramadi, Iraq. Mr. Sparling spoke at a smaller rally held earlier in the day at the United States Navy Memorial, and voiced his support for the administration?s policies in Iraq. Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back." NYT 1/28/07

    "I think the Vietnamese are better off in Vietnam," George McGovern - NEWSWEEK

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it." DEMOCRAT Bob Kerrey

    Why so defensive. Why suddenly needing the validation of someone you dismiss so easily on every other topic?

    Struck a nerve you racist piece of shit?

    Cecelia,

    I give the respect that I am given. Have I ever called you a name during discussions here?

    Posted by: blindrat at May 31, 2007 3:17 PM


    I don't remember and it wouldn't bother me if you had, but I'll accept your implication here that you haven't.

    Blindrat,

    Let me guess, you are getting your teeth bleached.

    You racist piece of shit.

    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 3:18 PM


    Evidently, white teeth maybe too "white"... as well... :D

    Looks like I got in Blindrat's head. Hey what's with that burning cross in here?

    You racist piece of shit.

    used to see this all the time in Charleston. People grow up a certain way and just are shocked that their behavior has consequences. "Me racist? No I have lots of black friends. And by the way what do you call a black in a tree..."

    Posted by: Steve Y at May 31, 2007 3:15 PM


    Well, since Blindrat has no idea of the race of anyone Blindrat is addressing, isn't that a bit far-fetched here?

    Blindrat,

    I support you 100%

    Dear, dear chicken blogger.....fidelity to an ally is not a "neocon" idea....It is a RIGHT (morally sound) idea...My arguments for not running away from Iraq in a panic like the pathetic left wanted since 2003 is based solely on that ideal....If the reality of the American political environment precludes keeping with the ideal then so be it....but that does not make it right (just like it was not right that America abandoned freedom loving South Vietnamese) and I do not have to go along with those so willing to abandon those in Iraq who want the same.

    So your assumptions about "conservative" simply show your ignorance, keep up the good work.....

    And this is my post today, the 1,492nd day since the declaration of Mission Accomplished in Iraq.....

    I am cee, good night and good luck.

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "There were a few tense moments, however, including an encounter involving Joshua Sparling, 25, who was on crutches and who said he was a corporal with the 82nd Airborne Division and lost his right leg below the knee in Ramadi, Iraq. Mr. Sparling spoke at a smaller rally held earlier in the day at the United States Navy Memorial, and voiced his support for the administration?s policies in Iraq. Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back." NYT 1/28/07

    "I think the Vietnamese are better off in Vietnam," George McGovern - NEWSWEEK

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it." DEMOCRAT Bob Kerrey

    Not really, he's projecting. His adversary is always imagined as what he hates most. Then his language keys off that and you get: son, boy, child, welcome to american, take an ESL class.

    I don't see blindrat making racist comments, either. Condescending, moronic comments, yes. But not racist. He speaks down to others in order to elevate himself. To compensate for his lower level of thinking, he tries to put himself on a higher intellectual plane. Although he fails to do so.

    Actually, I do see the racism in the take an ESL class.

    Apologize.

    An apology makes it all go away.

    Or you at the dentist still?

    Apologize.

    An apology makes it all go away.

    Or you at the dentist still?

    Posted by: BLINDRAT = RACIST at May 31, 2007 3:42 PM


    Please.... racial sensitivity is the farthest objective from this anonyloon's mind...

    Actually, I do see the racism in the take an ESL class.

    Posted by: Keith N. at May 31, 2007 3:39 PM


    What? You think Blindrat thinks he's dealing with a bunch of "neocon" non-white immigrants here.... or could it be the English As Second Langugage class thing is just him making a slam about someone's ability to read and interpret his remarks corrently.

    Actually, I do see the racism in the take an ESL class.

    Posted by: Keith N. at May 31, 2007 3:39 PM

    Woohoo! My first name hijack. Notice the period? I don't use the period.

    Hijacked. What's your last name? Mine in Norvell.

    BLINDRAT = RACIST

    Two things are for sure. Blindrat is a muslim and he/she's ashamed to admit it. Very odd, to me. I'm Catholic. See how easy it is, blindrat?

    Blindrat is a shape shifter. If they get nailed on something they pretend they're something else. What difference does it make what Blindrat says? We know they are a liar like all of Olbermann's fans.

    Presbytarian here.

    Blindrat, just post your real identity. Then when you respond to comments we can judge if you become more measured and guarded.

    Simple really. You've proven you have racist and hateful feelings to others. Prove you don't.

    Name/address/government agency you work for/personal email address/phone number/schools attended/children/wives. Anything you want.

    You know, like you say - facts

    Fact is you are a racist.

    Cecelia...

    What with all the ...

    ...?

    Looks like a...what's it call in poker...a tell...?

    Anonyloons accusing others of shapeshifting is good irony but a "liberal feminist" coming on and calling a liberal Olbyloon a racist over his using some condescending racial "code" lingo of "white males" when debating a bunch of conservative and libertarians... is priceless...

    For everything else as well, there's Olbermann Watch... :D

    Looks like a...what's it call in poker...a tell...?

    Posted by: Cecelia... at May 31, 2007 4:39 PM


    Do tell...

    Cecelia/Blindrat

    Do you pee standing up?

    royalking are you watching?

    Cecelia/Blindrat

    Do you pee standing up?

    royalking are you watching?

    Posted by: So... at May 31, 2007 4:45 PM


    Yes, I'm watching... :D

    "My arguments for not running away from Iraq in a panic like the pathetic left wanted since 2003 is based solely on that ideal"

    Well, we sure haven't seen you running TOWARD Iraq, cee, you pathetic chickenhawk. Serve, and experience the reality of your convictions.

    Blindrat,et.al. Two words:Geolocation software

    Now that's a tell...

    "Well, we sure haven't seen you running TOWARD Iraq, cee, you pathetic chickenhawk. Serve, and experience the reality of your convictions."

    ###
    Talk about ol' songs....the old chicken hawk argument from Sir Loin of Milquetoast that is about as old a AAP's BUSHWIPE......

    Well, again Loin.....chain yourself to that air transport to stop those flights to Iraq, get yourself arrest for rushing Fort Dix with your PEACE symbol flag or even a sit-in at Speaker Pelosi's and I'll volunteer....

    "All we are saying, is give peace a chance....."

    And this is my post today, the 1,492nd day since the declaration of Mission Accomplished in Iraq.....

    I am cee, good night and good luck.

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "There were a few tense moments, however, including an encounter involving Joshua Sparling, 25, who was on crutches and who said he was a corporal with the 82nd Airborne Division and lost his right leg below the knee in Ramadi, Iraq. Mr. Sparling spoke at a smaller rally held earlier in the day at the United States Navy Memorial, and voiced his support for the administration?s policies in Iraq. Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back." NYT 1/28/07

    "I think the Vietnamese are better off in Vietnam," George McGovern - NEWSWEEK

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it." DEMOCRAT Bob Kerrey

    Blindrat,et.al. Two words:Geolocation software

    Now that's a tell...

    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 4:50 PM

    While you're at it, pinpoint all the anonyloons. I have a theory you all work in New Jersey.

    Wow...all this race discussion on an ACLU thread on OlbermanWatch, thats priceless!

    Cee,

    I think AAP's BU$HWIPE$ thing is sort of his trademark.

    SLOB,
    That chickenhawk argument is always weak. I assume you support your local police? So you must be a policeman. If not, do we surmise that you support crime? Policehawk. Or if you support your fire department, you must be a fireman? You firehawk, you. Or etc. etc.
    Also, since you have never been President, you must be unable to comment on his decisions, since you have never been in the position to make said decisions. Unless you are planning on running for President. Then you are free to make your comments. Otherwise you are a presidenthawk.

    Now, i don't agree with those premises. I am just showing you how weak the chickenhawk "argument" really is.

    Wow...all this race discussion on an ACLU thread on OlbermanWatch, thats priceless!


    Posted by: CB at May 31, 2007 4:58 PM


    "Race discussion"? Here I would have thought it was simply some ginned-up charge by one of Blindrat's opponents in order to smear him for caling him/her "child" or "son".

    You really are stupid. George Bush served in what ist still considered the worlds most dangerous profession. Cheney got deferments. Not sure about Gingrich, Delay or Reagan. John Wayne was not physically able to serve because of his knees. So what is your point."

    Cheney had FIVE deferments, excused this later by claiming that he "had other priorities". Is that suposed to be up to him?;

    Bush turned tail and skipped out on "the world's most dangerous profession" (although I think fighter pilots in Nam would have disputed this classification). Standing rewards of $10,000 and now $50,000 go unclaimed, begging for any witnesses of Bush at his post.;

    big, strapping Reagan made propaganda films for the government in California;

    the Duke made propaganda films for Hollywood. Biographer Gary Wills claims Wayne never responded to his letters from the selective service during WWII;

    DeLay got a deferrment and made this preposterous excuse more recently: "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like myself." Those greedy minorities!After graduating from the University of Houston in 1970, Delay owned and operated a pest control business.

    Gingrich apparently wasn't drafted, but didn't serve either.

    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)

    Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.

    Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.

    National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.


    House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.

    House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.

    House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.

    House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.

    National Republican Congressional
    Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.


    Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.

    Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.

    Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so in 2000? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.


    Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.

    Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.

    Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."

    Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve

    Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)

    Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)

    George Felix Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve. (1)


    Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.

    GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?

    VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service")

    Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

    Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

    Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

    Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)

    Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.

    "B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.

    Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments

    Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php

    Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm

    Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.

    Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986

    Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...")

    Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.

    Senator Jim Webb (D-VA) -- rifle platoon and company commander with the Fifth Marine Regiment in the An Hoa Basin west of Danang; was awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts. (1)

    Representative Tim Walz, D-MN - Twenty-four years of service in the Army National Guard, retiring in 2005.

    Representative Joe Sestak, D-PA - 31 years of service in the Navy, rising to the rank of Vice Admiral.

    Representative Chris Carney, D-PA - Lieutenant Commander in the United States Naval Reserve, Carney served multiple tours overseas and was activated for Operation Enduring Freedom, Noble Eagle, and Southern Watch.

    Representative Patrick Murphy, D-PA - extensive career in the U.S. Army from 1993-2004; earned Bronze Star and Presidential Unit Citation.

    Representative Phil Hare, D-IL - Served in the United States Army Reserve for six years.


    Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990. (1)

    Former House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)

    Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)

    Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)

    Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon.

    Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)

    Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)

    Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)

    Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)

    Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)

    Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)

    Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)

    Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)

    Former Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)


    Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)

    Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)

    Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)

    Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)

    Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)

    Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57

    Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - 38-year career of public service in the Army, culminating as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.


    Chuck Robb, US Senator from Virginia, served in Vietnam

    Howell Heflin... Democrat... Silver Star

    George McGovern, famous liberal, awarded Silver Star & DFC, dozens of missions during WWII.

    Former President Bill Clinton - avoided the draft through student deferments; in the autumn of 1969, Clinton entered the draft but received a high number (311) and was never called to serve. (CNN article.) "...it was his doubts about the morality of the war and the Selective Service system that led him to abandon the ROTC idea and to subject himself to a draft lottery. Only the luck of the draw - a high lottery number - kept him out. " (Jeff Greenfield, ABC News, quoting Gov. Clinton.)

    Former President Jimmy Carter, most recent recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, seven years in the Navy. "Except for his fellow service-academy graduate Dwight Eisenhower, no President of the twentieth century spent more years in uniform than Carter." (New Yorker Magazine)

    Former Presidential Nominee Mike Dukakis - United States Army, 1955-'57 (1)

    Former Senator/Vice Presidential nominee Lloyd Bentsen - B-24 pilot in WWII 1942-'45, Squadron Commander; earned Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal with three Oak Leaf Clusters. (1)

    Former Vice President Walter Mondale, U.S. Army 1951-1953

    Former Senator John Glenn, D-OH (1974-1999) - Served in WWII and Korea; extensive military commendations include the Distinguished Flying Cross on six occasions, and the Air Medal with 18 Clusters.

    Congressman Tom Lantos, D-CA - Did not serve in the US military; did serve in the Hungarian anti-Nazi underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg, is the only Holocaust survivor to serve in Congress.

    Sir Loin,

    Since Commander in Chief is an inherent role of the presidency and any President could be in the position where he/she must call our sons and daughters to war, does this mean you think military service should be a requirement for the job?

    Now, i don't agree with those premises. I am just showing you how weak the chickenhawk "argument" really is.

    Posted by: Keith N at May 31, 2007 5:00 PM

    Oh, I thought you were arguing against the concept of democracy; my error.

    I am not suggesting that you have to be in the military in order to speak on issues of war; but when a free nation goes to war, a citizen who supports that war - sees it as being worth the shedding of American and foreign blood - should be willing to give that which he expects of others, to the degree to which he is able.

    Looking at the lists of Republican and Demoratic politicians, I think we can see which party attracts those who share my views on honor and moral obligation.

    When young college student Clinton wrote Sen. Fulbright asking for help in getting a draft deferral, I wonder if Clinton realized, that when he wrote that he that he wanted things kept quiet because he did not want to jeopardize his viability as a future political candidate, that the people who might criticise him were those like Sir Loin... :D

    Sir Loin,

    Since Commander in Chief is an inherent role of the presidency and any President could be in the position where he/she must call our sons and daughters to war, does this mean you think military service should be a requirement for the job?

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 5:32 PM


    Not at all, but I think it represents rank physical cowardice and moral equivocation to explicitly and actively support a war but then fail to step up and serve in it to the degree that one is able. How can you argue with that?

    cee has argued with that, but he's a pussy.

    "Race discussion"? Here I would have thought it was simply some ginned-up charge by one of Blindrat's opponents in order to smear him for caling him/her "child" or "son".
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 5:06 PM

    Do you ever give it a rest? You really need to get out and get a life.

    When young college student Clinton wrote Sen. Fulbright asking for help in getting a draft deferral, I wonder if Clinton realized, that when he wrote that he that he wanted things kept quiet because he did not want to jeopardize his viability as a future political candidate, that the people who might criticise him were those like Sir Loin... :D

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 5:41 PM

    In light of my recent cmments; Clinton was consistent. He was clear about his opposition to the war. Bush, on the other hand, said "I wasn't going to run off to Canada or shoot my ear out with a shotgun, so I decided to better myself by learning to fly airplanes." Not a word about opposing the war, just protecting Georgie while the family raked in fortunes. Later he bragged "i've been to war".

    So I wonder how you have so much time to be on this board since, following your logic, you are against this war and your time should be being spent actively protesting this war and being a human shield over in Iraq.

    Are you a policeman? Don't you feel that you should strap on the uniform and gun belt as well? Or do you think that it's ok to ask those brave men and women in law enforcement to do things that you don't expect of yourself?

    It's a weak argument to make that you can't support something without being in that position yourself. Do you have opinions on our education system? Well, using your reasoning, you can't. Unless you are a teacher. Etc. etc.

    Oh, I thought you were arguing against the concept of democracy; my error.

    I am not suggesting that you have to be in the military in order to speak on issues of war; but when a free nation goes to war, a citizen who supports that war - sees it as being worth the shedding of American and foreign blood - should be willing to give that which he expects of others, to the degree to which he is able.

    Looking at the lists of Republican and Demoratic politicians, I think we can see which party attracts those who share my views on honor and moral obligation.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 5:37 PM


    It just so happens, Sir Loin, that the Pentagon along with congress has set up ways that one can receive a draft deferment, based upon those standards, democratically enacted.... that they believe constitute "the degree to which one is able"...

    In a volunteer army, where people may or may not choose to support their country in this particular way, the govt has decided for now that this is the best way to run things.

    Now, I for one, don't think it is at all in your interest to champion the notion that it is chickenhawk and less than patriotic to agree with the war policy of a president unless you enlist in the war too.

    I think there was a time when this was indeed the standard and quaint notions of consciencous objectors, or families with particular needs, etc were about as openmindedly and warmly received as people who didn't back their President of the United States in a war.... There was only one way to serve and only one thing was patriotic PERIOD.

    Frankly, my friend, that isn't a time or a mentality that YOU of all people should be championing...

    Now, i don't agree with those premises. I am just showing you how weak the chickenhawk "argument" really is.

    Posted by: Keith N at May 31, 2007 5:00 PM

    ....and its not an"argument"; its a stinging commentary on the character of war-mongering hypocrits who value the vicarious glory of war, and see it as a default measure for dealing with problems, but value their own hides over those of their compatriots.

    I am making no policy or procedural recommendations based on the "chickenhawk" concept, I'm just looking at the explicit public record and making character judgments. Got a problem with that?

    In light of my recent cmments; Clinton was consistent. He was clear about his opposition to the war. Bush, on the other hand, said "I wasn't going to run off to Canada or shoot my ear out with a shotgun, so I decided to better myself by learning to fly airplanes." Not a word about opposing the war, just protecting Georgie while the family raked in fortunes. Later he bragged "i've been to war".

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 5:47 PM

    Well, that's a convenient argument for you, Sir Loin. Political connections are alright to use in order to get you out of what others must do, if you don't happen to agree with the war to start with....

    It just so happens, Sir Loin, that the Pentagon along with congress has set up ways that one can receive a draft deferment, based upon those standards, democratically enacted.... that they believe constitute "the degree to which one is able"...


    Those standards clearly include a whole raft of unjust class-based deferrments, which many of the Demoratic senator's sons on the list I provided above could have availed themselves of, but enlisted instead. Contrast that with the decisions of Cheney, DeLay, Boehner, Gingrich, etc.


    Well, that's a convenient argument for you, Sir Loin. Political connections are alright to use in order to get you out of what others must do, if you don't happen to agree with the war to start with....


    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 5:57 PM

    Don't put words in my mouth. I was merely pointing out the differences between Clinton and Bush in this regard.

    Personally, I'm in favor of universal mandatory service for everybody - no deferments whatsoever; but service tailored to abilities and moral positions. Charley Rangel, who fought in Korea, is the only politician I've heard say anything similar to this.

    Those standards clearly include a whole raft of unjust class-based deferrments, which many of the Demoratic senator's sons on the list I provided above could have availed themselves of, but enlisted instead. Contrast that with the decisions of Cheney, DeLay, Boehner, Gingrich, etc.


    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 5:59 PM

    You've just argued that in Clinton's case it was fine to go above and beyond the criteria for deferrment into enlisting the help of political connections....because Clinton didn't agree with the war.

    NOW you're deploring "democratically" enacted policies because they are "class based"?


    Personally, I'm in favor of universal mandatory service for everybody - no deferments whatsoever; but service tailored to abilities and moral positions. Charley Rangel, who fought in Korea, is the only politician I've heard say anything similar to this.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:05 PM


    Well, it's great to hear this. I especially like the notion of service of tailored to the particular needs and talents of the individual.... wonder if that might be businessman or law student....father raising young children....

    But it's interesting to hear that Sir Loin of Beef is for mandatory conscription for all into the U.S. military!

    Personally, I'm in favor of universal mandatory service for everybody - no deferments whatsoever; but service tailored to abilities and moral positions. Charley Rangel, who fought in Korea, is the only politician I've heard say anything similar to this.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:05 PM


    BTW-- since this is your moral position, you going to enlisting or re-enlisting, along with all of your sons and daughters you might have?

    NOW you're deploring "democratically" enacted policies because they are "class based"?


    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 6:07 PM


    My God, woman, you just spout out anything that you can come up with. Yes - American legilsators of whatever party, came up with and voted in a set of rules that benefit their class - college deferrments? Are you pretending these did not disproportionately benefit the higher classes?

    I've responded to a number of your questions, now quit equivocating and please answer my question from a number of posts above:

    "... but I think it represents rank physical cowardice and moral equivocation to explicitly and actively support a war but then fail to step up and serve in it to the degree that one is able. How can you argue with that?"

    BTW-- since this is your moral position, you going to enlisting or re-enlisting, along with all of your sons and daughters you might have?

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 6:13 PM

    Yes - if they would let me (I'm 45). This is a pledge I've made to my senators and congressmen that I've written to on this topic.

    My God, woman, you just spout out anything that you can come up with. Yes - American legilsators of whatever party, came up with and voted in a set of rules that benefit their class - college deferrments? Are you pretending these did not disproportionately benefit the higher classes?

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:15 PM

    It's a valid question. How can you excuse what that Clinton used politcal connections to get a deferrment (in way that even middleclass white guys couldn't management with Clinton's draft number status) and yet decry democratically enacted deferrments that don't involve enlisting the aid of a senator.... as being "class based".

    It's okay for Clinton NOT to have to serve because he didn't like the war... but other men, without Clinton's connections, SHOULD serve....

    You make a lot of sense... NOT...

    Well, it's great to hear this. I especially like the notion of service of tailored to the particular needs and talents of the individual.... wonder if that might be businessman or law student....father raising young children....

    I'm talking about a standard life-phase here, Cecelia. Right out of high school into two years of National Service. Business can wait. Real-world sex education can reduce the father/motherhood issue. College can wait - although the service could clearly be structured to provide educational experience while serving.

    "But it's interesting to hear that Sir Loin of Beef is for mandatory conscription for all into the U.S. military!"

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 6:11 PM

    What's so strange? I'm a Progressive - we're the Responsiblity People. Democracy is about shared decisions and shared responsiblity.

    Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

    Yes - if they would let me (I'm 45). This is a pledge I've made to my senators and congressmen that I've written to on this topic.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:18 PM

    Got kids, step-kids, a wife, a girlfriend, a boyfriend, younger brothers, and sisters to try and strongarm into the only means of service that you feels matters? Are do they have to agree with any particular war we are in engaged in fighting first?

    Average Clinton C**k Sucker

    I'm heading out but I'm sure everybody wants to know.

    Is you're mom driving you to the A.C.L.U. thang?

    Are you going to make you're mom wait out in the parking lot because you're too cheap to buy her a ticket or are you going to try to service as many A.C.L.U. lawyers as you can because can't afford them on a 'White Castle' salary and hope they will take one of your dopey cases pro-bono.

    What's up with this olbsession with cows?

    Should I tell the farmer down the street to keep an eye on his bovines?

    Or do you have a thang for your shift manager at 'White Castle'.

    Does she know about you're other job out in the parking lot in back of the nudie booth?

    Damm what a freak!

    Oh before you go make sure you take the Bill Clinton style dildo out of your ass, I mean the lawyers will be making enough fun of what you say. Don't let them talk about the way you walk too!

    What's so strange? I'm a Progressive - we're the Responsiblity People. Democracy is about shared decisions and shared responsiblity.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:26 PM


    Well... I feel like society shouldn't force everyone to pray in school or join the military (unless under dire conditions).

    It's a valid question. How can you excuse what that Clinton used politcal connections to get a deferrment (in way that even middleclass white guys couldn't management with Clinton's draft number status) and yet decry democratically enacted deferrments that don't involve enlisting the aid of a senator.... as being "class based".

    It's okay for Clinton NOT to have to serve because he didn't like the war... but other men, without Clinton's connections, SHOULD serve....

    You make a lot of sense... NOT...

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 6:23 PM

    Once again, I was pointing out the distinction between Bush and CLinton - Clinton has been honest about his reasons for skipping the war/Bush claimed he DID go to war when he didn't!

    But your point about the strings pulled by Clinton are valid. Clinton should have refused to go; but should have faced the legal consequences. If everybody who ran to Canada or elsewhere had done so, the war would have ended much sooner. That is the real power of civil disobedience.

    I don't particularly care for Clinton, his "centrist" (i.e. moderate right-wing) policies, or his overblown "sincerity" skills, but when comparing him to Bush on any basis, it may look to a casual observer like I want to have his baby.

    Got kids, step-kids, a wife, a girlfriend, a boyfriend, younger brothers, and sisters to try and strongarm into the only means of service that you feels matters? Are do they have to agree with any particular war we are in engaged in fighting first?

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 6:30 PM


    AHA, Cecelia! You are getting close. Perhaps if all of these people had to face the consequences of your decisions, as opposed to the abused "volunteer" system we have now, you would think things through a little more carefully. That's the whole point.

    I don't particularly care for Clinton, his "centrist" (i.e. moderate right-wing) policies, or his overblown "sincerity" skills, but when comparing him to Bush on any basis, it may look to a casual observer like I want to have his baby.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:35 PM


    No, actually, you've been engaged in diminishing guard service for Bush and Nam service for Powell and McCains service with whatever claim you can find on Daily Kos, while ignoring the fact that Clinton denied doing anything to get a draft deferrment when he was campaigning.

    Mind posting the link to the list you sent of service for various pols that you posted.

    ....remember, Cecelia, my whole "chickenhawk" hang-up is purely a matter of my opinion of the moral character of people - as I have stated this word is merely an empiically -supported slur - not an integral part of any policy recomendation.

    Child porn hearing set for former ACLU exec

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55883

    A former youth league sports coach and executive of the American Civil Liberties Union, who has argued against any limits on Internet access in public libraries, is facing a hearing � and the possibility of prison � for having hard-core child pornography.

    Charles Rust-Tierney, 51, as WND reported earlier, was arrested in February and was indicted earlier this month on allegations of having what a U.S. magistrate described as "the most perverted and nauseating and sickening type of child pornography" she ever had seen.

    Rust-Tierney, who was president of the Virginia chapter of the ACLU until 2005 and served on the group's board until the day he was arrested, now is scheduled to appear in a court hearing on June 1 at which local reports say he is expected to plead guilty to various charges.

    Authorities have alleged he used his own credit card and his own e-mail address to access and purchase an estimated $1,000 in graphic and violent child pornography during 2005 and 2006, according to Virginia's North Country Gazette.

    AHA, Cecelia! You are getting close. Perhaps if all of these people had to face the consequences of your decisions, as opposed to the abused "volunteer" system we have now, you would think things through a little more carefully. That's the whole point.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:41 PM


    I'm not the one arguing that there's only one to serve your country during time of war or in peace.

    Perhaps if you were younger than 45, you'd agree. :D

    No, actually, you've been engaged in diminishing guard service for Bush and Nam service for Powell and McCains service with whatever claim you can find on Daily Kos, while ignoring the fact that Clinton denied doing anything to get a draft deferrment when he was campaigning.

    Mind posting the link to the list you sent of service for various pols that you posted.

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 6:43 PM


    Alright, you lying bitch, I'm starting to remember why you disgust me - Where did I "diminish Nam service for Powell and McCain"? Not once - quite the contrary, if you look to my posts above.

    Any port in a storm, though, for lying, irresponsible Republican hacks.

    ...diminishing Bush's Guard service? He did that first when he skipped out

    ...diminishing Bush's Guard service? He did that first when he skipped out

    ...diminishing Bush's Guard service? He did that first when he skipped out

    www.awolbush.com

    Beef makes an excellent point, more muted than I would prefer, so it bears repeating. If we had compulsory national service in this nation, as I think we should, we would not be in Iraq. Friends and family members of people being drafted to go to Iraq would be on the streets and in the halls of Congress and in Bush's face constantly. It is very, very easy for the Cees, Cecelias and Jeffs to blow forth belicose bile ad nauseum, but an honest stake in the abomination and atrocity we have been handed calms the winds of the blowhards and lights the fires of those taking the risk and responsibility. WARS OF CHOICE ARE ONLY POSSIBLE WHEN THERE IS NO COMPULSORY NATIONAL SERVICE.

    ....remember, Cecelia, my whole "chickenhawk" hang-up is purely a matter of my opinion of the moral character of people - as I have stated this word is merely an empiically -supported slur - not an integral part of any policy recomendation.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:45 PM


    Actually, "chickenhawk" is just an illogical debate tactic.

    I'd have to take your word for it that your policy recommendation wasn't any more than an attempt to make it more logical.

    The ACLU is awesome. They defend my right to molest little boys. Go NAMBLA. Its just love you don't understand.

    Ohio is ground-central for the Olbyloons, not New Jersey.

    Actually, "chickenhawk" is just an illogical debate tactic.

    I'd have to take your word for it that your policy recommendation wasn't any more than an attempt to make it more logical.

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 6:53 PM


    Spin, spin, spin - any port in a storm. Take my posts in whatever way that makes you feel clever while you dump one position in favor of one you have just made up that is not yet crumbling. I feel foolish for having though we were actually having a conversation.

    It is very, very easy for the Cees, Cecelias and Jeffs to blow forth belicose bile ad nauseum, but an honest stake in the abomination and atrocity we have been handed calms the winds of the blowhards and lights the fires of those taking the risk and responsibility. WARS OF CHOICE ARE ONLY POSSIBLE WHEN THERE IS NO COMPULSORY NATIONAL SERVICE.

    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 6:52 PM


    So there's no possibility that war supporters .... of any age....or station... have family or friends who are voluntarily members of U.S military?

    You may believe that pols and your fellow citizens are less cautious about going into or backing a war if they aren't personally fighting in it, but I think you and Sir Loin should speak for youself and your own mindset, not for everyone else's.

    Spin, spin, spin - any port in a storm. Take my posts in whatever way that makes you feel clever while you dump one position in favor of one you have just made up that is not yet crumbling. I feel foolish for having though we were actually having a conversation.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:58 PM


    You should feel foolish for making a case for deferrments in Clintons case and then calling them class-based when they depend upon pre-set rules democratically enacted.

    You should feel foolish for selectively calling people "chickenhawk" based upon on your non-support of a war, when you truly feel that every man, woman, and child should be forced to serve.

    I would like the link please.

    Where did I "diminish Nam service for Powell and McCain"? Not once - quite the contrary, if you look to my posts above.

    Any port in a storm, though, for lying, irresponsible Republican hacks.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:48 PM

    I saw it. It was a week or so ago.

    I would like the link please.

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 31, 2007 7:06 PM

    Open your drowning-rat eyes and find it then, dumbass - its up above.

    Blindrat,et.al. Two words:Geolocation software

    Now that's a tell...

    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 4:50 PM

    Can you elaborate on this?

    Alright, you lying bitch, I'm starting to remember why you disgust me - Where did I "diminish Nam service for Powell and McCain"? Not once - quite the contrary, if you look to my posts above.

    Any port in a storm, though, for lying, irresponsible Republican hacks.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at May 31, 2007 6:48 PM


    With Powell you diminished what is service by a Republican by Mai Lai. The way you diminished McCain's service was to make it secondary to putting all Republicans as part and parcel of every group that makes nasty campaign calls.

    With Bush you make unproven allegations.

    I had I mentioned the Swiftboaters you'd have gone into spasms, no doubt.

    Well, during my commute home Sir Loin of Milquetoast presented his empirically based character judgement protocol.....I am (not)impressed. Nice pick-apart Cecelia.

    Loin, once again ignores the simple contradiction of being against the war while being "ok" that people, (really only people who have a different ideology), go off to fight it anyway....moral equivication is such a valuable component of the left...

    The modern day Progressive's position....I am against the war.....but if you support the war effort it is ok that you go and prosecute the war....How is that a valid position?

    A question Loin if I do go off and volunteer and shoot a Sunni insurgent in the head.....Is it still "wrong" in your paradigm?

    If it is wrong....Why did you encourage me and the other war supporters, to go and do something that was morally wrong?

    I would think that being such a humanist you would not want me to go and shoot insurgent Sunnis is the head....IF you were morally consistent.

    Like I have observed before, your objection to the war seems to be pretty superficial, Sir Loin of Milquetoast....Your chicken hawk argument says more about your thin moral foundation than it says about my courage or strength of conviction for the Iraq war.

    "All we are saying, is give peace a chance....."

    And this is my post today, the 1,492nd day since the declaration of Mission Accomplished in Iraq.....

    I am cee, good night and good luck.

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "There were a few tense moments, however, including an encounter involving Joshua Sparling, 25, who was on crutches and who said he was a corporal with the 82nd Airborne Division and lost his right leg below the knee in Ramadi, Iraq. Mr. Sparling spoke at a smaller rally held earlier in the day at the United States Navy Memorial, and voiced his support for the administration?s policies in Iraq. Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back." NYT 1/28/07

    "I think the Vietnamese are better off in Vietnam," George McGovern - NEWSWEEK

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it." DEMOCRAT Bob Kerrey

    Cyberspace, unlike Space, is finite, and you sure do use and abuse it, Cee. Can't you just write "ditto" or something and spare all of those pointless quotes you paste in almost all your posts? To be sure you are not as big an idiot as Jeff, but you do desensitize us all. Perhaps, if I ever suffer from premature ejaculation I'll think of your quotes instead of replaying the 1963 World Series in my mind.

    Regarding the ends of my posts....

    Just as long as you know what the quotes say and I serve an important practical purpose with regards to your sexual problem....I'm happy to help....

    And remember....I post a lot less than most of the regulars here...and read the posts without comment.

    .....today, the 1,492nd day since the declaration of Mission Accomplished in Iraq.....

    I am cee, good night and good luck.

    (spared)

    "Could he be any more of a pompous, arrogant jerk !"

    (As Keith Olbermann as my role model).....I'll try harder just for you, Why.....

    today, the 1,492nd day since the declaration of Mission Accomplished in Iraq.....

    I am cee, good night and good luck

    Pats, READ IT AND WEEP:

    "On 10 May 2007 the Charges against Hamdan have been formally referred to a military commission. Hamdan will be arraigned within 30 days."

    He who laughs last laughs best.

    Need I mention that I am laughing?

    Grammie

    Chicken Blogger, what a coincidence!

    I often ponder and wonder how you young uns survive long enough to begin making rational decisions. The world is a very hard and unforgiving place most of the time.

    If you can't defend yourself exactly who do you expect to do it for you?

    Grammie

    mexican prick/nobody cares, how was the "aclu defend the enemy love fest" w/keefy? You must have the worlds fastest donkey to get to Boston and back to Tijuana in less than 6 hours!

    SLOB,

    You forgot one thing about Bill Clinton. He was drafted. Yes, he did receive the dreaded "Greetings" letter. Upon receiving his draft notice he wrote a letter to the draft board asking them to "undraft" him, because he was planning to join the ROTC the next school year. So the draft board undrafted him, and Bubba did not join the ROTC the following year, like he said he would. What a coincidence, SLOB, that you would leave out this important fact about a Democrat. You aren't partisan, are you?

    mexican prick ....

    ... worlds fastest donkey ... Tijuana ,,,,

    -----

    Looks like I just debunked Jeff's "I am not a racist" crap.

    HHAHA! Hook, bait, line and sinker! I was baiting you! Hahhhahahahah! Remember that?

    How many nights a week does KO get to take off?

    Never mind...just looked at the Red Sox schedule. Tomorrow night starts a 3 game series at home against the mighty Yankees...guess KO was just making sure he got into town early. And also guess we'll be without KO tomorrow as well.

    Jeff, you couldn't bait a hook with a free can of night crawlers, you pathetic moron. Just admit you're a racist. It is the first step to recovery, as I am sure you know. Now go wash your robe. The boys are getting together for a catfish fry and a big fire.

    "Bait, hook, line and sinker"

    ROFLMAO!!


    Posted by: Average mexican Patty at May 31, 2007 12:44 PM

    Looks like we have us a real "brave" keyboard toughy/anonyloon amongst us.

    "brave"

    -----

    Now a slur against American Indians. At least you're an equal opportunity racist, Jeff.

    That's Native Americans Anon at 11:12 pm, not Amerian Indians. You really aren't all that racially sensitive are you?

    "A question Loin if I do go off and volunteer and shoot a Sunni insurgent in the head.....Is it still "wrong" in your paradigm?

    If it is wrong....Why did you encourage me and the other war supporters, to go and do something that was morally wrong?"


    cee has made a very soft, comfortable bed for himself to lie in. Run into any IEDs on your commute, cee? Good. Its morally right that you did not. Others with less to risk can do the heavy lifting of your redemptive race-war. American military physicians currently over-deployed and overworked in Iraq are obviously those who didn't have the pressing concerns that cee has state-side, so its only morally right that they stay there past their original deployments while Dr. cee disperses medications and Agape Healing Touch or some such bullshit to dowagers in whatever kind of practice he maintains here at home, and cheers the surge on into infinity.

    The Bush administration has shown its hand in regard to its plans for this war - Tony Snow evoked an American presence there akin to our presence in South Korea (I guess the demilitarized zone is going to snake wildly around each ethnicnally distinct village and neighborhood).
    (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-05-30T185451Z_01_N30416213_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-BUSH.xml

    So we are there to stay, and the dying is only increasing. cee is fine with that, and with himself and his mediacal skills being far away from the occupation, because others are already there patching up the soldiers wounded in the fight that he whoeheartedly supports because its important enough to risk American lives in - just not his.

    I'm sure the cut in pay would suck, too.

    SLOB, can you defend the fact that you, time and time again, side with the enemy on the whole war issue? Is it because there is a (R) in the white house or do you a different explanation?

    You forgot one thing about Bill Clinton. He was drafted. Yes, he did receive the dreaded "Greetings" letter. Upon receiving his draft notice he wrote a letter to the draft board asking them to "undraft" him, because he was planning to join the ROTC the next school year. So the draft board undrafted him, and Bubba did not join the ROTC the following year, like he said he would. What a coincidence, SLOB, that you would leave out this important fact about a Democrat. You aren't partisan, are you?

    Posted by: Rico at May 31, 2007 9:57 PM


    I've already said that Clinton should have refused directly and faced the legal music per the concept of civil disobedience. If all war resisters had done so the war would have ended sooner. His overt position against the war, at the time, however, does reduce the stink of his manipulation to avoid service, as opposed to the cheerleading for for foreign aggression persisted in by those I term "chickenhawks"; he was not demanding that others fight in his stead, he was demanding that the fighting be brought to an end.

    A universal national service would preclude the loophole you describe, and would force everyone - Bush, Cheney, Clinton, cee, Cecelia,... to truly take responsibility for their political franchise and vicarious glory-seeking.

    "If it is wrong....Why did you encourage me and the other war supporters, to go and do something that was morally wrong?"

    ...and cee, you know the answer to your own question: we both know there's not a chance in hell that you would ever disrupt your life in any degree for the war you champion from home: a war that critically and explicitly needs your purported skill set perhaps to a greater degree than any other specialty. What I really want is for you to morally awaken and begin to help me 70% of your countrymen to end this crime our government is engaged in (not that there's a chance in hell of that, either).

    You know that I am only pointing out the weakness of your convictions.

    SLOB, can you defend the fact that you, time and time again, side with the enemy on the whole war issue? Is it because there is a (R) in the white house or do you a different explanation?

    Posted by: royalking at June 1, 2007 12:16 AM

    Does "R" stand for "retard"? If so, you might have something there.

    "Side with the enemy?" Who is the enemy? If that can be clarified, perhaps I can tell you if I've ever sided with them, chickenhawk.

    SLOB, the muslim radicals are our enemy, I'm not surprised you didn't or wouldn't acknowledge that. Just a subtle defense of the enemy, again! (Denial). I really didn't expect a straight answer from you. How can you defend the defenseless?

    Bovine is again repeating the myopic
    "You are either with us or against us" dogma from Moron in Chief.

    Perhaps, in a couple of posts more from Bovine, you'll be labeled as "traitor," but if you really piss off the Bovine, you might even get a "muslim" tag along with "olbyloon"

    Go sic'im Bovine!

    LOL!

    "Side with the enemy?" Who is the enemy? If that can be clarified, perhaps I can tell you if I've ever sided with them, chickenhawk.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at June 1, 2007 12:31 AM

    This person has no clue who our enemy is? That's what happens when you gety your news from people like Olbermann!

    LOL!! Bovine, and his impersonation of Moron in Chief!!!

    ---------
    ...Just a subtle defense of the enemy, again! (Denial). I really didn't expect a straight answer from you. How can you defend the *defenseless?*
    Posted by: royalking at June 1, 2007 12:46 AM
    =======================================\

    A typo! A typo! Damn LBURLS!!
    Let him among you who as never hit the *defenseless* key by mistake step forth and point out I should have use the *indefensible* key instead.

    A TYPO!!! A TYPO!!

    I'm still holding my breath for when the ALCU will protect the 2nd Amendment. The other rights in the Bill of Rghts are guranteed only if the People can protect themselves. I wrote an article about this.

    Devil's Advocate
    http://copiousdissent.blogspot.com

    DA, great read!

    mexican patty, when you are on your "typo" missions, you should make sure your own posts don't have any typos, too, you idiot!

    Oy vey! Bwwwovine!!

    Denial, divert, and nit-pick Bovine? LOL!!!

    You go after a missing *d* in "I should have use-d*, yet you leave your stupidity untouched.

    LOL!!

    ---------------------------------
    How can you defend the *defenseless?*
    Posted by: royalking at June 1, 2007 12:46 AM
    ===============================

    Say Bovine, how can you excuse the inexcusable?

    That's right, YOU CAN'T! and it's on the board for everyone to see and confirm your stupidity!!

    Keep postin', Vobine!! LMAO!!


    I'm still holding my breath for when the ALCU will protect the 2nd Amendment.
    -----
    The ACLU does. It just happens that it has the correct and non-self-serving interpretation of the 2nd Amendment; i.e. that its protections extend to a well-regulated militia, not to individuals. The preamble to the Amendment makes that rather clear.

    "Only Cee could post one of the most embarrassing events in Bush's pathetic career and think it's a compliment !"

    Posted by: at May 31, 2007 8:36 PM

    Oh my....The OBVIOUS imitation of your hero, Keith Olbermann goes right over your head....Oh well, if repetition is annoying on a blog for some and not so on a pathetic cable TV News show then I guess I'll keep on it....

    Oh, and Sir Loin of Milquetoast....no crime has been committed, the war is legal and the fine men and women serving you and me in the battlefield are continuing to do their best under horrific circumstances. They, along with the millions of veterans before them, are honorable, brave, loving and great individuals and I know I pale in comparison to them.....Do you realize you do as well? Reflect on that for a bit.

    Giving up your moral stand against war just trying to "win an argument" on a blog is very interesting and makes absolutely no difference in your quest to end the war. All it does is show your true colors....you really have no moral convictions even with reference to this war, along with the majority of that 70% you mentioned....it simply is something you are "against" but have as much conviction about as Keith Olbermann has integrity.

    Using the chicken hawk tact is intellectually dishonest and irrational...but keep it up...along with the other impotent anti-war left that have failed to stop the ongoing policy, you do not seem to understand that your own lack of conviction and commitment to pacifism is why you fail to move anyone of substance that can make a difference in policy.

    I would be much more moved by that 70% if I saw them on the steps of The Lincoln Memorial every week standing against National Guard Troops as they plead for them to put their guns down....instead all I hear are WORDS....anti-Bush, anti-American, and anti-republican rhetoric that shows NO true devotion to stopping war and violence.....The activities of the left do not convince me I am wrong....in fact it reinforces my view that standing by Iraq as an ally against radical Islam is even more important today.

    Most of the 70% you mention are WEAK willed and not sure what they believe....if the war was easily won there would never have been 30% against the war.....AND THE TERRORISTS KNOW THIS....I will not join the majority who allow radicals' manipulation to change their opinion or beliefs....I will support policies that strive for an ideal....even though that may fail because of people like you, Loin, but those ideals still remain right.

    And this is my post today, the 1,493rd day since the declaration of Mission Accomplished in Iraq.....

    I am cee, good night and good luck.

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "There were a few tense moments, however, including an encounter involving Joshua Sparling, 25, who was on crutches and who said he was a corporal with the 82nd Airborne Division and lost his right leg below the knee in Ramadi, Iraq. Mr. Sparling spoke at a smaller rally held earlier in the day at the United States Navy Memorial, and voiced his support for the administration?s policies in Iraq. Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back." NYT 1/28/07

    "I think the Vietnamese are better off in Vietnam," George McGovern - NEWSWEEK

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it." DEMOCRAT Bob Kerrey

    Devil's Advocate,

    Although I do own a bunch of guns, I disagree strongly with your post and your linked blog, which appears to a collection of well-written essays that compile Republican talking points into short, readable collumns without adding a bit of independent thought or analysis.

    The idea that the limitless ability to horde guns is all that keeps us from Hobbesian anarchy is spurious, counter-intuitive, and empirically ridiculous. You talk about "hot burglaries" being reduced due to gun ownership (unsupported, like every other assertion on the entire website, by citations or links), but ignore the fact that an American gun owner is far more likely to be killed by his or her own gun than to use the gun in the resistance to an attack or other crime. etc etc

    Making a national value out of the arming of oneself against one's neighbors is a recipe for a sick society. I would feel far more secure if our country were moving in a direction toward greater social and political justice for all, where urgent need, class bitterness, and hopeless nihilism are not significant forces endangering the public safety.


    On another note; the first story on the blog regarded Barak Obama's supposed promises of "free health care"; is that story yours as well? If so , please show me where a single cnadidate for any office has actually promised anyone "free health care" - this is a new kindergarten-level right wing talking point apropos of nothing that seems to have had some success getting weak-minded righties all excited. Universal health care; comprehensive health care; these are things that liberal politicians talk about, and they are to be paid for.

    As Lucinda Williams sang: "everything's paid for; nothing's free" which is in fact the basis for progressive protection of the commons.

    SLOB, the muslim radicals are our enemy, I'm not surprised you didn't or wouldn't acknowledge that. Just a subtle defense of the enemy, again! (Denial). I really didn't expect a straight answer from you. How can you defend the defenseless?

    Posted by: royalking at June 1, 2007 12:46 AM

    Oh, muslim radicals. What's their flag look like? How many of them are there? Where do they live? What is the economic and industrial base of their economy? What are their goals?

    If you can answer one of these questions without sounding like a comic book I may consider giving you some credence.

    "American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it." DEMOCRAT Bob Kerrey


    Posted by: cee at June 1, 2007 7:28 AM

    This tag-line lazilly and redundantly assumed by cee is from an op-ed by Kerrey in the Wall Street Journal, a collumn which suggests that Kerrey agrees in every regard with the two-dimensional position of the Republican party regarding the ocupation of Iraq.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010107

    Kerrey's thinking is shockingly shallow. Of course the desire for self-determination exsts in Iraq - it is universal human desire. Kerrey's piece advocates a continued military solution, but offers no explanation as to how this will work - or as to why this approach has failed so miserably to date, and has, in fact, exacerbated the problems we face.

    Where was the Iraqi nexus in regard to the reconstrution of their own country? Why were elections there postponed until such a time as their civic infrastructure was utterly destroyed? Why is a network of gigantic American military bases still underway? DINO Kerrey is absolutely silent on these salient questions raised by his own vapid position.

    In short - as I have said here before - our protracted occupation has only ensured that democratically-leaning Iraqis remain innactive, or put them in direct violent opposition to our forces. They don't want to put their political wills into the service of an agressive occupying power! This is such a simple truth wholly relevant to our own history and civic consciousness I am constantly amazed that so many my compatriots refuse to recognize it. Pure hubris of a hopelessly bourgeois empire.

    "There is very little good news coming out of Iraq today. Increasingly vicious sectarian violence continues to propel Iraq toward civil war. The U.S. announcement this week to send additional U.S. troops and military police back into Baghdad reverses last month’s decision to have Iraqi forces take the lead in Baghdad...and represents a dramatic set back for the U.S and the Iraqi Government. The Iraqi Government has limited ability to enforce the rule of law in Iraq, especially in Baghdad. Green Zone politics appear to have little bearing or relation to the realities of the rest of Iraq.

    The Iraqis will continue to face difficult choices over the future of their country. The day-to-day responsibilities of governing and security will soon have to be assumed by Iraqis. As I said in November, this is not about setting a timeline. This is about understanding the implications of the forces of reality. This reality is being determined by Iraqis – not Americans. America is bogged down in Iraq and this is limiting our diplomatic and military options. The longer America remains in Iraq in its current capacity, the deeper the damage to our force structure – particularly the U.S. Army. And it will continue to place more limitations on an already dangerously over-extended force structure that will further limit our options and public support."

    Chuck Hagel; REPUBLICAN

    http://newnebraska.net/2006/07/chuck-hagel-iraq-absolute-replay-of.html



    "Side with the enemy?" Who is the enemy? If that can be clarified, perhaps I can tell you if I've ever sided with them, chickenhawk.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at June 1, 2007 12:31 AM

    Stoopid librul!

    Everyone knows we're there protecting the Sunni from the Shia and the Shia from the Sunni. All of these people will follow us home if we stop dying in their country. Its really quite simple.

    SLOB,

    My point about Bill Clinton is that you deceptively described his relationship with the draft. He lied to get out of it and you did not point that out in your listing of your little heroes. To then tell me what you think he should have done is beside the point. You misrepresented what Clinton did. Now to some of your other heroes. People like Max Cleland, Bob Kerry, and Tammy Duckworth ran for office because and only because they are war amputees. Had they not been grievously wounded they never would have run for office in the first place. Democrats are the party by, of, and for victims, like ethnic minorities, sexual minorities, and the like. The greatest delight for a Democrat is to be an officially recognized victim. Then nobody can question their "absolute moral authority".

    You ask some really stupid questions about Islamic radicals.

    What does a flag have to do with anything? The question is a non sequitor.

    Nobody can say how many of them there are. But I would say that there are too many. If you disagree, you may say so.

    They live in many countries. Is this news to you? Some have been known to live in this country. I say that's a bad thing. Do you "dissent" from that?

    Since they are not a country, but live in many countries, asking about the industrial base of their economy is another non sequitor. You appear to be into the "non sequitor" thing. Are you really that stupid?

    You ask what their goals are. I believe they have already stated their goals. Have you been asleep for the last few years? They have done lots of videos for our viewing pleasure.

    Then you come up with the term "hopeless nihilism". In fact you are describing yourself. You do not believe in anything, and you do not stand for anything greater than yourself. All you can do is rant against those you hate, those "chickenhawks".

    But we can call you names, too. And you are my Suicidal Leftist Dingbat of the Day.



    Rico,

    You sound like a head-injury patient, so I will be brief...

    We're John Kerry, Webb and George McGovern amputees, son? I don't mind idiotic non sequitars, but keep it within the realm of either sanity or street-corner homeless guy insanity...

    Thanks, child...

    No, they weren't. They were:

    Kerry- a lying, flip-flopping, heiress-marrying, elitest snob

    Webb- a conservative republican, illegal gun-toting, law breaking, pedophile-writing, phony

    McGovern- Do I really need to go into McGovern?

    These are blindrat's heros... plus, they, blindrat, and the terrorists want us to surrender in Iraq. Good, little liberal.

    Obama,

    Why not give me some of Kerry's flip-flops, son? Webb ran as a democrat and dissed Bush, something the coward repubs would never do, child. McGovern flew combat, Bush fled from same, Chickenhawk...

    Poor blindrat....he likes McGovern.....an immediately obvious character flaw.....

    Even as of late....4/2007.....George McGovern refuses to see the fact that was the catastrophe of South Vietnam after surrender in 1975.....

    http://www.cornellamerican.com/article/217/

    "Liberal activists during the 1960s hated America and actively sought its defeat. Student protestors waved North Vietnamese flags at their rallies, and when current New York Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger Jr. was asked by his father, 'If an American soldier runs into a North Vietnamese soldier, which would you like to see get shot?' Arthur responded, 'I would want to see the American get shot. It’s the other guy’s country'

    "Not only was McGovern wrong in 1972, he has apparently learned nothing in the past 35 years. He claimed in his speech that there were no catastrophes after we left Vietnam, attempting to draw a parallel to argue for speedy withdrawal from Iraq. What McGovern did not remember was the millions of anti-communist Vietnamese who had sided with the US that were killed or forced to live under the evil and immoral system of communism. He also must have washed away the image of an American helicopter leaving Saigon with South Vietnamese trying to board the craft and escape oppression."


    ###
    Or the millions of refugees he wanted to refuse entry to....

    Hence my oft repeated quote of the loser McGovern....

    "I think the Vietnamese are better off in Vietnam,"

    McGovern is symbolic of the morally vapid religious left in our country.....honorable service in combat not withstanding. Please keep using the guy who's platform was, "“acid, amnesty, and abortion,” I hope for a candidate like him from the democrats in 2008!

    And this is my post today, the 1,493rd day since the declaration of Mission Accomplished in Iraq.....

    I am cee, good night and good luck.

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "There were a few tense moments, however, including an encounter involving Joshua Sparling, 25, who was on crutches and who said he was a corporal with the 82nd Airborne Division and lost his right leg below the knee in Ramadi, Iraq. Mr. Sparling spoke at a smaller rally held earlier in the day at the United States Navy Memorial, and voiced his support for the administration?s policies in Iraq. Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back." NYT 1/28/07

    "I think the Vietnamese are better off in Vietnam," George McGovern - NEWSWEEK

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it." DEMOCRAT Bob Kerrey



    Rico,

    I except wholly your characterization of the foreign enemy we are fighting. It is broad enough to be accurate:


    -Nobody can say how many of them there are.

    -They live in many countries.

    -consideration of the industrial base of their economy is to entertain a non sequitur.

    -their goals are expressed to the world in "lots of videos" - presumably originating in the "many countries" previously referrenced.

    -Your repudiation of my suggestion regaring an enemy terrorist flag is also valid - it would be ludicrous to assert that there must be such a flag - as it would be to look for an enemy terrorist "army". Try to put a single army together of the people we have been fighting here and there and they would kill one another before our troops could get to them. Hell- we've been ostensibly protecting major factions of "them" from one another for five years!

    Also, their general nature as disarticulated as guerilla/anarchist cells allows them to effectively use innocent poplations as cover -getting many of the latter killed because we simply - as you unequivocally pointed out - don't know who the fuck we are fighting, how many of them they are, or where they are or are not. This creates even greater numbers of independent radical elements who want to attack us for a wide range of real or imagined greivances.


    Given this definition and its empirically observable ramifications, how could anyone seriously suggest that a military approach is appropriate? Our terrorist problem is clearly an issue for law enforcement and intelligence agencies, in cooperation with their counterparts in allied countires across the world.

    The use of our military in the "war on terrorism" has been a crime against the American people - gross negligence on the granadest scale. Its only fruits have been to squander our resources, weaken our defensive capabilities, multiply our enemies, alienate our allies, and enrich the "corrosive influence" of the military industrial complex (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/speeches/eisenhower001.htm) .


    see aloso:
    http://newnebraska.net/2006/07/chuck-hagel-iraq-absolute-replay-of.html

    These are blindrat's heros... plus, they, blindrat, and the terrorists want us to surrender in Iraq. Good, little liberal.

    Posted by: Obama-Rama at June 1, 2007 10:31 AM
    blindrat is a muslim, make sense, now?

    We're John Kerry, Webb and George McGovern amputees, son? I don't mind idiotic non sequitars, but keep it within the realm of either sanity or street-corner homeless guy insanity...

    Thanks, child...

    Posted by: blindrat at June 1, 2007 10:23 AM


    blind rat,

    Republicans disdain war-amputees as candidates in favor of Hollywood actors. Its a very simple metaphor for their entire psychology.

    Oh, muslim radicals. What's their flag look like? How many of them are there? Where do they live? What is the economic and industrial base of their economy? What are their goals?

    If you can answer one of these questions without sounding like a comic book I may consider giving you some credence.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at June 1, 2007 8:10 AM

    Hopefully, one lives next door to you!

    cee,

    We were doing so well in Vietnam that Richard Nixon had to lie about it, eh?

    Try not being stupid, young lady. You do a disservice to your gender...

    Defend this, SLOB and blind sheik.

    NINE DAYS AFTER PHOTOS RELEASED, NETS AND TOP
    PAPERS SILENT OVER AL-QAEDA TORTURE HOUSE

    Yet Top Media Ran More Than 6,000 Stories on Abu Ghraib Abuses

    ALEXANDRIA, VA—The U.S. Defense Department released photos last week of an al-Qaeda torture chamber in Iraq, which showed various torture tools—blow torches, meat cleavers, hammers, drills, metal files—drawings of torture methods, and photos of actual victims found in another house in Karmah who had been burned, mutilated, and tortured in myriad ways.

    To their credit, CNN and Fox News Channel ran stories on the declassified material. Yet nine days since the material was released, neither ABC, CBS, NBC, The New York Times nor The Washington Post has run a story with the photos of this shocking evidence of al-Qaeda’s barbarism.

    Concerning the top media’s silence on the al-Qaeda torture chamber in Iraq, MRC President Brent Bozell issued the following statement:

    “The elite media’s liberal bias is abundantly clear in this case. U.S. soldiers raided several al-Qaeda safe houses in Iraq and discovered stacks of evidence about how al-Qaeda tortures its victims. The tools, the drawings, and the photos are gruesome and clearly show what type of enemy the U.S. is facing.

    “Yet most of the liberal media are deliberately silent. This is the same self-righteous liberal media that ran more than 6,000 stories and countless photos of Abu Ghraib and the abuse of prisoners there by several U.S. soldiers. Where are they now? Why will they not show the American people what al-Qaeda is actually doing in Iraq right now? Whose side are they on?

    “Al-Qaeda’s crimes are a thousand-fold more brutal than anything done by any derelict U.S. soldier. Yet it’s obvious now that the liberal media want to focus on U.S. misdeeds, and alleged misdeeds, and theoretical misdeeds instead of giving the truth to the American people.”




    Where did you get that polemic you pasted? It certainly presents a gruesome piture of the people Bush paved the way for in Iraq.

    Why do you want, as you stated above, one of these people to live next door to me - in our country? Is it because you really don;t give a shit about America, and are ecstatically craving a redemptive conflagratory Clash of Civilizations that will speed you, naked and clean, toward your heavenly mansion?

    Yep, that's what I thought.

    "Oh, muslim radicals. What's their flag look like? How many of them are there? Where do they live? What is the economic and industrial base of their economy? What are their goals?"

    Maybe SLOB, that is why the Geneva Conventions do not apply. I'll tell you what they look like. Just look at the group of them standing under a flag reading a manifesto before sawing off someone's head.

    This just in: Al Qaeda is bad and hurts people...

    Well...DUH!

    Besides being covered by the news channels, here is one of the links to the torture manual story. The Islamic State of Iraq is one of the groups in the power struggle to control Iraq. JJust thank them for the torture that our two missing soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division are undergoing if they are not already dead.

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html

    Maybe SLOB, that is why the Geneva Conventions do not apply. I'll tell you what they look like. Just look at the group of them standing under a flag reading a manifesto before sawing off someone's head.

    Posted by: at June 1, 2007 12:19 PM


    OK - but here's a helpful rule-of thumb: Helmets and tanks - call a general; Masks and saws - call a cop.

    Masks and saws and RPG's and IED's , . . .

    Poor SLOB

    Still spinning his wheels and going no where.

    What's the attraction. You aren't going to influence anyone. People like you and Blindrat rack up post after post but nothing you do changes anything.

    Are you both housebound?

    Provide one good solid reason you both continue to hang around. And pretending you are provoking us is utterly foolish. You aren't like us, you don't understand us, you don't know what provokes us.

    Please tell us you have something better.

    failed,

    Thank you very much for your opinion, son...

    I had a gut feeling it would be a physical limitation.

    I send you blessings. May the spirits lift you to a greater plane.

    Sorry child...my penis works just fine.

    Perhaps a 747, son...

    failed,

    Nevermind Blindrat. She's still bitter about a prank I pulled on her a few months ago.

    I have a really good one planned in the near future on another regular poster. I wrote the code for it this semester.

    See you all next week. Headed to...the dentist?

    Been there, done that...

    ...got the temporary crown...

    blindrat,

    you seem to be an expert in all things from the past concerning bush. but let's see what you are truly made of:

    Suppose Congress passes the Kyl-Kennedy-Bush immigration bill this year. And next year the voters elect as president Fred Thompson, or someone else who is skeptical of the benefits of putting mass legalization ahead of getting control of the border. Are the new "Z-visas" promised to illegals in the bill revocable by a future Congress? If they are, why would any rational illegal come "out of the shadows" to claim one (and make himself or herself eligible for re-illegalization)?

    anon,

    Any law not implied by our constitution is revokable. I suppose the "rational illegals" will sign up if they feel that it is safe to do so. If the bill is revoked, obviously they might grandfather those who have already signed up, as with many changes in law.

    Look at it this way: They'd be just as illegal before the attempt as after...

    So are you for the Kyl-Kennedy-Bush immigration bill? And if not, what's your alternative?

    blindrat, why are you ashamed to admit you are muslim?

    royalking give it a rest, i am trying to get an answer to a legit, and god forbid on this board, current policy question.

    I think that the bill is a start, anon. I think of the south and central Americans as simply another wave of immigration...

    so you are for it.

    Until something better comes along. Let's face it, we spent the better part of last century harvesting labor and materials from Central and South America and the better part of the eighties destabilizing governments down there. We have a moral responsibility.

    Maybe this will encourage the powers that be to help these nations to become more attractive places for their populous to live...

    blindrat wrote:

    Maybe this will encourage the powers that be to help these nations to become more attractive places for their populous to live...

    First off, thank you for an answer free of condescension.

    Second, one of the funniest solutions I've heard would seemingly solve all the worlds problems. We turn over Mexico to Israel. Just move whatever they want there and then just open the borders between the US and them. Next thing you know Canada is erecting a fence.

    OWanon,

    The condescension comes after the first insult is levelled at me. I prefer civil conversation...

    I don't think, after the USS Liberty, I'd want to live next door to Israel...

    Bye everybody! My bus awaits...by which I mean, it WON'T wait...

    royalking give it a rest, i am trying to get an answer to a legit, and god forbid on this board, current policy question.

    Posted by: at June 1, 2007 2:36 PM
    So, you are more worried about the mexicans than the muslims?

    Someone forgot to turn on comments again on the 5-31 thread.

    I doubt you guys are making much money on this site (if any at all)...

    ...But please, at least you can ACT like it's a real job every once in a while.

    Okay?

    So, you are more worried about the mexicans than the muslims?
    Posted by: royalking at June 1, 2007 4:52 PM

    I'm worried about the Muslicans....

    They're presently being genetically engineered in venezuela or chile or some place.

    Soon, some central american marxist dictator will unleash his creation on the western hemisphere.

    Be afraid...be very afraid...

    ...and vote Republican :D

    "Then he gave us a presidential coin,'' she said. "Now you check this out: He gave six of us a presidential coin, tell us not to tell the rest of the people that was there, and then after that he told us don’t go sell it on eBay. Now you tell me how insensitive that can be? What kind of caring person is that?''

    - A bereived mother of an American soldier killed in Iraq recounts the most memorable portion of her meeting with Bush

    (http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2007/05/bush_to_mother_.html)

    Trinkets and moronic jokes - that's all that cocksucker is good for - but it still gets all of you eating out of his hand.

    more worried about the mexicans than the muslims ....
    -----
    Jeff has his sheet on again.

    I suppose the Klan must give Jeff a sense of belonging, and it is probably the only club he could join in which he would not be the dumbest member.

    US News, May 4, 1998
    http://www.usnews.com
    Send letters to letters@usnews.com

    A Righteous Indignation

    James Dobson--psychologist, radio host, family-values crusader -- is set to topple the political establishment

    BY MICHAEL J. GERSON

    On March 18, in the basement of the Capitol, 25 House Republicans met with psychologist James Dobson for some emotional venting. But this was not personal therapy; it concerned the fate of their party. Dobson, long on loyal radio listeners and short on patience, was threatening, in effect, to bring down the GOP unless it made conservative social issues, including abortion, a higher legislative priority. "If I go," he has said, "I will do everything I can to take as many people with me as possible."

    In the audience sat some of Dobson's closest ideological allies. Rep. Steve Largent of Oklahoma, a former star football player, was a volunteer speaker for Dobson's organization, Focus on the Family, from 1990 to 1993. He credits this with "sparking my interest in public policy." Rep. James Talent of Missouri, years before, had pulled off the highway and prayed along with Dobson on the radio to become a Christian. "He is the instrument through which I committed my life to Christ. It is the single most important thing that has ever or will ever happen to me."

    But for over two hours, until nearly midnight, House conservatives confronted Dobson about his indiscriminate attacks on the Republican Party, asking credit for achievements he had ignored. At one point the wife of a congressman, in tears, explained how Dobson's broadside had hurt their family, inviting harsh questions from friends. An emotional Dobson, according to one witness, responded, "I'm so sorry I hurt you."

    Sobered, Dobson canceled planned meetings with the New York Times and the Washington Post, where he would have laid out his threat to leave. But in the next two weeks, he sent lengthy, public letters renewing the threat, which hangs in the air like distant thunder at the Republican picnic.

    This conflict dramatizes a growing gap between grass-roots conservatism and governing conservatism, between the raised expectations of activists and the weary realism of legislators. It reveals a party that may be crumbling, not at its periphery but at its center, among its most loyal supporters. And it may be signaling a major shift in the attitudes of Christian conservatives toward politics.

    Many Republicans are taking Dobson's divorce threats very seriously. House Speaker Newt Gingrich has hosted several meetings with other House leaders to discuss Dobson's specific demands, which include defunding Planned Parenthood, requiring parental consent for abortions, and eliminating the National Endowment for the Arts. House Majority Leader Dick Armey has asked subcommittee chairmen to explore how Dobson's agenda could be advanced. But Dobson will not be easily appeased. Of the assurances he has been offered that his issues will be taken seriously, he says: "We've got to see the proof. . . . If they will not change, I will try to beat them this fall."

    His focus

    Dobson is a central figure in Republican politics because he is the central figure in conservative Christianity. His radio and TV broadcasts are heard or seen by 28 million people a week. A core audience of 4 million listens to his Focus on the Family radio show every day. That gives him a greater reach than either Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson at the height of their appeal. Dobson's most popular books have sold more than 16 million copies, and his other tracts and pamphlets have sold millions more. His organization, Focus on the Family, has a budget five times the size of the Christian Coalition's and gets so much mail it has its own ZIP code. His mailing list of over 2 million is one of the most potent organizing tools in the religious world.

    But the 62-year-old Dobson is not a preacher or political activist. He is a psychologist, and his authority comes from an ability to connect with people right at the level of their problems. "His family advice is simply helpful, and he has a reputation for absolute integrity--standing for something and sticking to it," says Prof. John Green of the University of Akron, an expert on the religious right.

    The effect is completed by the slight drawl of a country doctor, a radio voice that is at once effortless and authoritative. Its influence seems to surprise even him. "My voice is a friendly voice that comes into the home each day, somebody they know, somebody many of them trust. And it does become a kind of friendship. It's a strange thing. I have a lot of women especially who write me and say, 'My father was not a father to me. . . . You've become a father to me,' which is interesting when you consider I've never met them."

    Dobson is very much the son, grandson, and great-grandson of Nazarene evangelists, a denomination known both for moral sternness--no movies or makeup--and for the emotional openness of the camp meeting. This is the evangelicalism of the quivering lip, the arm around the shoulder, the lump in the throat, the easy tear. Though he might resent the comparison, Dobson displays a Clinton-like emotional connection, particularly with women, who make up the vast majority of his audience. He accepted the Nazarene faith at the age of 3 and never rebelled against it, though, like many of his generation of Nazarenes, he abandoned its more rigid prohibitions against pop culture.

    As an only child, Dobson was "spoiled rotten," recalls old friend Mike Williamson. "His family doted over him." And Dobson developed a particularly close relationship with his father, who combined the moral rigor of a preacher with the softer traits of an artist. (He was a serious painter.) "He was a gentle man, a kind man, an easy touch, but outraged toward sin," Dobson says. "He had an abhorrence of that which offended God, and a lot of what I feel today reflects that."

    Dobson might have been expected to go into the ministry himself. But Nazarene ministry must be inspired by a very specific calling from God, and Dobson never felt it. He went instead to a Nazarene school in California, Pasadena College, and then to the graduate program in psychology at the University of Southern California. There he found himself interested in the science of child development, and he spent 14 years as a professor of pediatrics at the USC School of Medicine and 17 years on the attending staff at Children's Hospital of Los Angeles.

    In the middle of this career, Dobson was hungry for broader influence on the issue he cared about most: child rearing. He hired an agent and began lecturing. And he published a book in 1970 titled Dare to Discipline. It sold 3 million copies and established his national reputation. Dobson, who has written 15 other books, is a critic of permissive parenting. He stresses the idea that kids need boundaries to develop self-esteem and self-confidence. Children's behavior can be conditioned by the judicious use of rewards and punishments. He believes spanking is permissible, but only between 18 months and 8 years, and never by anyone with a history of abuse or a violent temper. But he also argues that rules without relationship lead to rebellion. So parents, while firm, should be emotionally accessible to their children.

    Dobson stresses the need for fathers to be fully engaged in the life of their family, in contrast to the distant breadwinners of the past. His film on the subject, Where's Dad?, had a profound effect, for example, on Rep. Frank Wolf of Virginia. "That film, that day, changed my life. After that, I never went to a political event on Sunday, not when asked by George Bush or Ronald Reagan. I dedicated myself to spending more time with [the children]. My kids joke about B.D. and A.D.--before Dobson and after Dobson."

    The psychologist's method is a mix of traditional parenting, biblical insights, and basic psychology--a traditionalism humanized by common sense and flexibility. His advice to a mother and 12-year-old daughter fighting bitterly over whether the young girl should be allowed to shave her legs: "Lady, buy your daughter a razor!" His counsel on masturbation: "Attempting to suppress this act is one campaign that is destined to fail--so why wage it?" He urges discipline for the big issues and tolerance on the smaller stuff.

    When demand for Dobson as a speaker began to steal time from his own two children, he quit his job at Children's Hospital of Los Angeles in 1977 and started his radio program. Two years later, he summarized his parenting views in a seven-part Focus on the Family video series, which has now been seen by 70 million people. Rapid growth carried the ministry through five headquarters buildings and from California to Colorado Springs, where 1,300 people work in the $113 million enterprise.

    Focus provides answers to those seeking advice. It is also the center of a pro-family culture that is a kind of parallel universe to mainstream popular culture. There are monthly magazines for preschoolers, grade schoolers, teen boys, and teen girls. Glossy, frank, and helpful, they have articles like "Battle of an Anorexic," "Back-to-School Fashion," and "Spiritual Growth Boosters." Other magazines go to single parents, teachers, physicians, and pastors. Focus's second-most-popular production--after Dobson's daily radio program--is Adventures in Odyssey, a children's radio drama with moral story lines that is carried on over 1,500 radio stations. There are women's seminars and "Life on the Edge" seminars, designed to help parents and teens communicate about the challenges of adolescence. A new abstinence video, titled No Apologies, combines MTV production techniques, biblical values, and the explicitness of an Army VD training film. Teens who have already had sex are urged to be "recycled virgins." It is countercultural, urging children to rebel against the slipshod moral world around them by displaying virtue.

    Most of the Focus operation, which receives up to 12,000 letters, calls, and E-mails every day, is occupied with "constituent service." In one pile of counseling requests at a random Focus cubicle, a long-distance trucker asks how to keep his family together when he is always gone; a woman deals with a miscarriage; a divorced man asks if it is OK to remarry. Prototype responses, drawn from Dobson's vast output of advice, guide counselors. All incoming letters are stored by computer, so the next time these people write, the dialogue will pick up where it left off. Focus does not just answer mail; it maintains relationships. Some hard cases are referred to licensed counselors. Some people are offered temporary financial help. They deal with one or two suicide threats a week.

    Dobson's reach grows each day. At a recent weekly meeting of the Focus "cabinet"--Dobson plus his senior executives--there were reports on the translation of Focus broadcasts into Zulu. On how three Central and South American countries were putting Focus abstinence material into their public schools. On how Adventures in Odyssey is now one of the top five radio programs in Zimbabwe. On how 500 state-owned radio stations in China are about to begin the Focus broadcast.

    When it comes to the business of helping people, Dobson the empathetic extrovert has a reputation as an intimidating micromanager. No one, no matter how long or loyal their service, is exempt from confrontational scrutiny. "I saw people who had given blood [serving] him come out of his office weeping," says a former employee. "He believes so strongly in his rightness." Another former employee says "the pace [at Focus] is unbelievable. But everyone has to appear perfectly happy."

    At the center of it all is a man who does not lack confidence. He tells a story about his ill father, who prayed for three days and nights without sleep that his time on Earth would be extended so he could finish his work as a minister. At dawn, God told him he was going to reach millions around the world--not through himself but through his son. The next day Dobson's father suffered a major heart attack; he died in a few weeks. "I saw for the first time," says Dobson, "why [Focus on the Family] seemed charmed--beyond my ability and beyond my intelligence, my academic knowledge, my ability to communicate." This is the person who has chosen to test his influence against the Republican Party. He does not describe his actions as those of a man moved by grubby ambition; he sees it as a calling.

    Politics and prophecy

    Dobson was once positioned to be a more conservative version of Joyce Brothers. "If I had simply stayed on those [family] themes, I could have moved with ease through all denominations in both political parties. But I care about the moral tone of the nation. I care about right and wrong. I have very deep convictions about absolute truth."

    His sense of political urgency has come in stages. Convinced that his and his followers' views were not being given voice in Washington, he created in 1982 an advocacy group, the Family Research Council. But it was purposely designed to keep him one step removed from direct political involvement. Gary Bauer, a key aide in Ronald Reagan's White House, now runs the group, and he is supposed to be the partisan lightning rod, allowing Dobson to focus, as it were, on the family.

    But Dobson, in the past several months, has become so dissatisfied with conservatives' performance in Congress that he wants to become more directly and personally involved in politics. "He has watched the manipulation of the religious right for the last decade," argues his close friend Charles Colson. "He feels a sense of betrayal and responsibility for stewardship of the great silent majority."

    He is particularly intolerant of those who share his views but not his driving sense of urgency. So he has developed a habit of targeting allies with footnoted letters showing that Dobson can at times slip over the line between righteousness and self-righteousness. When Ralph Reed, then the head of the Christian Coalition, was insufficiently critical during the last election of Colin Powell for his support of abortion rights, Dobson wrote to Reed: "Gary Bauer and I have discussed your recent statements and considered the need to distance ourselves from you. . . . Some of the politicians with whom you have made common cause . . . would seal the fate of [unborn children] and sacrifice millions more in years to come. I will fight that evil as long as there is breath within my body." Commenting on Dobson's tendency to attack allies, conservative columnist Cal Thomas argues, "You begin to marginalize yourself, saying, I am the only true believer. Soon you are left only with your wife, then you begin to look at her funny. All of a sudden, you're Ross Perot." When confronted with the charge, Dobson responds: "I guess it irritates me when people who know what is right put self-preservation and power ahead of moral principle. That is more offensive to me, in some ways, than what Bill Clinton does with interns at the White House."

    Dobson is not the kind of traditional conservative who has a keen appreciation of the limits and complexities of politics. He is a moralist and a populist, demanding rapid, immediate progress to fit a flaming moral vision: "If you look at the cultural war that's going on, most of what those who disagree with us represent leads to death--abortion, euthanasia, promiscuity in heterosexuality, promiscuity in homosexuality, legalization of drugs. There are only two choices. It really is that clear. It's either God's way, or it is the way of social disintegration."

    Some conservatives dismiss this as an impractical philosophy for a governing party since progress emerges by small steps. Other conservative critics fear that Dobson's increased partisanship might undermine the generally nonpartisan good works of Focus on the Family. Still others warn that his walkout strategy will only result in the election of Democrat Dick Gephardt as House speaker. Dobson's response: "It is never wrong to do what's right. And you stand for what's right whether it is strategic or not."

    The fact that Dobson has struck a chord among conservative activists may be signaling an important shift of political styles in evangelicalism. There are at least three of those tendencies to be considered: priest, kingmaker, prophet. From the 1950s to the 1970s, Billy Graham performed a priestly function as minister to the ministers of state. His role was to legitimize power and to use his access to present the Christian Gospel, which was his primary goal. Personal contact and influence were paramount. In the 1980s, culminating in the rise of Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition, the goal shifted from legitimizing power to exercising power--the role of kingmaker. Robertson, the son of a senator, understood the give and take of coalition building and the need for a place at the table.

    But the pragmatism of the religious right is under serious question, particularly in the wake of the coalition's embrace of Republican Bob Dole in the last presidential election, which many in the movement argue was a compromise too far. University of Akron's Green compares Dobson to an Old Testament prophet "speaking truth to power." It is a designation Dobson accepts: "I really do feel that the prophetic role is part of what God gave me to do."

    And that frames the questions for his supporters: Do Christian activists want to be players or prophets? Insiders who accept inevitable compromises, or outsiders who hold on to higher standards?

    The next move

    Dobson has rejected the idea of becoming a political candidate himself or trying to create a third party. This leaves him with two options. The conventional choice is for Dobson to intervene directly in Republican primaries on the side of social conservatives. This would require, in Dobson's words, "periodic leaves of absence" to protect the nonprofit status of Focus on the Family. Bauer's political action committee has already scouted 40 races where Dobson might throw his weight on the side of a candidate. After the congressional elections, Dobson would determine how to have the maximum impact in the 2000 presidential campaign. Bauer himself is considering a presidential run and covets Dobson's endorsement.

    But Dobson is also actively considering "going nuclear" against the GOP leadership. Instead of working through primaries in the summer, Dobson would urge social conservatives to abandon Republicans in November--to stay at home or vote for third parties--with the goal of ending the GOP majority in Congress. "It doesn't take that many votes to do it. You just look how many people are there by just a hair, [who won their last election by] 51 percent to 49 percent, and they have a 10- or 11-vote majority. I told [House Majority Whip] Tom DeLay, 'I really hope you guys don't make me try to prove it, because I will.' " One senior Republican official says he has identified six districts in which Dobson could "turn the tide" against the GOP candidate. Dobson muses about delivering this message by "getting a stadium with 50,000 seats and having Chuck Colson and Phyllis Schlafly and Alan Keyes and Gary Bauer and myself fill it at a strategic time. That gets the attention of Republican leaders."

    Some Republican insiders believe the effect of either approach--working within the party or working against it--would be much the same. Bauer's political action committee's fervent support for a conservative candidate in a recent California congressional special election helped elevate the abortion issue. Party leaders believe this allowed Democrat Lois Capps to win in the moderate district. They fear that if Dobson intervenes on behalf of social conservatives in other contests, similar results will follow. As for the nuclear option, the mood of many Republicans is frustrated resignation that Dobson will always be on the attack against the GOP. "It wouldn't matter how many hoops of fire we jump through, it is never enough for him," complains one party official. That strategist and others say majority parties have a responsibility to govern, and that means muting ideological fervor at times. It is hard to imagine this official and Jim Dobson in the same party--and it may be increasingly hard for Dobson to imagine that as well.

    With Major Garrett and Carolyn Kleiner

    Someone forgot to turn on comments again on the 5-31 thread.

    I doubt you guys are making much money on this site (if any at all)...

    ...But please, at least you can ACT like it's a real job every once in a while.

    Okay?

    Posted by: Please tell me what to think... at June 1, 2007 5:31 PM


    They're phasing out the comment thing - their pals keep getting the living shit kicked out of them day after day. Its gotta be tough.

    Americans — at least really stupid Americans like George Bush — believe the natural state of the world is to have individual self-determination, human rights, the rule of law and a robust democratic economy. On this view, most of the existing world and almost all of world history is a freakish aberration.

    In fact, the natural state of the world is Darfur. The freakish aberration is America and the rest of the Anglo-Saxon world.

    The British Empire once spread the culture of prosperity around the globe — Judeo-Christian values, tolerance, equality, private property and the rule of law. All recipients of the British Empire's largesse benefited, but the empire's most successful colony was the United States.

    At the precise moment in history when the U.S. has abandoned any attempt to transmit Anglo-Saxon virtues to its own citizens, much less to immigrants, George Bush wants to grant citizenship to hordes of immigrants who are here precisely because they are fleeing cultures that are utterly dysfunctional and ruinous for the humans who live in them.

    Yes, this country has absorbed huge migrations of illiterate peasants in the past — notably Italian immigrants at the turn of the last century. But also notably, half of them went back. We got the good ones. America was not yet a welfare state guaranteeing room and board to the luckless, the lazy and the incompetent from cradle to grave.

    Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, immigrant and first Jewish member of the Supreme Court, said that Americanization required that the immigrant adopt "the clothes, the manners and the customs generally prevailing here" and that he adopt "the English language as the common medium of speech."

    But, Brandeis said, this is only part of it. "(W)e properly demand of the immigrant even more than this — he must be brought into complete harmony with our ideals and aspirations and cooperate with us for their attainment. Only when this has been done will he possess the national consciousness of an American."

    Or as George Bush would call it, "empty rhetoric." And as Linda Chavez would call it, "racist."

    I wish our new immigrants had come to America back when the foundations of civic society and patriotism were still inculcated in all immigrants (and when half of them went home). But traitors who are citizens have destroyed all acculturating institutions. Traitors who are citizens have also destroyed all incentive for the poor to work or even keep their knees together before marriage.

    Until the recipient culture is capable of doing an effective job of Americanizing immigrants, it's preposterous to talk about a massive influx of Hispanic immigrants accomplishing anything other than turning America into yet another Latin American-style banana republic. And it is simply a fact that no one is trying to turn immigrants into Americans.

    To the contrary, Democrats are trying to turn new immigrants into wards of the state — and with some success! — so they will be permanent Democratic voters. Rich Republicans and their handmaidens in Washington are trying to turn immigrants into a permanent servant class.

    In an astonishing exchange on Fox News last weekend, Dan Henninger of The Wall Street Journal responded to Heather MacDonald's point that Hispanics in this country have a 50 percent illegitimacy rate, the highest teen pregnancy rate of any group and the highest high school drop-out rate of any group, by asking: "Why don't we feel we are under cultural assault in New York City? You have no sense of this at all here."

    You also have no sense of the existence of a middle class in New York City. The rich have hidden the evidence, transplanting all but the massively wealthy to the suburbs. Manhattan is white and getting whiter, while the boroughs are noticeably less white and more dysfunctional.

    What evidence is there for the proposition that American culture will leap like a tenacious form of tuberculosis to today's immigrants? Americans display no evident desire to defend their culture, much less transmit it, and immigrants show no evident desire to adopt it.

    To the contrary, immigrants are replacing American culture with Latin American culture. Their apparent constant need to demonstrate is just one example.

    As Mac Johnson wrote in Human Events last year, these immigrant protests represent "the colonization of America by the Latin style of politics." He listed just some of the demonstrations drawing thousands — sometimes hundreds of thousands — of protesters over the last few years in Mexico alone. Among the targets of the protests were a new regional trade pact, plans to allow private investment in the state-owned electricity industry, energy and tax reforms, and support for the mayor of Mexico City.

    In 1993 — long before 9/11, before the USS Cole bombing, before the bombing of our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania — the eminent Harvard political scientist Samuel P. Huntington predicted that the greatest threat to Western civilization would come from a clash of civilizations, noting with particular concern the "bloody borders" of the Muslim world.

    So it ought to be of some interest that Huntington is now predicting, in his book "Who Are We: The Challenges to America's National Identity," that America cannot survive the cultural onslaught from Latin America.

    American Hispanics responded to Huntington's book with a flurry of scholarly papers and academic debates to counter his thesis that Mexicans were not assimilating.
    Just kidding! They called for national protests against Huntington, his publisher and Harvard University.

    But what would you do with your time if no OW?

    12:34-A model olbyloon, to say the least.

    Obama-Rama, thanks for the post.

    That was as well said as anything I have seen on the subject. Is it your work.

    A job very well done.

    Grammie

    THE MUSL-ICANS!!

    BEWARE!! ONE MIGHT BE LIVING NEXT DOOR!!

    "Be afraid...be very afraid...

    ...and vote Republican :D"

    -----

    You took the words right out of Jeff's mouth (after you put them in semi-literate form and content). May he quote you?

    "My mistake, which actually was not a mistake..."
    as the Bovine sez,

    I didn't post with my moniker!! MY BAD!!

    Yes! Bovine! That was me!!

    Yes! Bovine! I was partially quoting your paranoid stupidity!

    LOL!!

    Heck, Bovine doesn't need permission to quote *me*.
    BovineQueen is free to open her trap anytime she wants to insert her hooves into it!

    the 51-year-old was arrested in February and was indicted in May on charges of having what a U.S. magistrate described as "the most perverted and nauseating and sickening type of child pornography" she ever had seen.

    He was the Virginia ACLU president until 2005 and served on the group's board until the day he was arrested.

    Authorities said he used his own credit card and his own e-mail address to access and purchase an estimated $1,000 in graphic and violent child pornography during 2005 and 2006, according to Virginia's North Country Gazette.


    He faced a maximum sentence of 11 to 14 years on each of two counts, had he not reached a plea agreement.

    Court records indicate Rust-Tierney had subscribed to several websites featuring child pornography over a period of years.

    The federal indictment alleged he "knowingly received multiple computer files that contained photo and video depictions of minor teenage and prepubescent children engaging in sexually explicit conduct."

    An anonymous chat room participant on the cannablog was distressed by the low profile in the national media over the case. When Rust-Tierney's arrest first was announced, authorities didn't even mention either his ACLU or youth league coaching connections.
    No media bias?
    "This man was the PRESIDENT of the Virginia ACLU and while he was president, he lobbied to keep the Internet available to child pornographers via any port available, and WHILE he was president he was engaged in purchasing and subscribing to child (infant and toddler torture) pornography for his personal and sexual gratification. The ACLU. Pouring money into a machine that victimizes children. For years. And that the media is keeping this out of sight is okay with you? Wow," he said.

    Fox News' Bill O'Reilly called it a "horrifying" case. And he noted that the two "biggest left-wing outfits in the country – the New York Times and NBC News – ignored the story entirely." CBS News, CNN and most of the big city liberal newspapers also failed to cover the Rust-Tierney arrest, Fox said.

    "That Mr. Rust-Tierney, a leading proponent of unrestricted access to the Internet, has now been arrested for receiving and possessing graphic child pornography should serve as testimony to the injudicious and baleful outgrowth of the legal challenges launched by the ACLU questioning the constitutionality of important legislation that protects children from Internet exploitation and content harmful to minors," said a statement released by spokeswoman Cris Clapp of Enough is Enough, an organization dedicated to protecting children from the dangers on the Internet.

    "When Mr. Rust-Tierney argued before the Loudoun County Library Board that unrestricted access to the resources of the Internet was essential for our children's ability to learn and communicate, and when groups like the ACLU contend that acceptable use policies alone are capable of protecting children online, they fail to acknowledge the tragic and devastating effects to children and families of both intentional and unintentional access to online pornography," the statement said.

    The investigation that resulted in Rust-Tierney's arrest was conducted by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, as well as Arlington County police as part of the Northern Virginia and District of Columbia Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force.


    chinese pussy moonbat, ACORN is phony? Registering and voting for thousands of dead people in several states is "phony?"


    Note: I updated the title to make sure there is no ambiguity in what is being reported. I stand by the conclusion which must be drawn if someone is tampering with the registration system.

    Recent Democratic talking points portrayed the 2006 efforts to curb voter fraud as a political move by Republicans to suppress certain blocks of "disadvantaged" voters. I've read publications who went as far as to say that the charges brought up against several ACORN works last year ended up being false and were dropped. As usual, the truth, is a far cry from what the repeated talking points where.

    The Kansas City Star is reporting that at one of the ACORN workers pleaded guilty yesterday for filing false paper work with the Kansas City election board.

    Carmen R. Davis, 38, was charged in January with committing voter registration fraud and identity theft before the November elections.


    One of the four workers is already serving probation for their plead agreement with a second waiting sentencing and the the third scheduled to go to trial in July.

    This incident proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that something needs to be done to combat fraud. These were also the individuals who were caught. There is no telling how many thousands of fraudulently cast ballots were allowed because of such negligence.

    It also proves a point regarding the fishing expedition put on by Upchuck Schumer or Leaky Leahy over the firings of the U.S. Attorneys. Next time they ramble on about Rove trying to push a political agenda and rig the outcome of an election, simply point to this story. It is a factual case which proves a point.

    Still think it's "phony?" I would recommend you try a different news source.

    You've got a good moniker, Ropeadope. You don't realize that (R)'s, as our spokesman Jeff calls us, are above the law? The laws is made for little people, for minorities, women and (D)'s, not for (R)'s. Where did you go to school? Harvard? Figures! What newspaper do you read? The NEW YORK TIMES? Figures! You better watch it or I'll tell Jeff and Jeff will have Bill-o, the Big Wiener and Cox silence you. There! I just debunked you for good!

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