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    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    May 1, 2007
    Countdown with Keith Olbermann - May 1, 2007

    "COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN" (8:00 P.M.-9:00 P.M. ET)

    Host: Keith Olbermann

    Topics/Guests:

    • IRAQ: Frank Rich, New York Times; Howard Fineman, Newsweek chief political correspondent
    • ATTORNEY GENERAL ALBERTO GONZALEZ: Jonathan Turley, George Washington University law professor and constitutional law expert
    • "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED": Rachel Maddow, Air America radio host

    As if "Man on Fan" Olbermann could not have a more appropriate lineup for a busy Tuesday. Frank Rich, known smear artist. The Perfessor. Err America, the bankrupt and ratings deprived left wing radio network. Plus GonzoGate! [Ding!] All of House Boy's best friends ready to preach to the choir.

    UPDATE: Video & Transcript

    Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly book Culture Warrior

    #5: Four years "after mission accomplished", "troops don't get funding and it's not his (the President's) fault. "Four years ago, it was widely perceived as one of the most macho moments in Presidential history...What was accomplished?" Keith reminds us of how many people have been killed and wounded in Iraq followed by a clip of the Senate Majority Leader (D) and House Speaker (D) with a clip of the President trying to "explain himself" why he vetoed it. Explain, in OlbySpeak, naturally means a lie or some kind of "hypocrisy" which is rebutted by a clip of Speaker Pelosi (D) using a quote of the President's from '99 on "timetables" and his agreement with it then. Speaker Pelosi suggests that is pertinent eight years later. The President vetoed a "war spending bill" (wait, what about those timetables and so forth? Nevermind) on the "anniversay of Mission Accomplished." More OlbySpin that is, naturally, unchallenged. Like last night, he mentions that the President actually stated the "end of major combat operations." Not exactly "Mission Accomplished." No matter, moving along. Herr Olbersturmfuhrer plays a series of clips of the "Mister" Bush over the years stating the same thing about the goal in Iraq, with Keith arguing that since the President's statements have been CONSISTENT about the progress, that somehow that means failure. At the same time, he says the goals have shifted yet every soundbite is that of the President talking about creating a democracy in Iraq. Fat Ass' logic and sound bites could have been contrived by the Laughing Stagehand as they seem to make no sense vis a vis what Keith is implying. Whatever. It does not matter as long as the President somehow looks bad. Always "looking forward" to another "milestone." Jabba would rather say that those in power want an indefinite war on the thinking that since the USA is helping create a democracy in four years, that is not FAST ENOUGH for old KO. Frank Rich chimes in on "selling the war." Of course, Frank Rich is one of the most partisan people around. Irrelevant. He's Great Thanksed before even saying anything! That should tell you something. Olbermahn feeds Frank a softball which he calls a "very good question." I nearly died from shock. Frank thought Keith's question was very good? You don't say? Frank muses on the idea that the real Al Qaeda is only in Afghanistan and that the administration suggested that any Al Qaeda in Iraq had something to do with 9/11. Funny thing is, Frank Rich by this very statement admits Al Qaeda was, in fact, in Iraq to begin with! The administration never asserted anything of the sort. Secretary of State has repeatedly stated they do not believe that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 despite reporting to contrary by a conservative publication (The Weekly Standard) suggesting Iraqi intelligence had contact with Al Qaeda. By far the most hysterical and stupid statement by the infamous, deplorable one occurred when he asked, "...the thing that really got me going tonight about that veto statement, he does not want the troops and the generals ordered around by politicians six thousand miles away from Iraq, the opinions of politicians, does the President, you think, no longer view himself as a politician? The members of his administration are not politicians? The Republicans who are in office, 'because of the war', are not politicians anymore, somehow?" Whoah! Stop the Tivo! I cannot find any higher point of Olbypocrisy than this statement right here. Not only does Olby seem to forget the fact that the President is in charge of foreign policy, regardless of whether or not he is a 'politician' (of course he is, he was ELECTED TO AN OFFICE. DUH). Keithy manages to sneak the idea that Republicans (unnamed of course) are elected to office solely on Iraq. Really? I thought 2006 was the watershed year where all those in favor of the Iraq war, e.g. Republicans, were wiped out? I guess they're still getting elected. Furthermore, members of his administration are not "politicians." They are not elected to anything. Now, Edward R Olbermann should know well enough the President appoints all cabinet level positions and nominates all Ambassadors and Judges. Are they all slovenly, political hacks that are part of the vast right wing conspiracy, Olby? Journalism at its finest, folks. It is clear that our beloved anchor understands all the inner workings of our government. Furthermore, he does not seem to complain when "politicians" from the House and Senate try to dictate foreign policy and what the generals should do via time tables and trips to Syria. Frank Rich continues to provide nothing to the discussion except the wholly original "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic," line. Interestingly, Frankie denies the Democrats are smart enough to get the President to veto the "war funding bill" on the anniversary of "mission accomplished." Olby reiterates lies about "body armor" and manages to use the disgrace of the Defense Department vis a vis Pat Tillman to attack the President. Keith concludes by suggesting that he once joked someone in the administration read George Orwell's [Ding!] 1984 but were merely too stupid to use it effectively. As always, "a pleasure."

    #4: Keith launches into the hope that Democrats can override the Presidential veto. Not happening. "So called surge." Enter Howard Fineman, stage left. Fineman, with deep thought, thinks that the meeting between the President and Democratic leaders will be "chilly." No, really? I thought they agreed? Thanks for the heads up. Though that doesn't stop Fineman from prognosticating that there will be a much smaller number of Republicans following 2008 if no deal is reach. Ted Baxter asks if the President matters anymore because Congress is negotiating. No! Congress negotiating? Impossible! Keithy is a laser. Fineman mentions "Moveon.org" as the heart of the Democratic part. Eek. I'm not sure, even as a member of the vast right wing conspiracy, that would be good for the Democrats. KO hopes that someone in the Republican field will "fervently" come out against the President. Fineman drops Ron Paul's name. Great thanks.

    Oddball: The great bed race. Futuristic car renderings with a crack on Bush (Internets).

    #3: Gonzogate! [Ding!] "Gonzo" keeps digging a deeper hole. In a stunning move, "Gonzo" allowed people to fire attorneys which are political appointments to begin with! Sacrament! How dare he? Clinton only fired...well.....all of them. Welcome the Perfessor. It has been a while. Keith jokes about "Gonzo's" bad memory bringing about a smirk from the Perfessor who of course, agrees. The Perfessor even goes on to compare the current Justice Department to the old Soviet system of Kommisars. Why not just go to Nazis? They're just as bad. Perfessor asks what Gonzo does during the day, but apparently he can't remember. He's just an "empty suit." Apparently, to Monkey Man, the Justice Department has been polticized. I wonder if he ever thought the same of the Reno Justice Department. Despite the fact, it's not illegal to fire any of these attorneys for WHATEVER reason (even if your humble recapper would agree that firing people for prosecuting others they do not want to is wrong. There is no evidence to suggest such. If Sen. Feinstein had a problem with one of these attorneys, is she being political and therefore wrong? No mention of that. Moving along. This is a very "serious" matter to the Perfessor. More Soviet era references Olby agrees and adds a Watergate [Ding!] reference. As always, Great Thanks.

    #2: DC Madam. Giving tips. Adam's Apple Olbermann getting excited over discussion about adult services. Monica Novotny from MSNBC contributes as to free KO from any work.

    #1: To cap off another fantastic episode, Keith ranted about the "Mission Accomplished" speech once more. It appears he cannot move on past four years. Bring in the ever esteemed Rachel Maddow of Err America Radio which, last I recall, was a bankrupt disaster of left wing lunacy. She not only parroted everything Krazy Keith said, but she augmented it more than he could have ever imagined. This viewer was surprised he didn't lead off the show with Ms. Rachel Maddow as she could not be a better fit for KO than KO himself. Perverse jokes about what was in the President's pants, the transparent nature of the "Mission Accomplished" speech despite the fact we "fell for it", we knew it was "bogus" and the cheerleading was "disgusting." Most "tragic." KO found the event like Top Gun and "creepy." Hmm....."Man on Fan" should be careful about what he calls creepy. Rachel Maddow brings in Sanjaya from American Idol to relate to the President. Again, I'm lost. Perhaps I am simple minded. The whole event was a "disaster" and a "spectacle." Of course, Great Thanks for your time.

    A special mention of the four years since "mission accomplished."

    The Media Matters minute began with James Inhofe (R-OK), followed by Glenn Beck of CNN and paleoconservative Lou Dobbs topping the list. The funny part is that two of the "worst" dealt with Nazi references. That never stopped the Fuhrer from making his Nazi salute. All's fair that's unfair on OlbyPlanet. The bronze went to Sen. Inhofe for quotes taken out of context (surprise) about the media's desire to discredit the motivations for the war in Iraq (Blue Blog source: ThinkProgress). Silver: Glenn Beck, assumed conservative on CNN HLN for making an analogy that, as usual, didn't suit the Sieg Heiling Fuhrer (Blue Blog source: Media Matters). The gold was awarded to the Lou Dobbs of CNN, known paleoconservative, for suggesting some groups have used propaganda similar to that of the Nazis. Dobbs's fault was not so much the analogy as it was the person: he stated Goering instead of Goebbels. Tisk Tisk Dobbs, you should know your Nazis like Olby. (Blue News source: NYSun).

    NAME

    Olbermann's book The book that bears Olbermann's name crept to #3,113 at amazon.com and is having a 70% discount sale, but "Culture Warrior" is #655. (It's that 2-for-$25 sale!) The OlbyTome held on at #4,793 at Barnes & Noble; O'Reilly's book is #1,006 there, and is one of the top five books of 2006 per Publishers Weekly. Tonight's MisterMeter reading: 3 [GUARDED]

    UPDATE: Video & Transcript

    Read the transcript to the Tuesday show

    One defense often made of Olbermann is that when he gives opinion on Countdown the segment is clearly separated from news reports and the word "Special Comment" is displayed on the screen. Of course, we know this is baloney but last night was a particularly egregious example of Olbermann moving rapidly from what is ostensibly a news report to flat out opinion with a nary a disclaimer to be seen.


    Posted by Edward Schatz | Permalink | Comments (152) | | View blog reactions
    user-pic

    152 Comments

    Myth Busting the Top 10 Myths about Olbermann Watch:
    ________________________________________________________________________

    1-OW only obsesses about Keith because he doesn’t allow contrary viewpoints on his show.

    Wrong! OW obsesses about KO because they don’t agree with his views ‘countered’ or not! If he didn’t have contrary views on his show, but ALSO didn’t take Bush to task and call out Fox News, this website wouldn’t exist and you know it.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    2-OW only uses KO-like tactics on Keith, so it’s okay.

    Wrong! Using the same tactics you rail against on Keith would already make you a big enough hypocrite. But you don’t stop there. You use them on KO, his fans, people you think are his fans, and anyone you think has any views left of anything in your small underdeveloped brain. Remember folks, we don’t justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. Didn’t you get the Talking Points Memo?
    ________________________________________________________________________

    3-OW only dislikes Countdown because it’s billed as a news show on the MSNBC website.

    Wrong! Do you honestly believe someone would visit the MSNBC website, read about Countdown, then watch expecting to find a news program, then after watching Countdown, still think it’s a news program and have their worldviews changed because they were ‘tricked?’ I thought conservatives were supposed to give people more credit than that. I guess not.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    4-Attacking OW is the same as defending Keith.

    Wrong! Since the ONLY people who can’t understand this is the Olbsessed themselves, this doesn’t actually qualify as a myth. This belief is probably the pinnacle of self-indulgent myopia: To think that anyone who would be against what they are doing must be fans of Keith. Their existence centers around Olbermann, so not only do they define themselves through their dislike of Olbermann, they define any opposition through Olbermann as well.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    5-Fans of Keith are like a cult.

    Wrong! Until Keith starts hocking ‘Countdown Gear’ and publishes ‘WPITW for Kids’ I’d say O’Reilly’s Kool-Aid drinking ‘T-Warriors’ have the ‘TV personality as Cult Leader’ racket all wrapped up.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    1-Although OW would like to characterize it’s website as Fans of KO vs Detractors of KO, it’s actually just a Left vs Right slugfest.

    True! About the only time someone comments and gushes about Olbermann the person or Countdown the show, it’s usually an OW supporter dressed up as the opposition. Can’t find someone to argue with? Argue with yourselves! Don’t think its left vs right? Check out any thread any day. Case closed.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    2-Brandon is quite possibly the dumbest most self-deluded person posting in a public forum these days.

    True! Proof:

    You've once again missed the big point here and the primary source of my mith.

    Posted by: Brandon at April 25, 2007 11:43 AM

    Master’s Degrees sure ain’t what they used to be.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    3-Royal Queen makes more comments than anyone else on OW.

    True! He may not use the most words (once he learns some more he should close the gap) but Royal Queen pa-trolls this website far more frequently than anyone else. No, I don’t have hard numbers to back up that claim, but empirical evidence should suffice, and it’s available here in spades. I’m sure if Cox had the foresight to realize that an idiot like Jeff would be riding up front in the Olby Bashing bandwagon, he never would have pulled out of the station.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    4-Cecelia tortures herself by watching Countdown three nights a week (even employing digital technology to catch up when necessary) while talking to the TV.

    True! Don’t believe me? Just ask her!
    ________________________________________________________________________

    5-Grammie is a hard-drinking wig-wearing Archie Bunker wannabe.

    True! Although playing the role of victim makes her feel important, her favorite role is that of Archie Bunker. Once the grand kiddies go home, it’s time to time to pull out the vodka and cigars, get online, and transform herself into the belligerent bigoted Grammie we all know and love.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    4-Cecelia tortures herself by watching Countdown three nights a week (even employing digital technology to catch up when necessary) while talking to the TV.

    True! Don’t believe me? Just ask her!

    Posted by: LMAO at May 1, 2007 9:49 PM


    Well,....yeaaah!!...

    Your point?

    lmao, who's obsessed? That would be you, queer boy.

    6. LMAO has been pretty well locked into a state of perpetual PMS for awhile, starting at age 14, when she discovered that God was not cooperating and was unlikely to let her be in charge when she grew up.

    Consequently, she spends time at OW reading posts and thinking about how she could have written better, and that by all rights, she should write all the posts here and wishing that daddy Bob hadn't been so busy with "those other people" that he didn't have time to listen to her read the poetry she writes alone in her room, nor to tell her all those other girls "are just jealous"....

    Well,....yeaaah!!...

    Your point?

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 1, 2007 10:06 PM
    The point was he has issues with Olbermannwatch. Yet, he supposedly doesn't defend Ulbermahn. Yes, we have another one of those!

    Until Keith starts hocking ‘Countdown Gear’ and publishes ‘WPITW for Kids’ I’d say O’Reilly’s Kool-Aid drinking ‘T-Warriors’ have the ‘TV personality as Cult Leader’ racket all wrapped up.

    Posted by: LMAO at May 1, 2007 9:49 PM

    1. The proceeds from the sales of the stuff Bill sells on his website go to charity.

    2. Writing a book for children that helps them deal with everyday problems such as bullying in school is not a bad thing.

    3. When we have judges who sentence child rapists to probation. When we have the American Civil Liberties Union defending a website that encourages the rape of children. When we have talk show hosts on broadcast television in the middle of the day saying that 9/11 was an inside job. When our elected officials oppose legislation that toughens penalties for those who assault people over 70. Then I think this country needs 'T-Warriors'.

    When's the last time Olby has done anything beneficial with his show other than rail against the "evils" of conservatives? Try never! Atleast O'Reilly has exposed public officials and the like that abuse their power. I suppose that's why he's so vilified by the masses since for the longest time, the MSM acted as a monopoly(and stll do, contrary to what some believe).

    Eschatz has 1 more minute ---

    poor E Schatz, he is having a rough week.

    I say let Bovine write the recaps!

    LOL!!

    Ulbermann's hair is greying very rapidly!

    This is sloppy at best.

    At least Johnny always had the recap up.

    Belated Olbermann Watch Episode Summary (Unofficial).

    [5] Keith Olbermann shows us how many times over the years that President Bush used the same phrase over 4 years. It amounted to 25. Then came some one to balk about the photo op that was repeatedly called "bogus". While not the same amount as over 4 years, by ratio, the same amount. Keith Olbermann's parrot went on to say that the ship faced the other direction to give the impression that it was not near the West Coast, the troops were "stalled for hours", and that he could have used a helicopter despite the fact that Bush has been shown in a helicopter many times. There also was some Chris Matthews bashing (a holdover from when Chris pointed out his bias after the debate.)

    [4] Getting out of Iraq. There will be a "another attempt before September" says Frank Rich. Everyday it is time to pullout on Countdown. The show that dictates policy. Republican candidates will "distance themselves" from the president that will be leaving the White House so there would be no reason to link yourself with him anyway.

    [3] Gonzales bashing to the tune of he needs to go. Every day he stays is making the left angrier and angrier - especially when they have enough copies to work through backed up.


    [2] Some chick.

    W.P.I.T.W.: Something so minor I do not even want to mention it came in Bronze. Glenn Beck for calling Al Gore's methods similar to Adolf Hitler's. Illegal Immigrancy got Lou Dobbs in trouble. (Blue Blog Source: Media Matters for America, May 1) Keith Olbermann did not play the part where Glenn Beck said that they were teaching hatred in classes that were not relevant to the class, a highlight when I made it there. This was Gold. (Blue Blog Source: Media Matters, May 1) Glenn Beck smells the exhaust from the pipes of cars "that Al Gore is trying to stop" (?). Nothing about Pat Buchannan (M.S.N.B.C.)

    [1] A double dose of Mission Accomplished. The Rachel Maddow version which is not much more different than the initial version. Complaints about their dress.

    I do not deny Johnny is most efficient with his recaps. I have a touch of OCD and have to review my posts many times over before I am done. I am working on efficiency.

    Good Lord. Keith keeps naming people "Worst Person in the World" because they compare people to Nazi's. How many times has Keith compared people to Nazi's? A dozen? Two dozen? Does Keith have a really bad memory or does he just not care that he is major hypocrite?

    do not deny Johnny is most efficient with his recaps. I have a touch of OCD and have to review my posts many times over before I am done. I am working on efficiency.

    Posted by: Edward Schatz at May 2, 2007 2:31 AM


    Edward, Johnny is quite brilliant and you should certainly aspire to his level. However, you are doing a great job and getting better each time you post.

    Thanks!

    Keep up the good work, Edward! Thank you for your time and effort.

    Edward, thanks for manning up and sitting thru an hour of that crap. Loons, let up for awhile - he's doing a public service. Give the man a break.

    You're doing a good job, Edward. Your efforts at exposing this hypocrite are appreciated. Love the line about Dobbs - "you should know your Nazis like Olby." lol

    The first comment for the night....once again....the "great thinker" LMAO.....

    The inability of LMAO to understand that scorn and ridicule is deserved by a journalist who purposely presents himself as someone like Edward R. Murrow but ignores and abuses the very ethical standards REQUIRED by the very profession he claims membership, simply shows that he/she is either totally blinded by their own ideology and/or just dim. The very complaints LMAO would have about Fox News or O'Reilly is seen sevenfold in COUNTDOWN's content. Keith Olbermann holds to no journalistic standards and NBC News is the lesser for their association.

    Keith Olbermann is no different than Rush, Hannity or Savage on the right in what he does on his show. The repeated attempt to associate himself with the great journalist Murrow, however, takes Olbermann to a different place....all by himself.....a man who is deluded into believing he is being objective in analysis and presentation. LMAO even obtusely admits this in #3 on the list.

    So, LMAO, continue your obsession with OW, continue posting....it is amusing AND instructive. As you continue to contradict yourself in the same posts, I enjoy seeing the evidence that those who hold to Olbermann's world-view seem as confused, unhinged and conflicted as the leftist cariciture, the same....Keith Olbermann.

    One of the best ways to vet one's beliefs is to see the type of person who objects to them the most lustily. LMAO....you reassure me with every post you make.....
    IN SPADES to use your term....

    As does Sheridan (craigs), Sir Loin of Milquetoast and many, many others.

    Oh, BTW leftists....So now that the American left has been defeated in their pathetic attempts to end the Iraq war with the blessed and honorable constitutional actions of President Bush, what will they do to end the war now?.....Will they finally do the ONLY effective thing they can....not fund it at all? Or will the nibbling at the edges I mentioned back in January continue through the entire year of 2007? Come on people....Don't you want success and REAL action by the leftist ruling elite?

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    Good job on the recap E! Keep up the good work. You've riled up the KO Krazies and that's always a good sign you're right on target.

    LMAO: Yeah, you know I laugh my ass off every time I read your posts. Now I know why you chose your that particular user name. And Cecila, I think you're dead on about why LMAO is the way she is. I know I've profiled her "works" on the Olbyfan boards here at Owatch and I think that alone speaks to her state of mind, that is, if she actually HAD a mind. But it's good to see they let her off the short bus every once in a while to grace us here at Owatch with her presence so that she can confirm every single FACT we know to be true about the Keithcultists.

    does Olby take Viagra when he sees Bill O' ratings every night-abount 2.5 million, does he dream of ever getting those kinds of raings?

    Somebody needs to make a Flash video of Keith scolding Lou Dobbs "Ixnay on the aziNay eferences-ra" audio over a picture of Herr Olbermann seiging the heil.

    maybe even a ytmnd

    Miss Maddow from America Erred
    Add Uberloon and it's moonbat squared
    The right must be blamed
    NBC's not ashamed
    Of Countdown (as if anyone cared)

    Haven't heard Olbermann declare Levin worst person in the world since Levin gave it right back tohim and thensome. Olbermann being the coward that he is only attacks but when someone responds to him he wets his pants and goes after someone else. Wake up O'reilly, Beck, Gibson etc. and learn from Levin.

    explorer,

    Why lie, son? Olby has put O'Reilly on his worst person list many times after O'Reilly responded...

    Do all neocons have to lie?

    Certainly!

    Keith is a steaming pile of... No, seriously... Keith's show is comedic fodder. He has the same the analysts on every other night.. .Dana Milbank, Frank Rich, Stephanie Miller, repeat... Keith's circus is an echo chamber. Most of his "guests" are Upper Manhattan Dwellers just like Keith. And just like Keith, they think the majority of the country is stupid.

    They feel since they are ivy league educated, live in cosmopolitan new york and are citizens of the planet, that makes them better than everyone else..... In their circles, it's very passe' to be an American...

    Keith Olbermann is easy to figure out. He is a physically meager, unathletic jock sniffer that was picked last for the team if at all growing up. He discovered he had a gift for writing though and pursued athletics through the pen/tv camera... He is a typical double standard holding, hypocritical liberal who is neither here nor there... he is always where it is politically convenient for his little circle in Manhattan. But, hope springs eternal... sooner than later he will step on the garden rake and take one to the chin... Stay tuned... just take everything he says with a grain of salt... wait... make that the whole SHAKER of salt...

    Speaking of Stephanie Miller, I've been watching her this week as she plays guest radio program host in Imus' old time slot on MSNBC.

    I miss Imus, but Miller is really good. I enjoy political humor and parody regardless of what side is being skewered and Miller is fun and her show is funny. She has an ironic yet non-bitter approach, which I think is vital if you want to appeal to more than just a fringe audience.

    She's attractive too and very at ease in front of the camera.

    She has done so well this week, that I think we'll see her again because she's bound to be given a show by some cable channel.

    Blindrat,

    Your name certainly fits you. O'reilly never mentions Olbermann by name cause he doesn't want to give him publicity. I believe its time for him to give it back to Olbermann which would probably send him back to the rathole that he infests. Maybe you can meet him there.

    explorer,

    If, by "not mentions", you mean, "calls FOX security when his name is mentioned", you've got it right.

    Try not being stupid, son. We both know about the feud between the two...

    Ulbermahn is aging badly. That;s due to certain drugs he uses for his limpness!

    explorer,

    He still mentions Olbermann, but not by name. Observe:

    "...O'Reilly refuses to mention Olbermann by name, but complained earlier that "an NBC commentator" had said that "President Bush is allowing Americans to be killed in Iraq for money and other insane stuff. Unbelievable."

    Olbermann had said that one of the president's accomplishments has been "to take money out of the pockets of every American, even out of the pockets of the dead soldiers on the battlefield and their families, and to have given that money to the war profiteers..."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/14/AR2007011401124_pf.html

    blinrat,
    What do you think of Ulbermahn's rapidly greying hair?
    He's aging really bad.
    I think his lies are consuming him!

    Joker,

    If you want attention, ask an intelligent question, son...

    It is good to see where President Bush can gather his strength and resolve from so as to not relent against those like Olbermann who have nothing positive to contribute to the world.....

    "When President Bush vetoed legislation that would have pulled U.S. troops out of Iraq, he did so with a pen from the father of an Ohio Marine killed in Iraq.

    "Bush signed the veto Tuesday night with the pen, given to him by Robert Derga, the father of Marine Corps Reserve Cpl. Dustin Derga, who was killed in Iraq on May 8, 2005.

    "The elder Derga, of Uniontown, Ohio, spoke with Bush two weeks ago at a meeting the president had with military families at the White House. Derga asked Bush to promise to use the pen in his veto.

    "On Tuesday, Derga contacted the White House to remind Bush to use the pen, and so he did. The 24-year-old Dustin Derga served with Lima Company, 3rd Battalion 25th Marines from Columbus, Ohio. The five-year Marine reservist and fire team leader was killed by an armor-piercing round in Anbar province."

    http://www.examiner.com/a-705872~Bush_uses_Ohio_pen_to_veto_troop_withdrawal_measure.html


    ###
    President Bush continues his policy with support of many in The United States.....Oh what will the poor left do now?

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    cee,

    I'll bet there are a lot of other parents of dead boys who'd like to give Bush a pen to sign the timetable into law...

    Bush isn't helping anything. He lied us into war and has no idea how to get us out of it. If you call that an accomplishment, then you have no real standards, miss...

    Ulbermahn is againg really bad. I think it's his use of anti-Impotentcey drugs.
    Anyo ne care to quess?

    blindrat,
    I want to leave Iraq too.
    But for a different reason.
    If we leave the Islamic Jihadis will be at each other's throat!
    You'll have Al-Qaeda vs. Hizb'Allah, Iran vs. Saudi Arabia, Iraqi Sunnis vs. Iraqi Shias all in all it's a win win for us.
    If at the end of the day Iraq leads to an all out Itra-Islamic war that devesates and sets back their civilization, it would've been worth it, agreed?

    The above Iraq post was mine!

    BU$HWIPE$!! Haha. Gotcha. That is so clever.

    Keith N,
    What do you think of an Intra-Islamic war due to our withdrawal?
    That would be great, don't you agree?

    Joker,

    Since when is the death of innocent people "win/win" for us, son?...

    "The above Iraq post was mine!"

    You don't say!

    You don't need to fall all over yourself to take credit for that bloodthirsty garbage, you Christian Soldier you. No one could mistake who vomits up that kind of sentiment. Royal on his worst day doesn't hold a candle to you. You are simply a sick person.

    "Since when is the death of innocent people "win/win" for us, son?..."

    Less people the Jihadists can pool from.
    Why do you care about the deaths of Muslims?
    If you were killed by Muslims of a US Civil War, they wouldn't care about you!
    You're a Kaffir, their enemy.
    Thanks for proving that the Radical Left are a bunch of head in the dand fools that support Islamists.
    Great Thanks!

    "Bush isn't helping anything. He lied us into war and has no idea how to get us out of it. If you call that an accomplishment, then you have no real standards, miss"

    Posted by: blindrat at May 2, 2007 2:33 PM


    Then I guess neither does Mr. Derga, and about 35% of The United States population, blindrat....But despite your tired propoganda with hand-wringing and unfortunetely for you blindrat, the correct and honorable Mr. Bush has the power and will to do the right thing and support the troops in their honorable mission.

    Oh dear....what will the Defeatocrats do now to pander to their leftist minions? All they can effectively do to bring the troops home is to cut the funds but alas, it seems they are still not doing that.......Why, blindrat?

    I enjoy it when blindrat ignores my questions.

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    Cee: "Mr. Bush has the power and will to do the right thing and support the troops in their honorable mission."

    Cee believes killing thousands more young American troops and maiming many times more than that to achieve the exact same end result somehow equates to 'honorable'.

    I guess using that word 'honorable' and continuing to delude yourself somehow into believing you are on the side of 'right' must take all of the guilt away.

    5-Fans of Keith are like a cult.

    Wrong! Until Keith starts hocking ‘Countdown Gear’ and publishes ‘WPITW for Kids’ I’d say O’Reilly’s Kool-Aid drinking ‘T-Warriors’ have the ‘TV personality as Cult Leader’ racket all wrapped up.

    Wrong again OlbyLoon. Olby doesn’t sell T-Shirts or books for kids because no one would buy them just like no one bought his book. O'Reilly's books are NY best sellers. Keith probably did try to write another book but publishers like to make money.

    -Cecelia tortures herself by watching Countdown three nights a week (even employing digital technology to catch up when necessary) while talking to the TV.

    True! Don’t believe me? Just ask her!

    LAMEO attacks Cecelia for watching Meltdown even thoughtshe hates Meltdown and yet he hates OlbermannWatch but still he reads every post and comments everyday. Interesting.

    Uh, Mike.....I (Cee), as well as Mr. Derga and millions of your countrymen support President Bush in stopping those with only shallow political goals thwart the mission currently underway in Iraq and Afghanistan.....

    Poor Mike can't seem to try any different course of rhetoric....Just like the tired Congressional leadership who knew they would lose in their tantrum against and are even now not over-riding a constitutional veto.....

    "Cee [Mr. Derga] [General Petraeus] [millions of Americans] believe(s) killing thousands more young American troops and maiming many times more than that to achieve the exact same end result somehow equates to 'honorable'."

    Would you say the same thing to Mr. Derga, General Petraeus or anyone else with the same opinion that I have, Mike?

    Oh yeah, that's right....you and blindrat are incapable of answering a simple question....Like....Why does the congressional leadership continue to allow funding for a war they (and you) say we have lost? Ummmmm?

    Who is REALLY the deluded one in light of my last question, Mike?

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    LOL! Can it get any funnier?

    Factor just MADE LMAO's point that Keith's 'fans' are anything but a cult.....and I don't even think Factor knows that he did it!

    LOL! Can it get any funnier?

    Factor just MADE LMAO's point that Keith's 'fans' are anything but a cult.....and I don't even think Factor knows that he did it!


    How exactly did I make LAMEO's point? LAMEO's point is that anyone who writes a book or sells T'Shirts is a cult leader. By that standard Hillary Clinton and Obamanation are cult leaders.
    My point is, people usually write books and sell T Shirts because people want to buy their books and T shirts.

    Cee asks: "would you say the same thing to Mr. Derga, General Petreaus, or anyone else with the same opinion that I have, Mike:

    Easy question...of course I would!

    "Why does the congressional leadership continue to allow funding for a war they (and you) say we have lost"

    Why exactly would you ask ME to answer a question about why the CONGRESSIONAL LEADERSHIP did or didn't do something?...or do you think I just might be Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid in disquise?

    Why do you continue to ignor my questions about the morality of supporting the inevidible deaths of thousands more US troops in the support of dubious goals that even the most ardent supporters seem to concede my be unattainable?

    Just where would YOU draw the line Cee? At what point would the cost in lives, moral, military readiness, and treasure become too high for even you to continue to rationalize?

    There has to be SOME point at which you would draw that line yourself.......Cee?

    Blindrat,
    Why doesn't your hero slime Levin anymore. Because he's scared sh-tless of anyone who stands up to his crap. He goes after oreilly and the rest in the hope that they will mention him and his pathetic rants. His ratings could sure use a boost. He's a total lowlife who deludes himself into thinking that he has any importance. Got it,son.

    As a follow up Cee, you and yours love to keep throwing around those silly words like 'victory' and 'defeat' in regards to this tragic occupation.

    Our Militray was not 'defeated' in Iraq. They DID their job admirably when they easily defeated the Iraqi army, and captured control of the country. They then held the country under occupation admirably....long enough for a suitable and lasting transistion to have occurred. Nothing more than this should ever have been asked of them. Our army is being asked to do something NO army should ever be asked to do. So don't try to hang that 'defeat' label' on our military.

    Any 'defeat' that is occurring rest squarely on the shoulders of the politicos who thought this was a good idea in the first place....the ones like Bremer, who handled the transistion with classic Bushco incompetence....the many other political appointees sent in chosen strictly on the basis of loyalty, rather than competence.....the policy bumbles inimating from the very top that sent the message, wittingly or unwittingly, that torture is Ok and tolerable.....the lack of troops sent to secure both the country, the borders, and the weapons............etc....

    No Cee, our honorable miliary 'won' the war. The administration you think is so 'honorable' lost the peace...it's that simple.

    "occupation" Ding
    " Bushco incompetence" Ding
    "lost the peace"
    More Huffo post buzzwords from coward Mike. Still trying to find that casualty free war.
    "Our army is being asked to do something NO army should ever be asked to do."
    Actually Mike
    Our troops were ask to do this in WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Unfortunately Vietnam was the only other war where the media rooted for the enemy. Try a history book for a change.

    Royal on his worst day doesn't hold a candle to you. You are simply a sick person.

    Posted by: VOK at May 2, 2007 3:12 PM
    On my worst day I only catch mike in one lie or one hypocritical post, good days I find 3 or 4!

    Jeff, you've NEVER caught me in a lie, and hypocrisy is simply a matter of personal perception. Everybody always sees 'hypocrisy' in their opposition's posts...some real...most imagined.

    And just for curiosity, why did you use that particular quote from VOK, which had nothing to do with me, as a basis for taking another baseless swipe at me?

    By the way Jeff, did you learn anything last night about Ansar Jeff...and the baseless allegations about Al Qeada being in Iraq before the invasion, or do you want to just continue to wallow in ignorance?

    Factor: "still trying to find that casualty free war."

    Not at all, just trying to find that necessary war...and Iraq isn't the one.

    Factor: "try a history book for a change"

    Actually I'm fairly well versed in modern history, and there isn't a thing you could possibly say to educate me about any recent war.

    And no, Factor. Our Army was NOT asked to do in those other wars what it is being asked to do in Iraq.

    As for 'Huffpo', you clearly seem to know a lot more about what is on there than I do.

    So we didn't Occupy Germany? We didn't Occupy Japan? We didn't try to stop a civil war between North and South Korea? We don't occupy the boarder between North and South Korea. We didn't interject ourselves into a civil war in Vietnam?
    What history books are you reading? Are you sure they don't say "Comic Book".

    Classic Mike....wants his cake and eat it too....I support the troops but not the war....

    Fantasyland is a part of Disneyland, Mike.....Terrorists (wow, some even from Al Queda) are fighting a war against our troops currently in Iraq and Afghanistan.....General Petraeus seems to believe he and his troops are in a war....In fact, real bombs are going off intended to kill US troops...mmmmm.....Don't they need funding as requested by the elected official under our constitution.....a guy named George Bush?

    Or do they? Well, the Democrats in congress say this war is LOST.....Then why are they willing to fund it?

    You can dance all you want around the REAL issue, Mike, with rhetorical flare and other sophistry....But the reality is that there are people in Iraq and Afghanistan who want to kill US troops and their allies.....What do you want to do about them?

    Nothing?.....Then you should support cutting the funds for the war....Forcing George Bush to withdrawl the troops with the constitutional tool the founding fathers gave the representative branch of our government.

    Stop your politiking, Mike and require leadership from your ruling class.....My guy is leading....Bush is sticking with a policy he believes in despite threats/insults/poor polling/etc.....he has a great guy running a new offensive that has garnered results and should be given the amount of time required to have it work.

    What about your "guys" Pelosi, Reid, etc....How are they going to attain their goals? They said, "We want the troops home." Why are there 4000 more troops in Iraq today if they won the election in November so decisively and they are so powerful? What are they doing that has been INEFFECTIVE for almost 5 months now to change one iota of Bush's surge policy? Why do you accept their failure?

    Mmmm?

    Please, regurgitate your talking points to the ideological robots on more friendly blogs....I want honest debate and leadership....not politics.

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    In recent times, every incoming president of a different party than the outgoing president has fired all of the US attorneys. That's not the same thing as apparently picking a few US attorneys to fire because you're upset they aren't going after your political enemies. You know that so why do you keep saying "Clinton did it?" As if that's a good thing in your mind anyway? I don't know that this was the motivating factor for Mr. Gonzales, or his subordinates to whom he delegated a huge amount of authority, but there is certainly evidence to support that theory. It's vital to the country that criminal prosecutions not be done for political reasons, and this agnostic thanks God that some decent attorneys understood that. If Mr. Gonzales did not understand that, how sad.

    Cee, when you stop asking people like me why people in Congress arn't doing what they should be doing, we can have a more honest discussion. Obviously, you know where I would stand if I were there...but I'm not there.

    YOUR guy...the one you claim is such a great and honorable leader, has screwed up.....over and over and over and over again. Why is it that you always skate around THAT?....While asking me purely rhetorical questions that you know damned well I could not possibly answer?

    I personally don't care WHO stops this damned war...I just want it stopped.

    And you can repeat it 10,000 more times and it still won't be even close to the truth; There is NO hipocrisy in supporting the troops and not the mission...and this from a former 'troop'.

    The troops deserve and respect leadership at least as honorable and competent as themselves....something they have never even come close to getting from this crooked and incompetent band of idiots.

    No, Factor, we have never tried to referee or control a civil war before between multiple religious factions who the only ones they hate more than each other is us....with us being 'led' by someone who did not even know the difference between Sunnis and Shiites before deciding he was the chosen one to change their entire culture and historical rivalries.

    Mike says....."the one you claim is such a great and honorable leader, has screwed up.....over and over and over and over again. Why is it that you always skate around THAT?"

    I have only one concern.....and that is what is done now....your wanting to look backwards through your myopic lense is just a waste of my time and bandwidth....We disagree about what has occurred and who is responsible....I am willing to leave it at that.

    What should be done now is what Bush is exactly doing with the honorable and very competant leadership in General Petraeus and Secretary Gates. They continue the hard work while you and your group whine and complain thusly....

    "I personally don't care WHO stops this damned war...I just want it stopped."

    Ain't gonna happen, Mike unless the funds are cut....Bush is right to exercise his constitutional power to protect the security of the United States and its interests in Iraq and Afghanistan......your congressional leaders are wrong.

    My questions are valid.....Yours only go over opinion with regard to events occurring over the PAST 6 years.....Your discussion solves no challenge facing our great nation currently.

    And with regard to the respect and honor of the troops....If George Bush et al are so incompetent, why are they still running the shop?.....The congress also has the constitutional ability to bring these executives up to answer impeachment charges that could give cause for the Senate to remove them from office.....

    NO one is even talking seriously about that option....Why not Mike?

    Your heated words do not match your leaders actions....tsk, tsk, tsk....what a shame. I asked these same questions back in January and you leftists still have such difficulty answering them!

    I was proven right then, and in September I am confident the war will still be funded.

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef


    No, Factor, we have never tried to referee or control a civil war before between multiple religious factions who the only ones they hate more than each other is us.
    Mike

    So when we occupied Germany, the Germans did not hate us even though we fire bombed their cities? The Soviets didn't hate us when they were trying to take over Germany? The Japanese didn't hate us after we nuked them? Korea was not a civil war? What fairy tale do you live in?

    By the way Jeff, did you learn anything last night about Ansar Jeff...and the baseless allegations about Al Qeada being in Iraq before the invasion, or do you want to just continue to wallow in ignorance?

    Posted by: Mike at May 2, 2007 5:12 PM
    The REAL question is did YOU learn anything while you being schooled last night? You were dead wrong and not man enough to admit it, again. No surprise, SRP!

    Oh boy....this doesn't make me feel very good about the choices in 2008....

    (from http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi)

    "Obama was asked to name 'America's three most important allies around the world' — a question rejected as 'too easy' on Fox's new game show 'Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?' Any politically savvy 11-year-old could have named Britain, Australia and Israel.

    "B. Hussein Obama answered: 'the European Union.' Which is (a) not a country, and (b) not an ally.

    "What was his next guess? Epcot Center?

    "In addition to not being a country, the 'European Union' happens to be composed of people who hate our guts. It is the continent where Moveon.org-style lunatics are the friendly, pro-American types and the rest are crazy Muslims.

    "Obama did eventually mention Japan as an ally — along with China and Afghanistan — which would have been a better answer to the question: 'Who are America's four or five most important allies?' But at least he named a country that could conceivably be called 'an ally.'

    ###
    Nice summary of the debate though....I guess it's early in the campaign so I'll cut 'em some slack.

    "I have only one concern.....and that is what is done now....your wanting to look backwards through your myopic lense is just a waste of my time and bandwidth....We disagree about what has occurred and who is responsible....I am willing to leave it at that."


    lenny,

    I notice in your reply that you don't deny the claim bush has been wrong many times but instead take the position that it does not matter, that you are future oriented in your thinking about the war.

    My question is this: since you are not taken the postiion that Bush has been right, how do you continue to trust the credability of a man you don't deny has made some serious errors of judgement in regards to the Iraq war? If his judgement has been consistently wrong in the past why would you expect it to be any better now?

    And finally have you found the magical unicorn yet?

    My guy is leading....Bush is sticking with a policy he believes in despite threats/insults/poor polling/etc.....he has a great guy running a new offensive that has garnered results and should be given the amount of time required to have it work.

    Posted by: cee at May 2, 2007 8:05 AM

    The idiot Cee continues to support a man who difies the wishes of the American people, the Iraqi people and just plain common sense.

    The "garnered results" is a lie ..of course.
    Whenever the Bush administration doesn't like the results they are getting they just change the playing field to get the "results" they want.
    Car bombings are no longer being counted as "terrorist acts" in order to cheat the statistics.
    That's like not counting the drownings on the Titanic.
    But does Cee think criticially, knowing how much this administration lies? Of course not. He continues to flag waving while ignoring reality.
    Cee never met a war he didn't like. And as this chickenhawk continues to squawk, more of our troops are dying b/c Bush has put them in a position where they cannot win.

    So believe the lies that there are "results " in Iraq as the blood of innocent people continue to be shed and NOTHING is accomplished !

    I have two questions for Mike and all the other Anti-Bush, Anti-War, Keith-Worshippers who care to respond.

    1. You keep saying "Bush is defying the will of the American People". If most of the country wants to do the wrong thing, does our Government have an obligation to do that wrong thing?

    2. If we pull out of Iraq as quickly as Congressional Democrats want, do you think things in Iraq and the region will get better or worse?

    So believe the lies that there are "results " in Iraq as the blood of innocent people continue to be shed and NOTHING is accomplished !

    Posted by: Why Do You Care What My Name is at May 2, 2007 8:28 PM
    nobody cares what your name is AND nobody cares what you think!

    So believe the lies that there are "results " in Iraq as the blood of innocent people continue to be shed and NOTHING is accomplished !

    Posted by: Why Do You Care What My Name is at May 2, 2007 8:28 PM
    nobody cares what your name is AND nobody cares what you think!
    Posted by: royalking at May 2, 2007 9:45 PM

    The truth digs into Jeff like a dagger in the back !

    1. You keep saying "Bush is defying the will of the American People". If most of the country wants to do the wrong thing, does our Government have an obligation to do that wrong thing?

    WRONG thing ?
    Surely you jest.
    We haven't accomplished anything but igniting the Middle East and enhancing the raging civl war in iraq.
    Wrong thing !
    Oh brother !

    2. If we pull out of Iraq as quickly as Congressional Democrats want, do you think things in Iraq and the region will get better or worse?

    Well of course BUSH has said they'll get worse.
    But how does he know? Please tell me what he's been right about so far in this war.

    The situation in that country will probably improve.
    Our presence fuels the insurgency that wasn't even in Iraq until we invaded.
    But we're going nowhere with huge embassies being built as we speak.

    The more intelligent question is...how long should American blood be shed over a country that will never see peace, or a real democracy?
    Whether we pull out in one month, one year or one century, there will still be a civil war going on in that country !

    anonyloon, are we the ones doing the suicide bombings that are killing innocent people? No. Therefore, no truth to your post, therefore, no dagger in my back!

    "The situation in that country will probably improve."
    "Whether we pull out in one month, one year or one century, there will still be a civil war going on in that country !"

    Posted by: at May 2, 2007 11:02 PM


    anonyloon, aren't these 2 statements made by you a little conflicting?

    no brains in your head either.

    responding to a retarded person like you is a waste of my time.

    You'll love the next news story
    No wonder you eat this crap up.

    STUDY: Bill O’Reilly Uses Derogatory Names ‘More Than Once Every Seven Seconds’

    oreilly2.jpgA new study by Indiana University media researchers finds that Fox News host Bill O’Reilly calls “a person or a group a derogatory name once every 6.8 seconds, on average, or nearly nine times every minute during the editorials that open his program each night.”

    The study documented six months worth, or 115 episodes, of O’Reilly’s “Talking Points Memo” editorials “using propaganda analysis techniques made popular after World War I.” Researchers found that O’Reilly “was prone to inject fear into his commentaries and quick to resort to name-calling. He also frequently assigned roles or attributes — such as ‘villians’ or downright ‘evil’ — to people and groups.

    Some findings from the study:

    – Fear was used in more than half (52.4 percent) of the commentaries, and O’Reilly almost never offered a resolution to the threat. For example, in a commentary on “left-wing” media unfairly criticizing Attorney Gen. Alberto Gonzales for his role in the Abu Ghraib scandal, O’Reilly considered this an example of America “slowly losing freedom and core values,” and added, “So what can be done? Unfortunately, not much.”

    – The researchers identified 22 groups of people that O’Reilly referenced in his commentaries, and while all 22 were described by O’Reilly as bad at some point, the people and groups most frequently labeled bad were the political left — Americans as a group and the media (except those media considered by O’Reilly to be on the right).

    – Left-leaning media (21.6 percent) made up the largest portion of bad people/groups, and media without a clear political leaning was the second largest (12.2 percent). When it came to evil people and groups, illegal aliens (26.8 percent) and terrorists (21.4 percent) were the largest groups.

    The techniques used by Indiana University researchers to study O’Reilly were also “used during the late 1930s to study another prominent voice in a war-era, Father Charles Coughlin. His sermons evolved into a darker message of anti-Semitism and fascism, and he became a defender of Hitler and Mussolini.” The researchers note, “O’Reilly is a heavier and less-nuanced user of the propaganda devices than Coughlin.”

    "The situation in that country will probably improve."
    "Whether we pull out in one month, one year or one century, there will still be a civil war going on in that country !"

    Posted by: at May 2, 2007 11:02 PM


    anonyloon, aren't these 2 statements made by you a little conflicting?
    Posted by: royalking at May 3, 2007 12:18 AM

    I know your little mind can't handle two thoughts at once...but the violence would lessen but not disappear.
    The US presence fuels a lot of the anger and violence but the civil war will go on.
    Fox news has totally rotted out your brain.

    Jeff is like the site spec ed kid.

    Everyone knows it except him.

    I know your little mind can't handle two thoughts at once...but the violence would lessen but not disappear.
    The US presence fuels a lot of the anger and violence but the civil war will go on.
    Fox news has totally rotted out your brain.

    Posted by: at May 3, 2007 12:24 AM
    Jeff is like the site spec ed kid.

    Everyone knows it except him.

    Posted by: at May 3, 2007 12:39 AM
    LMAO! Liberalism is a mental disorder....lil mikey. You're not sly, just a coward, like cee said.

    That wasn't me Jeff...you're lying....again! I haven't posted as anything other than Mike, including anon in almost 2 months, and you have been wrong about it EVERY single time you've made the accusation.

    However, I do agree that you're the site special ed kid.

    Did Cee call me a coward?...I missed that...that doesn't sound like Cee....or are you just lying about that as well?

    "almost 2 months" What do you keep track on a calendar? LMAO! You are way off. If you only knew! Not surprised you missed cee's post.

    Jeff, I just went back and looked. How about YOU showing me where he called me a coward? I say you're lying...again. Cee is certainly wrong about some things..but he has more class than that...FAR more than you do!

    And oh yeah Jef...you do understand that Al Qeada had no proven presence in Iraq before the invasion now, don't you?

    I've been pretty well locked into a state of perpetual PMS for awhile, starting at age 14, when I discovered that God was not cooperating and was unlikely to let me be in charge when I grew up.

    Consequently, I spend time at OW reading posts and thinking about how I could have written better, and that by all rights, I should write all the posts here and wishing that daddy Bob hadn't been so busy with "those other people" that he didn't have time to listen to me read the poetry I writes alone in my room, nor to tell me all those other girls "are just jealous"....

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 1, 2007 10:16 PM

    No, Cecelia, I'm still a man, and you're still surreptitiously bearing your soul.

    ...and Cee just hates anyone who's smarter than him. Just ask craigs. Don't be so bitter, Cee, cheer up. After all, we are 'winning' the war in Iraq, right?

    And oh yeah Jef...you do understand that Al Qeada had no proven presence in Iraq before the invasion now, don't you?

    Posted by: Mike at May 3, 2007 1:39 AM
    CJ debunked your little lie, forgot already?

    Not at all Jeff, I think you need to go back and read that little exchange again. I proved the point. Everything I posted was true and 100% verifiable...it just didn't match your childish notions.

    Now...about Cee calling me a 'coward'...show me where he did that?...liar!

    I've been pretty well locked into a state of perpetual PMS for awhile, starting at age 14, when I discovered that God was not cooperating and was unlikely to let me be in charge when I grew up.

    Consequently, I spend time at OW reading posts and thinking about how I could have written better, and that by all rights, I should write all the posts here and wishing that daddy Bob hadn't been so busy with "those other people" that he didn't have time to listen to me read the poetry I writes alone in my room, nor to tell me all those other girls "are just jealous"....

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 1, 2007 10:16 PM

    No, Cecelia, I'm still a man, and you're still surreptitiously bearing your soul.

    ...and Cee just hates anyone who's smarter than him. Just ask craigs. Don't be so bitter, Cee, cheer up. After all, we are 'winning' the war in Iraq, right?

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 1:44 AM

    I doubt there's a soul here who didn't envision you posed and waiting for tonight's recap in order to tell us off. We wondered how long you'd wait. :D

    "And oh yeah Jef...you do understand that Al Qeada had no proven presence in Iraq before the invasion now, don't you?"

    Al Qaeda's #2 guy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, met with Iraqi officials multiple times during Saddam's regime, and was given hundreds of thousands of dollars. When high ranking Al Qaeda member, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was injured in Afghanistan, he ran to Saddam's Iraq for help, and got it.

    I doubt there's a soul here who didn't envision you posed and waiting for tonight's recap in order to tell us off. We wondered how long you'd wait. :D

    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 2:19 AM
    And the loons say we are obsessed, they are the ones making the snide comments about Ed not being fast enough with the recap.

    >One of the best ways to vet one's beliefs is to see the type of person who objects to them the most lustily.

    Actually, I was thinking the same thing about your response to my post.

    Cee: Unintended Irony Made Fresh Daily

    lmao, do play the "male" role in your domestic partnership?

    We wondered how long you'd wait. :D
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 2:19 AM

    You post that, and you think I was the one waiting!?!?! Sounds like someone missed me!

    BTW, you're not doing yourself any favors ridding yourself of the 'lockstep' tag when you speak for the group, Cecelia.


    One of the best ways to vet one's beliefs is to see the type of person who objects to them the most lustily.

    Actually, I was thinking the same thing about your response to my post.

    Cee: Unintended Irony Made Fresh Daily

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 2:33 AM


    Not to mention-- said first daily...

    lmao, do play the "male" role in your domestic partnership?
    Posted by: royalking at May 3, 2007 2:36 AM

    Do you play the 'heffer' role when you are out in the barn with the bulls?

    Not to mention-- said first daily...
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 2:43 AM

    'Said?' Are you hearing my voice in your head? You really need to try some sleep medication. I hear Lunesta is pretty good.

    More unintended irony...Out of me, you, and jeff, I'm the ONLY one that DOESN'T post every day.

    lmao, I was asking you a serious question. Are you too ashamed to answer?

    lmao, I was asking you a serious question. Are you too ashamed to answer?
    Posted by: royalking at May 3, 2007 2:46 AM

    I was asking YOU a serious question too....

    Are YOU too ashamed to answer?

    lmao, why is that gays are ashamed of their orientation?

    'Said?' Are you hearing my voice in your head? You really need to try some sleep medication. I hear Lunesta is pretty good.

    More unintended irony...Out of me, you, and jeff, I'm the ONLY one that DOESN'T post every day.

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 2:46 AM

    I guess you're waiting unttil Cee says it first.

    >lmao, why is that gays are ashamed of their orientation?
    Posted by: royalking at May 3, 2007 2:50 AM

    I don't know, why don't you ask one.

    Why are you afraid to admit you have sex with your farm animals? Oh yeah, it's still illegal in California. Maybe you can propose a new proposition or something...

    I was asking one, you!

    Cecelia, I know you are so self-loathing that you hate all women.

    And Jeff, I know you hate women because no woman but Cecelia has ever even addressed you directly.

    But you two are just gonna have to hate me for something else, because a woman I ain't!

    But I am still laughing my ass off at your vain attempts at stereotyping, pigeon-holing, and broad-brushing.

    Keep trying, you'll get there eventually...

    I was asking one, you!

    Posted by: royalking at May 3, 2007 2:55 AM


    Actually, she was thinking the same thing when she read your proposition.

    LMAO-- New proposition made old daily...

    When did I say you are a woman?

    But I am still laughing my ass off at your vain attempts at stereotyping, pigeon-holing, and broad-brushing.

    Keep trying, you'll get there eventually...

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 2:58 AM


    LMAO against vain attempts at stereotyping, pigenholing and broad-brushing... get your fresh irony right here!.. :D

    >When did I say you are a woman?
    Posted by: royalking at May 3, 2007 2:59 AM

    Okay, so you're unusually interested in the sexual roles of gay men?

    Wow......

    I'm sure you can find some books in your local library or something.

    Sorry, I can't help you.

    >LMAO against vain attempts at stereotyping, pigenholing and broad-brushing... get your fresh irony right here!.. :D
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 3:03 AM

    C'mon Cecelia, you know me better than that. I actually use people's own words against them. I don't ASSUME anything.

    You wrote the PMS, Poetry, Daddy Bob stuff.

    You wear your prejudice on your sleeve....

    Not to mention all over your face!

    After all, you were the one who 'puuurrrred' to Rush Limbaugh's sentiment that woman are just smart enough to know they can't feed themselves.

    Shall I copy and paste it for you?

    Do you suffer from insomnia AND alzheimer's?

    My son's cat is smarter than you, because she does feed herself.

    Purrrrrrr!

    Laughing My Ass Off!

    Witty Retort? I'm waiting....

    LMAO against vain attempts at stereotyping, pigenholing and broad-brushing... get your fresh irony right here!.. :D
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 3:03 AM

    C'mon Cecelia, you know me better than that. I actually use people's own words against them. I don't ASSUME anything.

    You wrote the PMS, Poetry, Daddy Bob stuff.

    You wear your prejudice on your sleeve....

    Not to mention all over your face!

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:06 AM


    Assmptions? You've done a great job of narrowing down your reasons for being here yourself.

    After all, you were the one who 'puuurrrred' to Rush Limbaugh's sentiment that woman are just smart enough to know they can't feed themselves.

    Shall I copy and paste it for you?

    Do you suffer from insomnia AND alzheimer's?

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:09 AM


    And goodness knows we women would all feel alike and respond alike about that...

    >Assmptions? You've done a great job of narrowing down your reasons for being here yourself.
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 3:15 AM

    I'm here to mock you and amuse myself.

    Don't believe me? Don't care.

    You watch Countdown and think about Keith Olbermann a whole helluva lot more than I do.

    Why is it you think I'm a female again? It's not that I want to rub your nose in your wrongness. That's never done any good, you just keep squeezing out your fallacies left and right.

    I just want everyone here to see how you use your prejuduce to reach your inaccurate conclusions.

    C'mon, walk me through it one more time...

    I'm here to mock you and amuse myself.

    Don't believe me? Don't care.

    You watch Countdown and think about Keith Olbermann a whole helluva lot more than I do.

    Why is it you think I'm a female again? It's not that I want to rub your nose in your wrongness. That's never done any good, you just keep squeezing out your fallacies left and right.

    I just want everyone here to see how you use your prejuduce to reach your inaccurate conclusions.

    C'mon, walk me through it one more time...

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:22 AM


    In other words... "I'm here because I hate Bob"... we've seen here before and we'll see you in a new reincarnation in the future I'm sure.

    And goodness knows we women would all feel alike and respond alike about that...
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 3:18 AM

    Nice try...

    No, it's perfectly normal for a woman to hop on board with someone who insults their gender. Didn't take being called 'too stupid to feed themself' an insult? Why am I not surprised...

    I would guess some women are glad to be women, and some women are self-loathing creatures such as yourself.

    You're off your game tonight Cecelia. I expect more. Not a lot more, but a little...

    Did Mike enter his fugue state again?

    Nice try...

    No, it's perfectly normal for a woman to hop on board with someone who insults their gender. Didn't take being called 'too stupid to feed themself' an insult? Why am I not surprised...

    I would guess some women are glad to be women, and some women are self-loathing creatures such as yourself.

    You're off your game tonight Cecelia. I expect more. Not a lot more, but a little...

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:27 AM


    Shouldn't you just get a post script that says I'm off my game in some way, along with the LMAO thing? Save time.

    >In other words... "I'm here because I hate Bob"... we've seen here before and we'll see you in a new reincarnation in the future I'm sure.
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 3:25 AM

    You didn't walk me through why you think I'm a woman....Not surprised.

    I don't hate Bob! What's to hate? He's an easy target and so are you. I actually don't hate anyone. Even you...

    More words you try to put in my mouth.

    Explain again why you think I'm female...C'mon, in your own words...

    >Shouldn't you just get a post script that says I'm off my game in some way, along with the LMAO thing? Save time.
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 3:30 AM

    That's actually the first time I've written it.

    Are you having a deja vu or something?

    Just for a mental exercise attribute Limbaugh's statement to any man of equal or greater wealth...and then you can at least accuratetly chide me for making a joke about playing the fool for a rich guy.

    Not that I'll take that seriously either, girlfriend.

    My son's cat is smarter than you, because she does feed herself.

    Purrrrrrr!

    Laughing My Ass Off!

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:10 AM
    Does your ex-wife still let you see your kids?

    So you're a fool AND you're poor....?

    So Sorry.

    I should've taken my momma's advice:

    Never argue with a self-loathing insomniac after midnight.

    Laughing My Ass Off to Sleep...

    Sleep Tight Cecelia, I know you won't...

    That's actually the first time I've written it.

    Are you having a deja vu or something?

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:32 AM


    Already reinventing yourself.

    So you're a fool AND you're poor....?

    So Sorry.

    I should've taken my momma's advice:

    Never argue with a self-loathing insomniac after midnight.

    Laughing My Ass Off to Sleep...

    Sleep Tight Cecelia, I know you won't...

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:36 AM


    Evidently you're mama didn't like talking to you either.

    >Does your ex-wife still let you see your kids?
    Posted by: royalking at May 3, 2007 3:35 AM

    Happily married for 10 years and still going strong....

    Have any other fallacious scenarios to paint in a vain attempt to mischaracterize me?

    I'm an Olbyloon, I'm a Leftist, I'm Gay, I'm a Woman, I'm Divorced, I'm Mike....

    No...I'm worse than all that....(for you)

    I'm a married white male conservative that thinks your efforts here are laughable.

    When I'm gone, Jeff and Cecelia will have nothing to talk about other than how much they hate Keith Olbermann.

    Have at it.....

    >Already reinventing yourself.
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 3, 2007 3:36 AM

    Correction:

    Paranoid Self-Loathing Insomniac

    Wife of 10 years and two businesses to boot!

    When I'm gone, Jeff and Cecelia will have nothing to talk about other than how much they hate Keith Olbermann.

    Have at it.....

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:43 AM


    I forsee posts from ROTFLMAO in our future...

    Correction:

    Paranoid Self-Loathing Insomniac

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:45 AM


    No, you've done that. Try angry teenager from South Central LA or something, next time.

    No, LMAO, unlike those pseudointellectuals (like you) who come to sites like OW to have their EGO pleasured, I actually participate with the intention of traversing novel debate.....I have been sorely disappointed the last several weeks, however.

    The boilerplate responses, like those I received from you, craigs and Mike as of late, bore me. Although I have no idea from any exchange whether I am at a intellectual disadvantage, I have learned from your responses that the goal of most responders from the indeological left of me tend to be motivated from below the equator (a pissing contest).

    And Sheriden (craigs)....read my post....I said to Mike, "your wanting to look backwards through your myopic lense is just a waste of my time and bandwidth....We disagree about what has occurred and who is responsible....I am willing to leave it at that."

    You may not like my defense of the administration's actions in the past....but that is the point....I could look backwards on any previous administration and claim incompetence....its called armchair Quarterbacking and it is meaningless. Furthermore, in today's America, such discussions pass for intellectual prowess and that is a sham. Using vindictive language, unsing insults and being emotional over a review of historical events leaves one vulnurable to hubris, something I avoid at all costs.....

    How about you, Sheriden?

    Learning from the past and logically applying those lessons to future behavior, humbly and methodically, is not what is displayed by the left on this board.

    So, I look to today and forward...on principle and based on what is right and wrong....Not what will make my life easier or make me feel good. Bush is doing exactly that....he could back down to the pressure from the left and the polls and abandon his CONSISTENT principles like standing by the moderate Iraqis in the face of terrorist attack....but he will not.....and the GREAT reality is (because it burns the left in their butt) that until he is removed from office OR not given the funds to run his policy, he will continue to do the right thing....I respect that over the finger-in-the-wind vision of the left.

    You can't handle the truth that your ruling elite is not displaying leadership but consumerism. If they were really leading, they would have not passed any funding for the war in Iraq and we would have a crisis of principle between the executive and representative branches. That would be a GOOD thing for this country and finally resolve the polarization that has continued and grown between left and right since the Vietnam conflict.

    Too bad the left is not willing to stand by their prinicples. The Democrats want the easy way out!

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    Democrats Back Down On Iraq Timetable

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/02/AR2007050201517_pf.html

    "Democratic leaders have resigned themselves to losing many of the liberals they worked hard to bring on board the first bill. Sen. Russell Feingold (Wis.), a leading Senate war opponent who helped to build Democratic consensus in the first round, said he will vote against the second version unless it includes 'a binding approach to ending the war.' Feingold is seeking a vote on legislation he co-sponsored with Reid to cut off war funding on March 31, 2008. But he added: 'I'm willing to listen to other ideas.'"


    ###
    Why Sheridan, LMAO, Mike? People are dying for no good reason according to Mr. Feingold.....Why would he (or any Democrat of "principle") allow their leaders and party back down from President Bush over what they see as such a horrible mistake? They have constitutional powers.....The Democratic majority have HUGE constitutional powers yet they refuse to use them.....Why?

    You know my answer....What do you think?

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    When I'm gone, Jeff and Cecelia will have nothing to talk about other than how much they hate Keith Olbermann.

    Have at it.....

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 3:43 AM
    LAMO, I can't speak for Cecelia, but, I have never said I hate Ulbermahn. I do hate the fact he is a liar, though.

    >>>>>You can't handle the truth that your ruling elite is not displaying leadership but consumerism. If they were really leading, they would have not passed any funding for the war in Iraq and we would have a crisis of principle between the executive and representative branches. That would be a GOOD thing for this country and finally resolve the polarization that has continued and grown between left and right since the Vietnam conflict.

    Too bad the left is not willing to stand by their prinicples. The Democrats want the easy way out!>>>>

    Cee, I really agree with a lot of what you have written as to what is happening politically. And the issue of Iraq is so complicated and opaque right now that a lot of interpretations are possible, so no real quibble there either. I would disagree on two major points domestically.

    First, I see what is going on right now at the end of this, regardless of what both sides present publicly, as a negotiation where the broad terms of the debate have already been agreed upon. Just like at the start of it. The broad agreement then was that something should be done about Saddam (including invasion) and the broad agreement now is that full scale occupation should end soon. The Republicans want it ended too, but they want to force the Dems to end it unilaterally, and the Dems want the Repubs to drop the bluster and share the responsibility. It is the exact mirror situation of the vote to authorize force at the start, a vote that was technically unneccesary but politically usefull.

    Only if you believe the cable news stereotype of the Democratic party do you think "sticking to their principles" means forcing an executive-legislative stalemate that actually leaves troops in the field without full funding. Contrary to your insinuation, many if not most of us think that while an occupation is now a strategic liability, the redeployment needs to be orderly and well thought out, and that this consideration is as important as ending or remediating the strategic liability.

    "between the executive and representative branches."

    Why does this new formulation not surprise me?

    VOK:

    According to what the Democratic leadership has said for the past 4 months....

    The consequences of the Bush policy are far worse than pulling the troops out of Iraq.

    So, logic dictates....the troops should be taken out.

    How does the Democratic leadership accomplish this? Like I said in January....the constitution only gives them a few options.....

    Removing the executive from power through impeachment charges and a Senate trial.

    Refusing the executive's appropriation requests.

    Anything else is political gamesmanship and foolish.

    I have a lot more respect for someone willing to risk their "political stock" (Bush has and he continues to do so) for their principles than someone with their finger in the air and not continuing to follow their rhetoric to its logical conclusions.

    Bush would be forced to withdraw the troops if there was no money to sustain the operation. He would have no choice but to obey the constitutional influence of the people's representatives.

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "Anything else is political gamesmanship and foolish."

    Political gamemanship? Yes. Foolish? No. Neither was it foolish for those favoring invasion to try and get those generally not to nonetheless cast a vote that would support it and bring them on board in some sense. If it hadn't been for that vote, we would be much more divided today than we are. And if what you are suggesting, that the Democrats stick to their guns and defund troops in the field, it would force such a precipitous withdrawal that it would amount to helter-skelter fleeing and potentially undo whatever good has been done. Why would this be respectable? Just because it is less "political?" Just because it would be in Republican's political interest?

    The point of our system of governance is not to produce strong principled people who you can respect as a hero. Occassionally that happens, but it ain't the point. It is to gradually crystalize the general wisdom of a nation. That process is messy and sloppy and sometimes even looks irrational. But above all it keeps us together. Forcing Republicans to solely own the invasion and Democrats to soley own redeployment is not a recipe for unity or overcoming polarization. Quite the opposite. It isn't even a mildly accurate representation of the nation. Why would you find this either respectable or a good idea?

    Why would you find this either respectable or a good idea?

    Because we are supposed to be a nation, a people governed by laws, not men and women who manipulate opinion then claim they are doing what the people want.

    The executive was given 4 years and many enumrated powers for a reason. To have The Speaker of The House of Represenatives claim President Bush is thwarting the will of the people when he exercises his constitutional powers is wrong. And if President Bush did anything beyond his enumerated powers to fund the war after the majority of the legislature deemed it not correct to fund, I would be the first to endorse impeachment proceedings.

    Why not have one party "own" the winning outcome?....Both sides say they are right and should have the will and confidence as leaders to stand by their predictions.

    I see posts here and TV commentators (Olbermann) wax indignant, insult and call a criminal the President of The United States....I am to assume this is just bluster and the real intent of these partisans is to "gradually crystalize the general wisdom of a nation?" I am not that naive.

    No, VOK, the behavior of the left in this current crisis is not to arrive at a solution dervied from wisdom. If it was then they would be using the proper tools given to them by the founders to execute a policy they thought was right for the country. I would accept it as a law-abiding American even though I disagree with it.

    But as long as political hate speech, sound-bite techniques and inuendo are being used as the primary tools to shape policy, then the mess will continue. A war needs leaders not making decisions based on press polls.....especially when the polls have a majority of people agreeing with nonconstitutional remedies for the crisis at hand.

    "I see posts here and TV commentators (Olbermann) wax indignant, insult and call a criminal the President of The United States....I am to assume this is just bluster and the real intent of these partisans is to "gradually crystalize the general wisdom of a nation?" I am not that naive."

    Good lord. If you think the general sentiments here and on cable news-- which is paid to create controversy and division-- represent the general consensus or any kind of median, then you are indeed naive. These things represent the extremes.

    "Why not have one party "own" the winning outcome?"

    Why not? Because it's phony, and because that is a recipe for division. One party didn't start this war. One party didn't fight it. It wasn't for the good of one party. It was for the good of the country. We are in it together. Why do you prefer it otherwise? Why do you counsel us to divide? American politics is full of lies and compromises and blustering and posturing and you throw it all in a kettle and in the end, the general wisom comes out. If you don't believe that, then perhaps you don't believe in America.

    Your approach is that of a theoretical purist, and it ends in bad places...like almost literally telling the troops to drop their guns and run for the Turkish border, because that would be more politically "honorable" and noble. That isn't better in any sense but one very simple and ultimately very meaningless one.

    "...especially when the polls have a majority of people agreeing with nonconstitutional remedies for the crisis at hand."

    I'm not aware of what you are referring to here.

    "...especially when the polls have a majority of people agreeing with nonconstitutional remedies for the crisis at hand."

    I'm not aware of what you are referring to here.



    "Most Americans back Democrats in Congress in their showdown with President Bush over Iraq, according to a CBS News/New York Times poll.

    "Sixty-four percent of those surveyed favor setting a timetable for a U.S. troop pullout by 2008. The Senate passed legislation Thursday that would require the withdrawal of U.S. forces to begin by Oct. 1.

    "Most also believe Congress, not the president, should have the final word on setting troop levels in Iraq. But they do not want Democrats to cut off funding for the war if the president is unwilling to agree on a timetable."

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/26/opinion/polls/main2731960.shtml


    ###
    This remedy flies in the face of that constitutional powers are granted to the specific branch.

    Lenny,

    I don't have time to respond to all of your points just yet(i'll get to them this evening) but I did want to jump in on the following statement:

    "The executive was given 4 years and many enumrated powers for a reason. To have The Speaker of The House of Represenatives claim President Bush is thwarting the will of the people when he exercises his constitutional powers is wrong."

    My problem with this statement is that if The pols say people want a timetable and Bush vetoes such legislation, he IS THWARTING the will of the people. it is an accuarate statmeent.

    No one is suggesting Bush doesn't have the power to do so. We're a Republic and his veto is certainly a legal right, but that doesn't mean he isn't subject to critisism for when he chooses to exercise those rights.

    Gotcha. Thanks Cee. I think what you have to remember is that polls make no literal sense, they only general guage sentiment. I think what respondants to that poll are saying is simply that they trust congress' judgement better than Bush's and would be happier if congress was somehow setting troop levels. If you simply added "even though this would be unconstitutional," thereby making it literal and implying a systemic change in order to accomplish that, I bet the response would go down to the teens or so.

    "But they do not want Democrats to cut off funding for the war if the president is unwilling to agree on a timetable."

    But you do. Because you think the Democrats really favor dropping our guns, screaming, and running for the border. Because you saw that on cable tv or something?

    Sheridan,

    The decisions regarding certain national policies were/are insulated from the whims of the masses for a reason.....the masses were/are frequently wrong. Thank God we have a 4-year executive that is insulated from the silliness of people like you.

    Bush was re-elected in 2004 saying the very same things he is saying today and he is right to continue supporting the fledgling government in Iraq until it is able to protect itself from the very groups of terrorists that attacked us on 9/11.

    Call him all the names you want, Sheridan....my whole argument is that the only two ways to properly stop him is to remove him from office or cut his funds. You don't seem to want to understand this very simple idea.....nor does your ruling elite....to their defeat in getting the troops home.

    Nancy Pelosi....if she really believes the American people want our troops out of Iraq now, should be using her constitutional powers and simply not grant funds to the war in Iraq. NO FUNDS. She has that power as a congresswoman with a majority of her party in control....Why is she passing legislation allowing US Troops to continue to fight a war she (and you) have called lost/immoral/based on lies/etc?

    The constitution is specific on appropriations.....The House of Representatives intitiates ALL federal budget expeditures.

    Why are the Democrats funding the war in Iraq?

    I don't know why I am asking this again, for the nth time.....you probaly will not answer it honestly.

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    "my whole argument is that the only two ways to properly stop him is to remove him from office or cut his funds."

    Er, how about making a compromise that redeploys our troops in a way that enhances our national security and international standing instead of totally destroying it? In other words, do exactly what both branches are in the process of doing, while giving themselves political cover from hysterical partisans. Isn't that a somewhat better option? Or do you prefer to chop the baby in half, cee?


    "The decisions regarding certain national policies were/are insulated from the whims of the masses for a reason.....the masses were/are frequently wrong."

    Lenny in order to have a proper debate one must make the effort to comprehend the opposing arguement. You frequently neglect to do this. Although
    I do in fact think the american peole are correct in their feelings about the war.

    I actually said nothing regarding this AT ALL! My point was in response to your statement that Pelosi is somehow wrong for saying the president is defying the will of the American people. again: HE IS DEFYING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. it is an accurate statement! Whether he is right in doing so or not is another debate entirely. you have provided no valid reason to suggest why Pelosi shouldn't make accurate statements about Bush's actions.

    "Why are the Democrats funding the war in Iraq?"

    Well, that depends on the Democrat. Some ARE for cutting funds right now. (I believe Feingold falls in that camp). Some believe it is better to have an orderly withdrawl if certain benchmarks are not met (Webb I beleive). Some perhaps have other reasons. We don't practice groupthink Lenny so there is not just one reason.

    >No, LMAO, unlike those pseudointellectuals (like you) who come to sites like OW to have their EGO pleasured, I actually participate with the intention of traversing novel debate.....I have been sorely disappointed the last several weeks, however.

    Pseudointellectual? Ouch. Coming from someone who can't help but slobber all over his keyboard during long tirades against people he THINKS are liberals, I'll take that as a compliment.

    Well, I was smart enough to know that invading and occupying Iraq was a bad idea BEFORE we did it. So, if that makes me 'Fake Smart' and guess that makes you 'Real Dumb.'

    I don't come here to have my 'Ego Pleasured.' I come here to knock Wrong-Headed Arrogant Bastards like you down a few notches.

    Keep responding to my posts instead of 'traversing novel debate' and I'll know it's 'Mission Accomplished.'

    "I don't come here to have my 'Ego Pleasured.' I come here to knock Wrong-Headed Arrogant Bastards like you down a few notches."

    Posted by: LMAO at May 3, 2007 7:10 PM\

    What an interesting claim by someone who spends hours vetting posts and then responding to them. Oh my....dear LMAO and Sheridan....narcissism and hubris is indeed the inevitable pitfall of your world-view and I do enjoy seeing you scream at many from the depths....just like Mr. Olbermann.

    Oh.....and LMAO, it is very clear you assume when I say world-view I mean, "liberal," or "conservative." In fact, you believe you are so clever in saying people assume you are liberal (BTW, I always uses left or right in my POLITICAL bias discussions but you seem to miss that nuance as well). You are guilty of the very thing you laugh your ass off about with regard to other posters.

    No, No....world-view has a much more psychic definition in my discussions compared to your simple-minded political drool. If you would like to know my world-view and see it counter another typical religious fanatic from your realm, feel free to search the archive for discussions I had with a nice poster, Colbert....I named him OZ.

    Just like you, he metaphorically hid behind that childish curtain frantically pulling levers trying to create an image of himself grander than he really was....Just like you but at least he had with much more intellectual discipline and comic flair....You are a poor substitute but I will still consider you OZ Jr. from now on.

    So, OZ Jr....please join Sheridan, Sir Loin of Milquetoast and the rest of those who KNOW they are better than the other guy and continue your prideful posts. It's easy to know where you are coming from based on your attitude. Your self-hatred is also evident in your rants aganst "hot-air," and "wrong-headed arrogant bastards," another common component of the poor lost soul who is ranting from the secluded depths or his/her own making. Olbermann is a good role model for you if you want to improve your comedic abilities.

    Oh, and thank you VOK for your measured and cogent responses. I enjoyed them immensely.

    cee

    "I'd tell you that the Democrats are talking a good game, but they're not even doing that. Everybody in Congress has to understand something: If they continue to fund this war, it's not just the President who owns it. They own it, too." Sgt. Liam Madden

    "Lefties: Leave these pathetic drowning rats alone to stew in each other's juices. Get yourselves out in the street and fight this criminal administration in ways that really mean something, and that are noted by more than a handful of keyboard heroes!" Sir Loin of Beef

    A compromise would be chopping the baby in half, VOK...giving each side some of what they want for their own selfish, political purposes to save face. No, each side wants a "live baby" and they believe their way is the way to achieve it.

    We'll have to simply agree to disagree with regards to the America's role in Iraq, but I see it just like South Korea....if the Iraq government continues and is successful we need to be there until it is clear they will not be overthrown by radical elements inside Iraq and from outside by Iran or Al Queda. The surge deserves time and if in September, Genreral Petraeus says there has been progress, full support should continue from the congress WITHOUT unconstitutional attempts to subvert the executive. If the left wants out, they should simply stop funding the effort....Bush would be forced to stop the policy legally and I am sure The Pentagon has a contigency in place for an orderly and safe redeployment in such a circumstance. They are professionals, after all.

    The King Soloman analogy only applies to saving face domestically....it has no real world good result for the fight against terrorism or the help we are giving to the moderate majority in Iraq. Both Bush and his opponents are saying, "Don't kill the baby by cutting it in half!"

    Constitutionally, they have their options to fulfill their wishes for the next 17 months and then the American people can change the executive via the 2008 election if they so desire.

    "No, each side wants a "live baby" and they believe their way is the way to achieve it."

    Well, they are both wrong, if you are characterizing the one position as open-ended occupation without strings, and the other as immediate withdrawal without influence. I think that characterization of each side-- even though I understand that is what they in effect SAY-- is wrong.

    "We'll have to simply agree to disagree with regards to the America's role in Iraq, but I see it just like South Korea....if the Iraq government continues and is successful we need to be there until it is clear they will not be overthrown by radical elements inside Iraq and from outside by Iran or Al Queda."

    That's not an unrespectable position. But I think it is an unrealistic position and analogy. The unrealistic analogies that began this war were the occupations of Japan and Germany after WWII. When those proved totally inapplicable, we lowered our sights. We are constantly lowering them and looking for a similar analagous situation so we can declare some sort of victory. But the realities follow us down.

    Liking it to the korean conflict is a lowering, but abstracts from the fact that this was a contest between two discernable sides, fought to a stalemate, and then the country was divided in two and we occupied the part we controlled, mostly simply in support of an existing, motivated, friendly military and a border guarantee. Pulling out to the Kurdish north and guaranteeing their government and borders would be the rough equivalent here. And just as North Korea was attached to China and ultimately became it's insane little brother, South Iraq would then be attached to Iran, perhaps with similar results.

    In reality Iraq is so much more complicated and unique I don't think any analogy can hold. I thnk greatest challenge and incoherance on the "surge and stay the course" side is in trying to define friend and enemy. You say we are on the side of the "moderates" against the "radicals." Well who are those? They change all the time. We train the police all day, and then they go home at night and the next morning there are 48 bodies scattered around four cities. Were those bodies friends? Enemies? Al Qaeda? Neutrals? We don't know.

    The fact is, this is just a shifting patchwork of tribal and religious alliances, with some Al Qaeda and foreign terrorists mixed in to make things more explosive. This is not manageable. There is no solid, pan-Iraqi middle. The troops we are training still maintain their allegiance first and foremost to tribal roots, that show themselves when push comes to shove. There is no single group to defeat. There is no one to surrender to or declare victory over. There is no one "side" you can hope will win. All you can hope for is some partitioned ballance of power to materialize out of this backwards tribal hurricane whereby sh-tes and Sunnis, be they moderate or radical, learn to hate and fight Al Qaeda for their own reasons, not ours. That could still happen, but it won't be because we continue to occupy Iraq. In fact, I think that is delaying such a possibilitiy. And no matter what we do at this point, Iran is going to be in a stronger position when we are done.

    "if the Iraq government continues and is successful we need to be there..."

    You mean we ought to have some kind of benchmarks upon which our continued participation depends? Like they need to pass an oil sharing plan instead of taking the summer off, or we pull out support? Maybe someone should suggest that to congress or the president or something.

    I am a big believer in personal incentive. The current open-ended no-strings attached committment is turning our friends into long-term welfare dependents while strengthening and creating more enemies for them. It is a long term recipe for disaster. The conflict between the Democrats and the president going on right now is the first real pressure the Iraqi government has felt. It's allowing us to play good-cop bad-cop with them. Your approach, which is all-or-nothing, for the sake of some rhetorical political honor and cleanliness, does indeed look to be a baby-slicing to me.

    We need a compromise here.

    What an interesting claim by someone who spends hours vetting posts and then responding to them. Oh my....dear LMAO and Sheridan....narcissism and hubris is indeed the inevitable pitfall of your world-view and I do enjoy seeing you scream at many from the depths....just like Mr. Olbermann.Oh.....and LMAO, it is very clear you assume when I say world-view I mean, "liberal," or "conservative." In fact, you believe you are so clever in saying people assume you are liberal (BTW, I always uses left or right in my POLITICAL bias discussions but you seem to miss that nuance as well). You are guilty of the very thing you laugh your ass off about with regard to other posters.No, No....world-view has a much more psychic definition in my discussions compared to your simple-minded political drool. If you would like to know my world-view and see it counter another typical religious fanatic from your realm, feel free to search the archive for discussions I had with a nice poster, Colbert....I named him OZ.Just like you, he metaphorically hid behind that childish curtain frantically pulling levers trying to create an image of himself grander than he really was....Just like you but at least he had with much more intellectual discipline and comic flair....You are a poor substitute but I will still consider you OZ Jr. from now on.So, OZ Jr....please join Sheridan, Sir Loin of Milquetoast and the rest of those who KNOW they are better than the other guy and continue your prideful posts. It's easy to know where you are coming from based on your attitude. Your self-hatred is also evident in your rants aganst "hot-air," and "wrong-headed arrogant bastards," another common component of the poor lost soul who is ranting from the secluded depths or his/her own making. Olbermann is a good role model for you if you want to improve your comedic abilities.

    =

    Mission Accomplished.

    Cee, you've already spent more time, energy, and what precious few brain cells you have left thinking about me, writing about me, and drooling over me than I EVER will about you.

    "...world-view has a much more psychic definition in my discussions compared to your simple-minded political drool."

    No, that doesn't sound arrogant.

    Psychic definition? Oh give me a break. I don't even think you're dumb enough to believe what you write, let alone anyone else.

    You make up little pet names for your opponents, and you think I'm off my rocker?

    Uh, Okay, I feel compelled to live in the real world, but take one of the little pink round ones, and a couple of the light green capsules for me, would ya.

    Great Thanks!

    (Borrowed from KO, my 'psychic' twin, if not my political or ideological one)

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