Buy Text-Link-Ads here
Recent Comments

    follow OlbyWatch on Twitter

    In

    John Gibson Welcomes Back the Infamous, Deplorable Keith Olbermann

    tonyome wrote: <a href="http://twitchy.com/2014/07/28/voxs-laughable-praise-of-keith-olber... [more](11)

    In

    Welcome Back, Olby!

    syvyn11 wrote: <a href="http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/keith-olbermann-reviving-worst... [more](9)

    In

    Former Obama Support/Donor Releases Song Supporting Romney/Ryan: "We'll Take It Back Again" by Kyle Tucker

    syvyn11 wrote: @philly I don't see that happening. ESPN has turned hyper left in recent... [more](64)

    In

    Blue-Blog-a-Palooza: Ann Romney Edition!

    djthereplay wrote: By mkdawuss on August 29, 2012 6:17 PM Will John Gibson be having a "Red-B... [more](4)

    In

    No Joy in Kosville...Mighty Olby Has Struck Out

    djwolf76 wrote: "But the FOX-GOP relationship (which is far more distinguished and prevalen... [more](23)

    KO Mini Blog



    What's in the Olbermann Flood Feed?
    Subscribe to Olbermann Flood Feed:
    RSS/XML

    KO Countdown Clock


    Warning: mktime() [function.mktime]: It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected 'America/New_York' for 'EDT/-4.0/DST' instead in /home/owatch/www/www.olbermannwatch.com/docs/countdown.php on line 5
    KO's new contract with MSNBC ends in...
    0 days 0 hours 0 minutes

    OlbermannWatch.com "My Faves" Set

    OlbermannWatch.com Favorited Photos from other Flickr Users

    Got OlbyPhotos? See some on Flickr? DO NOT email us. Send us a FlickrMail instead. Include a link to the photo. If we like the photo you will see it displayed in the Olby Flickr Flood above.

    New to Flickr? Sign up for a FREE Flickr account!


    Got some OlbyVideo? See some on YouTube? DO NOT email us. Send us a YouTube Messages instead. Include a link to the video. If we like the video you will see it displayed in our favorites list in our YouTube page.

    New to YouTube? Sign up for a FREE YouTube account!

    Red Meat Blog
    Keith Olbermann Quotes
    Countdown Staff Writers

    If they're not on Keith's payroll...

    ...they should be...

    Crooks & Liars
    Daily Kos
    Eschaton
    Huffington Post
    Media Matters for America
    MyDD
    News Corpse
    No Quarter
    Raw Story
    Talking Points Memo
    Think Progress
    TVNewser
    Keith Lovers

    MSNBC's Countdown
    Bloggerman
    MSNBC Transcripts
    MSNBC Group at MSN

    Drinking with Keith Olbermann
    Either Relevant or True
    KeithOlbermann.org
    Keith Olbermann is Evil
    Olbermann Nation
    Olbermann.org
    Thank You, Keith Olbermann

    Don't Be Such A Douche
    Eyes on Fox
    Liberal Talk Radio
    Oliver Willis
    Sweet Jesus I Hate Bill O'Reilly

    Anonymous Rat
    For This Relief Much Thanks
    Watching Olbermann Watch

    Keith Olbermann Fanlisting Site I
    Keith Olbermann Fanlisting Site II
    Keith Olbermann Links
    Olberfans
    Sports Center Altar
    Nothing for Everyone

    Democratic Underground KO Forum
    Television Without Pity KO Forum
    Loony KO Forum (old)
    Loony KO Forum (new)
    Olberfans Forum (old)
    Olberfans Forum (new)
    Keith Watchers

    186k per second
    Ace of Spades HQ
    Cable Gamer
    Dean's World
    Doug Ross@Journal
    Extreme Mortman
    Fire Keith Olbermann
    Hot Air
    Inside Cable News
    Instapundit
    Jawa Report
    Johnny Dollar's Place
    Just One Minute
    Little Green Footballs
    Mark Levin
    Media Research Center
    Moonbattery.com
    Moorelies
    National Review Media Blog
    Narcissistic Views
    Newsbusters
    Pat Campbell Show
    Radio Equalizer
    Rathergate
    Riehl World View
    Sister Toldjah
    Toys in the Attic
    Webloggin
    The Dark Side of Keith Olbermann
    World According to Carl

    Thanks for the blogroll link!

    Age of Treason
    Bane Rants
    The Blue Site
    Cabal of Doom-De Oppresso Libre
    Chuckoblog
    Conservative Blog Therapy
    Conservathink
    Country Store
    Does Anyone Agree?
    The Drunkablog!
    Eclipse Ramblings
    If I were President of USA
    I'll Lay Down My Glasses
    Instrumental Rationality
    JasonPye.com
    Kevin Dayhoff
    Last Train Out Of Hell
    Leaning Straight Up
    Limestone Roof
    Mein BlogoVault
    NostraBlogAss
    Peacerose Journal
    The Politics of CP
    Public Secrets: from the files of the Irishspy
    Rat Chat
    Return of the Conservatives
    The Right Place
    Rhymes with Right
    seanrobins.com
    Six Meat Buffet
    Sports and Stuff
    Stout Republican
    Stuck On Stupid
    Things I H8
    TruthGuys
    Verum Serum
    WildWeasel

    Friends of OlbyWatch

    Aaron Barnhart
    Eric Deggans
    Jason Clarke
    Ron Coleman
    Victria Zdrok
    Keith Resources

    Google News: Keith Olbermann
    Feedster: Keith Olbermann
    Technorati: Keith Olbermann
    Wikipedia: Keith Olbermann
    Wikipedia: Countdown
    Wikiality: Keith Olbermann
    Keith Olbermann Quotes on Jossip
    Keith Olbermann Photos
    NNDB Olbermann Page
    IMDB Olbermann Page
    Countdown Guest Listing & Transcripts
    Olbermann Watch FAQ
    List of Politics on Countdown (by party)
    Mark Levin's Keith Overbite Page
    Keith Olbermann's Diary at Daily Kos
    Olbermann Watch in the News

    Houston Chronicle
    Playboy
    The Journal News
    National Review
    San Antonio Express
    The Hollywood Reporter
    The Journal News
    Los Angeles Times
    American Journalism Review
    Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
    St. Petersburg Times
    Kansas City Star
    New York Post/Page Six
    Washington Post
    Associated Press
    PBS
    New York Daily News
    Online Journalism Review
    The Washingon Post
    Hartford Courant
    WTWP-AM
    The New York Observer
    The Washington Post


    Countdown with Keith Olbermann
    Great Moments in Broadcast Journalism
    Great Thanks Hall of Fame
    Keith Olbermann
    MSM KO Bandwagon
    Olbermann
    Olbermann Watch Channel on You Tube
    Olbermann Watch Debate
    Olbermann Watch Image Gallery
    Olbermann Watch Polling Service
    OlbermannWatch
    OlbyWatch Link Roundup
    TVNewser "Journalism"

    July 2013
    September 2012
    August 2012
    April 2012
    March 2012
    February 2012
    January 2012
    December 2011
    November 2011
    October 2011
    September 2011
    August 2011
    July 2011
    June 2011
    May 2011
    April 2011
    March 2011
    February 2011
    January 2011
    December 2010
    November 2010
    October 2010
    September 2010
    August 2010
    July 2010
    June 2010
    May 2010
    April 2010
    March 2010
    February 2010
    January 2010
    December 2009
    November 2009
    October 2009
    September 2009
    August 2009
    July 2009
    June 2009
    May 2009
    April 2009
    March 2009
    February 2009
    January 2009
    December 2008
    November 2008
    October 2008
    September 2008
    August 2008
    July 2008
    June 2008
    May 2008
    April 2008
    March 2008
    February 2008
    January 2008
    December 2007
    November 2007
    October 2007
    September 2007
    August 2007
    July 2007
    June 2007
    May 2007
    April 2007
    March 2007
    February 2007
    January 2007
    December 2006
    November 2006
    October 2006
    September 2006
    August 2006
    July 2006
    June 2006
    May 2006
    April 2006
    March 2006
    February 2006
    January 2006
    December 2005
    November 2005
    October 2005
    September 2005
    August 2005
    June 2005
    May 2005
    April 2005
    March 2005
    February 2005
    January 2005
    December 2004
    November 2004

    Google

    Olbermann Watch Masthead

    Managing Editor

    Robert Cox
    olby at olbywatch dot com

    Contributors

    Mark Koldys
    Johnny Dollar's Place

    Brandon Coates
    OlbyWatch

    Chris Matthews' Leg
    Chris Matthews' Leg

    Howard Mortman
    Extreme Mortman

    Trajan 75
    Think Progress Watch

    Konservo
    Konservo

    Doug Krile
    The Krile Files

    Teddy Schatz
    OlbyWatch

    David Lunde
    Lundesigns

    Alex Yuriev
    Zubrcom

    Red Meat
    OlbyWatch



    Technorati Links to OlbyWatchLinks to OlbermannWatch.com

    Technorati Links to OlbyWatch Blog posts tagged with "Olbermann"

    Combined Feed
    (OlbyWatch + KO Mini-blog)

    Who Links To Me


    Mailing List RSS Feed
    Google Groups
    Subscribe to Olbermann Watch Mailing List
    Email:
    Visit this group



    XML
    Add to Google
    Add to My Yahoo!
    Subscribe with Bloglines
    Subscribe in NewsGator Online

    Add to My AOL
    Subscribe with Pluck RSS reader
    R|Mail
    Simpify!
    Add to Technorati Favorites!

    Subscribe in myEarthlink
    Feed Button Help


    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    May 7, 2007
    Countdown with Keith Olbermann - May 7, 2007

    "COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN" (8:00 P.M.-9:00 P.M. ET)

    Host: Keith Olbermann

    Topics/Guests:

    • IRAQ WAR: John Copenhaver, fmr. FEMA regional director; Jonathan Alter, Newsweek senior editor
    • U.S. ATTORNEY SCANDAL: Rachel Maddow, Air America radio host
    • THE QUEENS VISITS THE WHITE HOUSE: Dana Milbank, Washington Post national political reporter

    Hm, apparently a repeat guest. News to me. Did you think he would mention that Copenhaver was an appointee of President Clinton? (Source) Of course he didn't. Lefty Alter for good measure. Attorney "Scandal" [Ding!] with the esteemed, non partisan Rachel Maddow of Err America who enjoys "arguing with conservatives." Shocker! (Source) The Hour of Spin was painfully typical. Hence why I went drinking.

    UPDATE: video & transcript below

    MADMAN

    The President "warned." The administration "screamed at." 12% of the Kansas National Guard still deployed in Iraq (that makes for 88% still there, by the way). Reminder of Katrina, connection to Iraq and to Olby, an out of touch President. How do all of these connect, do you ask? Well, by one tornado, of course! Do not think that I, or this site, am making light of the tragic devastation caused by the tornado in Greensburg. Rather, ask yourself, why is it that Fat Ass feels the need to connect the deaths of 10 people in Kansas to his extreme left views? Someway, somehow, it's the President's fault, because 88% of the National Guard is still in Kansas, that these people died. The Fuhrer declares that the war in Iraq has made us "less safe" at home and made the tornado damage worse. Keith then admits that it's really half the equipment that's in Iraq and not a personnel problem. That equipment is to haul debris away. How has not being able to haul debris as fast made us less safe, one wonders? Only OlbyPlanet has the answer to that. The equipment will not be completely "in stock" until four years after "Mister" Bush is out of office. Is there anything more disgraceful than using a natural disaster to further your political views? Mr. Copenhaver could not have been a better sock puppet. Does he think that the National Guard being deployed in Iraq create a "domino" effect and diminish FEMA's abilities? Obviously. Katrina mentioned again. Copenhaver "at a loss."

    Following up, somehow connected, oh right the National Guard, is the "abandon ship" that Republicans are suggesting vis a vis Iraq. Or so says Keith. Cue eyebrow raise.

    Olby revels in the Newsweek poll that suggests Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama would beat all Republican nominees. Enter Alter who, like EVERY other time he shows up, regurgitates Keith's talking points (which are blogger talking points) while pretending to do political analysis.

    #4: "Gonzo-Gate" [Ding!] with cute graphic. Attorney scandal [Ding!]. The scandal now is an attempt to deny Democrats the right to vote. Olbermahn conspiracy theories about Republicans trying to deny Democrats, minorities and so forth to vote. Adam's Apple Olbermann must have discerned this through the common known fact that Republicans hate all people who are not white. Rachel Maddow eats up Keith's question about whether or not Karl Rove was behind the so-called politicalization of the voting right's department at the Justice Department. Republicans can't win if "no one's cheating." Keith agrees and expands that by saying that Republicans are trying to end the two party system. Paranoia, anyone? Keith: Bradley Schlozman has a funny name that could have come from fiction - ha! There's a reason some people I know fall asleep when watching this show. Bad jokes could be it. More Republican bashing and conspiracy theories. As always, great thanks.

    #3: Herr Olbermann's love of baseball. Roger Clemens return to New York. Is it a good baseball move? Whoopee.

    #2: Paris Hilton. Cue pervert comment. She's grappling with a new kind of "pokey." Nice smirk on MonkeyMann's face. Any woman that he can make lewd remarks about is a godsend for Keith.

    #1: The state dinner. More "jokes" at the President's expense. Dana Milbank with a splashy white tie suit. "Nice threads." Laughing stagehand laughs (I was beginning to wonder where she went). Cute banter ensues. It wasn't a complete disaster says Milbank. Keith makes weird sexual comments about the President and the Queen. More stagehand laughing.

    In the Media Matters minute, some doctor for the bronze in the UK who made a misdiagnosis, Lou Dobbs earns the silver (Blue Blog source: ThinkProgress), and the gold goes to the Olbsession of the century, "Bill-O" (Blue Blog source: MediaMatters). Keith criticizes Bill for "insulting people" (what about all those women, Mr. Merlot?) and arguing that even though the university that did the "study" about O'Reilly insulting people got five million dollars from far-left billionaire George Soros, that doesn't matter. It's just coincidental and the university claims it was an unfunded study.

    NAME

    Olbermann's book The book that bears Olbermann's name crash landed at #5,526 at amazon.com, but "Culture Warrior" is #386. (It's that 2-for-$25 sale!) The OlbyTome went back to being embarrassingly unranked at Barnes & Noble; O'Reilly's book is #1,269 there, and is one of the top five books of 2006 per Publishers Weekly. Friday's Hour of Spin finished in the usual Olby third place. Although, "Man on Fan" Olbermann prefers that "money demo" that he's always hawking as definitive and absolute. Based on that, Friday's Hour of Spin was - oh wait - still third, in the critical, beloved, all-important, coveted "key demo." O'Reilly even had a subhost to boot. Tonight's MisterMeter reading: 4 [GUARDED]

    UPDATE: video & transcript

    Read the transcript to the Monday show


    Posted by Edward Schatz | Permalink | Comments (98) | | View blog reactions

    98 Comments

    Olby even finds a way to insert himself into a nothing story about Spider-Man 3 by mentioning that a former co-worker had a cameo as a news anchor. Was that "news" item supposed to accomplish anything other than being yet another of the thousands of ways that Mr. Insecure made himself the news?

    Oh look - Milbank is back in festive threads tonight.

    So President Bush is responsible for hurricanes and tornadoes, eh Keith? Wow. Talk about power. It was nice to see Keith finally talking about voter fraud. Oh wait, that's right. It's only when Republicans are involved. Silly me. Can't talk about Democrats disenfranchising military voters, can you Keith? Can't talk about the ACORN voter fraud scandal, can you Keith? Pretzels! Pretzels! Pretzels! Very funny Keith. Jay Leno and David Letterman better watch out. So Bill O'Reilly was "The Worst Person in the World" because he said that your friend George Soros gave $5 Million Dollars to Indiana University, which conducted a study bashing Bill O'Reilly. Which is true. George Soros did give $5 Million Dollars to Indiana University, which conducted a study bashing Bill O'Reilly. And Bill is in the wrong because...? Another amazing episode of "Countdown". I'm sure Edward R. Murrow would be proud.

    Olbermann, as well as his olbyloons have very low self asteems and are very insecure. That's why they hate capitalism, because they can't capitalize.

    He's Tanned! He's Rested! He's Ready!

    ESchatz is BACK! and READY TO RUMBLE!

    Johnny, come back to us! PLEASE!

    I am with Paul. I am shocked that R. Cox would let this kind of slacking so soon after the site returned to the internet and for some type of moving the Johnny Dollar is doing. There is no reason to delay the website like this at all! You are humiliating all that need to analyze the Countdown episode summaries and this slacking off i uncalled for.

    This is conduct unbecoming for the "#1" blog on Olbermann.

    ESchatz is BACK! and READY TO RUMBLE!

    He's Tanned! He's Rested! He's Ready!

    ESchatz is BACK! and READY TO RUMBLE!

    He's Tanned! He's Rested! He's Ready!

    ESchatz is BACK! and READY TO RUMBLE!

    I was just trying to help.

    How did I know he couldn't make it out of the bull pen, AGAIN!

    Maybe his tivo is broke.

    Maybe after watching Countdown he had to run out and start drinking.

    Maybe ESchatz is really a paid Soros nack.

    He's Tanned! He's Rested! He's Ready!
    ESchatz is BACK! and READY TO RUMBLE!

    He's Tanned! He's Rested! He's Ready!

    ESchatz is BACK! and READY TO RUMBLE!

    Puck and OWUBFIT, if you gentlemen are so eager for prompt recaps, why don't you volunteer to do them?

    R. Cox: I am so upset with this type of shoddy, take your regulars for granite, no mileage at all waste of cyber space that you have made Geocities (not directly talking for them, just saying) give up energy for. You should be ashamed of what the principles that you hold to go forward with this kind of hegemony (not gemony, I am not calling anyone God, here) that you are putting us through. You have no core principles that you adhere to and you are certainly no approvable blogger and you will never get through this blog without improving and apologizing for this shoddy exploits of defeating Keith Olbermann. You sir have no class. I would be remiss to complain and whine about blacking software when you yoyurself have a much more ringing example of how much a failure this cite is for not improving and exemplifying the Countdown summaries.

    Cecelia:

    A) It is not my job to write the summaries. It is Johnny Dollar's job.

    B) I would love to write down summaries for Olbermann Watch. The principle, like I had said, is that they do the job of bunking Keith Olbermann.

    C) Keith Olbermann is getting away with his nonsense because nobody is citing him with evidence of his lack of integrity.

    D) If Keith Olberman was infamous on a web blog, I would say all of the same things that I am saying now to him & this would not change just because it is Robert Cox and Johnny Dollar and Teddy Schatz. I would treat Keith and Robert equally. There would be no difference. The same upset reaction to a differen person.

    R. Cox: I am so upset with this type of shoddy, take your regulars for granite "granite" ? OWUBFIT, dude get a GED and a dictionary.

    Bicker, take a chill pill, dude.

    QQ: I always said "granted". Recently I was corrected with something wrong and (granite) and I used that and apparently that is the wrong phrase. Sorry. I was going to use "granted" and then I thought "to decrease complaints when I am going for drama in returning comments after what I say, I will use the 'correct' terminology." Sorry.

    Royal: Maybe I really should.

    Eschatz, could you spare me some of yours? You have been out for HOURS! Disabilitation the website/blog, not taking accountability for how bad he is making the website look, not delivering anything in his place, and I know that there will be no answer or apology from R. Cox or Johnny Dollar even though they are conservatives and conservatives are supposed to be the party that takes accountability for their actions. They are not.. Olbermann Watch has been in shambles for one week and their is not one direct apology from anyone making Olbermann Watch lose it's glimmer. Not that I expect them to, but they really should. This is unbelievable. This is like hour 25 of "who cares about the reputation of the website and s*** on OWUB." syndrome.

    I am >>>almost

    Everyone is now in full agreement that MSDNC debate coverage was the most disgraceful in history. Keith Olbermann was a rude little child trying to get noticed in a room full of adults. Only the most ardent Olby defends, his Hitler youth, would say that Olbermann did anything but further disgrace NBC Noise. I wonder if Keith will cover the fact that non-socialist, pro-American was elected in France. I am sure that story will be spiked. I guess the French are tired of having cars torched every night by Muslim terrorists. France might have saved itself from becoming the first Muslim dictatorship in Europe. I guess that honor will full on Great Britain.

    Okay. I am dnoe for tonight. R. Cox: Keep up the good work. Maintain your excelent handling on the news of the day and keep on proving Keith Olbermann wrong every single night. Johnny Dollar: For some reason, I checked your website and you recently implied that you will be gone for a long while since you said "enjoy the Spring". Eschatz: You are certainly the fastest person in terms of posting episode summaries. Not only that, but you did not blame wasting all of this time on O.C.D. Great reverance.

    (That was sarcasm, by the way.)

    Good to see Cox calling out Average Olby Parot on inserting Taliban into an artical to try and make a point. See Average, just because you want something to be true, that does not make it true.

    Good to see Cox calling out Average Olby Parot on inserting Taliban into an artical to try and make a point. See Average, just because you want something to be true, that does not make it true.

    Posted by: The Factor at May 8, 2007 2:52 AM
    Factor, ask Mike, he believes the same thing. He also thinks Ted Turner has nothing to do with CNN/Time Warner!

    I checked your website and you recently implied that you will be gone for a long while since you said "enjoy the Spring"

    Posted by: Obama Watch Us Bicker Formerly in Technicolor at May 8, 2007 2:45 AM

    "Enjoy the spring"! WHAT?

    Nooo!!

    If I find out he's relocating to Florida, I'm never speaking to Grammie again...

    "Factor, ask Mike. He believes the same thing. He also believes Ted Turner has nothing to do with CNN/Time Warner."

    Not at all what I said!...But it certainly beats believing Paul Wolfowitz didn't play a major role in getting us involved in Iraq...and that Steven Colbert is really a "conservative making fun of the libs."

    Jeff's infatuation with me continues as he seems almost incapable of making a post without either mentioning my name, or implicating me in some manner....even when I've been off the site for many hours, or have been completely absent from a particular thread.

    Kind of funny....really.

    Gun totting loons Factor and Bovine say:

    Good to see Cox calling out Average Olby Parot on inserting Taliban into an artical to try and make a point. See Average, just because you want something to be true, that does not make it true.

    Posted by: The Factor at May 8, 2007 2:52 AM
    Factor, ask Mike, he believes the same thing. He also thinks Ted Turner has nothing to do with CNN/Time Warner!
    Posted by: royalking at May 8, 2007 3:25 AM


    OK, Factor. Here is the full post:


    Full quote, as it appears in the page:

    "Proclamation 5034—Afghanistan Day, 1983
    By the President of the United States of America, 21 March 1983

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45/278.html

    The tragedy of Afghanistan continues as the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters [The

    Taliban] persevere in standing up against the brutal power of the Soviet invasion and occupation. The

    Afghan people are struggling to reclaim their freedom, which was taken from them when the Soviet Union

    invaded Afghanistan in December of 1979. "

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Actual quote, sans [The Taliban]

    Proclamation 5034—Afghanistan Day, 1983
    March 21st, 1983
    Public Papers of the Presidents
    Ronald Reagan1983: Book I

    By the President of the United States of America
    A Proclamation

    "The tragedy of Afghanistan continues as the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters persevere

    in standing up against the brutal power of the Soviet invasion and occupation. The Afghan people are

    struggling to reclaim their freedom, which was taken from them when the Soviet Union invaded

    Afghanistan in December of 1979. "

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    FREEDOM OR THEOCRACY?: CONSTITUTIONALISM IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ
    Hannibal Travis*

    --U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Pakistani dictator Zia ul-Haq directed billions in American military aid

    for the mujahideen, mostly to "the more extreme Sunni fundamentalist faction led by Gulbuddin

    Hekmatyar."161---

    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 6, 2007 2:34 AM

    ------------------- ( on to part 2 ) ----------------------------------------

    "Taliban" Part 2


    From Encarta:

    http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761588418/Taliban.html

    ...Taliban, Islamic fundamentalist movement in Afghanistan that controlled most of the country from

    September 1996 to November 2001. The Taliban movement was created in 1994 by a senior mullah (

    Islamic priest), Mohammed Omar, in the southern Afghanistan city of Kandahār.
    * The name Taliban, meaning “student,”*
    refers to the movement’s origins in Islamic religious schools, or madrasas,
    *although most members knew war all their lives and attended the madrasas only for rudimentary religious

    training.*

    II
    Origins and Rise to Power


    The Taliban movement emerged out of the chaos and uncertainty of the Afghan-Soviet War (1979-1989)

    and subsequent civil war in Afghanistan. During the 1980s Afghanistan was occupied by the Union of

    Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) and ruled by a Soviet-backed government. Afghanistan’s long war with

    the USSR was largely fought by
    *mujahideen (Islamic guerrilla) *
    *factions with assistance from the United States;*
    Pakistan also provided places of refuge, military training, and other support. After the Soviets completed

    their withdrawal in 1989,
    *civil war broke out between the mujahideen factions and the central government*..

    ...The Taliban emerged as a faction of mujahideen soldiers who identified themselves as religious students

    .*
    The Taliban consisted mostly of Pashtuns intent on once again dominating the central government in Kā

    bul. They were trained and armed by the Frontier Constabulary, a quasi-military unit in Pakistan, which

    also has a significant Pashtun population. The Taliban actively recruited thousands of young men in the

    Afghan refugee camps and the madrasas in Pakistan. Many war orphans also joined the movement.
    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 6, 2007 2:44 AM

    --------------------------- (on to part 3 and conclusion) ---------------------------------

    "Taliban" Part 3 - Last.

    I'm glad we have cleared the air.
    Raygun did not praise the Taliban. He couldn't. The Taliban, per se, did not exist yet.
    However, Raygun did praise the "the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters" or *mujahideen (

    Islamic guerrilla) * and Raygun even provided them with "assistance from the United States*"

    Now, you can slice it and dice it anyway you want, Bush Supporters.

    It turned out that those poor, "valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters" or *mujahideen* or *

    Islamic guerrilla* didn't have the words of wisdom from Raygun to guide them in the path to freedom after

    defeating the Ruskys. Otherwise they would have stopped being "*mujahideen, Islamic guerrilla soldiers*

    who only *attended the madrasas... for rudimentary religious training.* Worse yet, they could have

    become secular progressives!

    I feel much better now knowing that Raygun's help to the mujahideen, Islamic guerrilla soldiers, did not

    encourage Osama Bin Laden; remember, he's not in the Taliban yet, he's a lowly freedomfighting

    mujahideen, or the other Islamic extremists resulting from the mujahideen.

    DAMN KEITH OLBERMANN AND HIS LIES!!

    I AM NOT A BU$HWIPE!!
    I AM A REAL RAYGUN REPUGLICAN!!
    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 6, 2007 3:16 AM

    --------------------------- (Responses) --------------

    Actually, AAP, the policy of helping the mujahideen, started under Pres. Carter and his national security

    advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski.

    At the time, our biggest enemy was the USSR, and their advance into the Middle East via afghanistan was

    ....a bit problematic...
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 6, 2007 3:32 AM

    ----

    >>Actually, AAP, the policy of helping the mujahideen, started under Pres. Carter and his national

    security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski.>At the time, our biggest enemy was the USSR, and their advance

    into the Middle East via afghanistan was ....a bit problematic...

    Oh, yeah! Propping up Saddam, another stroke of pure genious!

    Way below average, rather than admit he's wrong, he plays the 'divert' card, a common olbyloon tactic.
    Posted by: royalking at May 6, 2007 11:52 AM

    ------------------

    Oooooh Bovine!

    >>Actually, AAP, the policy of helping the mujahideen, started under Pres. Carter and his national

    security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski.>At the time, our biggest enemy was the USSR, and their advance

    into the Middle East via afghanistan was ....a bit problematic...

    What part of 8 years of Reagan's support for the mujahideen (Islamic guerrilla), including Osama Bin Laden,

    don't you understand?

    -"oh...uh...well... it was that damned Carter that started it... poor Ronnie tried, but he just couldn't get us

    out in 8 short years...and besides, Saddam was a nice guy at the time... and the Iranians too, very nice of

    them to buy our weapons... so why do you even bring them up. Just look at the Middle East now,

    Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. they can't help it but juuuuuuuuuust looooooove us"

    I AM NOT A BU$HWIPE!!
    I AM A REAL RAYGUN REPUGLICAN!!
    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 6, 2007 12:23 PM

    Posted above:

    "Olbermann, as well as his olbyloons have very low self asteems and are very insecure. That's why they hate capitalism, because they can't capitalize."

    I've been saying that for years. Liberals are losers.
    Let me add: Have you ever seen a liberal that was attractive. I'd say it's a high probability that these liberals posting on this board would scare teh ugly off an ape. The rest have asss the size of a no. 2 washtub. The rest are balder than James Carville. What's that Confusias saying about going around with hate and a frown on your face it becomes permanent. Look at Ealenor Cliff, Bob Schrum, Bob Beckel, James Carville, just to name a few. Talk about sour pusses.

    Bob Schrum, "I hate Geroge Bush, I hate you, I hate America, I hate, I ha..I hatttee...ah hell, I hate myself every time I look in the Mirror. The only time these people smile is when they declare teh US as lsoing the was in Iraq. I'd like to ask them if they could smile and harder or have any more gleem in their eye when they want to declare teh leader of the free world a loser.

    Liberals should be stoned to death and put out of misery.

    bush,

    We may hate George Bush, but we don't hate America. We simply hate the man who is bankrupting her, sending her soldiers to a single theater that was no threat to us, destroying her credibility and failing to defend her when he was called...

    Glad I could clear that up, son...

    "If I find out he's relocating to Florida, I'm never speaking to Grammie again...
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 8, 2007 4:12 AM"

    Oh, Cecelia! Do you think it might be?

    Wow! Maybe all that swooning is going to pay off! :)

    Grammie

    Actually, I was hoping that the time is being used to implement some of those possible changes to OW that R Cox enticed us with.

    I know you were generally not in favor of anything other than filtering out the 'bad words' that are causing OW to be blocked by software designed mainly to protect vulnerable groups from porn but I have developed a different take on it. The more I thought about it and read that thread and others the more I am in favor of additional measures.

    I think the major's post:

    "First off, I want to say I've enjoyed this thread more than any I've read in a while! It is full of moslty thoughtful, sincere and even polite replies. with a few exceptions of course. maybe we could talk Bob cox into creating a place just for flame wars where certain folks can have at each other?
    Posted by: craigs at May 1, 2007 9:00 PM "

    raised a very good point. I didn't participate in that thread but reading it was a pleasure.

    I made the following statement at R Cox's input thread: "There has to be a middle ground between Barney and Friends treacle and all out street warfare." Preserve the spirit of OW but eliminate the deliberately disruptive and destructive.

    Grammie

    Bob!

    Whatever you do, please!

    Do not get rid of BovineQueen!

    Where else can we find RW gems like these:

    >Ohboy, these olbyloons (like Ulbermahn) will never say one negative word about the terorrists. The archives prove that point. Mike, below average patriot, nobody cares, and the many anonyloons all defend the enemy on a daily basis, simply pathetic.

    100 years ago, they would have all been scalped or strung up.
    The former would be more fun!
    >Posted by: royalking at May 7, 2007 10:23 PM

    Mike's logic, when you have no defense, make stupid comments like above. Mike is a proven terrorist defender. A bonifide traitor like his hero's, Coward Clark and Ketchup Kerry. All 3 a desgrace to the uniform.
    Posted by: royalking at May 8, 2007 11:27 AM

    Thank you Bob!

    I've never read one of J$ write ups, nor seen an episode of the Keith Olbermann show in whole or part. Because of Bicker's over the top reaction, I did go ahead and read some of this new guy's summary. It seems to me to be a bold slap in the face to both Olbermann and equally nefarious agencies like the MLA and Harbrace. It reminds me of computer generated poetry. Nonetheless, I think it is right on target considering it's target audience. Do you people really think you are any better than this?

    If so, why not draft Cecelia to do the summary?

    Hey, AAP....thanks for the lengthy, insightful post on Ronald Reagan's support for the Taliban. I really missed seeing it on this thread, after having it posted on so many others already.

    Jesus, dude. We get it. You're still trying to blame Reagan for everything.

    Problem is, your logic is flawed in so many ways. You had to insert the word Taliban to get it to fit your opinion. Bad practice there, taking quotes out of context to fit your spin, although it does strike a harmonic note with Olby.

    A quote from your post: "After the Soviets completed

    their withdrawal in 1989,
    *civil war broke out between the mujahideen factions and the central government*..

    ...The Taliban emerged as a faction of mujahideen soldiers who identified themselves as religious students

    .*.....After 1989. Ronald Reagan was no longer President in 1989, remember?

    Equating all "freedom fighters" with the Taliban goes beyond wishful thinking and into the Cindy Sheehan realm.

    NEW YORK -- Six men from New Jersey have been arrested in an alleged terror plot against soldiers at Fort Dix, according to law enforcement sources.

    Investigators said the men planned to use automatic rifles to enter Fort Dix and kill as many soldiers as they could at the New Jersey military base. Fort Dix was just one of several military and security locations allegedly scouted by this group, authorities said.


    Leave it to the good ole AP to leave out the fact that 3 of the "men" were here illegally and all six of the "men" were muslims. What is it you libby's always spew? "Fear mongers," "warmongers?" "Theres no threat here?" Keep those blinders on. A muzzled malamute, for sure.

    George Bush causes tornados now, wow. Wait, I thought Bush only caused natural disasters where minorities live? Kansas is a mostly Republican state. Shouldn't Keith be happy some republicans were killed since, according to him, they are terrorists? Where will we ever find more bulldozers now that Bush has "STOLEN" all of them? Did you know that bulldozers now prevent tornados?

    Scott sez:

    ----Problem is, your logic is flawed in so many ways. You had to insert the word Taliban to get it to fit your opinion. Bad practice there, taking quotes out of context to fit your spin, although it does strike a harmonic note with Olby.---

    I did not insert the word "Taliban."

    I posted the full quote as it appears on the page where it is and as I found it.

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45/278.html

    It is not my problem if some lazy morons didn't bother to read it.

    Further,

    What part of 8 years of Reagan's support for the mujahideen (Islamic guerrilla),
    including Osama Bin Laden,
    don't you understand?

    -"oh...uh...well... it was that damned Carter that started it... poor Ronnie tried, but he just couldn't get us
    out in 8 short years...and besides, Saddam was a nice guy at the time... and the Iranians too, very nice of
    them to buy our weapons... so why do you even bring them up. Just look at the Middle East now,

    Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. they can't help it but juuuuuuuuuust looooooove us"

    I AM NOT A BU$HWIPE!!
    I AM A REAL RAYGUN REPUGLICAN!!

    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 8, 2007 7:38 AM

    The funniest part is that all of the Neo-Raygun Repuglicans, by their metamorphose, have opened up the ugly part of the Raygun legacy and now not only they have to distance themselves from the stench of Moron in Chief, but also have to pretend to be as good, if not better, than Raygun himself.

    Say, Bush Supporters, how would St. Raygun fix the Iraq mess?

    Send Rumsfeld again?

    (Oh, wait... Junior tried that one already...)

    Some times I sit back in my chair at my computer and look at what I have posted and think to myself....damn I'm smart.

    And on top of that....

    I'm pretty too.

    I'm pretty, so pretty......

    And I just love to say Bush Supporters because it makes me giggle to myself.

    Raygun is funny too. Hee Hee Ha Ha Ho Ho... Im SO smart

    Average American Traitor,
    You're just a Leftist hack.

    "What part of 8 years of Reagan's support for the mujahideen (Islamic guerrilla),
    including Osama Bin Laden,
    don't you understand"
    The Taliban didn't start until the early 90's.
    Bin Laden's crew wasn't helped by the CIA but by the Saudis and the Pakistani ISI.
    It was Massoud's group which later became the Northern alliance that Washington backed.

    " Saddam was a nice guy at the time"
    He was fighting Iran at that time. He recieved more sid from France, Germany and Russia then us.
    Get your facts straight.

    "and the Iranians too, very nice of
    them to buy our weapons"
    We were trying to get our hostages out of Lebanon.
    It was a bad idea.
    In 1988 the US Navy destroyed the Iranians in a one day battle called Operation Praying Mantis.

    "Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. they can't help it but juuuuuuuuuust looooooove us"
    Why is there Johad in Thailand, Kashmir and Sudan?
    Why did the Muslims attack the Christian Roman Empire in the 7th Century?
    Answer that Leftist Muslim loving fool!

    Wow.....Now that I checked it out your right Joker.

    I am an idot!

    Sorry Bush Supporters.

    I will get my facts straight next time.

    To do. Check facts, cable, cold boot, wiener, hand cuffs.

    Its a good day to be an American.

    Interesting story on Drudge (terror plot foiled for Fort Dix). I wonder if Olbermann will cover it?

    Sharm.....

    Keith Olbermann go as in depth with a partisan (leftist) guest as he did with the Kansas non-story last night?.......Covering a story about radical islamists caught by the fine FBI plotting to murder American soldiers?.......

    Ummmm.....No....

    Also, Olby will not mention these fine terroirists STILL HAVE THEIR DUE PROCESS RIGHTS INCLUDING HABEUS CORPUS!...... wow.....he eeeeevil Bush let them keep 'em......Wrong again crazy lefties!

    Robert, you should let Average American Patriot do a recap, I think it would be kind of fun.

    Also....

    Perhaps Olbermann will cover the angle of the privacy rights violation that occurred when the ALLEGED terrorists' DVD's were examined by law enforcement.....Again, under THE EEEEEEVIL BUSH!

    Where is that image of "Habeus Corpus" on a tomb stone Olby put up last year as he demogogued "THE DEATH OF HABEUS CORPUS, OH MY!"......Do we have an example of anyone losing their due process rights since?......Anyone, anyone?

    Apologists, Bush-haters, anyone?

    Great!

    It is only May 2007, and the Neo-Raygun-Repuglicans will have to disscuss Raygun's legacy and their individual platforms until Nov. 2008!

    Joker sez:

    -- The Taliban didn't start until the early 90's. ---
    Yes.

    --- Bin Laden's crew wasn't helped by the CIA but by the Saudis and the Pakistani ISI. ----

    No.
    The mujahideen (Islamic guerrilla) *freedom fighters* started receiving help since the Carter Admin., according to Cecelia; And praise from Raygun during 8 years.

    --" Saddam was a nice guy at the time"
    He was fighting Iran at that time. He recieved more sid from France, Germany and Russia then *us.* ---
    As I mentioned in other post, *freakin' stroke of GENIUS!!!

    ---"and the Iranians too, very nice of
    them to buy our weapons"
    We were trying to get our hostages out of Lebanon.
    It was a bad idea. ----

    No shiet, Sherlock!!

    ---Why is there Johad in Thailand, Kashmir and Sudan?---
    Uh...oh... I don't know... could it be because religious extremism finds fertile ground in poverty and/or ignorance?

    How about that?
    Raise your hand if you DON'T believe in evolution!

    --- Why did the Muslims attack the Christian Roman Empire in the 7th Century? ---
    Uh...oh... I don't know... greed, lust for power, territorial expansion, religious zealotry.
    BTW, the Christians did nicely all the way until the 1700's, on some places until 1860. Very devoted Xtian slave owners, indeed.

    There Joker.
    I've answered. I hope you grow some balls and ask the same from the Neo-Raygun Repuglicans.
    How are they going to solve Moron In Chief's mess in Iraq while pretending to ignore Raygun's legacy?

    If you insist on fighting the Crusades, I suggest you take your Bible and head on to, let's see... I wouldn't want to put you in harms way while you spread the Gospel... God forbid you end up in Iraq!!
    How about Thailand or Indonesia?
    Maybe Miami?

    below average, may I suggest you practice what you preach. You and mickey have got to find a different drug dealer, he's giving you guys some BAD stuff!

    Save the Cats! sez:

    Robert, you should let Average American Patriot do a recap, I think it would be kind of fun.
    Posted by: Save the Cats! at May 8, 2007 4:17 PM

    Gee, thanks but, no thanks.
    I'd do my best to entertain you folks, but in no way could I beging to fill them big assclown shoes of Johnny Bu$hwipe.

    I've in numerous times nominated BovineQueen to do the recaps, but I've heard it would interfere with his daily dose of paranoia and angry clichés from Dr. Weiner.

    Still, I must insist, at least, make Bovine the site's Official Inquisitor...erh... Official Moderator!

    :D

    Still, I must insist, at least, make Bovine the site's Official Inquisitor...erh... Official Moderator!

    :D

    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 8, 2007 5:24 PM


    Oh, lord, AAP, your already massive paranoia would jump 200% in that case.

    You wouldn't just be accusing the site of censoring the term "BU$HWIPE", you'd also swear that Neil Cavuto was telepathically controlling your keyboard.

    Cecelia sez:

    ---Oh, lord, AAP, your already massive paranoia would jump 200% in that case.

    You wouldn't just be accusing the site of censoring the term "BU$HWIPE", you'd also swear that Neil Cavuto was telepathically controlling your keyboard.
    Posted by: Cecelia at May 8, 2007 5:49 PM---

    No Cecelia, I believe you are mistaken. That time when I was having problems posting, there were no "Bush Supporters" in the post.
    Rather, links and quotes in a format that the posting box doesn't like.

    If I remember correctly, and if you'll indulge me, try posting something within the "smaller-than" bracket and the "greater-than" bracket. Like this:
    A "smaller-than" TEST "greater-than" B
    (I can't)

    I've said it could be something on my set-up, since I am able to block those google ads and other annoying scripts. In the end, I was able to figure out that the posting box, or the site, does have a filter to stop spambots from flooding with links.

    Still, I must insist, at least, make Bovine the site's Official Inquisitor...erh... Official Moderator!

    :D

    way below, I already have a job, thanks for the nomination, though.

    http://epaper.pressofac.com/images/Duka%20Dritan%20Complaint.pdf

    Here's the criminal complaint filed against the fun loving muslims that wanted to kill our soldiers in New Jersey and 4 other bases! Why the leftists want to defend and protect people like this is unbelievable to me.

    "Why the leftists want to defend and protect people like this is unbelievable to me."

    They don't.....it's all in your head.

    I'm not really understanding "Average American Patriot". Are you saying that America would be better off if The Soviet Union took over Afghanistan? Are you saying that America would be better off if Iran had taken over Iraq? Are you saying that Christians are responsible for the world's ills?

    Gee, I thought that terrorists won't follow us here.

    "Gee, I thought that terrorists won't follow us here."

    I believe the complete talking point goes something like "if we leave Iraq, the terrorists will follow us here."

    We haven't left Iraq.

    They don't.....it's all in your head.

    Posted by: Mike at May 8, 2007 7:41 PM

    My mistake, people like Ted Kennedy, Dinjee(the war is lost) Harry, Pelosi,Mad Man Murtha, Turbin Durbin, the ACLU, Cindy Sheehan and people like you must all be in my head!

    Jeff: "My mistake".

    Absolutely....have you heard any of those arch villians you just mentioned 'defend' the Muslems who wanted to kill our soldiers in New Jersey?

    RK, thanks for the link. These guys were serious. If they had remained undetected they could have caused some very serious damage.

    Especially the legal ones considering joining the military to kill US servicemen from the inside.

    Now let me go see what KO had to say about it.

    Grammie

    James sez:

    ---- Are you saying that America would be better off if The Soviet Union took over Afghanistan? Are you saying that America would be better off if Iran had taken over Iraq? Are you saying that Christians are responsible for the world's ills?
    Posted by: James at May 8, 2007 8:00 PM
    ---

    Nope.

    As Moron in Chief would say, "Historic Revisionists, that's what I call them"

    I have said it before. These Neo-Raygun-Repuglicans won't be able to just claim
    "I am a Real Raygun Repuglican.
    --No. I am.
    ---Naaawh! You two ain't. I'm the Real Raygun Repuglican..."

    The Facts are: the SU is gone, yes, and Reagan had a lot to do with it. But you can't shove under the rug what I've already mentioned and it is part of History (Reagan, OBL & Saddam).

    The part about Xtianity is only to contrast Joker's (and other morons') outrage, and again, it is part of History.

    Fast forward to present day.
    What are the Neo-Raygun-Repuglicans pretenders going to do?
    How are they going to solve Moron In Chief's mess in Iraq while pretending to ignore Raygun's legacy?
    Are they going to embrace "Nation Building"?
    Are they going to go totally NUKE?

    or just yell,
    I AM A REAL RAYGUN REPUGLICAN!!
    IF THE DEMOCRATS WIN! THE TERRORISTS WILL GET YA!!!
    DAMN TERRORIST ENABLING DEMOCRATS!!!

    Maulkin and Coulter : brainiacs for the right !


    Coulter said today that Obama is good for Al Qaeda and Maulkin has suggested that college students should be armed( they would have been able to prevent the Va Tech massacre)

    Could you imagine a country full of campuses full of armed drunken college students ?
    It would be like the shootout at the OK corral !

    Or a cafeteria fight between two girls and then their boyfriends intervene WITH GUNS.

    And to think the Maulkin is respected by the nutcase right wingers !

    My lord !

    Absolutely....have you heard any of those arch villians you just mentioned 'defend' the [Muslems] who wanted to kill our soldiers in New Jersey?

    Posted by: Mike at May 8, 2007 9:13 PM

    They have been dead silent. Which is in and of it's self defending them.

    Sane person, the demographics of today's college student is very different from earlier periods in our history. The average age is much older and many students are retired, current and ex military; ditto law enforcement personnel; mature established working family men and women; ROTC students etc.

    Allowing and even encouraging these students to have and use a permit to carry could be a big bonus in situations such as the VT massacre. There could be the potential for much good vs minimal risk to the public at large.

    Grammie

    Grammie..you are as lethally insane as Maulkin.

    Ever hear of a drunken frat party?

    Minimal risk ?

    Your brain cells just keep deteriorating or its that right wing night blindness getting to you again.

    Allowing and even encouraging these students to have and use a permit to carry could be a big bonus in situations such as the VT massacre.

    and the potential for danger a greater % of the time.

    Chicken Blogger, I attended some of them myself. There is no fun in just hearing about them. And if you want to get down to the nitty gritty, the frats were tame compared to the cool cats.

    Did you read my post? I cited the fact that the demographics of college students have changed drastically and I reiterated what demographics using permits to carry might benefit us more to the good than the bad.

    I can well understand anyone disagreeing with me but please respond to what I actually wrote, not what you assume I wrote or meant.

    Grammie

    Grammie

    Here ya go, morons!

    Calif. Student Arrested in Shooting
    By GARANCE BURKE
    Associated Press Writer

    FRESNO, Calif. — Police arrested a college student Tuesday suspected of opening fire in an off-campus apartment during a dispute over a video game console, killing one man and wounding two others.

    "The suspect had altered his appearance significantly," Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer said. "He shaved his head and also changed his clothing apparently in an attempt to avoid being recognized."

    One of the wounded men, returning home with a bloody bandage on his left shoulder, said the dispute started Monday night when he and the other victims accused Brooks of stealing a Sony Playstation console and game.

    "The guy who shot us — he had stolen from our apartment. We went to confront him with the evidence and it just turned ugly from there. He pulled a gun out on us," said Drew Pfeiff, 22, of Raleigh, N.C. "People don't deserve to die for stupid stuff like this."

    The gunman fired five or six times, grazing Pfeiff.

    Brooks, of Hayward, was being held in lieu of $3 million bail Tuesday.

    His defense attorney, David Mugridge, said Brooks received a grazing wound to his upper right thigh, which required treatment at a hospital.

    "This is a young man who was doing reasonably well at Fresno State and was not known as a loner," Mugridge said. "If anything, this was an issue of self-defense."

    Meosha Chase, 19, said she was Brooks' ex-girlfriend and described him as a "fine, normal, goofy, silly" teen who wanted to be a parole officer.

    His principal at Hayward High School, Mary Anne Heather, said Brooks was a well-liked student who "stood for his personality and his drive and determination. For him to do this is inconceivable."

    Police said the shooting occurred in Brooks' apartment but spilled into a hallway. Police said everyone involved lived in the same apartment complex, located just north of the Fresno State football stadium.

    The Fresno County Coroner's Office identified the deceased victim as a Brant Daniels, 19, who had moved from the Los Angeles area to attend Fresno State but was not a current student.

    Police identified the two wounded men as Fresno State student Roderick Buycks, 19, and Pfeiff, who police said is not enrolled at the university.

    The two men were treated at a hospital for gunshot wounds and later released.

    Dyer said police received a call around 4 a.m. from Brooks' mother, who told officers her son was on the other line and wanted to negotiate his surrender. After hours of three-way conversations, Brooks arranged to turn himself in at 9 a.m. at Fresno police headquarters, where his father was waiting, but the suspect didn't appear.

    Police eventually tracked Brooks to an apartment in southeast Fresno, about eight miles from where the shooting took place. After some negotiation Brooks surrendered without incident.

    ------------------------------------------------

    Congratulations to that rabid boetch Maulkin!

    I must have missed something here.

    Congratulations go to MM because? She exists?

    Grammie

    Maulkin's and Grammie's idea is a really really bad idea.
    Actually quite insane.

    NO wonder they love it !

    80% of college students are still young , impressionable and a little reckless.
    Put guns in their hands !

    Oh My !

    "80% of college students are still young , impressionable and a little reckless.
    Put guns in their hands !"

    Brought to you by the same people who thought the iraq War was a good idea !

    Grammie,

    I think someone said she advocated college students carrying guns to avoid Virginia Tech scenrios.

    I think someone said she advocated college students carrying guns to avoid Virginia Tech scenrios.
    Posted by: Sharm at May 8, 2007 11:40 PM

    Are you referring to rabid boetch?

    or this?

    -----
    Allowing and

    *even encouraging* (LOL!!)

    these students to have and use a permit to carry could be a big bonus in situations such as the VT massacre. There could be the potential for much good vs minimal risk to the public at large.

    Grammie

    Posted by: Janet Hawkins at May 8, 2007 11:15 PM---------

    Sharm, good to meet up with you here. BTW, I have always thought of you as 'Sharm'. I like the change.

    Although she advocated permits to carry for college students it was and is a non sequitur to end an account of this incident with MM even if the student had a permit to carry. The story does,t say one way or the other.

    It seems from this account that several students went to his apartment where the shooting occurred. He could have had a permit to carry, which would have been irrelevant because they didn't confront him on the streets or anyplace equivalent. He could have had a legally purchased gun in his apartment. He could have had an illegally purchased gun in his apartment.

    Whatever MM said has nothing to with what happened in this instance. And no one has addressed my contention that there is a fairly large college population of students (20% according to Chicken Blogger) that are in the category of citizens who have the maturity, history and background to qualify for a permit to carry.

    I understand that others can and would disagree with my opinion. Some give me the impression that the military and law enforcement shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons, concealed or not.

    So far, I am still waiting for anyone to drop the straw man and address the point that I made.

    Grammie

    Grammie

    Sorry Grammie. I didn't realize you had commented on the topic earlier and thought you wanted clarification. I am not familiar with gun laws, but I would think that in states where gun laws are more favorable to gun owners, there are statistics to indicate problems with criminal behavior in the college age population. In other words, are there bar fights, etc. resulting in more shootings, that sort of thing?

    I believe in the right to bear arms, with some reasonable limitations. I plan to learn how to use a gun someday. My husband used to hunt and had owned a few different types of guns (before we hooked up). He just traded them in last year for a good bike with a little computer on it and some good bike shoes. My mother-in-law was about to give the guns away (they were stored at her house) so he drove 3 hours to salvage them : )

    No Sharm, you still don't get it.

    --- Maulkin has suggested that college students should be armed( they would have been able to prevent the Va Tech massacre) ---

    but Gummies here takes it one step further:

    --- Allowing and

    *even encouraging* (LOL!!)

    these students to have and use a permit to carry could be a big bonus in situations such as the VT massacre. There could be the potential for much good vs minimal risk to the public at large.

    Grammie

    Posted by: Janet Hawkins at May 8, 2007 11:15 PM---------


    Sure thing Gummies.
    Let's *encourage them* to pack heat.

    Nearly 100% of college age kids are eligible to join the military.

    Your background and/or past experience determines your view of the issue. I read some blogs of people on both sides (guns on campus).

    Sharm, we don't need statistics to tell us that the young are far more volatile than older more mature people. I've read statistics that even the most violent career criminals slow down as they get older, just like we all mostly do. I remember seeing a correlation of statistics that accounted for the bulk, if not all, of the decrease in violent crime in the last decade plus to the concomitant aging of the baby boomers.

    The first post I made re this subject was @ 11:15 AM. With the straw men being consumed here at OW I am surprised that there is any straw left in the country.

    I could myself make many of the reasonable arguments countering my position very easily. I don't agree with them but I understand the basis for them. So far, though, all I have read is the sameo sameo non sequitursand insults.

    That makes me wonder if they have any rational basis for their position. If they do they sure are expert at hiding their ideas under a bushel.

    But hey, hope springs eternal, or as a girl friend of mine always says, live in hope but die in despair. :) Who knows, one of them might come through one day.

    Grammie

    Probably the little detail that the shooter in the story wanted to be in *law enforcement* has escaped you?

    ---- "FRESNO, Calif. — Police arrested college student Tuesday suspected of opening fire at an apartment during a dispute over a video game console, killing one man and wounding two others.

    Jonquel Brooks, 19, was taken into custody after a series of intense phone negotiations with police, his parents and an attorney, Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer said.

    Police said the shooting across a street from the California State University, Fresno, stadium broke out during a confrontation with four men over a Playstation game console late Monday.

    Brooks,
    *who was majoring in criminology at Fresno State*,
    was arrested after police and federal agents launched a manhunt for him. Investigators initially believed he was still inside the apartment complex where the shooting occurred, but then expanded the search to other parts of Fresno.

    "The suspect had altered his appearance significantly," Dyer said. "He shaved his head and also changed his clothing apparently in an attempt to avoid being recognized."----


    ---- A woman who said she was Brooks' ex-girlfriend described him as a "fine, normal, goofy, silly" teen who wanted to be a parole officer. ----

    Sure thing Gummies.
    Let's *encourage them* to pack heat.

    Grammie,

    In my state, parole officers are permitted to carry a weapon (with proper training) but can choose not to. That privilege can be taken away. Are you familiar with Dog the Bounty Hunter? He doesn't carry a weapon. I like the choice idea.

    So he wanted to be in law enforcement. Maybe last week he wanted to be something else.

    I think what concerned me about the whole VT incident is the immobility of so many. After such a tragedy, people get fired up. Look what happened after 9/11, when the shoe-bomber Reid (?) was accosted by a large number of people on the plane. I think that is what is happening now; some people are getting really fired up. I don't know the consequences of encouraging gun carrying on campus. I can see both sides of that one.

    Sharm sez:

    -- So he wanted to be in law enforcement. Maybe last week he wanted to be something else. --

    Which goes directly to the so called "contention that there is a
    *fairly large college population*
    of students (20% according to Chicken Blogger) that are in the category of citizens who have the maturity, history and background to qualify for a permit to carry."

    Furthermore, the fact alone that he wanted to be in law enforcement and snapped makes the suggestion even worse if you consider a lunatic in *creative writing* like in V Tech.

    Sure thing Gummies.
    Let's *encourage them* to pack heat.

    Sharm, it is perfectly legal to carry a legally owned firearm out in the open in many areas. It would be a very stupid thing to do, but it is legal,

    A 'permit to carry' refers to an additional more rigorous process that allows ordinary citizens to be licensed to carry CONCEALED weapons in jurisdictions that allow them. . The requirements vary drastically from place to place but generally unconcealed firearms are not illegal. From Wikipedia:

    "Private citizens in most jurisdictions usually carry only concealed handguns in public except when hunting, since an unconcealed firearm would attract undue attention, and would therefore be less secure, although there are significant numbers of states in the US that continue to permit open carry of handguns."

    The tendency in the recent past has been to expand permit to carry in many jurisdictions.

    Chubby Hubby used to regularly have to drive through some of the very worst areas (virtual war zones) on a regular basis late at night to get business mail off at the main post office. His 357 magnum was on the passenger seat in plain view. Perfectly legal. If it had been under the seat or covered with an handkerchief, suit coat or jacket it would have been illegal.

    Any argument re legal guns to own, to carry or to carry concealed are very complex. Not that you could tell from the simplistic comments we see here.

    Hey, hope still springs eternal.

    Grammie

    Janet Hawkins sez:

    --- simplistic comments we see here. ---

    You mean like these:

    --- Maulkin has suggested that college students should be armed( they would have been able to prevent the Va Tech massacre) ---

    or

    --- it is perfectly legal to carry a legally owned firearm out in the open in many areas.

    *It would be a very stupid thing to do, but it is legal* -----

    or

    ---
    Chubby Hubby used to regularly have to drive through some of the very worst areas (virtual war zones) on a regular basis late at night to get business mail off at the main post office. His 357 magnum was on the passenger seat

    * in plain view.

    Perfectly legal. *

    (and according to your own post, just a few lines above *a very stupid thing to do*)

    If it had been under the seat or covered with an handkerchief, suit coat or jacket it would have been illegal.

    -----

    or

    ------

    Allowing and

    *even encouraging* (LOL!!)

    these students to have and use a permit to carry could be a big bonus in situations such as the VT massacre. There could be the potential for much good vs minimal risk to the public at large.

    Grammie

    Posted by: Janet Hawkins at May 8, 2007 11:15 PM--------

    Sure thing Gummies.
    Let's *encourage them* to pack heat.

    Per Grammie: "The average age is much older and many students are retired, current and ex .... law enforcement personnel...."

    Does that statement equal Patty's statement:

    "Brooks,
    *who was majoring in criminology at Fresno State*,"

    Well it could be if Patty follows Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty's way with words:

    "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean."

    Way to go, Pats.

    With your Humpty Dumpty lexicon and the Queen of Hearts sense of justice how can you lose?

    Grammie

    Gummies sez:

    ---Sane person, the demographics of today's college student is very different from earlier periods in our history.

    * The average age is much older and many students are retired, current and ex military; ditto law enforcement personnel; mature established working family men and women; ROTC students etc. *

    Allowing and

    *even encouraging*

    these students to have and use a permit to carry could be a big bonus in situations such as the VT massacre. There could be the potential for much good vs minimal risk to the public at large.

    Grammie

    Posted by: Janet Hawkins at May 8, 2007 11:15 PM ----

    Gummies, and your figures are?

    --- *fairly large college population*
    of students (20% according to Chicken Blogger) that are in the category of citizens who have the maturity, history and background to qualify for a permit to carry. ---

    HOLY SHIET!!! 20% According to Chicken blogger!!

    So which one is it Gummies, your empirical evidence or Chicken Blogger's *fairly large college population* of 20%?

    The point of the loon in Fresno is that it takes only ONE gun totting loon, on campus or off campus, permit or no permit, with knowledge about the law or not, in the other 80%

    Sure thing Gummies.
    Let's *encourage them 20%* to pack heat.

    If by "Maulkin" we are talking about Michelle Malkin, a little reading would show that you are misrepresenting her opinion.

    MM has advocated allowing students who hold concealed carry permits to carry on campus.

    Not arming all college students. Concealed carry permits require background checks. In most states classes are also required, and the minimum age to own a handgun is 21....which automatically excludes a large number of college students. This includes the CA.

    The Fresno State story has zero relevence to that position. It didn't happen on campus,

    However, studies have shown that states with concealed carry laws have lower instances of multiple victim shootings than rates than states without. (Source: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=272929).

    Thank you Scott.

    I don't think you will have any effect on our Humpty Dumpty Pats troll. You have though very concisely reduced my various comments to a few salient points.

    Grammie

    Let me correct my statement above to read:

    You have though very concisely reduced my MANY comments to a few salient points.

    Grammie

    Grammie,
    It's just a shame when people post partial truths without doing the research to know what they are talking about.

    Wonder who their role model for that tactic might be?

    Scott sez:

    --- MM has advocated allowing students who hold concealed carry permits to carry on campus. ---

    OK, which means these permit holders *already* got a *concealed permit* off campus.

    Packing heat on campus / off campus is the issue (legally with a permit).
    It might not fit the college's policy, but it is not against the law.

    Then we get to what Gummies quoted as "Chicken Blogger's *fairly large college population* of 20%" or "much older and many students are retired, current and ex military; ditto law enforcement personnel; mature established working family men and women; ROTC students etc. *"
    who should be
    "allowed and *even encouraged*" to pack while on campus.

    This is the area where we enter into speculation, since the study you quote
    (Source: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=272929)
    does not address this specific scenario, i.e. shootings on campus.

    Any discussion about guns on campus, weather concealed or not, is relevant because the school has to make its policy known, especially for those who might want to exercise a permit they already hold and the school's policy doesn't allow them to do it.

    This is the area of speculation, where you have transposed a study done of larger multiple shootings on the general population over to fewer shootings on a college population, and that's comparing apples to oranges.

    If you were to say, "more security officers with guns on campus could prevent other tragedies like V Tech" is one thing, but jumping to "...even encouraging
    these students to have and use a permit to carry [concealed guns] could be a big bonus in situations..." is a neurotic leap of faith.

    Sure thing Gummies.
    Let's *encourage them 20%* to pack heat.

    Scott, it's not that they can't or won't do basic research. It's not even that they don't read the comments and don't know and understand the points raised and the arguments made. The conversation in my home with my littlest ones (my youngest grandkids) rise to a level of sophistication that many here would be choking on the dust.

    Dr Thomas Sowell has written on this subject. His contention is that it is a matter of deep personal faith for some people, such as a man of undoubted and rarely achieved intellect as Norm Chomsky, so they are blinded to anything and everything that could conceivably cast even the faintest shadow of a doubt on their absolute tenants of faith. So they become mirror images of what they perceive, despise and deride so contemptuously in others with such ease.

    I can't think of a better explanation for such an unwavering and perverse distortion of the views I expressed and the arguments put forth on such an invidious foundation.

    Take your pick. Fundamentalist fanatics, provocateurs or, in the common parlance, trolls.

    Or as my Dad used to say "he reminds me of a jackass eating cactus".

    Grammie

    Sorry Gummies,

    Around here you'll find only Real Raygun Repuglicans, at least till Nov 2008.

    A perfect example....when confronted with actual facts, the best AAP can come up with is....

    "Sorry Gummies,

    Around here you'll find only Real Raygun Repuglicans, at least till Nov 2008.

    Posted by: Average American Patriot at May 9, 2007 3:51 AM "

    LMAO

    Leave a new comment