Please die Dumbya,,,

Ah, not sure but shouldn't you at least try and complete your review from a few days ago??? When will we get tonight's? Around Xmas!!

Johnny, where are you???

AP today released this story

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-...-friendly-fire/

SAN FRANCISCO — Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors _ whose names were blacked out _ said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among other information contained in the documents:

_ In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

_ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.

With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week.

The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public.

In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

"Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

"Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

We kill our own soldiers now.. When does a real hero turn the gun around.

Bob,,, That is not an easy accomplishment, however once it comes out that Tillman was murdered I hope they take the soldiers involved and shoot all of them in the head.

His attacks on O'Reilly are stale
His producer should be in jail
His "I'm neutral" spew
With no opposing view
That' why Olby is destined to fail
(again)

I guess killing a soldier who was against the war in Iraq is OK by them. I mean he had a telephone call planned with Noam Chomsky and was reportedly about to speak out against the war. The American military is the biggest hinderance to a free world.

Katey are you unable
To get out of your stable
You are a rightwing witch
And a dumbassed bitch
Now put dinner on the table

"I can count them [foreign fighters] as a total I have engaged, dead or alive, in the 10 months I've been here on one hand," says Col. David Sutherland, the U.S. commander of coalition forces in the hotly contested area of Diyala province, an insurgent stronghold region some 35 miles northeast of Baghdad. There, Sutherland says, those involved in al Qaeda are largely dispossessed locals, not jihadists who have come from elsewhere. "The recruiting program is [that] al Qaeda may send five or eight individuals into a village. They recruit from those who have no power base, no place in society," including, he adds, former male prostitutes and the mentally ill."

http://www.rojname.com/index.kurd?nuce=209120

Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at July 26, 2007 8:09 PM

"once it comes out that Tillman was murdered I hope they take the soldiers involved and shoot all of them in the head."

I don't!

- What I hope is that we will finally wake up to who is really to blame for creating this travesty that placed all these courageous young Americans in impossible situations in the first place.

- I hope is that we, as a nation will begin to understand that atrocities will always occur in war...most of which we will never hear about.

- I hope we will finally learn the lesson Vietnam SHOULD have taught us as a nation: That we simply cannot and should not attempt to police the world.

- Maybe we will finally learn that war should never be even contemplated except as an absolute last resort.....We obviously came nowhere near clearing that bar with regards to Iraq.

- The blame needs to be placed squarely where it belongs: On a trigger happy administration that was hell bent on taking us to war....damned the facts or realities!

Nice catch re: Coulter's "outing" of the Republican party's public relations arm - aka "Fasces News" (WPW). Who would know better than he would?

Wow. The only pro-OW posters to post so far, is a pathetic guy named Paul begging for johnny (man-crush?) and another dude who posts anti-Olbermann limmericks under a pseudonym that attempts to mock KO's girlfriend.

This must be where the finest conservative minds come to debate the big issues of the day!

No doubt, Mike. Command responsibility is the name of the game.

The Tillman killing has stunk from day one - the false comic-book story fed to the press; the revelation that Tillman was a bitter critic of the war, and was keeping his mouth shut untill he was discharged (the one thing O'Liely is right about is that Tillman had been planning some sort of collaboration with Noam Chomsky - I wonder when anyone is going to have HIM on to talk about this?); the wierd fact that Tillman's uniform and armor were removed and burnt on the scene- WTF?

As Olbermann state, the slow trickle of truth has only gotten uglier and uglier as time goes on.

Wow. The only pro-OW posters to post so far, is a pathetic guy named Paul begging for johnny (man-crush?) and another dude who posts anti-Olbermann limmericks under a pseudonym that attempts to mock KO's girlfriend.

This must be where the finest conservative minds come to debate the big issues of the day!

Posted by: at July 26, 2007 10:40 PM

They hide deep when news gets this bad.

Speaking of WPITW, Oralmann gleefully reported that the Secret Service was investigating BOR's website for the "threat" on Hillary's life, and didn't even mention that it was a far-left smear site that prompted them to.

We all know that the evil George Bush HIMSELF purposely covered up the facts of Tillman's death. And we all know that the evil George Bush is responsible for hurricane's, wars, cancer, sore throats, the common cold, acne, ingrown toe nails, sports losses, car crashes, stock market losses, and whatever else the cut and run defeat and retreat libs dream up in their cowardly brains!!

Lib dems cower to Johnny D!!!

- In a perfect world, we would see the likes of William Krystal of the Weekly Standard, who rabidly pushed for this war, crying on the front lines in Iraq in 120 degree heat....wondering if he will even see tomorrow.

- In a perfect world, the Paul Wolfowitz's of the world would be cowering beside true patriots like Pat Tillman begging to be saved by the lord.

- A perfect world would have the Dick Cheney's of the world sitting there with two legs blown off patently waiting for help that never arrives from the VA, while his family risks losing everything they own to help them pick up whatever meager pieces of their lives might still be retrievable.

- As for the GWB's of the world?.....Well, never mind, .....this isn't a perfect world!

...>> aka "Fasces News"....

Now they are rumor-mongering that Tillman was murdered. Democrats/Liberals would be far more convincing if they weren't such creepy, hateful, lying bastards.

The general drift of the posts here seem to indicate that some think Pat Tillman's death was part of a deep dark unprecedented in US history conspiracy.

Someone or multiple someones, would you please lay out coherent theories of this unprecedented conspiracy that you have been talking about as if the man had been murdered. Who do you think/believe ordered his murder or murdered him. If 2300 pages of info were released surely there should be something there.

No histrionics, please. Just your perceptions and the citations to back it up.

Grammie

Chicken Blogger No 1, I asked for a coherent theory of the "deep dark unprecedented in US history conspiracy." and your answer is :

"Look at the old one minimizing the whole sordid Tillman affair.

With no (sic)* conspiracy aside, it's a dark moment in our country's history"

*I assume you meant 'With conspiracies aside'.

I don't dispute that I am old. You got that right.

However, personal insults are not an answer.

Care to try your hand at a coherent theory?

Grammie

Chicken Blogger/O'Mengele, I read it the first time you posted it.

Grammie

# 5 Derka derka derka derka Mohammed jihad. Derka derka derka derka Mohammed jihad. Great Thanks.

#4 derka derka derka Mohammed jihad. derka derka White House in Crisis derka derka jihad. Great Thanks.

# 3 derka derka derka Mohammed jihad Lindsey Lohan. Great Thanks.

# 2 derka derka bakala derka Mohammed jihad. Great Thanks.

#1 Bakala derka derka Jihad Mohammed. derka derka derka derka bakalakdoca jihad. Good night and good luck.

George Bush had the Free Masons kill Pat Tillman. That was their next task after they flew the plannes into the World Trade Center.

Chicken Bloggers/O'Mengele/Whatizname,Nom du Jour, I asked a question.

All the histrionics aside the answer is that you believe he was murdered.

By who and/or ordered by whom?

What is your considered opinion about the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss?

Grammie

Necon deer hunters prefer clustered shots,
Can a patriot's murder be "friendly?" they hope not.
Tillman's a hero, we already knew that,
Even before the White House redrew facts.
How shocking how easy blind justice is blocked.

"no histrionics, please, just your perceptions and citations to back it up."

Noooo! Grammie certainly doesn't believe in 'histrionics'!.....That is, Unless you question her humanity at her own insistance, or if you jokingly imply she might be a groupee. Then you simply won't believe the personal histrionics she can emit in response!

Just the facts please?

Fact: There was a Tillman cover up.

Fact: We were told there were WMD. We went to war over that premise.....There were no WMD!

Fact: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911. He wasn't!

Fact: They were told by one of their top generals that far more troops would be needed. That general was fired for speaking the truth.

Fact: The commander in Chief had no working understanding of Middle Eastern culture, heretage, rivalries, or religion...even as he 'planned' an unnecessary occupation and invasion with no honest justification.

Fact: I could go on and on!

Fact: You defend the indefensible!

Is it a surprise that the Factor doesn't have the balls to admit this Tillman incident makes the Bush Ad look worse than it ever has ?

Posted by: at July 27, 2007 12:31 AM

How exactly? Tillman died in a horrible accident that unfortunately happens a lot in war. The people who tried to cover it up are being punished. Story over. Take off your tin foil hat and stop trying to disgrace Pat Tillman.

If a Democratic Administration was responsible for this Tillman debacle( they wouldn't),
the wingnuts would be screaming from the rafters.

This is just another prime example that exposes their hypocrisy.

You know it's true too.
Posted by: Why do you care what my name is at July 27, 2007 12:13 AM

Posted by: at July 27, 2007 12:43 AM

No actually the Democrats drive tanks into buildings and burn children alive and try to cover it up ( see Janet Reno).

Another group of FACTS for you Grammie:

Had there been no unjustified invasion, there would also have been no Abu Garab, Haditha, or Tillman coverup.....and nearly 4000 Americans would be alive today that unfortunately....are not....and tens of thousands more would be whole today, instead of half!

And the world would be a better place.

Another group of FACTS for you Grammie:

Had there been no unjustified invasion, there would also have been no Abu Garab, Haditha, or Tillman coverup.....and nearly 4000 Americans would be alive today that unfortunately....are not....and tens of thousands more would be whole today, instead of half!

And the world would be a better place.

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 12:50 AM

Yes and Sadam would still have his rape rooms open and his mass graves filled.

mike, guess you haven't heard. Haditha didn't happen. I guess Olbermahn forgot to tell you that.

No actually the Democrats drive tanks into buildings and burn children alive and try to cover it up ( see Janet Reno).

Posted by: The Factor at July 27, 2007 12:50 AM

Don't forget Ruby Ridge.......

Funny thing is that the Factor still doesn't get why he will never be taken seriously.

Posted by: Why do you care what my name is at July 27, 2007 12:53 AM

Yes, my goal in life is to be taken seriously by some zombie who march over here from the Daily Kos because he herd is hero Olbermann was being trashed.

Chicken loggers/O'Mengele/Whatizname,Nom du Jour, this is your answer to the question was he murdered and who ordered his murder:

"It's not disputed that his own men shot Pat.
I don't think it was ordered, but who knows."

At last, finally, we are are on the same page of what constitutes murder as opposed to other actions that cause someones death that is not murder.

Have you ever given a moments thought to the unfortunate soldier/soldiers who were responsible for the friendly fire that killed Pat Tillman.

Or are they expendable as long as they can be used as a cudgel against those who you disagree with?

As I first said, lets leave the histrionics aside.

Grammie

"yes, and Saddam would still have his rape rooms open and his mass graves filled"

And so YOU think that somehow justifies the price we have paid? Some evils are best left alone lest we create a far greater evil, ... and, we are NOT the world's damned policeman!

Just a couple of days ago, a blithering idiot named David Bauder working for the Associated (with terrorists) Press, alleged, with no evidence to support said allegation, that Keith Olbermoronn "dominated" the ratings at 8 p.m. The latest humiliating ratings for Keith "Barely Third Place" Olbermoronn:

Wednesday, July 26, 2007

8PM - P2+ (25-54)

O'Reilly Factor - 2,334,000 viewers (568,000)
Paula Zahn - 444,000 viewers (113,000)
Fast Money - 179,000 viewers (52,000)
Nancy Grace - 593,000 viewers (236,000)
Meltdown w/ Olbermoronn - 561,000 viewers (128,000)

The point is how this incident was used by the Bush Administration for a commercial to drum up support for this war.

Now THAT's the issue YOU won't deal with.

Posted by: Why do you care what my name is at July 27, 2007 12:39 AM

A prime example of BDS. It's Bush, Its Bush, Bush did it, Bush did it! He lied, He lied!

Mike must be angry because one of his "innocent freedom fighter" friends was let out of Gitmo and blew himself up in a crowd in Pakistan. Mike wanted him to sue the U.S. government first.

"It's Bush, It's Bush, Bush did it, Bush did it! He lied, He lied!"

Yea..............He LIED!

Pat Tillman died in Afghanistan.

Anyone care to tell me why they believe that the Battle of Afghanistan was an unnecessary action by the US?

Grammie

Mike must be angry because one of his "innocent freedon fighter" friends was let out of Gitmo and blew himself up in a crowd in Pakistan. Mike wanted him to sue the U.S. government first."

No, I'm mostly angry because so many intransigent deniers such as yourself continue to plant your heels in the mud, cover your ears, and yell YAH YAH YAH in the face of overwhelming evidence concerning reality.

Pat Tillman died in Afghanistan.

Anyone care to tell me why they believe that the Battle of Afghanistan was an unnecessary action by the US?

Grammie

Posted by: Janet Hawkins at July 27, 2007 1:06 AM

That's funnie Grammie. I didn't even notice that these left wing morons thought he died in Iraq. How did Iraq cause his death if he died in Afghanistan?

My mistake Grammie...concerning Tillman, and afghanistan!

How the rational thinkers among us wish we had a president who could bring himself to make a statement like that?

Please post a valid source for this lie.
You can't.
So shut the fuck up.

Posted by: Why do you care what my name is at July 27, 2007 12:59 AM

Her you go, you classy little liberal Olbermahn lovin I can't even say the rest of what I want to say.......I'm sure you will discount the site as invalid or "right wing" but here it is.

http://www.soldiersperspective.us/?p=1002

Mike,

We were not told by Bush that Saddam was behind 911. That is a lie. But now millions of leftists say that Bush was behind 911, instead.

Saddam said that Saddam had WMD's. He did not comply with the UN Security Council Resolutions on WMD's. He had WMD's before. Saddam was the WMD. Had Saddam fully complied with the UN Resolutions he would still be in power today.

It is true that there were too few troops in Iraq. So lets bring some more in right now to take care of business.

There was a coverup of the Pat Tillman death. Everyone who participated in the coverup should be tarred and feathered, if not a lot worse.

The loons who are now stating that Tillman was murdered are jumping the shark, not for the first time. They are the same ones who are saying thing like "911 was the first time that fire ever melted steel".

Chicken Bloggers/O'Mengele/Whatizname/Nom du Jour, you have expended a fair amount of time and rhetoric/invective attacking me but precious little effort backing up your claims.

I have seen references to the Bush ads about Pat Tillman here tonight. I must have missed them. I would appreciate any citations to these ads.

Grammie

Rico, long time since I've seen you here.

Welcome back. Hope you stay around.

Grammie

"It is true that there are too few troops in Iraq. So lets bring in some more right now to take care of business."

WHERE are you going to get them Rico? Everyone knows that trained and equipped troops are already over-extended, and most have been over-deployed.

Where's all the extra armor going to come from even if we find the troops. How are we going to pay for the thousands and thousands of extra up-armored vehicles that will be needed when we are already fighting this war on credit?

Sorry, but this just isn't the kind of mistake in which we have the option of backing up and doing it again the 'right' way.

But back to my original point: The 'right' way would have been not doing it at all!

By the way Rico, as late as the 2004 elections, it was widely reported that over 50% of the American People still believed Saddam was involved in 911. Where did they get this 'information'? What you may call masterful deception, I call a lie.

Chicken Bloggers/O'Mengele/Whatizname/Nom du Jour, you said:

"It's positively amazing how Grammie always asks to be educated on well covered news stories."

Does this mean you that you don't have any citations to this 'well covered news story' of ads?

Grammie

Chicken Bloggers/O'Mengele/Whatizname/Nom du Jour, you said:

"It's positively amazing how Grammie always asks to be educated on well covered news stories."

Does this mean you that you don't have any citations to this 'well covered news story' of ads?

Grammie

Please post a valid source for this lie.
You can't.
So shut the fuck up.

Posted by: biggest loon on the web at July 27, 2007 12:59 AM

Who's asking to be educated? That would be you, prick.

Another question that the right wingers won't touch.
Why was the Pat Tillman incident covered up ?

Because he found out that I planned 9/11 and he had to be killed stupid. Tillman found my super secret oil drilling company in Afghanistan. As a former member of skull and bones, Tillman new the secret code word to get into the Afghanistan base camp. There he learned of my plan to destroy the WTC. KAPLAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Rico 1:16 AM: "but now millions of leftists say Bush was behind 911, instead"

Eart to Rico: It's not just 'Leftist' who are making that claim! In fact, the only two individuals I know personally who make that claim are both fundamentalist Christians, who are EXTREMELY conservative in every way imaginable. One of them happens to be my sister!

In fact, the arguments between me and her can get kind of wierd....if you can imagine ME being in the position of having to defend George Bush!

No Rico, don't fool yourself into believing the 911 conspiratists are all 'leftists', because trust me, that is an outright lie!

But I understand that it's always nice to believe all the nuts are on the OTHER side!

"yes, and Saddam would still have his rape rooms open and his mass graves filled"

This Administration would certainly know this to be true, since they're the ones who gave the means to Saddam and looked the other way while he was using them.

Now, that's character!

O'Reilly Factor - 2,334,000 viewers (568,000)
Paula Zahn - 444,000 viewers (113,000)
Fast Money - 179,000 viewers (52,000)
Nancy Grace - 593,000 viewers (236,000)
Meltdown w/ Olbermoronn - 561,000 viewers (128,000)

Posted by: Tom at July 27, 2007 1:01 AM

Hopefully there was at least 2.3 million viewers tonight to see O'Reilly cut Jane Hall's mic when she was explaining how O'Reilly's website does the same thing the Daily Kos does, making the infamous deplorable BO a first rate hypocrite.

Funny, I've never seen him cut the mic of a conservative guest.

That's Fox's brand of 'Fair and Balanced':

Invite the liberal on, then cut their mic when they say something you don't like.

Nice.

Here we are, after 7 years of Bush W.

It's amazing that there can still exist something like this particular place, where a majority of protagonists still seems to believe that Bush and the Administration fulfilled their promise from back in the the day when they promised to "restore honor and dignity to the White House".

I'm going to visit Olbermannwatch once a week until Nov '08, because it's fascinating to see what bizarre perception of reality some die-hard nuts are apparantly able to develop, ignoring the truth.
The truth is that Bush's disapproval ratings are going where no rating has gone before.

Also... the truth is not really "honor and dignity", is it?

Keep digging, it's fascinating!

- --- - --- - --- - --- -

don't fool yourself into believing the 911 conspiratists are all 'leftists'
------------------------------
You are absolutely correct in this regard, Mike.

Virtually all conspiracy theories of the last two (2) centuries are of the RW, by the RW and for the RW. In our time alone, Roosevelt Starting WWII, the Rosenbergs, Communist Agitators & the Civil Rights Movement, Communist Agitators & the Anti (Vietnam) War Movement, Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, the list could go on, are products and fodder of RW minds.

The true home of the RW is historically the fringe. Without on-going mythological conspiracies they cannot explain why they are consigned to and keep returning to the fringe. Twice since WWII, the RW has tried to legitimize itself, the McCarthy era and the post-Reagan Cheney/Rove legitimacy surge or grab. Both efforts were, in remarkably short order, rejected and repulsed by the American mainstream. We are in the rabid phase of Cheney/Rove radicalism, its tormented death. It is loud and ugly as the RW tries to hold on in vain to what they never actually had in the first place, legitimacy. The genesis of a site such as this reflects this mentality. After all, the concept and the purpose are undeniably negative: an attack upon the livlihood of one rather insignificant person who, for reasons unclear to me, seems to threaten the RW. What has happened, however, is that the mainstream has caused this site to drift from the concept to something more reflective of the mainstream of true American political and social thought. It remains predominantly conservative and will, but the intersection between conservative thought and RW radicalism is a rather small area. So, what you see are coughs and fits, largely in vain, to keep this site from finding its natural position, to the right of, but still in the mainstream.

Virtually every 9/11 conspiracy theorist I have heard is of the black helicopter flying into undeground hangar mentality. In other words, a RW'er. The whole RW thrust is anti-government, yet the RW decided to hitch a ride to legitimacy on a bus driven by an almost unparalleled government expansionist, George W. Bush. No wonder the ride has proven bumpy.

I once heard Ronald Reagan, Jr., speaking of the RW in general, and fundamentalist Christians in particular, say the Republican party hurt itself by offering these elements a comfortable home, by making them welfare recipients of Republican largesse. Why? Nothing is ever enough. The pasta has to have not only the sauce, but cheese, more garlic, dried peppers, olives. The demands are insatiable.

So, the relationship between the RW and the Republican party was more parasitic than symbiotic. The RW loses nothing. Its grab for legitimacy was unsuccessful, so it skulks back to the corner, the fringe. The Republican party, however, is likely damaged for a political generation. So, they now scream, too, although their demise was born of their own greed, a very human condition not unique to them.

As America and, indeed the Republican party washes away the stench of RW radicalism, we have a post-partem rage. "9/11 was the ticket to RW legitimacy. The RW is once again illegitimate. Those opposed to the RW must have stolen 9/11 by making it seem illigitimate." That seems to be the RW thesis or apology. It is as offensive as the RW itself, for 9/11 was an American, not a RW experience. Because it was exploited by the RW, they assume everyone is exploiting it in some fashion and now exploiting it more effectively than they. The stench is simply desperation as the RW sees itelf consigned to yet another half century of marginalization and irrelevancy. The RW needs a good conspiracy theory to satisfy its tormented soul.

The Royalfraud uses one person's opinion on Haditha posted by: nobody gives a shit

Just one, loser? Here's another. There's 1036 more! Lowlife.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/06/haditha_is_mcgirk_the_new_mary.html

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/06/murtha-about-to-get-pummeled-with.html

Paul, et. al., I drink too much for damn Olby. It sets me back days. Arghhhhhh I apologize. I work through the reviews for hours because I want to catch everything he says and then I fall asleep. bleh

Testimony also showed terrorists in strongholds such as Haditha had set up bases in a school, a mosque, and a hospital to be used to attack U.S. forces, and documentation showed that one terrorist suspected in the Haditha battle was tracked by an aerial drone to another house, from which he emerged a short time later holding a baby.

The tragedy, Rooney said, is that Chessani has been sidelined from his work in the war against terror by the allegations, at a time when his leadership could be used well in the battle.

"The terrorists are laughing in their caves," Rooney said. "The enemy knows our rules of engagement as well as we do. They know how to use propaganda better than we do. The whole trial is the result of propaganda."

Chessani is described by fellow officers as a focused, hands-on commander who followed the Law of War and was sympathetic to the plight of innocent Iraqis, the Law Center said. He is a committed Christian with a wife and five children, and has served his nation honorably for more than 19 years with tours of duty in Panama, the first Persian Gulf War and three tours in Iraq.

Thomas More Law Center officials are still raising funds for their battles on Chessani's behalf. They say the reasonable costs of the case – to date – have reached about $325,000 and almost $200,000 has been donated for the cause. A big bump in support came when radio talk-show host Michael Savage added his voice to those concerned about justice.

On his website, he's linked a Charlotte Conservative News report detailing how the Time article was based on information from known insurgents.

Writer Michael Kraft said the Time sources "were known insurgent propagandists and it was [that report] that created the Haditha massacre hoax."

Rooney said not only had Savage personally contributed money but encouraged his audience to do so, adding significantly to the resources available.

Savage told his listening audience he would devote whatever time and resources are necessary to clearing Chessani and then pursuing those who have "persecuted" him. He pledged to hold a fund-raiser for the Chessani family once he is cleared.

halleluiah, clucker. halleluiah.

Virtually all conspiracy theories of the last two (2) centuries are of the RW, by the RW and for the RW. In our time alone, Roosevelt Starting WWII, the Rosenbergs, Communist Agitators & the Civil Rights Movement, Communist Agitators & the Anti (Vietnam) War Movement, Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, the list could go on, are products and fodder of RW minds.

Posted by: Clucker at July 27, 2007 2:31 AM

Anybody else remember the October Surprise Theory?

The theory that the Reagan Administration developed and introduced HIV into the gay and IV drug using population

The theory that the Reagan and Bush Administration developed crack cocaine and introduced into the miniority and/or low income population in order to reduce their numbers.

The theory that President Bush and the CIA ran drugs from Columbia through Mena, Arkansas (President Clinton would have had to play a role in the one).

The original "wag the dog" theory that Reagan took Manuel Noriega into custody in order to detract from the terrorist attack on a U.S. base in Lebanon.

That "rightwing" Oliver Stone and his conspiracy theories

It's called Friendly Fire incidents and the fog of war and it's been going on a long time. Tilmann's death would hardly be the first as a result of Friendly Fire, and yes, the military has a long (and shameful) history of trying to cover them up. The loons act like this was the first time this has ever happened in the history of the United States and any war we've ever been a part of. It's not. It's tragic, shameful, and all of that but it's not unique to this war.

Posted by BillO'Pussy:

"Please die Dumbya,,,"

END QUOTE

Why don't you grow a set of nads and post what you really feel chicken shit. But, wait, this is the boy that is going to piss on Murdoch's grave. What a man you are? Typical liberal candy ass, all talk and no bark, just like Mike, AAP, codas, baldheadedrat, sir lair.......

Dailykos is drafting you into their army that they are threatening to open a can of whip ass. Assuming they are talking about the 35% that support GW. To borrow a phrase from the movie 'Souther Comfort"...."!0 NAtional Guardsmen and one swamp rat, my odds are on the swamp rat".

Well, were waiting.

Chciken shits.

Whines Chicken Clucker:

"Virtually all conspiracy theories of the last two (2) centuries are of the RW, by the RW and for the RW. In our time alone, Roosevelt Starting WWII, the Rosenbergs, Communist Agitators & the Civil Rights Movement, Communist Agitators & the Anti (Vietnam) War Movement, Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, the list could go on, are products and fodder of RW minds."

END QUOTE

You are a dumbass. Only a dumbass liberal judges history especially some chicken shit like you sitting in the safety and comfort of your livingroom chair. You've never served in the military and it's safe to say if Americans were like you over the history of our nation far greater than 200 years we would have been living under the Crown, the swastika and the rising sun. I doubt you are even master in your own sandbox.

Wednesday results in the key demo have Countdown well behind O"Reilly and Nancy Grace. Were it not for lame duck Paula Zahn, Keith would be staring up from the basement.

Countdown ... to last place.

"Roosevelt Starting WWII"

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point. I thinks its clear that FDR pushed for entry into WWII in the way he did to counter the conspiracy of powerful American Wall Street Fascists (i.e. open admirers of Mussolini who had attempted a miitary coup against Roosevelt in 1936) who would have put us into the fight on Hitler's side. By pissing off the Japanese re: their oil supply, FDR prompted the declaration of war against us by the Japanese then the Germans - and the war mentality of the nation forced compliance by the American fascists, effectively castrating them for decades. It must have ben excruciating for Prescott Bush to have to support the war effort against his carefully cultivated business-relationships in the Third Reich.

But they returned with Reagan, however, with much greater patience and a deep hatred for the New Deal and the constituton.

It's called Friendly Fire incidents and the fog of war and it's been going on a long time. Tilmann's death would hardly be the first as a result of Friendly Fire, and yes, the military has a long (and shameful) history of trying to cover them up. The loons act like this was the first time this has ever happened in the history of the United States and any war we've ever been a part of. It's not. It's tragic, shameful, and all of that but it's not unique to this war.

Posted by: Brandon at July 27, 2007 8:39 AM

....and "fragging" is nothing new either. However, in previous wars (primarilly Vietnam) junior officers were killed by those under their command as matters of self-preservation or revenge - non-coms were not killed via orders from the Secretery of Defense in order to stem a potential propaganda disaster.

I said at the time that Rummy had Tillman killed, and I bet that's where this leads.

It's called Friendly Fire incidents and the fog of war and it's been going on a long time. Tilmann's death would hardly be the first as a result of Friendly Fire, and yes, the military has a long (and shameful) history of trying to cover them up. The loons act like this was the first time this has ever happened in the history of the United States and any war we've ever been a part of. It's not. It's tragic, shameful, and all of that but it's not unique to this war.

Posted by: Brandon at July 27, 2007 8:39 AM

....and "fragging" is nothing new either. However, in previous wars (primarilly Vietnam) junior officers were killed by those under their command as matters of self-preservation or revenge - non-coms were not killed via orders from the Secretery of Defense in order to stem a potential propaganda disaster.

I said at the time that Rummy had Tillman killed, and I bet that's where this leads.

SLOB,

You hope.....................................

Just read thru last night's string and i have never seen a more uninformed idiot than that guy mike.

he thinks he is smart but throws out left wing conspiracies and lies repeatredly as if they are facts. is he married to rosie?

and poor grammie and rico try to reason with this idiot.

case and point "bush ties 911 to saddam". He cannot find one citing but comes here day in and day out spews this shit. who is the liar now fruitcake. try google. you won't find it mike. but tomorrow you will com here and say it again. now that is stupidity at its finest.

rico- its useless.

guys like slob are 'guessing and speculating' what happened. Typical liberals, speculation and feelings rather than facts. They should start each post with the line, "I haven't been right yet but my theory is..."

Bunch of dolts.

Ouch- So Tillman's mom says he was purposely killed! Actually murdered. Now thats a reliable source for the facts of the case. Thats all I need to hear to form my opinion.

Does Mike, SLOB, and Olielly have any facts to support this murder theory?

Nah, they keep citing her interview. I think that says it all.

Crackpot item of the day:
I am not making this up! Here is another lie that the lefties like rosie is spewing and you loons are eating up.

Rosie says: Bush Outlaws All War Protest In United States

She may no longer be spreading wild 9-11 conspiracy theories on ABC's The View, but Rosie O'Donnell's still using her blog to push wildly inaccurate theories, like this amazing one under the headline "scary plus":

Bush Outlaws All War Protest In United States

In one of his most chilling moves to date against his own citizens, the American War Leader has issued a sweeping order this week outlawing all forms of protest against the Iraq war.

Say what? On July 17, President Bush issued an Executive Order with the legalese title of "Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization in Iraq." (A bit more rhetorical finesse might have been in order on the headline.) It's meant to try and stop "charitable" aid to Iraqi terrorists. But on Rosie's blog, the commenters are crazed, with lots of "WTF" and "Holy S---" ranting about the end of democracy as we know it. This one's priceless:

Thank you, Rosie. Where else would we learn what is happening in our Gov’t. Not CNN! I love my country…I FEAR my Government - more every day.

Re: Tillman

I hope everyone on this board who seems to take such glee from Ranger Tillman's death understands what they are doing.

Pretending to care so greatly about this Ranger to make a larger political point is fraud. Cpl. Tillman remains dead and this incident is a great shame to the Ranger community. But its hardly a White House issue, its a Army family matter and ultimately that's where it will need to be resolved.

If you hate this war you must convince your politicians to man up and stop it. Trying to angle a US policy change by sainting or demonizing your armed forces is backwards. They fulfill a very specific role - the management of violence.

Want to support the troops? Enlist.

Amen, there is no glee in this hero's death.

Some annon morn said: "Want to support the troops? Enlist."

This is the same kind of narrow thinking that - when applied to other issues- just doesn't make sense. Do I need to run for school board to support education? Do I need to get my MBA to comment on economic issues?

I just don't want people "supporting" the troops like the liberal democrats. You know, like cutting their funding while they're in the field, telling our enemies when we're going to leave, and cozying up to the leaders who support the terrorists.

Some support.

case and point "bush ties 911 to saddam". He cannot find one citing but comes here day in and day out spews this shit. who is the liar now fruitcake. try google. you won't find it mike. but tomorrow you will com here and say it again. now that is stupidity at its finest.

Posted by: ouch at July 27, 2007 10:17 AM

You mean I'm not the only one that noticed he believes everything Olbermahn tells him? He's not alone, slob and Mrs. Philby have the same mentality.

Paul, et. al., I drink too much for damn Olby. It sets me back days. Arghhhhhh I apologize. I work through the reviews for hours because I want to catch everything he says and then I fall asleep. bleh

Posted by: Edward Schatz at July 27, 2007 3:34 AM

A drunk doing Countdown recaps...sums up OW pretty well.

"Invite the liberal on, then cut their mic when they say something you don't like."

You have learned well from Dullbermann. The segment was ending. The show was going to a commercial. He told her two or three times, "We have to go." But she kept talking. O'Reilly didn't give the order to cut the mike. But you wouldn't want to present all the facts, would you?

Rumsfeld killed over 3000 troops,
So what's all this fuss about another dead rube?
Except he was a war poster boy,
with opinions the White House did not employ,
So they fired him, literally, how rude!

I'm not given to cospiracy theories, but you have to admit that if one were looking for one you couldn't find much richer ground than the facts in this case allow. First, there is pretty clearly a coverup. At this point it is said to stop at a (relatively) low level, which is kind of stage B of an unraveling coverup. The person taking the fall is ostensibly being punished, but if you look into it is a pretty lenient, mostly financial punishment that could easily be made up or reversed on the sly. It's kind of a Scooter thing-- a punishment that ensures he has no motive to roll over on anyone.

Then you apparently have a medical examiner on record stating that he does not believe that the physical evidence comports with the story now being told. Hard to square that, but maybe it's just a tough judgement call.

Your victim is a pro-war icon utilized by the administration for propaganda, who apparently had quitetly turned anti-war or anti-administration and was planning to publicize that. Can anyone really imagine a worse pr nightmare for the admin than Tillman coming out and saying it was bogus? If these neocon folks believe the fate of the free world hangs on their war fighting ability, wouldn't that be plenty of motive? They would be trading one life for hundreds of thousands or millions. I can easily see them convincing themselves of that.

All that is to say that there was certainly motive, opportunity, and some odd details that would allow this to be easily written as a neocon conspiracy. Personally, I doubt it, but I don't think it's ridiculous. This one at least has all the elements.

Grammie I don't believe the admin made TV commercials of tillman but I do believe he was a regular staple of Bush speeches at the time.

OlbermannWatch getting sloppy: the REAL "news" we should be concerning ourselves with here:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07272007/gossip/pagesix/letting_go_pagesix_.htm

or the jossip version

http://www.jossip.com/keith-olbermann/disenchanted-olbermann-groupie-finally-bored-of-writing-about-what-a-lousy-lay-he-was-20070727/

Ex-Girlfriends Reassure Olbermann: 'Your Bad In Bed Rep Is Still Safe With Us'

Hehe... 12:02,

Putting "Nypost.com" and "REAL "news"" so close together, in the same sentence no less.

(yes, I saw the quotes in the original post, but sill made me laugh out loud).

ChickenBlogger

The conspiracy angle to Cpl. Tillmans is multi leveled and misleading.

Simply put two different and distinct things happened.

1. A ranger was killed by his own squad. Without getting mired in details the squad ignored SOP (splitting the convoy, ignoring fire discipline.) These mistakes are the core of the issue and a bruise to the legacy of the rangers.

2. Higher decided to ignore Army values and spun a tale. The truth hurts and they probably took this action not to save themselves but the family. Fratricide is a companion of war. You try to minimize it but you accept it as a fact with all other operational risks. This scenario and higher's failure is well discussed in the command community. Fratricide generally happens at the squad or platoon level. As such, command rarely actively covers since punishment at the squad and platoon level is scarce. Its part of the equation. It rains, you get wet.

While the rangers are a elite level of soldier, no one expects they will be the only group in the history of use of arms ever to avoid killing one of their own. No one.

Support our troops. Enlist.

Just to be clear, Sir Loin, I wasn't saying that Roosevelt started WWII. He did not. However, it is a popular conspiracy theory of the RW'ers, along with many other such theories.

The orchestrated smear campaign against the Clintons, by people like Limbaugh, began prior to inauguration. But, Senator Clinton was speaking loosely when she referred to a Vast Right-Wing conspiracy. The smear is just an example of the monolithic thinking characteristic or Republicans and RW'ers, perhaps coupled with frequent ethical lapses.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, and it is almost impossible to identify any true conspiracies. Some near examples:

The gun and weapon manufacturers certainly had a big role in stirring up the pot, in Europe and the US, for what we now refer to as WWI. I suppose that was more of a scheme.

The late 19th century and early 20th century had its price-fixing scandals in rail, steel and oil, but that was more SOP for US monopolies.

Florida 2000 had conspiracy-like qualities, but didn't rise to true conspiracy proportions. More of a cabal ....

Few actual conspiracies exist other than in the dirty little minds of the RW'ers. The reason conspiracies find cold comfort among liberals is not some inherent moral superiority liberals have, but because the liberal mind, if truly liberal, is more drawn to diverse ideas and an amalgamation of those ideas. Conspiracies generally require the willing participation of people joined by a strong dogma. Liberals tend in the opposite direction from dogma. They are heterodox. Conservatives, who by nature are dogmatists and fundamentalist, the true conspiracy theorists. Strict orthodoxy, most recently exemplifed by Bush's "You're Either With Us or You're Against Us." is needed, This site has and some of the posters provide ample evidence of that.

Clucker claims....

"Liberals tend in the opposite direction from dogma."

###
He, he, he, he.

ChickenBlogger, thanks for the info. I missed the story in real time but I remembered later having done some research on it when it came up here some months ago.

It is my experience that the majority of suspected and even common wisdom conspiracy theories rarely hold up. I think ?'s post @1:19 PM will prove to be the truth of the matter. No amount of evidence or lack of evidence will sway the typical see a conspiracy under every rock has to always blame their opponents types.

Grammie

Thisa is the scariest shit ever... Zionist shit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/rapture-ready-the-unauth_b_57826.html

SLOB, do you really see the world this way?

".... I thinks its clear that FDR pushed for entry into WWII in the way he did to counter the conspiracy of powerful American Wall Street Fascists (i.e. open admirers of Mussolini who had attempted a miitary coup against Roosevelt in 1936) who would have put us into the fight on Hitler's side. By pissing off the Japanese re: their oil supply, FDR prompted the declaration of war against us by the Japanese then the Germans - and the war mentality of the nation forced compliance by the American fascists, effectively castrating them for decades. It must have ben excruciating for Prescott Bush to have to support the war effort against his carefully cultivated business-relationships in the Third Reich.

But they returned with Reagan, however, with much greater patience and a deep hatred for the New Deal and the constituton."

What attempted "American Wall Street Fascists (i.e. open admirers of Mussolini who had attempted a miitary coup against Roosevelt in 1936"? I have never heard or read about this and am really curious to know what the basis is.

Do I understand you correctly that you believe FDR deliberately provoked (not how I would characterize the prewar actions to counteract Japan's militant move to hegemony) Pearl Harbor as a political move against those American Fascists that were running amok in the 1930s to put the final nail in the coffin of those behind the failed 'military coup' of 1936?

No doubt Prescott Bush and recalled Ambassador to England Joseph P Kennedy cried together in their beer many a time that their beloved fascists, especially in Germany, were foiled by FDR.

Grammie

Hopefully there was at least 2.3 million viewers tonight to see O'Reilly cut Jane Hall's mic when she was explaining how O'Reilly's website does the same thing the Daily Kos does, making the infamous deplorable BO a first rate hypocrite.

Funny, I've never seen him cut the mic of a conservative guest.

That's Fox's brand of 'Fair and Balanced':

Invite the liberal on, then cut their mic when they say something you don't like.

Nice.

Posted by: at July 27, 2007 2:14 AM

I agree it wasn't right that they cut her mic but she was bloviating (I admit that is a feeble excuse).At the very least he has a Liberal on his show (another feeble excuse).Anyhow I would just love to see Tucker Carlson on countdown or better yet have Keith on Tucker's show.Tucker would embarrass Keith.Just a side thought did you ever wonder why Tucker is never named WPITW.Oh both MSNBC employees but according to Keith that shouldn't matter.

I agree that ?'s version is indeed quite likely, with the caveat that I think it is total bullshit to say that when you are covering up mistakes made by you or your own you are doing it "for the family." Not that people don't tell themselves these kind of pleasant fiction...and often even convince themselves of it. But it's still bull. When it rains, everyone get's wet, but no one thinks it's their fault for refusing to come out of the rain.

Still though, there is the problem that the medical examiners opinion doesn't jibe with anyone's story at this point, right?

"No amount of evidence or lack of evidence will sway the typical see a conspiracy under every rock has to always blame their opponents types."

People believe what they want to believe. Until there is enough evidence on either side to move from belief and hunches to a rationally grounded, evidence based opinion, it's up in the air what happened. As an administration backer, you fully expect that the administration did nothing irregular or underhanded, because that is your prejedice. As an administration critic, Sir Loin will have the opposite expectation.

TO END YOUR WHACKO CONSPIRACY!

The decisions that placed Pat Tillman at exactly the place and exactly the time of his death were made ad hoc, on the spot, at a series of junctures that could not have been controlled, including a vehicle that unexpectedly broke down, one key decision made by an Afghan jinga truck driver and Pat’s own decision (following two on-the-spot decisions by members of his platoon in direct response to a completely unexpected situation) to move forward into the position where he was shot.

Well, ChickenBlogger, I will always put my money on the historical record whether it is sports, weather or politics.

I would have the same reaction for any other admin. And expectation by you, me, SLOB, Whatizname etc is a far cry from people who claim to know (read it here) that Rummy ordered his murder and the subsequent coverup and that no evidence to back them up is proof positive that he did it.

I see a difference here between you, ? and I from them.

Grammie

I leave this link for rational minded people like Grammie and Sharon. Its a medium length read written by someone familiar with both the military and medical fields. He also is not a fan of the current administration and bloviates about other crimes of the administation, so his bias does not affect his analysis.

He puts a lot into perspective about the actual incident AND the events after. It makes the conspiracy people appear simple minded, as they let their political views affect their rationale. I recommend they read it too if they want knowledge rather than propaganda and conjecture.

www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/080806_tillman_files7.shtml

Additionally- (If your not yet sick of my piling on) Tillman was outraged and ired by the War in Afghanistan. Not Iraq. He called the war in Afghanistan illegal. I think that the invasion and ouster of the Taliban after 9/11 is consider a just-cause even in this antiwar environment. So why all this politicizing of a regrettable incident in Afghanistan?

Few actual conspiracies exist other than in the dirty little minds of the RW'ers.

Posted by: Mrs. Philby at July 27, 2007 1:38 PM

Where does Hillary's famous catch phrase "the vast right wing conspiracy" fit in your "Conservatives, who by nature are dogmatists and fundamentalist, the true conspiracy theorists" theory. Just curious.

Benson, thanks for the link. That was quite a read. One of my first impressions was that I wandered into a paranoid world.

I am going to print it (reading on the monitor is not my forte) and read it again later to see if my first impressions changes any.

Thanks,

Grammie

"What attempted "American Wall Street Fascists (i.e. open admirers of Mussolini who had attempted a miitary coup against Roosevelt in 1936"? I have never heard or read about this and am really curious to know what the basis is."

I'm not surprised you've never heard of this.

Google "General Smedley Butler", "Wall Street Coup", or "The Plot to Sieze the White House"

Some venomous ignoramous calling themselves 'Ouch' came on this blog at 10:17 and 10:30 spewing insults concerning posts I had made 8 hours prior to his name calling post implying that I was avoiding debate by claiming "you won't find mike".

First off 'ouch', you never tried to 'find' Mike, did you? I didn't see a single challenge to anything I had ACTUALLY posted from anyone until I came upon your vile name calling post at 10:17.

Second off, 'ouch', I don't live on this board.

Now for some of your challenges:

1) - 'Ouch' asks at 10:30: "Does Mike, SLOB, and O'lielly have any facts to support this murder theory?"

Do you have a reading comprehension problem 'Ouch'? I challenge you to cite one even instance in which I said or even implied that Tillman was murdered! You can't because I never said or wrote anything ot the kind, you moron!
-----------------------------------------------

2) - 'Ouch' misquotes me as saying: "Bush ties 911 to Saddam".

To begin with 'Ouch', when you place someones remarks in quotes, it had better be what they actually said, not something you dreamed up. I did not say "Bush ties 911 to Saddam"! What I SAID was: "They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911", which they DID, over and over again! How many times did they plant the unsubstantiated 'story' that "Mohammed Atta had meetings in Baghdad"?

Every single time Bush said or implied that "they attacked us first", or "we didn't choose this fight" regarding the invasion of Iraq, he was perpertrating and furthering the big lie to the the American people. Because I can't produce an actual quote from Bush saying "Saddam was behind 911" doesn't change the FACT that he and his administration were pushing the lie as hard as they could push it.
----------------------------------------------
3) - 'Ouch tells me to "try google":

All I can say to that Mr. 'Ouch', is if you have just started paying attention now, Google isn't going to help you buddy. Far too many people weren't paying much attention during the run up to the war and that is where much of the disinformation is coming from....on both sides!

Benson,

Thanks for the link. I've passed it on to others to get their opinion.

?

Mike- you look dumber every post-

TO QUOTE YOU EXACTLY-
"Fact: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911. He wasn't!"

Which is not true. You wrote fact in front of it. So prove it dumbass. Oh you can't! But you still come here and say it. Because you are not only dumb but twisted. Facts don't hinder your incorrect assertions.

Linking Al Queda to Iraq is not linking 9-11 to Iraq.

You even stated that because more than 50% of americans believed Saddam was behind 9-11, your theory is correct. A smarter man would conclude that more than 50% of americans are stupid and uninformed. So i stand by my initial post. You are an idiot.

Mike- you look dumber every post-

TO QUOTE YOU EXACTLY-
"Fact: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911. He wasn't!"

Which is not true. You wrote fact in front of it. So prove it dumbass. Oh you can't! But you still come here and say it. Because you are not only dumb but twisted. Facts don't hinder your incorrect assertions.

In other words, "facts are like kryptonite to olbyhaters," another infamous quote from the poster known as "mike."

Additionally- (If your not yet sick of my piling on) Tillman was outraged and ired by the War in Afghanistan. Not Iraq. He called the war in Afghanistan illegal. I think that the invasion and ouster of the Taliban after 9/11 is consider a just-cause even in this antiwar environment. So why all this politicizing of a regrettable incident in Afghanistan?

Posted by: at July 27, 2007 3:43 PM

Complete bullshit. He had been in both theaters, and it was Iraq that he objected to.

TO END YOUR WHACKO CONSPIRACY!

The decisions that placed Pat Tillman at exactly the place and exactly the time of his death were made ad hoc, on the spot, at a series of junctures that could not have been controlled, including a vehicle that unexpectedly broke down, one key decision made by an Afghan jinga truck driver and Pat’s own decision (following two on-the-spot decisions by members of his platoon in direct response to a completely unexpected situation) to move forward into the position where he was shot.

Posted by: benson at July 27, 2007 3:25 PM

Nobody said he needed to be killed at that exact spot. Rummy could have slipped a "wet boy" or two into Tillman's unit to terminate him at the first opportunity - preferrably under some kind of fire so you all would be able to rest comfortably with the assurrances of ignorance supplied by "the fog of war".

..and don't blame us for the "conspiracy theories"; this is what you get when you combine a really strange set of information with a solid wall of "executive privilege".

Fact: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911. He wasn't!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 12:40 AM

SLOB- your 10:44 post would look differently if you read the link from Benson at 3:32.

Conclusion- no high level conspiracy but another example of bumbling by some lowere level in the military.

SLOB, I took a walk through the three phrases (?) you suggested.

That definitely answered most questions that I could have reasonably asked you.

You are so far out there with conspiracy theories that I seriously doubt that there is a 'there' there.

Even successful conspiracies rarely remain completely and permanently sub rosa. Witness the slowly emerging still very tenuous allegations and evidence that Edward VIII was a Nazi sympathizer to the point of some collusion and that was what drove the Constitutional crisis that led to his abdication.

Yet you seem to believe that Prescott Bush was part of a cabal that attempted a FASCIST MILITARY COUP against FDR in 1936 and it has been so successfully covered up that you are one of the very few to know about it.

Are you the President and CEO of Conspiracies Unlimited? :)

Grammie

I have come to the conclusion SLOB is Rosie O. No other explanation. Dumb as a suitcase full of rocks AND batshit crazy.

Yet you seem to believe that Prescott Bush was part of a cabal that attempted a FASCIST MILITARY COUP against FDR in 1936 and it has been so successfully covered up that you are one of the very few to know about it.

Grammie,

No time for spoon feeding; you really should learn how to use your computer better. I did get the date wrong, it was '34, not '36; but still; if you really had tried you would have found loads regarding the coup -promoted by the Morgans and the Mellons, and foiled by General Smedley Butler - and the subsequent Senate hearings held to examine the affair.

Memory holes are everywhere.

- as for Prescott Bush, I've not seen him personally implicated, although his firm Brown Brothers - Harriman certainly was. Prescott was involved in building the Nazi war machine through Fritz and August Theissen, a financier and steel industrialist hooked in with Hitler.

Prescott's assetts were temporarilly frozen pending hearings by what was to become HUAC because of these dealings.

Ouch, you sound exactly like Robert Cox, who seems to believe that calling most Americans 'stupid' somehow makes himeslef look smarter and imbellishes his own arguments.

If in fact, over 50% of Americans are stupid, as you say they are, then the president was pertpetuating a lie himself when he intentionally fed that ignorance and made no attempt whatsoever to dispell the myth.

I stand behind my FACT: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911."

And, oh yea 'Ouch', calling someone as idiot doesn't make you smart. It is nothing more than a prop that makes you look smaller yourself.

Now I challenge you once again and go back and find any post where I claimed, or even implied that Tillman was murdered???

"No comments allowed" on the Cheney Undergoes Surgery article on the huffpo. Can't imagine why.......

Fact: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911. He wasn't!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 12:40 AM

Jeff, you want to tell me what your purpose was when you requoted (twice) the correct quote that I had already quoted in my own 4:27 post.

Was it simply to emphasize my own point that 'Ouch' had misquoted me? Thank you Jeff!

Or is it that you still haven't learned the meaning of quotatuion marks?

Another thing Jeff...YOU calling SLOB "as dumb as a suitcase full of rocks" is one of the funniest things I've seen you post yet. SLOB sounds like a virtual Einstein when compared to you.

I don't agree with SLOB on eveything, but he has a grasp of history and historical context that is so far above your head, you couldn't reach it with the Space Shuttle! On the other hand, your perspective never rises above that of an elementary school stupid.

You seem to have accepted 'Ouch's' faux theory that calling someone else dumb makes you smarter.......LOL

ROFLMAO: Jeff calling SLOB "dumb as a suitcase full of rocks"!.....Sorry, but I just can't stop laughing over that one!

Jeff, do you even realize you are quoting Olbermann??

SLOB, I did use each of the three terms you provided. Many of the hits (is that the right word) seemed to overlap. Not only did I check one or two from each but I also went to one embedded link inside one article I read.

Did I research, read and study as if I were preparing for the most important exam in my life? No!

I used Prescott Bush in this sentence "Yet you seem to believe that Prescott Bush was part of a cabal that attempted a FASCIST MILITARY COUP against FDR in 1936 and it has been so successfully covered up that you are one of the very few to know about it. " because you brought him up in your first post and both GWB's grandfather and father were objects of interest in at least one of the articles I read.

Scratch the Bushes and my earlier reference to the scion of the Kennedy Dynasty and I still stand by my response. We, surprise surprise, approach life from such different angles and points that anyone who postulated that we are different species would have at least a weakly defensible argument.

If your conspiracy is correct why hasn't politically powerful people been quiet about it for over 70 years?

Sorry, scratch that. I shudder to think what new conspiracies that might dredge up. :)

Grammie

BTW, I haven't seen an answer to my question to you on the July 25 thread.

"...is a far cry from people who claim to know (read it here) that Rummy ordered his murder and the subsequent coverup"

I didn't see anyone claiming such knowledge. I thought Sir Loin just said something like "I think Rummy very likely had him killed..." I'm not going to comb through the transcript.

There are multiple versions of the events that occured, and seemingly none that actually fits all the known facts. There is supposed to have been enemy fire, but there is apparently no physical evidence of enemy fire. Tillman is supposed to have been shot from much further off than the medical examiner suggests. Military sources altered or covered up the story, supposedly for the good of the family, but whether that motive is true or the only one we really don't know. And Bush wants to invoke Executive privilege on the pr side.

I wouldn't say anything's really off the table here. If I had to guess I'd say the friendly fire was somehow worse than indicated (either a more egregious screwup or intentional) and the Administration had some internal discussion of Tilman's pr value that they don't want public. I don't think it would go to "conspiracy theory" level to even think that they might have taken some actions to help the investigation come to more favorable pr conclusions. Obviously military on the ground tried to do that.

But we can clearly admit that we don't know, and short of something shocking in the inquiry, aren't likely to know.

Where does Hillary's famous catch phrase "the vast right wing conspiracy" fit in your "Conservatives, who by nature are dogmatists and fundamentalist, the true conspiracy theorists" theory. Just curious.

--------------

You indolent, illiterate, infantile, ignominious, insolent ignoramus, the subject of which you write and whine was specifically addressed in the post to which you object. You don't ever read anything, do you? I bet you don't even read your irrelevant, interminable, intolerable cut and paste compendiums. You wander upon a single word or phrase, seize it, secrete some silly, simplistic, spurious summary while assuming the astonishished assemblage as asinine as you. Be gone, Monsieur Royale, I say: Be Gone! No one has time for your paltry pittances, nor does anyone desire your odious opinions. Be gone, I say once more: Be gone!

'Ouch', I'm still waiting for you to point out where I EVER either implied or stated that Tillman was murdered?

Or do you just revel in calling other people 'idiots' while in the process of exibiting your own stupidity?

RK, as Cecelia noted recently you do seem to have the ability to roil the natives to fever pitch.

They simultaneously declare you irrelavant while compulsively escalating their invective and use of the blogosphere to you.

I don't know what gets their panties and jock straps in such a bunch but keep up the good work! :)

Grammie

Grammie

You obviously never had the role of picking your team in baseball or basketball.

Or do you just revel in calling other people 'idiots' while in the process of exibiting your own stupidity?
------------------------------------------
Mike:

There are people who resemble that remark, you know.

Clucker, don't expect any type of a self introspective awakening by Jeff. It isn't going to happen.

Jeff is the site's ignorant, but obstinate right wing pest, and I will wager he will remain so.

I'm still can't stop laughing about Jeff reposted an accurate quote I made TWICE, effectively proving my own argument.

What goes on in that feeble little mind?.....Only Jeff knows for sure!

"you obviously never had the role of picking your own team in baseball or basketball"

LOL!

Oh dear, I have been searching both Amy Vanderbilt's and Miss Manners' books of etiquette and I can't find the proper response to Nom du Jour's "Fuck em'.".

Is that some mindless tribal native thing? :)

Grammie

I have been searching both Amy Vanderbilt's and Miss Manners' books of etiquette ....
--------------------------------------------------
I can't answer your question, but I applaud your choice of reading materials. We're never too old to improve ourselves. When you finish, might you lend the books to Cecelia?

To the overwrought, as usual, "Name": I wonder how this impacts your opinion of the Johnson administration who also was plagued with accusations of "friendly fire" deaths and coverups by the military. Oh, that's right, Democrats are never wrong in your book are they? The Tilman family should be grateful they have gotten answers about their loved one's death, many from prior wars never have, but I don't see you throwing a hissy about that, just about this ONE incident in this ONE war, which just happens to coincide with a a GOP president. So telling.

Jeff, do you even realize you are quoting Olbermann??

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 5:52 PM

Does your "beautiful" and "intelligent" wife have to draw you a map to your bathroom? To answer your question, it's called "parody." Layman's terms, yes, I knew I was using Olbermahns words, that was the point of the "parody" this is Olbermann watch, you know......

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators."

....and, once again, why was Tillman's body stripped on the scene and his uniform and armor burnt on the scene?

Or do you just revel in calling other people 'idiots' while in the process of exibiting your own stupidity?

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 6:31 PM

And, oh yea 'Ouch', calling someone as idiot doesn't make you smart. It is nothing more than a prop that makes you look smaller yourself.

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 5:39 PM

Fact: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911. He wasn't!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 12:40 AM

I stand behind my FACT: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911."

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 5:39 PM

The Tilman family should be grateful they have gotten answers about their loved one's death, many from prior wars never have, but I don't see you throwing a hissy about that, just about this ONE incident in this ONE war, which just happens to coincide with a a GOP president. So telling.

Posted by: Brandon at July 27, 2007 7:32 PM

Grateful for lies? Are you saying they should have been grateful for the first fiction they were provided through the media that had their son dying while leading a charge up a hill into enemy fire? Such a story might be a comfort when recieved by a bereived family- until they get the clear picture that it represents an intentional lie.

In previous wars there often WERE NO ANSWERS to such questions. The "fog of war" was much more real then. Today we have satellites and helmet-cams and GPS tracers and cell-phones and.... and the result IS and SHOULD BE more information.

And when that information indicates the potential that a horrid crime may have been committed, then more information should be sought.

The motives of people who obstruct the exchange of such information are automatically and quite correctly brought into question.

Jeff keep right on making my original point over and over again with a quote I will gladly stand behind all day long. I don't have a clue why he's doing it? There is certainly nothing extreme about understanding the FACT that George Bush intentionally mislead the American public in the lead up to the Iraq War, which is simply another form of a lie.

And Jeff, if the "dumb as a box of rocks" remark was intended as a 'parody' on your part, I guess that means you didn't really mean SLOB was dumb?

Not a peep about Johnson.....

Please don't push this one, Mike - I earnestly HOPE rk thinks I'm stupid. Otherwise I must be doing something horribly wrong.

Fact: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911. He wasn't!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 12:40 AM

I stand behind my FACT: They repeatedly implied Saddam was behind 911."

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 5:39 PM

Posted by: royalking at July 27, 2007 7:49 PM

"about this ONE incident in this ONE war"...

An example of how some right wingers dismiss this little ole war as if it were expected and routine that we start unnecessary wars!
---------------------------------------------
"which just happens to coincide with a GOP president"....

It didn't just HAPPEN to 'coincide' with this GOP president! THIS particular GOP president started an unnecessary war with implied lies and misinformation.

Wars don't just 'happen', Brandon!...They are created or prevented depending on whether our leader is a reckless despot, like the one we have, or a true leader and statesman!

Please don't push this one, Mike - I earnestly HOPE rk thinks I'm stupid. Otherwise I must be doing something horribly wrong.

Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at July 27, 2007 8:14 PM

This coming from someone who thinks Puko Chavez and Castro are good men. I am guessing he was fond of Saddam, too. Probably has OBL posters in his house.

Not a peep about Johnson.....

Posted by: royalking at July 27, 2007 8:12 PM

What do you want to hear about him? That he was the heir to a powerful and promising progressive legacy, but squandered it all through his subscription to 19th century ideals of manhood nationalist military identity? That he succummed to the playground taunting that he was going to be the pussy who "lost Vietnam" if he didn't escallate a preposterous occupation of a recently invented ally's territory? That the fundamental absurdity of the war that he was pestered and frightened into intensifying caused his administration to clamp down on external input in regard to the decisions they made?

These things are all valid interpretations of Johnson's policies, and they shattered the Democratic party and caused a sitting president to forgo a re-election attempt.

Yeah, presidents from Texas are a bad idea.

Wars don't just 'happen', Brandon!...They are created or prevented depending on whether our leader is a reckless despot, like the one we have, or a true leader and statesman!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 8:20 PM

Nice catch, Mike. The allusion to such "passive causation" in American history is always a red-flag which can be followed to the hiding place of some national crime or perfidy.

For instance - from a highschool text book: "...but in 1956, the national reunification elections (in Vietnam) failed to occur, and the United States moved to support the south". One must ask how a thing "fails to occur".

To be sure, there are friendly fire incidents in combat. During Johnson's and Nixon's terms, there were firendly fire incidents. And, as I recall, officials were none to willing to share information about those incidents. That's unfortunate. Families deserved better. But, we rather have just the opposite in Iraq and Afghanistan during Bush's reign, don't we? I'm not willing to conclude that the Tillman incident was "pure" classical friendly fire, but I am also not prepared to prove that it was anything but friendly fire. So, if we assume that the Tillman incident was friendly fire, but covered up, we still have to deal with the fact that his death was shamelessly, cravenly and crassly exploited by an Administration desparately looking for heroes, real, manufacutured or imaginary, to sell a war the American public wasn't buying. Add deception to the list if the Administration knew the circumsatnces, as it apparently did. In itself, that is unforgiveable, but not without precedent during Bush's reign. Jessica Lynch (or as Cheney believes, Jessica Simpson)? This same rush to make a heroine where one did not exist. The exploitation of men and women to whom we owe so much.

I pray that the Tillmans get the peace of mind they deserve. For me personally, the friendly fire issue is not that important. What is important is the Bush Administration's eagerness to use a young man's death to further its policy objectives. That is very, very low indeed, but in keeping with the baseness and coarseness of this hideous reign. It is also a clear example of how Bush, his Administration and so many of the über-Bushies hold the men and women serving us in such sheer contempt.

presidents from Texas are a bad idea.
-------------------------------------------
Johnson was flawed, but without him, no Civil Rights Act, no Voting Rights Act. America would be a much worse place. That's not to defend presidents from Texas. As a Texan, I can say I support a Constitutional amendment to ban Texans and Californians from being President.

Wars don't just 'happen', Brandon!...They are created or prevented depending on whether our leader is a reckless despot, like the one we have, or a true leader and statesman!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 8:20 PM

World War l and World War ll were "created?" Korean War was "created?"

I pray that the Tillmans get the peace of mind they deserve. For me personally, the friendly fire issue is not that important. What is important is the Bush Administration's eagerness to use a young man's death to further its policy objectives. That is very, very low indeed, but in keeping with the baseness and coarseness of this hideous reign. It is also a clear example of how Bush, his Administration and so many of the über-Bushies hold the men and women serving us in such sheer contempt.

Posted by: Clucker at July 27, 2007 8:39 PM

A perfectly reasonable perspective; but my "gut" still tells me they killed him to shut him up.

"Johnson was flawed, but without him, no Civil Rights Act, no Voting Rights Act. America would be a much worse place."

Absolutley. But Johnson himself lamented how much he could have accomplished had he not allowed himself to become embroiled in Vietnam. If the Democrats had been able to hold together behind a rational platform there may never had been a Nixon or a Ford adminisration, and Dick Cheney might have died in a drunk tank in Wyoming in the late '70's.

Yes Jeff, to ignor your simplistic implied fallacy that the circumstances of those three wars had any relevance to this one, ....yes, they were created....by someone!

World War l and World War ll were "created?" Korean War was "created?"

Posted by: royalking at July 27, 2007 8:45 PM

What; you think they were all pre-ordained and that FDR and Truman just danced around on God's puppet strings? Our participation/reactions to global events determined and characterized our participation.

That's not to defend presidents from Texas. As a Texan, I can say I support a Constitutional amendment to ban Texans and Californians from being President.

Posted by: Clucker at July 27, 2007 8:43 PM

No offense intended by the Texas crack - Austin fucking rocks!

I do wish, Mike, that people who support our involvement in the Occupation of Iraq would have the intellectual honesty to admit that it is very difficult to draw comparisons between the Occupation and any of the earlier wars or conflicts. Closer, I suppose, to Vietnam, particularly in that both are unfortunate intrusions into another nation's civil war, but even that breaks down. It would be convenient to make comparisons, but the parallels just don't exist.

As America and, indeed the Republican party washes away the stench of RW radicalism, we have a post-partem rage. "9/11 was the ticket to RW legitimacy. The RW is once again illegitimate. Those opposed to the RW must have stolen 9/11 by making it seem illigitimate." That seems to be the RW thesis or apology. It is as offensive as the RW itself, for 9/11 was an American, not a RW experience. Because it was exploited by the RW, they assume everyone is exploiting it in some fashion and now exploiting it more effectively than they. The stench is simply desperation as the RW sees itelf consigned to yet another half century of marginalization and irrelevancy. The RW needs a good conspiracy theory to satisfy its tormented soul.

Posted by: Clucker at July 27, 2007 2:31 AM

It's interesting after reading this silly polemic in which Olbermann Watchers are stood up next to Joe McCarthy and the civil rights struggles in this country sans any other context than that Joe was a Republican and the gun-revering bible belt went Republican (must be racism!)... to now read a piece about Moveon.org gathering the troops on to assault FOX News Channel's advertisers.

There's always that elitist air of the sort of self-congratulation one might see in an ostrich telling itself "I don't see anything".

It's the ole " the right is extremist, marginal, or dead" screed we periodically see here, they always seem like a flurry of fringe bats in a dance of garlic and crucifixes that speaks more of self-immolation.

That the Democratic Convention reel of 1968 is used like a football film of what not to do, seems to be forgotten.

Read the usual bizarre paranoid post here from any one of their number about Bush polls and accusations that you aren't the TRUE American and you immediately think of that line from My Cousin Vinny, "Oh, yeah, and you blend"...

Well, they don't blend, of course, and it's a sure bet they be asked to put on a clean t-shirt, brush their teeth, and keep quiet, the closer we get to an election in a way that the prayer in school, intelligent design, and God doesn't want gays to marriage folks will not be, as Dem leaders struggle to see how far they can kiss up to the majority-- "extremists" .... who believe such things, without alienating their elite ostrich.

That we had is a political landscape that turned into an equally draw line down the middle of America has been a victory in of sorts, there's doubt. We have what the left describe as the poor ignorant masses of white folks who were taught tribalism, racial bigotry at their mother's knee, and the liaise-faire capitalist corporate masters who seek to to exploit the situation, even as the regional rednecks suck at the tit of the taxpayer.

They on the other hand have the diverse teaming masses yearning to be free and to be given a leg up in a country where it takes heavy piggy-backing....don't ya know....to get you up and around the rednecks who wish to come between you and drinking that five buck cup of coffee at Starbucks with the "intellectual" egalitarians, who know what's best for you, while they sit in the twill chairs reading the New York Times and kicking themselves from having referred to a "film" as a "movie" the night before.

I don't think you can call it a community. It's more a aggregate of factions, interests, and advocates and complaint groups, many of which hold conservative views but have been taught at their teacher's knee to believe, as Shelby Steele calls it, in that panacea of govt mandated exceptionalism and the cold philanthropy of the magistrate as the salvation from a very real struggle.

So it's been pretty well a stand-off between the left and the right, until the war which has pissed off a lot of the libertarians in the red west part of the map who have always shuttered at the cold magistrate.

But don't mistake this as meaning that you "look like America". You don't, nor do you wish too. You're like the college student with the cool long hair, who looked up in the bar and was horrified to discover that the look had caught on among the truck drivers. You'd be at mall salon in less than three seconds...

Oh, you've had the "well-educated" media on your side for generations. Newsweek's Howard Fineman calls this the American Media Party and though the years the old rougher Democratic Party, that DID look like America conformed itself to the AMP.

It's been bad for you. It weakened you. And it caused the alternative media with it's large popular appeal to spring up.

It's kept you feeling a bit like aliens in your own country as there were set backs in the revolution for our own version of democratic socialism and secularism found in Europe.

Oh, you've managed to engage in the argument that traditionalists, who fight to hold on to tradition are the BOTH the radicals and reactionaries. You've been amusing with the having it all ways argument that any advances in society which were heralded by our traditionalist fathers, who would find your views very alien indeed, are the workings of the left, simply by the fact that they herald change.

You've argue this of course while fending off any sort of change midst a Europe that IS re-evaluating it's social system.

So, yeah, we'll take it under advisement that the right is marginal to DOA and that you are the real America. But we'll engage in a few guffaws as we read the the posts from your real Americans here.

Yeah, we'll read the screeds here and your self-proclamations but we'll do it with the deep understanding that we know and you indubitably know that you wouldn't be caught dead at at the watering hole standing next to the Real America.

Unless that Real American believes you, hallelujah!, are his only ticket to anywhere and it's an election year.

Even then you'd sit at distance, smiling and patronizing.

Grammmie,

This is a poll questions I've been taking for a coupld of years, to see if it's just regional and/or generational.

Were you sent (forced) to attend the little sessions, headed at the church or the home of the well-heeled widow or liac "old maid" and taught tablemanners and "the social graces"?

Mine was Miss Mary Evelyn... I sttill have the occassional nightmare... :D

Cecelia, no. I was however sent to ballroom dancing classes at a retired ladies home that included instruction in 'social graces'.

Also, I attended a private all girl prep school. About a 1/4 of the students boarded. Every year there were several Saturday seminars in posture, the lady like way to sit, proper forms of address and respect to elders and people of authority, etc.

I would say it probably is both regional and generational.

I hadn't thought about any of that in many years. I would guess that that has pretty well died out now, mores the pity.

Grammie

We're down to one page out of 5 at this site that isn't smeared with spam.

---------------

It is amazing isn’t it? I’ve never seen a site so bombarded. I realize Mr. Cox is still otherwise engaged atop Mount Rushmore, and Señor Dollares usually says it’s liberals sabotaging the site (RW conspiracy theories, again). Still, even the far, far RW sites don’t seem to have this problem. LAck of interest, poor maintenance, I suppose.

Cecelia, I forgot to ask. What have you found out?

To this day I use mam and sir when addressing anyone other than family or friends who are past their teens. And woe to anyone in my family that didn't rise when an adult entered the room or stopped at your table in a restaurant. It was a very different world.

Grammie

http://www.cobbonline.com/1933coup.html

Hey Grammie; this is too weird. I just found this new (07/23) link to a BBC story on the (oops) 1933 coup attempt made on FDR. What a coincidence!

Sadly, I cant seem to get the thing to play, so I haven't seen the story, but the blurb states that a new Britsh document gives us details we never had about this incident!

In fact, the blurb mentions PRESCOTT BUSH as being implicated; the first time I've seen that confirmed.

Isn't it funny we were just discussing this>

...Grammie, if you could watch this FDR coup story and fill me in on it I would be grateful. Thanks.

Oh, and Cecelia - how much have you had to drink?

The bbc! I'm sure they got all of their facts straight.......

SLOB, I had no problem getting it to play.

However, it is a half hour and I don't see a transcript. I have listened to it once but plan on listening to it again tomorrow.

Why don't you try it again.

Grammie

Wars don't just 'happen', Brandon!...They are created or prevented depending on whether our leader is a reckless despot, like the one we have, or a true leader and statesman!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 8:20 PM

World War l and World War ll were "created?" Korean War was "created?"

Posted by: royalking at July 27, 2007 8:45 PM

Yes Jeff, to ignor your simplistic implied fallacy that the circumstances of those three wars had any relevance to this one, ....yes, they were created....by someone!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 8:57 PM

This needed to be put together to see the stupidity of a certain olbyloon. Spin and wiggle all in one "simplistic" sentence. By his "logic," Woodrow Wilson, FDR and Truman were all "reckless despots!" I'm sure he will accuse me of "implying" fallacy, again. Unbelievable. Have I already said that?

Cecelia, I forgot to ask. What have you found out?

To this day I use mam and sir when addressing anyone other than family or friends who are past their teens. And woe to anyone in my family that didn't rise when an adult entered the room or stopped at your table in a restaurant. It was a very different world.

Grammie

Posted by: Janet Hawkins at July 27, 2007 10:20 PM

It seems that the sort of training at the hands of the steel magnolia is gone, so it is generational, I suppose.

My daughter's generation could take a course in school that broached the suject of manners via business etiquette.

You went to the graduate school of "the social graces", Janet.

I hate the term "social graces" because it sounds prissy and it really doesn't reflect the sort of genteel but essentially earthy commonsense that the Miss Mary Evelyns' of the world had in spades.

NOW, we have the "lifestyle" substitute for --- the social graces--- Madison's Ave shiny coin-based counterfeit for the ole human truths.

THEN, it WAS stand up straight, smile, use the proper fork, act like you're wearing silk (even if it's just clean cotton), and always put others ahead of yourself.

For the most part they practiced it.

Cecelia,

Let me demonstrate how I was brought up right, too.

Hey Grammie, how's those pom-poms, Baby?

Oh, and Cecelia - how much have you had to drink?

Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at July 28, 2007 1:08 AM

Would that you had THAT excuse, right... :D

Cecelia,

Let me demonstrate how I was brought up right, too.

Hey Grammie, how's those pom-poms, Baby?

Posted by: Rico at July 28, 2007 1:58 AM

You sure were, Rico.

You know that Prep School girls always have a soft-spot for the bad boy... :D

What the hell is Jeff talking about ?

I guess if you take it as unintentional humor, it can be quite entertaining !

Posted by: Bob at July 28, 2007 1:51 AM

Wouldn't expect you to understand, being a "perfesser" and all........

Jeff: "By his "logic", Woodrow Wilson, FDR, & Truman were all "reckless despots!""

ROFLMAO!

Every now and then, Jeff gives us a very insightful peek into how this simpleton's brain functions. It's really difficult to believe that an adult human could be so dull as to misread simple English THAT badly, but the proof is in the pudding.

Jeff, you THOUGHT you asked me a loaded rhetorical question and I 'bit', ....but you totally misunderstood my answer. I UNDERSTAND that you don't even know what I'm talking about, but trust me Jeff, everyone else does!

Jeff, if you were just a LITTLE bit smarter, you would have been expressing outrage because you thought I was comparing George Bush to Hitler, Hirohito, and Kim II-Sung (instead of FDR, Wilson, and Truman). Even then, you would have missed my point entirely, ....but you would not have looked QUITE so stupid in the process!

RK, as Cecelia noted recently you do seem to have the ability to roil the natives to fever pitch.

They simultaneously declare you irrelavant while compulsively escalating their invective and use of the blogosphere to you.

I don't know what gets their panties and jock straps in such a bunch but keep up the good work! :)

Grammie

Posted by: Janet Hawkins at July 27, 2007 6:33 PM

If Karl Rove and Bill O'Reilly started posting here, I guarantee you that Mike, Clucker, and company would be more interested in insulting RK.

Cecelia, you've got that right.

However, Rico was actually a perfect gentleman because he made a point to remember a little exchange and mention. The essence of good manners a la Steel Magnolias.

Grammie

"If Karl Rove and Bill O'Relly started posting here, I guarantee you the Mike, Clucker, and company would be more interested in insulting RK."

Cecelia, I'm just curious......When Jeff completely misunderstands something that is posted, and then responds accordingly, why are you and Grammie so tempted to 'attaboy' him for doing that? It's obvious that he literally worships both of you, and therefore derives great comfort from any encouragement given from either of you.

Contrary to your assertion above, I'm not interested in 'insulting' anyone at all.....even Jeff. However, Jeff seems to delight in being a troll. He regularly disrupts what are occasionally some very insightful conversations by inserting uncalled for insults based on a single word or a sound bite taken totally out of context from a much larger post. Of course, you already know this.

He clearly isn't interested or even capable of any real debate. He seems to enjoy pulling people's chains, and that makes him every bit as irritating to me as the 'Viagra' spam that someone is intentionally trying to disrupt this site with.....or as irritating as Brandon is to you! :)

Without mentioning any names, there ARE some people who post on this site who makes me feel quite humbled with their historical insight and command of the issues....on BOTH sides.

Many times, I just like to sit back and read all the the comments and counter - comments without being tempted to become involved myself....and then Jeff comes along and completely derails the discussion. He does seem to have a rare 'gift' for getting on people's nerves that is hard to define.

It actually is hillarious at times, ....but at other times, it is just extremely irritating. I'm very aware that I should be ignoring him entirely, but it really does mystify me why YOU would want to continue to encourage this kind of behavior?

Just curious!

That said, how do we know Karl Rove or Bill O'Reilly aren't actually posting on this blog? :)

It actually is hillarious at times, ....but at other times, it is just extremely irritating. I'm very aware that I should be ignoring him entirely, but it really does mystify me why YOU would want to continue to encourage this kind of behavior?

Just curious!

That said, how do we know Karl Rove or Bill O'Reilly aren't actually posting on this blog? :)

Posted by: Mike at July 28, 2007 4:17 AM

YOU spend the amount of time you do in engaging RK and then ask someone else why they're encouraging him?

RK is not even close to being the sort of sniper/ankle-biter Anonyloon or Nom du Jour we see here.

Oh, and Cecelia - how much have you had to drink?

Posted by Sir Loin of Beef at July 28, 2007 1:08 AM

-----

Thanks for asking. She did seem plastered last night. I couldn't make sense of anything she slurred out.

Wars don't just 'happen', Brandon!...They are created or prevented depending on whether our leader is a reckless despot, like the one we have, or a true leader and statesman!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 8:20 PM

World War l and World War ll were "created?" Korean War was "created?"

Posted by: royalking at July 27, 2007 8:45 PM

Yes Jeff, to ignor your simplistic implied fallacy that the circumstances of those three wars had any relevance to this one, ....yes, they were created....by someone!

Posted by: Mike at July 27, 2007 8:57 PM

This needed to be put together to see the stupidity of a certain olbyloon. Spin and wiggle all in one "simplistic" sentence. By his "logic," Woodrow Wilson, FDR and Truman were all "reckless despots!" I'm sure he will accuse me of "implying" fallacy, again. Unbelievable. Have I already said that?

Posted by: royalking at July 28, 2007 1:43 AM

Jeff, you THOUGHT you asked me a loaded rhetorical question and I 'bit', ....but you totally misunderstood my answer. I UNDERSTAND that you don't even know what I'm talking about, but trust me Jeff, everyone else does!

Posted by: Mike at July 28, 2007 2:37 AM

Jeff, if you were just a LITTLE bit smarter, you would have been expressing outrage because you thought I was comparing George Bush to Hitler, Hirohito, and Kim II-Sung (instead of FDR, Wilson, and Truman). Even then, you would have missed my point entirely, ....but you would not have looked QUITE so stupid in the process!

Posted by: Mike at July 28, 2007 2:57 AM

So Mike, How does reality look from the bottom of a bottle?

Jeff: "Then, he must have been pissed because I made him eat his words and continues with tis "drivel.""....

Wow!....Until coming to this site, I had never communicated with anyone who so proud of their own stupidity and ignorance that they would repost it two and three times for eveyone to see.

When Bob immediately asked you what the hell you were talking about, it should have clued you in to the fact that my post had whizzed right over your head.

ROFLMAO!

And Puck, when you speak gibberish out there in real life.....like you do on this blog, does anyone take you seriously out there?

"mike", when "bob" asked his stupid question I immediately knew you were nailed. It was a feeble attempt at defending you and diverting from YOUR words.

Thanks for asking. She did seem plastered last night. I couldn't make sense of anything she slurred out.

Posted by: Clucker at July 28, 2007 11:02 AM

I haven't been anywhere close to intoxicated in years, but god knows I should have taken typing instead of all those physics courses...

Thanks for always taking the high road...

Mike claims rk "misunderstood" him, but, I see nothing where he tries to explain where he "misunderstood" him, as he claims. Looks to me that rk was right about his interpretation of Mikes words. It's all right there in black and white. Good call, rk.

These RW'ers at this site are in a class of their own)
Dementia : 101

Posted by: Why do you care what my name is at July 28, 2007 11:23 AM

I think you're in exactly the sort of class/spirit you deserve.

Cecelia, you didn't expect anything different from the ol' Mrs. R. Philby/rudy, did you?

Posted by: Mike at July 28, 2007 2:37 AM

Really? "Everyone?" Remember what happened last time you tied to speak for anyone, but, yourself? You failed, miserably.

Cecelia, you didn't expect anything different from the ol' Mrs. R. Philby/rudy, did you?

Posted by: Mike at July 28, 2007 2:37 AM

Really? "Everyone?" Remember what happened last time you tied to speak for anyone, but, yourself? You failed, miserably.

Posted by: royalking at July 28, 2007 4:27 PM

RK, I think you'd do well, if whenever you read either one, you envisioned them driving little circus cars on rails, with bumper stickers that read "IT'S NOT PARANOIA IF THEY'RE REALLY OUT TO GET YOU".

It saves time...

Only you would think that, aap/why/anon. Quite the opposite is true, "clown."

Jeff, I was very CLEARLY saying that 'someone' created those other wars....someone as in Hitler, Hirohito, & Kim II-Sung, NOT FDR, Wilson, or Truman, ...two of whom I admire very deeply. Bob and others got it right away, ....but you obviously didn't!

Earth to Jeff: 'SOMEONE' doesn't neessarily have to be an American, dumbass!

Now Jeff...WHY did I have to explain that to you and your dense anon defender at 4:07?

Jeff, stupidity isn't supposed to be funny...thats why I can only laugh at you half the time. The other half makes me grieve for the future of our country if very many voters are really as dense as you!

And one more time Jeff, .....SOMEONE was primarily responsible for each and every damned war that has ever plaqued mankind.

You freakin MORON!

Funny, the Dems have no problem with Elizabeth Edwards running hair-boy John Edwards campaign, with fewer credentials to do so than Thompson's wife has.

RK writing posts to himself.
How funny is that !

Remember, the RW'ers are the totally anal ones about names. They usually never post anon.

Posted by: Why do you care what my name is at July 28, 2007 10:41 PM

Idiot, there is plenty of "anon" posters that have a brain and are appauled at the orange one. "Usually never?" Double negative, "son." I wonder why Mrs. Philby didn't school you on your grammar skills or lack there of?

Jeff, I was very CLEARLY saying that 'someone' created those other wars....someone as in Hitler, Hirohito, & Kim II-Sung, NOT FDR, Wilson, or Truman, ...two of whom I admire very deeply. Bob and others got it right away, ....but you obviously didn't!

Earth to Jeff: 'SOMEONE' doesn't neessarily have to be an American, dumbass!

Now Jeff...WHY did I have to explain that to you and your dense anon defender at 4:07?

Jeff, stupidity isn't supposed to be funny...thats why I can only laugh at you half the time. The other half makes me grieve for the future of our country if very many voters are really as dense as you!

And one more time Jeff, .....SOMEONE was primarily responsible for each and every damned war that has ever plaqued mankind.

You freakin MORON!

Posted by: Mike at July 28, 2007 9:24 PM

Here we have the "back pedal" card. How dd those words taste?

How dd those words taste?
------------------------------
I'm sorry, but I don't know what "dd" means. Are you doing an imitation of a cartoon character? Are you saying "How de duck ...?" You'd still need a vowel, you know?

Jeff again! "Usually never? Double negative, "son". I wonder why Mrs. Philby didn't school you on your grammar skills, or lack thereof?"

LOL! Oh Jeff: While clearly contradictory, "usually never" is anything but a double negative, oh dumb one!

Ever heard the old saying about "people who live in glass houses", oh dumb one?
-----------------------------------------------

And HERE'S Jeff again: Still trying to wiggle out of being nailed a little worse than he normally gets nailed: "Here we have the back peddle card. How dd those words taste?"

Those words 'taste' just great Jeff, because your English comprehension skills are obviously just as bad or worse than your grammar and spelling skills.

There was not a trace of 'back peddling' in any of my words, and continually reposting selected parts of my posts is not going to save you from looking exactly like the dumb ass you obviously are.

But edwards' campaign isn't in disarray which was the point of the post.

Read much ?

Posted by: Why do you care what my name is at July 29, 2007 1:40 PM

3rd behind 2 people that don't stand a chance isn't "disarray?" Who said Senator Thompsons campaign was in "disarray?" I didn't know he was even running, has he announced? His campaign is in "disarray" according to numb nuts and he's not even running. Keep reading those far left hate sites, ok?

Olbyloon Ed 101g
Subject: English
Todays Student: patsy/why/anon

A double negative is the use of two negatives in a single clause. Although the double negative construction is used in informal language to intensify a negative meaning, in formal language it is usually considered unacceptable. This is because in the ways that formal language are construed double negatives have the effect of canceling each other out, leaving a positive meaning, rather than intensifying a negative. The best approach to the double negative construction, as with other language issues, is to consider the context as you decide how you can most effectively communicate what you wish to say.

The force of a double negative construction includes obviously negative words like

not ain’t no none never nowhere

But dumbass, "usually" is not a negative!

Jeff, why do you enjoy making yourself look even more stupid than you already looked?

Mr. Care, Monsieur Royale seems to have given you the grammatical rule supporting your correct understanding of the meaning and use of the double negative. I doubt he realizes he has just proven you correct, and I am certain he will never admit it.

A high school English teacher would mark "usually negative" as AWK, but not as 2N.

Do you not find that is possibly the usual case in such matters? Awkward to the point of being gibberish, but not no double negative in the preceding sentence ....

Concerning Jeff, I have never seen anyone so perfectly willing to repeatedly post things that disprove their very own arguments!

It wouldn't be possible to make this guy up if you tried!

But dumbass, "usually" is not a negative!

Jeff, why do you enjoy making yourself look even more stupid than you already looked?

Posted by: Mike at July 29, 2007 2:37 PM

It is when it is used with "never," dumbass. I wouldn't expect you to understand, though. You don't understand your own words, let alone someone else's!

If I remember correctly, if you mulitiply negatives it results in a positive...as in the sheer entertainment value of RK and his merry band of guru grammarians.

I can't say I understand your pique quotient, RK, but perhaps you should tone it down before Michael Moore makes a movie about you.

ROFLMAO!

It is when it is used with "never," dumbass.
-----
So, what you're saying, Monsieur Royale, would be that when "seldom" is used with "never" it is a positive?

I need to know this because, as your know, people all over the world monitor websites, and I am one of those people. How am I to report to my people in Bucharest, Tiriana and Warsaw, and other capital cities of the Coalition of the Willing, if I do not know the answer? I am about to make a series of trips starting mid-week, and I am in urgent need of an answer. The key to our success in the War Against Terror is understanding the vital information you are conveying. Of course, it is getting less important than it once was, with the Coalition shrinking faster than Valerie Bertinelli, and I fear my globe-trotting days may be waning. Still, who knows what I might be able to accomplish if only I could understand you?

We here at the DailyKos would like to offer our appreciation to the many fans we have fighting the war against neo-cons throughout the world wide web. Websites like this should be shut down or at least shouted down by the "true believers". Lets continue with the fight and allow only one voice to be heard in America. Remember freedom of speech is a right of the honest and not of the liar. Allah be with us and our Taliban brothers as we support freedom and peaceful living in a Muslim tolerant world.... ah screw it! I can't continue with it. Burn in Hell DailyKos! God Bless America and strike the Olbyloons with a bad case of syphillis!!

Daily Kos Representative says:

"God Bless America and strike the Olbyloons with a bad case of syphillis!!"

OK, Mr. Fake Daily Kos representative smarty pants, let's get something straight-- you wanna mess with me or my viewers, you're gonna pay a price and I will see to it personally, got it? See, I'm not like Costas or any those other wimpy douchebags, I am a badass dude, mofo. I back up what I say. Here's an interview I did with Sports Illustrated that shows how tough I am. My advice is that you remember these words and watch yourself:

"I have never gotten a pie in the face or someone swearing at me. I have heard from others there have been players that have thought about it but when they see -- I am their height or bigger -- they decide maybe this confrontation is not really worth it."

http://www.theneweditor.com/index.php?/archives/5840-Keith-Olbermann-on-Egos-and-Other-Things.html

Hey 'DailyKos Rep': Does the irony that you are using "free speech" as an argument against those who are simply exercising their free speach to criticize a website that is dedicated to the trashing of a commentator who is simply exercising his right of "free speech".....ever occur to you?

"free speech" ... ever occur to you?

Nope. Never occured to me but thanks for pointing it out. I figured the free speech arguement I was using to bash the free speech used by the person this website is dedicated to conduct free speech forums about would in turn be viewed as free speech to all who view free speech as part of freedoms we have which includes free speech. Maybe if free speech was taxed everytime free speech was given, then theire would be less and maybe we could change it to $1.05 speech and raise money for free speech awareness. Oh wait, I mean $1.05 speech awareness.

If I find you, Fake DKR, you're gonna wish you'd have kept that free speech stuff about my fans to yourself. If I can't find you, then I'll . . . I'll . . . well, I don't know what I'll do, but you'll wish you hadn't messed with me. I might send you an e-mail and tell you to "Kill Yourself" or to "Go f*** your mother" or tell you that you are "Dumber than a suitcase of rocks" You'll be sorry!

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2006/06/keith_olbermann.html

. . . or I'll call you a monkey.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2006/09/keith_olbermann_1.html

DKR, I totally agree** with everything that you said. I mean who needs competing ideologies when the one behind the Bush Administration is working so well**. Who needs political discourse when you can shut up those that dont agree with you. I think free-speech* should be suspended until all these Bush-Haters get with the show and root for the war! Yeah, Go War!!!

*Some terms and conditions apply including, but not limited to:
Blind faith in current administration
Blind faith in the "War on Terror"
Keeping unpopular opinions to yourself
Support of corrupt officials
Free-Speech is only valid in "free-speech zones" and other designated areas in the U.S., not including the internet.

My favorite thing about the whole O'Reilly/Kos affair...He charges $5 for people to post on his blog, then he censors what they write. Hateful/Unpopular comments make their way on his site all the time, but he quickly erases them.

Yeah Free Speech! Now it costs money and you dont even get what you used to.

Call it what you will, but you too share in the same fate that I seem to be too "stupid" to get out of. We're all sheep, but you just follow a different group. My eyes are open to the blind faith that we both suffer from. No side is wrong, but all sides are fools.

Conservatives: "Fear the terrorists because they're real".

Liberals: "Fear global warming because it's real".

Free-Speech is only valid in "free-speech zones" and other designated areas in the U.S., not including the internet.

Posted by: StealThisOpinion at July 30, 2007 8:34 PM

Oh, STO forgot to mention another "zone" where free speech is not permitted -- the 30 Rock studio where Orange Boy broadcasts his left fringe propaganda (unless of course your speech coincides with Olby's own opinion). Yes, the 21st century's Edward R. Murrow indeed.

Nom du Jour, the piece I assumed you had quoted from some news entity intrigued with its talk of:

"If you build an efficient, diverse, dispersed, renewable electricity system, major failures -- whether by accident or malice -- become impossible by design rather than inevitable by design,...." So I googled David Roberts and here is the link:

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/7/30/12252/4390

This just happens to be an opinion piece by one of the contributors to the Gristmill Blog. No more than that, an opinion piece by a blogger who has a very specific point of view, envionmentalism.

Chicken Blogger, for all your assumed superiority over Cee, Cecelia and I did you realize that this article used Iraq as a tie in to the important point of completely scrapping the energy grids in Iraq and replacing them with "an efficient, diverse, dispersed, renewable electricity system", which is the sum total of what this article conveys about what that would mean in even broad practical terms of possible methods and infrastruture needed.

You're right in one respect. My eyes do glaze over when I read such pie in the sky don't ask me for details my small group knows how to fix this and you must have faith pap.

Grammie

"This is the type of information that when Grammie, Cee and Cecelia read it, they glaze over and turn away"

Well, then I'm sure you want to run right on over to GrammieWatch, CeeWatch and CeciliaWatch and post there about this immediately.

Meanwhile what is Olberamnn ignoring or, more precisely, closing his eyes and ears to, so he doesnt have to be confused by the facts? The same thing that Rep. Nancy Boyda(D) ran away from during a Congressional briefing yesterday:

"Yesterday I wrote about Congresswoman Nancy Boyda who found three-star General John Keane’s (ret.) positive report about Iraq so upsetting that she had to leave the briefing room in a huff. While we don’t know exactly what the General said that so riled the obviously easily riled representative, Keane did give an interview to National Review’s Rich Lowry which gives us some insight into that burning question. Here’s some of what Keane told Lowry, but by all means read the whole thing:

'The success that the security operation is achieving is, in my judgment, very definable. What I have done is, in my first visit in February since the operation began, I went into neighborhoods in Baghdad and then returned 90 days later to make a comparison. And I will do the same in August…
What you see is a stark contrast to ‘06 in those neighborhoods. Because all the schools are open. The markets are teaming with people. Some operating at full capacity; some not quite there because of the level of violence in their neighborhood and some of the construction that was being done, but nonetheless a steady improvement. Government services are being administrated in the neighborhoods and again some of that is uneven because of the nature of the government of itself, but nonetheless there is an attempt to provide essential services to the population where in ‘06 there were none…
I think Baghdad (in a year or two) will be stable except for an occasional car bomb by the al Qaeda. Anbar province will be stable. Diyala province will be stable and many of the provinces around Baghdad will be almost as stable. And I see us, from a security perspective, having made some very significant gains, particularly in comparison from ‘06 and from a political perspective, I absolutely see the change that is taking place from the grassroots level in the Sunni and Shia wanting change.'

The General doesn’t back away from addressing the unsatisfactory political situation in Baghdad, and is no Pollyanna. But overall, the picture is a lot more encouraging than it was a year ago or even a few months ago. This perhaps explains why the New York Times found the American public more encouraged about the situation in Iraq, much to the Grey Lady’s shock and horror.

No wonder why Nancy Boyda left the room in a hurry when General Keane gave his briefing. Wouldn’t want to take any chance of getting confused by the facts.
OF COURSE, THE COUNTRY IS full of Nancy Boydas – people who refuse to hear good news from Iraq. They believe that the war is lost and that the sooner America and especially the Bush administration admit its humiliation at the hands of Al Qaeda and abandon millions of Iraqis to genocidal massacres, the better.

No, dear, you 'defend this:

"Some of us have made three attempts at [bringing decentralized power to Iraq] and there's a fourth now under discussion. The first three attempts, the third of which was backed by the Iraqi power minister, were vetoed by the U.S. political authorities on the grounds that they'd already given big contracts to Bechtel, Halliburton, et. al to rebuild the old centralized system, which of course the bad guys are knocking down faster than it can be put back up.

...

If you build an efficient, diverse, dispersed, renewable electricity system, major failures -- whether by accident or malice -- become impossible by design rather than inevitable by design, an attractive nuisance for terrorists and insurgents. There's a pretty good correlation between neighborhoods with better electrical supply and those that are inhospitable to insurgents. This is well known in military circles. There's still probably just time to do this in Afghanistan.

This is important for greens to remember: the benefits of distributed, renewable power are not merely environmental. It is inherently more resilient than the centralized hub-and-spoke alternative, though not as profitable for Halliburton. And while the need for resilience is obvious in Iraq, it's no less important in the U.S. and elsewhere, particularly as climate stresses grow more and more severe.

Another parallel to the domestic energy debate: it's collusion between large corporations and governments that insure that the brittle old power paradigm remains dominant, even in places where it is grotesquely and manifestly inadequate. "

From, your source that I cited and you did not:

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/7/30/12252/4390

Hell, just explain, no need to defend yet, what this marvel is that is to replace the energy generation and distribution systems in Iraq, Afghanistan ("just time to do this") and the US.

To reiterate what the main thrust of the opinion that you copied and pasted without attribution:

"IF YOU BUILD AN EFFICIENT, DIVERSE, DISPERSED, RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY SYSTEM, MAJOR FAILURES --- WHETHER BY ACCIDENT OR MALICE --- BECOME IMPOSSIBLE BY DESIGN RATHER THAN INEVTIBLE BY DESIGN"

Now, if you want to discuss energy availability in Iraq with comparisons to prior times why don't you make your points and provide the sources that you base your argument upon.

To my mind if the part of your citation that I highlighted were viable it would overshadow any news about Iraq short of a nuke going off there and it wouldn't take long for that story to share some space with that story.

Grammie

Hey, Careless, try it and prove your point if you can.

I'm game. But I would much rather know what this remarkable solution to our problem and the entire world's problem is:

"IF YOU BUILD AN EFFICIENT, DIVERSE, DISPERSED, RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY SYSTEM, MAJOR FAILURES --- WHETHER BY ACCIDENT OR MALICE --- BECOME IMPOSSIBLE BY DESIGN RATHER THAN INEVTIBLE BY DESIGN"

I care that this could solve so much. Why don't you?

Don't you want to know the answer to the world's current and looming catostrophic energy needs coupled with the AGW contributions that could solve it all?

If there are sources out there cite them. I did a little looking around and from what I found Baghdad could very likely be worse off now re hours of electricity available now. I also found that Sadam may have shortchanged the rest of the country, which now either has electricity that it didn't have at all or has more.

That leads to a question of the overall importance of that.

What is this marvelous idea that is languishing in obscurity.

I care, why don'y U care?

"Oh, STO forgot to mention another "zone" where free speech is not permitted -- the 30 Rock studio where Orange Boy broadcasts his left fringe propaganda "

Oh...Wow...That was a profound comback. Man, compare a worthless news personality blocking points of view to the president of the united states blocking points of view...Why didnt I think of that? I bow at your never-ending wit. I would consider the latter of the two people much more troubling and having a much greater magnitude than a leftist who spends too much time under a heatlamp...but thats just me.

In all fairness STO, Bush is only claiming Executive Privilege to cover his tracks. It is not as if he is trying to keep the truth from the American people. That's merely a side benefit.

Yeah, but what about the secrecy before Executive Priviledge? Like those energy policy meetings that were attended by CEO's of major Oil Corporations that ended up writing a good deal of our Energy Policy under (p)Resident Dubya Bush.

Either way, no matter the reason...He's a huge chickenshit for thinking that every sneeze, cough, and burp that occured in the whitehouse is protected by executive priviledge.