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    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    October 3, 2007
    Countdown with Keith Olbermann - October 3, 2007

    "COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN" (8:00 P.M.-9:00 P.M. ET)

    Host: Keith Olbermann

    Topics/Guests:

    • THE BLACKWATER MURDERERS: John Edwards (D),
    • WE HAVE A NEW GONZALES-GATE [Ding!]: Dana Milbank
    • RUSH LIMBAUGH IS A NASTY PERSON: Brian McGough, Soros puppet

    Meet the new Hour of Spin--same as the old Hour of Spin. It was deja vu time as Keith Oralmann bellowed the opening spiel: Iraqi civilian deaths, John Edwards, Leahy goes after the A.G., Bush's "cruelest veto" as he "attacked the health" of children, Rush Limbaugh, Britney Spears... No, this has to be a rerun. We'll liven things up with some dogs that did not bark, and a special audio clip. Everything old is new again on hump day at Olbermann Watch.

    Bathtub Boy

    #5: Herr Olbermann kicked things off with "breaking news" about Blackwater, accused of "murdering" 17 Iraqi civilians. Herr Olbermann went to Edwards (D), and that reminds us...

    Look at The List. Look at the Damn List. The next Edward R Murrow. Right.

    Once again Olby pummeled Edwards with probing, tough questions:

    • Are troop drawdowns part of your proposal?
    • What in your proposal prevents that kind of snake eating its own tail scenario and to keep the government from employing a paramilitary organization like Blackwater?
    • Does it seem to you this administration believes all problems should be outsourced, that their mistakes are intended to be a revenue stream for their cronies?
    • Hillary Clinton says your criticisms of her are acts of political desperation. How do you respond?
    • How do you explain Clinton's growing lead in the polls?

    On to "Mister" Bush who, as we heard, "attacked the health" of children. And he eats babies, too. "Mister" Bush is "out of touch" because he wants aid to poor children limited to poor children.

    #4: It's GonzalesGate [Ding!] redux! There's a "White House smokescreen". Dana, absent atrocious attire, tossed a little water on Keef's hopes for a big brouhaha, so Merkle called the White House terrorists, and stumbled and stammered a bit before taking refuge in the ritual Great Thanks.

    Another plug (what was this, the third? the fourth? maybe the fifth?) for his Big Limbaugh Segment. Geez, Keithy. To paraphrase your pal The Boy Wonder, why this obsession over O'Reilly? When did an O'Reilly comment ever kill someone?

    #3: Limbaugh "smeared" an anti-war vet as a "suicide bomber" (Blue Blog Source: Hillary Clinton's* Media Matters). A free play of a votevets.org ad. McGough, who starred in the ad, found Rush "repugnant". Olby loved that, because he supports the troops. Or does he? Set the wayback machine for Feb 10, 2007. William Arkin called US troops "mercenaries", said they get "obscene amenities" shipped to them in the war zone, despite all the "rapes and murders" that they commit. How did Edward R Olbermann express his outrage over these insults to our soldiers? Did he run segment after segment, night after night? Did he complain that Arkin had "smeared" our troops? Well, not exactly. So how did Olbermoronn react to these repellent attacks on our soldiers? He agreed with them. Keith Olbermann: hypocritical, slovenly, partisan political hack.

    OLBY

    #2: Princess Di, Nicholas Cage, George Grizzard. #1: Britney Spears! In the Media Matters Minute, the Olbsession continued. Olby attacked Mr Bill (Blue Blog Source: Hillary Clinton's* Media Matters) and the "lunatic fringe right-wingers at the Fixed News [Ding!] whore-house". Hey Fat Ass, wait a second here. If Rush "smeared" this guy as a "suicide bomber", as you just insisted minutes ago, then didn't you just smear all the women at Fox as prostitutes? Also attacked: Jonah Goldberg (Blue Blog Source: Hillary Clinton's* Media Matters). Hey a reference to "Fixed Noise" [Ding!]. Why don't they just let David Brock do the news on MSLSD and eliminate the Olby middleman?

    OLBY

    Dogs That Did Not Bark: Well, we could ask why crack journalist Edward R Olbermann had John Edwards in his Seat of Honor and never asked him about this. (Perhaps it's because he's never reported it in the first place. Surprise.) But let's focus on something else. Krazy Keith has repeatedly blasted US foreign policy re North Korea. It's all the fault of "Mister" Bush because he didn't talk to them. It was Rummy's fault because he benefited from a Clinton engagement policy, but then it was also "Mister" Bush's fault because he did away with that policy. (No, that doesn't make sense, but remember, it's OlbyLogic.) Things were great under Bill Jefferson Clinton, but now we're in a "deep hole". Hell, just come out and say it Merkle. Oh wait, you did, a year ago: our Korean policy is a "failure". Does it surprise anyone that after feeding his meager audience this drivel for months, he spikes this story? What else would one expect from a left wing water carrier?

    MisterMeter

    Olbermann's book The book that bears Olbermann's name sunk to #19,935 on amazon, while "Culture Warrior" is #1,726. (It's that 2-for-$25 sale!) Barnes & Noble lists the OlbyTome at #43,270; O'Reilly's book is #2,000 there, and is one of the top five books of 2006 per Publishers Weekly. On Tuesday the infamous, deplorable Keith Olbermann lost again to his nemesis the eeevil Mr Bill--who had his biggest audience in three months, both in total viewers and in the coveted, pivotal, much-beloved, critical, all-important "key demo". Good work, Olby! Tonight's MisterMeter reading: 2 [LOW]

    * Why do we call it Hillary Clinton's Media Matters? This is why:


    Posted by johnny dollar | Permalink | Comments (314) | | View blog reactions

    314 Comments

    Poor Keith. Being an unfortunate survivor of a botched partial birth abortion explains his mindless rants. KO is a pitiful failure and continues to fall. The sooner nbc figures out that he is a worthless waste of a salary, the better. nbc will never gain that time spot with poor Blowmemann.

    I had always guessed that there was some connection between the now-defunct Media Whores Online and David Brock's Media Matters.

    Read this bit about the ole MWO site and keep in mind Hillary's words about MM at the Kos convention.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Whores_Online

    Perhaps there is a connection...

    The loons have a theory about KO's new Best Persons in the World segment. They think he has a book in the works. That's believable. How soon till he does another special comment - he must need more pages for that book.

    For once I don't think KO is running these bash Rush programs just because he wants too..the Soro's/Clinton's Media Matters is pulling the strings on this and KO and Dan Abrams are doing their master's bidding..Dan just spent over 30mins going over and over it again.

    Buts here's the rub if the Troops were asked who they believe has their back...Rush or the MSM..Rush would win hands down..the same goes if they were allowed to choose whether or not they wanted to keep Rush on Arm Forces Radio..now that Wesley Clark(a Clinton stooge) wants to pull him off the air there.

    This and the attacks on O'Reilly are part of a bigger campaign to go after anyone that is viewed as a threat to Hillary's White House bid and Rush has been a big thorn in the Clinton's sides for years that's also why the threats of bring back the so-called "Fairness Doctrine" keep coming up..it's to silence anyone who opposes the Hilldabeast.

    Imus was the test run(remember the pick-up joke at the Clinton dinner?..they did)..but that failed as the I-man is heading back to radio soon..but that won't stop them and so Media Matter's and their little stooges KO,Abrams,Chrissy and the rest of the MSM will keep the attacks coming..but Rush and O'Reilly have shown the best way to fight them is to hit them back hard(thats the mistake Imus made..he caved in too early).

    Countdown has a mighty bad stink
    Crazy host that visits a shrink
    Keith's mentally ill
    And obsessed with Bill
    He's highly endorsed by Code Pink

    Richard ,
    MM is owned by Soros and his Islamic allies!
    Why do you support our Islamic enemies?

    Richard,
    George Soros was a Nazi informant who sold out other Jews.
    The leader of your movement is a snitch!
    Feels good don't it?
    You're Idol Olbermann was challenged and he's ducking!
    He's an intellectual coward!

    October 3, 2007 11:29 PM
    Just like the Traitor Left spits at troops and openly supports our Islamic enemies!

    Ever notice it's the non military right wing cowards who are always criticizing decorated vets?

    Posted by: at October 3, 2007 11:29 PM

    So you've gotten your bone that Congress threw to you to get your mind off their not doing much else about Iraq.

    Don't you think it's time you buried it?

    > With the drug addict's derogatory remarks against the troops, and never serving one day himself

    Rep Patrick Kennedy made a derogatory remark about our troops? I didn't know that.

    Richard,
    Soros is a rat!
    He snitched out other Jews for the Nazis!
    He alos openly supports the Iranian regime and hates Israel.
    You're a traitor as you love the death of our troops since it helps your side politically!
    You cheer every suicide bomber!

    Ever notice it's the non military right wing cowards who are always criticizing decorated vets?

    Posted by: at October 3, 2007 11:29 PM

    This hypocrisy coming from someone who condoned the 'betray us' add. Classy.

    Richard,
    Soros survived the holocaust because he collaborated with the Nazis by ratting out other Jews.
    Olbermann is an idiot.
    Why doesn't he debate Medved?
    He alos gets facts wrongs and lies about history.
    He's basically a spokesman for Iran!

    Anon,
    "al Qaeda has expanded its reach, and U.S. casualties continue to grow."

    You love it!
    It helps you politically so you root for Al-Qaeda!

    Hey Why Don't You Think, why are you going anonymous tonight? That old name took too much of a beating here, and you're trying to start fresh, is that it?

    Mlong, what Imus said was an egregiously unnecessary comment that stood by itself. There was no editing to produce it. From what I've seen and heard of Imus I don't think he meant any racist insult. He seems to be an equal opportunity let it all hang out type. He just let it all hang out too far, IMO, when he tacked on the Hip Hop (?) word "HO".

    Bill O had Juan Williams passionately defending him because he was on Bill O's show for a good part of the hour in question. Bill O had a link to the hour long show so people could judge for themselves whether his words were carefully extracted to create a totally phony story.

    As for Rush they pulled two words from an almost twenty year history of strongly supporting our service men and women (as individuals and a group regardless of their politics). I heard the three hour segment in question and anyone who would attempt to portray it as a condemnation by Rush of soldiers who disagree with the war is a vicious liar.

    I read an excerpt by Bill Bennett from CNN. To paraphrase he said 'if you try to shoot the King you better kill him'. Rush has an audience of twenty million plus who can judge for themselves what really happened because they heard it in real time. The King wasn't even grazed except for those who never look to original sources.

    What has been lost in this is that PHONY SOLDIERS REPORTING PHONY ATROCITIES belong to the loony left.

    Grammie

    Hey Johnny$,
    You see that Jihadi link that features Olbermann?
    Now we know who watches him!
    Islamo-Fascist

    "Ever notice it's the non military right wing cowards who are always criticizing decorated vets?"

    Jesse Macbeth?

    > Johnny Dollar, stops by to muddy the waters and the discussion.

    No, you mentioned a drug addict who never served, and I was sure you were talking about Patrick Kennedy. Weren't you?

    Right !
    Posted by: at October 3, 2007 11:40 PM


    Tell it to ABC News. Here's a video of a piece they did on phony soldiers several days before Limbaugh's remarks.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3645227

    > When having nothing to say, talk names.

    Or when you have nothing to say, talk drug addict who never served. You know, like Pat K.

    "Mlong, what Imus said was an egregiously unnecessary comment that stood by itself."

    Thats true..but I still believe the effort to remove Imus still ties in to whats happening now..an attempt by the Left to remove opposing viewpoints from the airwaves though threats,boycotts.MSM smears,Clinton/Soro's backed attacks on the Web and the so-called "Fairness Doctrine".

    WDYT, this is why you're the quintessential (look it up) Olbypologist. When you want to attack someone, you call them a drug addict who never served. This is how worked up get for a guy who talks on the radio. But just like your hero Oralmann, you'd never say that about Patrick Kennedy. You object to a drug addict talking on he radio, but you LOVE a drug addict who's actually MAKING LAWS.

    Man, there is no better entertainment than watching Olbyloons. Beats watching "Heroes" every time.

    Keith Olbermann was a brave soldier!
    Right Lefties!

    "mlong: is Limpballs a decorated vet?"

    No and neither is Move on/Media Matters "War hero" Jesse Macbeth the "Phony Solider" Rush was talking about who like Senator Tom Harkin lied about his military experience.

    When having nothing to say, cut-n-paste....

    You really got to love how concern the Left and the MSM is now about protecting our troops from being criticized after spending the last 6 years calling them Nazi's,Cold blooded murders and insulting their intelligent by saying only the uneducated join the Military.

    Mlong, I agree that Imus was a trial run that succeeded perhaps beyond their wildest dreams.

    I think, though, that the nature of his persona and style gave the PC police an easy win, partly because they didn't have to manufacture it the way they have tried to do with Bill O and Rush. He did give them a big opening to break through.

    I am not saying that it was right. Imus just gave them the opening.

    Grammie

    Who's Keith Olbermann?

    Oh... just some dork that the left looks to for guidance.

    Well, he should be held responsible for his contribution to the Leftist movement that is currently trying to destroy America.

    That's right, Keith Olbermann is a phoney American.

    "We have a president who lied about his military service but mlong conveniently forgets about him."

    mlong considers it much more fun to talk about Dan Rather.

    "We have a president who lied about his military service but mlong conveniently forgets about him.
    Figures "

    What did he lie about Dan Rather? show me the real 60's era National Guard documents that weren't produced 4years ago and we'll talk.

    "You really got to love how concern the Left and the MSM is now about protecting the troops from being criticized after they spent the last 6 years calling them Nazis..."

    Examples please?

    Olbermann is a traitor.
    As a supporter of the Islamic movement he should be deported to Iran!

    "mlong considers it much more fun to talk about Dan Rather."

    Yes because that whole affair says so much about the MSM today.

    "When afraid to learn something, criticize someone who prints something to learn.
    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 12:03 AM"

    You will forgive me if I I shy away from accepting a Chicken Blogger as a teacher and mentor.

    If your thoughts and philosophy are so poor that you won't sign your own name to them why would you think others would consider them?

    Grammie

    When afraid to learn something, criticize someone who prints something to learn.

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 12:03 AM


    You don't have to be afraid of my posts, Anonyloon. Embrace them.

    mlong: "Yes because that whole affair says so much about the MSM today."

    But your president's non-service is unimportant to you?

    "Republicans support terrorism:"

    Posted by: Richard

    Hey Richard mind if I call you DICK?

    Richard,
    It's the Left that supports the Islamists.
    Look at you hoping for a Muslim victory!
    Olbermann is basically a spokesman for Iran!
    Now, who's the traitors?

    I commented earlier that The Dick and the Chicken Blogger was a match made in heaven.

    I am so happy to see that they are still together. I just love weddings and anniversary celebrations (sniff, sniff).

    Grammie

    > he keeps removing it from the page.

    That's right. This is a comments thread, not a steal copyrighted material from other sites because you can't find your own words to comment thread. I'll continue to delete these lengthy cut and pastes, and if you keep it up, I'll delete you. Don't like it, talk to Mr Cox.

    Rush Limbaugh is the only drug addict who never served who is currently in the news...and hot seat....and deservedly so.

    Posted by: at October 3, 2007 11:58 PM


    Brittany served, when?

    Why are you such a nobody,

    How do you sign your checks?

    " " or "Why I am such a dingbat"???

    Dan Rather got a source wrong, but the story was accurate.
    There was a $10,000 fee put up for any member of Bush 's unit to come forward and prove he served.
    The money is still unclaimed.

    But this is old news. Funny how mLong tries to reinvent history.
    So...speaking of history, how has Bush done as president. mlong ?

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 12:12 AM


    It depends upon what is required as proof, doesn't it? Can you just walk up and say you served with him or do you have to have a picture? If that's the case there are people who have worked places for years and never had a picture taken of themselves on the job.

    I've always found this whole subject interesting. Why is it that over 100 Swift boat vets (practically everyone except for Kerry's fellow crew members) denounced John kerry (also a rich kid from a prominent family) and his medals and that wasn't enough for some folks because they site military records. Resubmitted military records, to boot.

    However, in the case of George Bush, the same folks believe that the entire TANG colluded to protect him.

    'Rush Limbaugh is the only drug addict who never served who is currently in the news...and hot seat"

    Some Hot seat...Rush's rating like O'Reilly's are going up since the MSM started their Media Matters ordered witch hunt.

    "Keith Olbermann: hypocritical, slovenly, partisan political hack."

    Pretty much sums it up..........what's left?

    In George Bush's case it will only take one... one person to convince a Bush-hater that he did what he said he did...

    In John Kerry's case over a hundred people weren't enough...

    Richard, thanks for posting the transcripts because they speak for themselves.

    That said, please leave out the "frigid harpy cunt" and "bitch" comments.

    Mike

    Oh dear, The Dick, does Chicken Blogger have a headache tonight?

    Hope springs eternal. The headache might not be forever.

    Or could it?

    I hope that you guys are able to patch it up. I really hate to see soul mates get at odds with other.

    Grammie

    Richard would be one of the first that the terrorists would decapitate if they get the chance. He would whine like a little girl. Then he would die like a pig.

    Dick must be a true card carrying communist and a butt buddy of Keith Blowmeman. Packing that fudge. I would meet Richard anytime and any place and kick his communist ass up between his communist eyes.

    The long knives will be out for you Dick. The IEDs will disembowel you. You are no patriot. You are a sick puke hiding behind that DNA encrusted keyboard of yours.

    Come out of the Twin cities airport stall you POS pantload of gopher scat.

    Do you find it interesting that the US military stands behind John Kerry and his medals?

    You are such a partisan hack !

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 12:28 AM


    The U.S. military stands behind George Bush, but you're writing as though it's a foregone conclusion that he's lied about his service-- who's the partisan hack here, moron!

    I like it how you guys prop up a guy that went AWOL as a hero and a guy that went to Vietnam as a coward. All of you should go to Iraq... in fact, why aren't you guys in Iraq right now?

    Posted by: Richard at October 4, 2007 12:30 AM


    Can you site your source for that assertion..... Dick?

    What's really funny is a poster named " " calling people cowards.

    Cecelia gives new meaning to the term "one sided".

    Even after 7 years of failed policies from a presdient she voted for, she just can't help herself still supporting this mess.

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 12:31 AM

    Why don't you rename yourself, Why Don't I Know How To Read....

    George W Bush's and John Kerry's report cards from Yale side by side.

    www.bushesgradeswerehigher.com

    John Kerry and George Bush's military service side by side.

    http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 12:35 AM


    So, are we to assume that you voted for Dole over Billy Blow Job?

    a.......which one became COMMANDER IN CHIEF!!!!!!

    Dan Blather lost his whole world pissing in the wind about Bush's military record. It didn't work then, it won't work now. Loser argument.

    And Kerry was a phoney soldier/sailor,WTF ever

    at.......which one became COMMANDER IN CHIEF!!!!!!

    Dan Blather lost his whole world pissing in the wind about Bush's military record. It didn't work then, it won't work now. Loser argument.

    And Kerry was a phoney soldier/sailor,WTF ever

    "who's the partisan hack here, moron!"

    I think you are....because comparing Kerry's US military sanctioned Vietnam service in which he received real medals for to GWB's National Guard cop-out is laughable at best.

    I'll never forget the day my conservative brother explained to me what they really meant when calling one of Kerry's injuries "self inflicted". The republican's definition of "self inflicted" is what normal people, including the military, call an accident.

    It doesn't take a genious to deduct that the image they were trying to project was one of a coward injurying themselves intentionally to get out of combat.

    What they did to Kerry was disgraceful...it was shameful....it was cowardly....and it was a bald faced lie, and I for one, will never forgive them for doing it.

    awolbush.com... yeah, a real credible site there.

    Mike,

    Kerry was hit by the ultimate "friendly fire", then.

    Don't forget Bubba, now.

    Uncle Sam to Bubba: Greetings!

    Bubba to Uncle Sam: Could you please undraft me, because I am going to join the ROTC next fall? Thanks!


    Here's a news article of that same military describing how Bush's records, along with others, were destroyed.

    If they're credible for Bush here (as well as Abu Ghraib, Tillman, Gitmo....), why are they for Kerry?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/23/politics/main631547.shtml

    Posted by: Mike at October 4, 2007 12:42 AM


    Well looky here, John and Elizabeth Edwards personal man servant has arrived. Rough day Mike washing and waxing the Bentley?

    You are a pitiful nitwit joke ...at

    You are owned by Richard I am sure. You two are probably snuggling at this very moment.

    Where is your, Bush didn't win Florida crap? Ohio? Come on crap for brains. Where is your BushRoveCheneyHalliburton did 9-11?

    "Which on became COMMANDER IN CHIEF!!!!!"

    And the country lost!

    I meant to say-- if the military is not credible in the case of Bush, why are they for Kerry?

    During the Vietnam Era there was every bit, if not more, incentive to make heros for PR purposes as there is now.

    I'm not jumping to conclusions, about Kerry. I'm merely asking the people here who insist that it's a foregone conclusion that Bush lied, why they do not hold Kerry to the same standards.

    Are all the Swift boaters who signed on to the Swift Boat organizaton's complaint liars too?

    "Rough day Mike washing and waxing the Bentley."

    No I don't do Bentleys....to damn dull!

    I do only Vettes' Ferrari's, and Turbo 911's, but ONLY if I can drive them for a week afterwards.

    All the dingbats want to do is talk about George W Bush, as if he were object of their obsession. He is.

    anon, I think you've been watching too many Hollyweird movies

    What would possibly motivate a person named " " to spend every waking moment thinking about one George W Bush?

    Madness!

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 12:54 AM

    Perhaps your name should be Whydon'tIthink....and Whydon'tIread... Specially, read the charges the Swiftboaters made against Kerry and the records.

    Those charges are similar to the ones made against the military when it comes to Bush's records and against the military for more recent actions.

    Yes, The Hertiage Foundation. LOLOLOLOL!!!!
    So credible. Go fuck yourself.

    The second post was by Col. Austin BAy who served in Iraq.

    http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=993


    http://austinbay.net/

    Bay, who has had two commercial wargames published, served for four years as a consultant in wargaming at the Pentagon. He holds the rank of Colonel (Armor) in the U.S. Army Reserve. In 1999 Bay served as deputy commander of a Hurricane Mitch recovery operation in Guatemala.

    Bay is now retired from the US Army Reserve, but was recalled to active duty and served in Iraq in 2004. For this tour of duty in Iraq, he was awarded the Bronze Star for meritorious service.

    Bay has a B.A. from Rice University and a Ph.D. in English and Comparative Literature from Columbia University. He is a graduate of the U.S. Army War College. He currently teaches for The University of Texas' Plan II Undergraduate Honors Program.


    You need to do a little more research there ..... little Dicky.

    Cecelia,

    There isn't even a full moon tonight but the loons are howling "like it's 1999". I think somebody spiked their Kool Aid.

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 12:54 AM

    Dumb......bunny.... :D

    If you'll read the CBS link you'll see that the same military that has John Kerry's records is the same military that claims to have inadvertently destroyed Bush's (and other people's) records.

    Why are they trustworthy not to have done what the Swiftboaters claim they did in Kerry's case (fabricate a Nam hero), but not trustworthy in Bush's case?

    Cecelia/Swiftboaters: proven liars

    Next >>>>>
    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 1:02 AM

    Run out of blueblog cut-n-pastes? :D

    > to lie to try to gain advantage over an opponent.

    Wow, that makes Olbermann the biggest swiftboater on TV!

    Richard,

    Bill Clinton is the only president who got drafted and lied his way out of induction.

    Bill Clinton never finished his studies as Rhodes Scholar. In other words, he dropped out.

    Swiftboaters are proven liars.Not to mention that they were also criticized because of the connections of some of its representatives and major donors to the Republican party and the 2004 Bush-Cheney presidential campaign.

    IN our public lexicon the term "swiftboat" means to lie to try to gain advantage over an opponent.

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 1:08 AM


    Well, if they hated John Kerry for the charges the reasons they stated in their petition, it would make sense that they supported his opposition.

    However, I don't think you can paint the over 100 Swiftboaters who signed a statement against Kerry as being on the payroll of the WH.

    Swiftboating is a partisan pejorative just as Bork is. It has no real significance one way or the other.

    Run out of pretentious partisan things to say ?

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 1:13 AM

    No one can help that any word over two syllables and any argument that's not a cut-n-paste is "pretentious" to you... :D

    Richard, I personally believe that most of today's right wingers fully accept the mantra; "winning is everything". How they 'win' is of no consequence....as long as they win.

    Right-wingers live in a parallel universe were everything is taken out of context, Bush is a success, Swift Boaters are heroes, rush didn't call troops that want the war stopped "phony", and Olbermann lies. Never saw any proof, but I'd like you to provide some links...

    Posted by: Richard at October 4, 2007 1:14 AM


    Maybe you can heed you own suggestion and provide us with the links to those assertions in the first portion of you post. We will be waiting ........ Little Dickey.

    Richard,

    Clinton dropped out of Oxford, dishonoring those who let him go there. Yeah, I know he later got his degree as a shyster.

    He got drafted and tricked the draft board into undrafting him. So somebody else had to take his place and was probably getting shot at while Clinton was protesting in London.

    Dumb Fuck right back at you, Dumb Fuck.

    Yup. Sounds like he "dropped out." Dumb fuck.

    Posted by: Richard at October 4, 2007 1:21 AM


    Hey Little Dickey, What do you have against drop outs? You may take the prize as the most illiterate troll on this site, next to Mike of course.
    http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/54/richlist07_The-400-Richest-Americans_Rank.html

    2007 Forbes 400
    The Top Ten
    1. William Gates III Drop Out
    2. Warren Buffett
    3. Sheldon Adelson Drop Out
    4. Lawrence Ellison Drop Out
    5. Sergey Brin
    6. Larry Page
    7. Kirk Kerkorian High School, Diploma
    8. Michael Dell Drop Out
    9. Charles Koch
    10. David Koch
    11. Paul Allen Drop Out

    Of the 3,500 Swift boat sailors who served in Vietnam, the names of some 250 appeared on the group's statement against Kerry; most did not serve at the same time or in the same place as Kerry.


    nuff said.

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 1:12 AM

    So where are the others?

    Kerry had only 19 Swiftboaters come out on record to support him.

    Among his detractors were those who had direct command over him.

    "Olby's Wig: "You may take the prize as the most illiterate troll on this site, except for Mike of course."

    Funny.....An obvious troll who thinks calling an opposition poster a 'car washer' accusing other posters of being "trolls".

    Republicans are the "Daddy" party.
    Democrats are the "Mommy" party.
    Keith, being the woman he is, is 100% "mommy". As a matter of fact, Keith is so "mommy", he embarrasses the less womanly Democrats, including the men.

    I thought Limbaughs ' suicide bomber' metaphor was beautiful prose, perfectly applied. Rush has more itellectual acumen at his disposal than all the MSNBC hosts combined.

    *intellectual

    "Olby's Wig: "You may take the prize as the most illiterate troll on this site, except for Mike of course."

    Funny.....An obvious troll who thinks calling an opposition poster a 'car washer' accusing other posters of being "trolls".

    Posted by: Mike at October 4, 2007 1:40 AM


    Ahhhhh, poor little Mikey got his feelings hurt. And the reason I called you a car washer is because I was trying to be polite. In reality, you’re nothing more than a left wing errand boy, sent to collect an unpaid bill.

    "Kerry had only 19 Swiftboaters come out on record to support him."

    Uh Cecelia....I don't think any "swiftboaters" came out to support him. The Swiftboaters were the smear artists, remember?

    That said, I know what you meant. It is entirely reasonable that there would have been only 19 others QUALIFIED enough to make a judgement on this man.

    Most military situations involve prolonged close contact with only a handful of other people.

    Olby's Wig: "Ahhhhh, poor little mikey got his feelings hurt."

    No, not at all. An ignoramous like you couldn't possibly hurt my feelings. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy in calling other posters "trolls".

    Olby's Wig: "Ahhhhh, poor little mikey got his feelings hurt."

    No, not at all. An ignoramous like you couldn't possibly hurt my feelings. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy in calling other posters "trolls".

    Posted by: Mike at October 4, 2007 1:49 AM


    Wow Mikey, very impressive. I see you have been visiting thesaurus.reference.com.

    Everyone who thinks mike is a perfect example of a 'mommy', type" MM" .

    MM

    Olby's Wig: "Wow Mikey, very impressive. I see you have been visiting Thesaurus.reference.com."

    Yes, occasionally. But it's never necessary when responding to someone like you.

    "Rough day Mike washing and waxing the Bentley."

    No I don't do Bentleys....to damn dull!

    I do only Vettes' Ferrari's, and Turbo 911's, but ONLY if I can drive them for a week afterwards.

    Posted by: Mike at October 4, 2007 12:52 AM

    And what else do you do for Johnny 'Breck Girl'? Cook and clean the house in a 'French Maid' outfit?

    Vomits Richard The Cock Sucker:

    "Olbermann is more intelligent than Rush (drop out) Hannity (drop out) and O'Reilly (paranoid schziophrenic) combined."

    END QUOTE

    Really. How do you know dumbass. Being a partisan liberal asshat with an opinion hardly classifies you to rate anyone. All those mentioned are more recognized n their profession, make more money, have the same job 2 years from now and can make a living without sliming and lying about someone.

    ***********************************

    Previoulsy shitted by Richard the Cock Sucker:

    "You should kill yourself."

    Am I detecting a trend here. This is right from the O'Lielly handbook.

    Um, if her did there would be two of you dead because you are already dead cock sucker, spiritually, mentally and physically.

    Whatsmatter pussy, feeling the pain at the pump, crdit card debt dragging ya down, hiding under your bed because Reid and Pelosi tald you to, afraid to get no futher out of your sandbox than you can keep your big toe dangling over the side............Well, your mother should have told you the world doesn't revolve around little Ricardo and there would be bad men running the world and there is nothing little Ricardo could do about it except whine like the little cock sucking bitch he really is.

    Posts by chicken shit:

    "SO now you're carrying water for Rush Limpballs in addition to Bush?
    Your shoulders must be very very sore."

    END QUOTE

    So you stopped by to carry the water for Olbytard. I'm sure your lips needed a break from sucking on Mike Moore's asshole.

    Bloats Mike the Lussy Lou:

    "I think you are....because comparing Kerry's US military sanctioned Vietnam service in which he received real medals for to GWB's National Guard cop-out is laughable at best.

    I'll never forget the day my conservative brother explained to me what they really meant when calling one of Kerry's injuries "self inflicted". The republican's definition of "self inflicted" is what normal people, including the military, call an accident.

    It doesn't take a genious to deduct that the image they were trying to project was one of a coward injurying themselves intentionally to get out of combat.

    What they did to Kerry was disgraceful...it was shameful....it was cowardly....and it was a bald faced lie, and I for one, will never forgive them for doing it."

    END QUOTE

    John Kerry, a long time family friend of the Kennedy's saw what military service had on a political career. Kerry went to Nam to help is career. He went to Nam like someone checking how hot the water was in the tub before he jumped in.

    He got 3 PH's in three months for "superficial wounds" that all required a bandage and salve. None of these wounds would have been applied for by a real combat soldier. That's a fact. One of the wounds was self inflicted when Lt. Heinz threw a grenade off the front of his boat that hit a rock and bounced back towards him. I could care less if he was trying to injure himself. He is a pussy. He was brought up as a pussy and I can imagine him throwing a grenade would look like a girl throwing a baseball. The video of him carry his M-16 and the way he carried it showed me a man that never used it. He carried it like a loaf of bread.

    Kerry also shot and killed a wounded boy in the back. Kerry lied about being in Cambodia by miles when in reality they crossed the border by a few feet one night. No missions. Expalining that people that were witness of Kerry's exploits and calling his hand are liars and partisan only proves a liberal's typicla response.

    The Swift Boat Vets, who I donated to I may add, discredited this lying, coawrd piece of shit who betrayed his fellow vets with his lies and propaganda.


    If John Kerry was a real man and a real soldier and a real warrior he would have served his 12 months. He stuck his big toe in Nam, lied and picked up a few medals and high stepped it out of there as fast as he could. I wonder if that combat pilot, Sen Tom Harkin who flew cargo planes out of Japan and claimed to be a Nam combat pilot flew him home? Maybe they put an outboard on Congressman Murtha's ass who was tied up at the pier and used him to get back to the states. You know, the one with 35 years of military service, only one active with 2 PH's that he himself claims he did not deserve all for superficial wounds.

    Get back in your sandbox Lussy, you just can;t debate when you are standing in sand.

    Haint ye heerd.

    "Republicans are the "Daddy" party."


    Sure, if you had a dad that blew every scrap of your family's savings and credit at the casinos, all the while bitching at and smacking your mom for buying the kids too many fucking pencils or an extra pair of pants for school.

    If your mom spent more time than she would have liked dutifully picking your Republican Dad up from the police station (wearing big shades, of course, to hide one of her frequent domestic shiners), after he flew off the handle one more time at the cop addressing his drunk driving or fender-bender, depending on the particular instance, then your analogy of "Daddy Party/Mommy Party" is spot on.

    ...or if you had a dad like Karl Rove's....no, he was OPENLY gay and flambouyant - I'm thinking more along the lines of Larry Craig or Mike Allen.

    If your dad sucked dick at rest-stops while you kids waited in the car; that's where you've got the Republican Daddy party!!

    "You know, the one with 35 years of military service, only one active..."

    Really, Laura? Only one year active? How the fuck did he pull that one off?

    Murtha joined the Marines in 1952 for a standard enlistment - during which he categorically was an ACTIVE servicemember. Following this enlistment he entered a period during which he served in the RESERVES - the counterpart of ACTIVE. He later re-enlisted for ACTIVE service during 1966 and 1967 - a year he spent in combat in Vietnam.

    Laura claims to have served in the military, but his retarded echo of Hannity and Rush - who ignorantly equate "ACTIVE" with "COMBAT" - regarding the standard Murtha-smear suggests that he has no real familiarity with the various statuses that every servicemember goes through and knows implicitly.

    What a fucking liar. This blustering pussy has never touched a uniform or govt-issued weapon any more than I have.

    first of all keith said at the end of his segment with MCough something to the effect 'since rush will never thank you for your service i will" well thats all well and good except for the video he played right before rush calls Mcough an american hero and valiant. so i guess keith forgot that since it was 2 minutes before. also cant you idiots see that keith boy is in the bak pcket of the clinton's he is now doing 20 - 30 minute hitlery ads on his show wake up sheeple.

    The liberal websites are beginning to grow a little more disenchanged with Olby as of late because of his pro-Clinton stance. It's inevitable she'll be the nominee of course and I'm sure Keithy thinks that kissing her ass now will pay off for him later. Can we say "pander"? Because that's what Olby does best.

    Well isn't that special....Murtha can use his service to the country (like the left always "uses" such things for moral authority) to defend himself in the defamtion lawsuit brought by the ACTIVE troops he ridiculed....

    http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/08/us-marine-sues-congressman-for-haditha.php

    Keep trying to use that canard of absolute moral authority, Sir Loin of Milquetoast....it's one of the few rhetorical weapons you seem to have left other than gay-baiting.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 4, 2007 8:33 AM

    too much personal information, Groin

    Do you think Olbermann's pandering to the Clinton's could be considered partisan?

    Wow, I didn't realize how bad Beef's childhood was. His emotional outbursts that served as a protective device finally broke down with that revelation.

    Its not your fault Loin. Please think about talking to someone, especially if you have or are planning to have kids.

    Hey Brandon, can you do a little blog/link highlight to the libs crankiness with Olby's Hillary support. Great Thanks...

    OW post of the day, maybe even the week! Beefcakes, I luv ya! LMAO!

    "Republicans are the "Daddy" party."

    Sure, if you had a dad that blew every scrap of your family's savings and credit at the casinos, all the while bitching at and smacking your mom for buying the kids too many fucking pencils or an extra pair of pants for school.

    If your mom spent more time than she would have liked dutifully picking your Republican Dad up from the police station (wearing big shades, of course, to hide one of her frequent domestic shiners), after he flew off the handle one more time at the cop addressing his drunk driving or fender-bender, depending on the particular instance, then your analogy of "Daddy Party/Mommy Party" is spot on.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 4, 2007 8:33 AM

    The author can plead his case, but Olbermann will NEVER give up his "puff the magic dragon" that is Bill O'Reilly...


    Keith Olbermann's Most Dangerous Game
    Op-Ed By Timothy Sexton

    "There is a disturbing trend on Olbermann's Countdown show lately. He seems to have misfired in his view of the real problems in America. On a seemingly daily basis Keith Olbermann takes Bill O'Reilly to task for the latest stupid comment has made. Going strictly on the basis of O'Reilly's history of stupid comments, this could last until either Olbermann or Billo dies. By giving O'Reilly a nightly plug on his own show Olbermann along with all those who run anti-O'Reilly web sites are succeeding only in proferring to this footnote to history a platform for those who otherwise would not even be aware he exists."

    http://axcessnews.com/index.php/articles/show/id/12592

    North Korea update:
    Clinton panders and we PAY them to hide their nuke program that they agreed to suspend.
    Bush sanctions them and refuses to negotiate while the left screams that not talking to North Korea is a fatal mistake.
    Guess who was right?
    And the crickets from the left are deafening!

    I am asking for any NFL fans that like myself thinks it is deplorable for NBC to force this liberal loon on the general public every Sunday to please go over to the NBC forums and let you opinion be heard.

    http://boards.nbcuni.com/nbcs/index.php?showforum=4

    We need your help.

    Keep trying to use that canard of absolute moral authority, Sir Loin of Milquetoast....it's one of the few rhetorical weapons you seem to have left other than gay-baiting.


    Posted by: cee at October 4, 2007 9:53 AM


    What the fuck are you talking about, Phari-cee? My point was only that poster Redneck Laura Nugent exposed him/herself as a liar, idiot, or both with his/her "one year active service" comment.

    ...and you are wrong in regard to the rhetorical weaponry at my disposal; not only can I effectively ridicule the Republican party as a refuge for self-hating conservative homos, but I can also easily get your scrofulous goat by admonishing you to ENLIST! Make an honest war-monger out of your pathetic self!

    FORT PIERRE, S.D. (AP) State Senator Dan Sutton (D) of Flandreau has been sued for $250,000 in damages by former legislative page Austin Wiese (WEES), who alleges Sutton (D) groped him in a motel room in Fort Pierre.

    Wiese's lawsuit alleges two counts of sexual battery and one count of sexual assault. It's a civil lawsuit no criminal charges have been filed.

    The suit claims Sutton (D) invited Wiese to stay with him at the motel during the 2006 session.

    Court documents say they shared the one bed in the room and that on three nights in a row, Sutton inappropriately touched and fondled Wiese, who then moved out of the room.

    Wiese, now 19, says he has suffered mental anguish, shame, indignity, embarrassment, pain and suffering.

    He's being represented by former Congressman and Governor Bill Janklow.

    Early this year, the state Senate held a hearing on the allegations. The Senate then voted to censure Sutton rather than expel him.

    SLOB
    "I effectively ridicule the Republican party as a refuge for self-hating conservative &#*&$"

    Why don't you redicule you own party first. LOL

    Pisses SLOB:

    "What a fucking liar. This blustering pussy has never touched a uniform or govt-issued weapon any more than I have."

    END QUOTE

    Well, I see I have been hitting home with my posts on you my friend. Good. I like it when I get a rise out of a liberal.

    There's nothing you can say to hurt me asshat. I served. The only one I have to please is my family and God.

    Oh, yeah, the one I carried shot lead unlike the water pistol you played with or the sperm you shoot out between your fingers today.

    Murtha is nothing more than a big pile of dung. The day the Iraq vet showe up at a meeting he was shooting his mouth off along with a Rep Moran, VA where the vet called his hand on every point, Moran and Murtha looked like deer in headlights.

    Pisses SLOB:

    "What the fuck are you talking about, Phari-cee? My point was only that poster Redneck Laura Nugent exposed him/herself as a liar, idiot, or both with his/her "one year active service" comment."

    END QUOTE

    One year of active service out of 35. What's it to ya loser. Get your ass in a wad. Let's face it, you are really a loser. A search on your user name shows thousands of results where you visit tons of boards mostly left wing extremist. The truth is you have no personal lie and your out is to post on the net.

    Get a life loser.

    Redneck Coward @ 8:11: "The Swift Boat ads, who I donated to I might add"

    Oh, I don't doubt that for a minute. Your statement, along with what we already know about you, lends credence to the fact that the Swiftboaters were nothing but a pathetic lying band of politically motivated smear merchants who knew nothing of Kerry, or his military service.

    Redneck coward: "The only one I have to please is my family and God."

    While I can only take your word for it that your family approves of your irrationally ignorant political flame throwing, I can say without a doubt that no one's God that I have ever heard of would approve of it.

    Whines SLOB:

    "Sure, if you had a dad that blew every scrap of your family's savings and credit at the casinos, all the while bitching at and smacking your mom for buying the kids too many fucking pencils or an extra pair of pants for school.

    If your mom spent more time than she would have liked dutifully picking your Republican Dad up from the police station (wearing big shades, of course, to hide one of her frequent domestic shiners), after he flew off the handle one more time at the cop addressing his drunk driving or fender-bender, depending on the particular instance, then your analogy of "Daddy Party/Mommy Party" is spot on."

    END QUOTE

    How old were you SLOB when your mommy finally pulled her tit out of your mouth? 18?

    Did you leave home before you turned 40? Or, do you still live at home.

    Al Gore claims Love Story was made after his life. I'd say 40 Year Old Virgin describes you.

    When's that last time you even took a trip out of town? Have you even got as far as the north 40 square inches of your sand box? Have you ever ventured out far enough that you couldn't dangle your big over the edge of your sandbox?

    Let's get down to facts. When's that last time you had a piece of ass? I bet you beat the shit out of your dick every night and surf web porn all night and all day in between your rants on the net.

    Hell boy, I love you. It gives me great satisfaction knowing I have hit home with you and you know I have you pegged boy.

    I own you.

    Redneck Coward: "Murtha is nothing more than a big pile of dung."

    Yea, yea, yea, and we can be supremely confident that the only reason you are saying that is because he is against your war.

    Oh no, a (D) caught in self-hatred based homosexual activity!....What will blindrat say?

    I thought the sodomists only had R's after their name!

    Oh and Sir Loin of Milquetoast, my goat is off limits to you and sitting nicely reading your umpteenth chickenhawk ploy. I have set my watch by it.

    My point was attacking your moral authority argument which included the senile bribe seeking Murtha who accused active duty soldiers of war crimes....and if he was a real man, would be apologizing to these men for prematurely judging them, most of whom have been cleared.

    But the left does not work that way.....they smear and lie then move on. Just like you Loin....you smear a veteran on this board without a shred of real evidence and move on.

    Murtha, Kerry, Durbin, Clinton, Obama, Reid....all smear merchants.....

    Is there anything the left won't do to promote their anti-America agenda?

    It is a serious question? Anyone? blindrat? Mike? wannawipe? Loin? Come on now...where is your line?

    Lussy hurls:

    "Oh, I don't doubt that for a minute. Your statement, along with what we already know about you, lends credence to the fact that the Swiftboaters were nothing but a pathetic lying band of politically motivated smear merchants who knew nothing of Kerry, or his military service."

    END QUOTE

    Hum, calling real combat vets who stayed under fire and returned fire while Kerry Heinz the fag ran? And you fags rip Rush.

    Pisses Lussy:

    "Yea, yea, yea, and we can be supremely confident that the only reason you are saying that is because he is against your war. "

    END QUOTE

    ABSCAM Sting.

    Undercover agent posing as Arab sheik: We geeve you 25 thousand dollar.

    Baby Hughey: Can I get back to you tomorrow with you on the 25k.

    Recently:

    Murtha: Our soldiers are murdering innocent Iraqi civilians.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

    You are a dumbass Mike.

    Redneck Coward: "Hell boy, it gives me great satisfaction to know I have hit home with you and you know I have you pegged boy."

    The other day while driving down a busy boulevard, i noticed cars slowing down and swerving ahead of me. As I got closer, I noticed a dog angrily barking and lashing at every car that went by. I, like everyone else managed to avoid hitting the deluded dog, who I'm sure was virtually certain in his little brain that he was 'protecting' his turf. I'm certain that dog, if he lived through the day, went to sleep that night with deep satisfaction 'knowing' that he had just "hit home" with all of us intruders,

    Its funny how Redneck Proud, AKA "Laura Bush" reminds me of that dog!

    Whines Lussy:

    "While I can only take your word for it that your family approves of your irrationally ignorant political flame throwing, I can say without a doubt that no one's God that I have ever heard of would approve of it. "

    END QUOTE

    I'm rather thought of Mike from those that know me. Survey after survey at work not only shows respect for me as an engineer but as someone who cares. I hate liberals my friend. Tough shit.

    Um, I never said I was religious you dumb son of a bitch. I always knew you didn;t believe in God Mike. Someone's God? There is only one God Mike. Allah is just some hog, humping fag.

    Redneck Coward: "Survey after survey at work not only shows respect for me as an engineer but as someone who cares."

    So what happens to you when you get on this discussion board? This must the just outlet you need to relieve your werewolf persona.

    As for 'hating liberals', it's nice to know that you have somehow found that one in a million work site that doesn't have any liberals working there.

    I am so glad 'Redneck Proud' posts his ignorant rants here on his lunch break.

    The other Reich Wingers must read his posts and cringe at the realization that that's how the rest of the world must view their own wrong-headed views.

    Ramble on Redneck, I'm guessing your co-workers are equally glad you're online polluting this blog instead of ranting, raving, and spitting your food all over the cafeteria table.

    I'm sure the 'pride' you feel coursing through your veins was well-earned. At least in your mind.

    Redneck Proud, could you reconsider using the obscenities and profanities that are generously sprinkled through your comments.

    It is offensive and does not advance the poster's argument but detracts from it.

    Additionally, some of us wind up skipping your posts. If I wanted to read such filth I would go to Bob's Porn Shop and buy it for myself.

    I don't like or enjoy it from Patsy, the sheits and SLOB when he goes on his periodic kicks and I dislike it much more from people who share some of my views.

    Grammie

    The coward Rush Limbaugh got out of his service to his country due to an anal cyst.

    And now he goes down on a microphone three hours a day, railing against 54% of the population, to show how 'patriotic' he is.

    Too bad for civilized society... that anal cyst grew into something calling itself 'Redneck Proud.'

    Daddy must be so proud of his little creation...

    "One year of active service out of 35."

    No - you are wrong. You can't even see how stupid and disingenuous you are making yourself look. One year of COMBAT service out of 35. But Murtha was ACTIVE between 1952 - when he enlisted - and, I think, 1956. He was a Marine drill instructor at the end of this period.

    You don't even know the meaning of the fundamental military phrase "active service", and your error mirrors precisely that made repeatedly on Fasces News; yet you expect us to believe that you were a soldier? Bullshit.

    >Redneck Proud, could you reconsider using the obscenities and profanities that are generously sprinkled through your comments.

    While I appreciate your attempt to rein in your wayward compatriot, Janet, I wonder what you think would be left of Redneck's posts if the cancerous rancor was removed.

    Not much...

    Slob, you mean this murtha?

    CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Let me ask you Mr. Murtha to give us some details about that. Draw us a picture of what happened at Haditha.

    REP. JOHN “JACK” MURTHA: Well, I’ll tell you exactly what happened. One Marine was killed and the Marines just said we’re going to take care – we don’t know who the enemy is, the pressure was too much on them, so they went into houses and they actually killed civilians. And, and –

    MATTHEWS:—was this My Lai? Was this a case of – when you say cold blood Congressman, a lot of people think you’re basically saying you got some civilians sitting in a room around a field and they’re executed.

    MURTHA: That’s exactly it.

    This murtha?


    CAMP PENDLETON -- A Marine Corps official has recommended that murder charges be dismissed against a Camp Pendleton squad leader accused in the deaths of 17 civilians killed in the Iraqi city of Haditha two years ago.

    Yeah, that Murtha - but my point, once again, is that Big Bad "veteran" Redneck Laura Nugent does not know the fundamental significance of the phrase "active service" or "active duty" to military personnel. This suggests to me strongly that claims of military service on the part of this blowhard (i.e Laura) are wisps of his pathetic imagination.

    Any soldier knows when he or she is active (full-time military operative), and when not (discharged, reserves). Redneck persists in conflating "active" with "combat", and that is simply too ignorant for credence.

    Olbermann sucks!
    He's a liar and a fraud!

    KO:"since Mr. Limbaugh will not say this, thank you for your service on behalf of all of us in this country"

    --------------------------

    And yet fromHRC's own startup, Mediamatters.org (http://mediamatters.org/items/200710020014?f=h_top)

    in their transcript of Rush's show are these items:

    McGough is "a valiant combat veteran" & "This man will always be a hero to this country with everyone."

    But I guess KO is right, Rush never explicitly thanked him for his service

    Keith Olbermann saying Limbaugh needs to support the troops after he was the first person to put up on television "Will Petreaus Betray Us?" Last time I checked, Patreaus is a solider. Mike never condemned Olbermann for this.

    Petreaus betrayed the hell out his soldiers and his country. He's a politician and a shill, who told demonstrable lies to congress.

    Petreaus betrayed the hell out his soldiers and his country. He's a politician and a shill, who told demonstrable lies to congress.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 4, 2007 4:30 PM

    Maybe he should have read verbatim from Daily Kos and Media Matters to congress. Then SLOB wouldn’t call him a traitor. Maybe Bush should of had Jesse McBeth testify so we could get the "real" story about what is going on in Iraq.

    Last time I checked, Patreaus is a solider. Mike never condemned Olbermann for this.

    Posted by: The Factor at October 4, 2007 4:15 PM


    Every one of the olbyloons are hypocrites in this regard. They all defended it (the add).

    http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=92684


    "Anderson's orders, and the orders of 1,161 other Minnesota guard members, were written for 729 days.

    Had they been written for 730 days, just one day more, the soldiers would receive those benefits to pay for school."

    These guardsmen were exteded for Bush's surge, but for ONE DAY short of the next tier of benefits. That's what a C-student "CEO president" will get you.


    Betrayal after betrayal. This admiistration treats our soldiers like a crooked grapefruit farmer treats migrant workers.

    "Maybe he should have read verbatim from Daily Kos and Media Matters to congress. Then SLOB wouldn’t call him a traitor."

    Well, he'd have had better odds of being honest, anyway.

    Notice that i am not digging back into history to find details of Petraeus' service record to dispute - I focus only on the overt lies and fabrications he told to congress and the country.

    Chuck Hagel on Petraeus' testimony:

    "Not only was it a dirty trick; it was Dishonest, Hypocritical, Dangerous, and Irresponsible".

    I think Chuck feels Betrayed!

    All you Libtards........kiss my ass. Then go pour gasoline over your heads and strike a match and burn. Then meet your 72 Hillaries in hell. Say Hi to KO down there.

    Chuck Hagel on Petraeus' testimony:

    "Not only was it a dirty trick; it was Dishonest, Hypocritical, Dangerous, and Irresponsible".

    I think Chuck feels Betrayed!

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 4, 2007 5:27 PM

    WOW Chuck Hagel! Well I guess I better agree with you know. LOL

    I guess you should support the Iraq war since Joe Libermann has come out in favor of it.

    If all the democrats thought he was a traitor then why did they confirm him and why did they sign on to the resolution condeming the MorON.org add?

    I guess you should support the Iraq war since Joe Libermann has come out in favor of it.

    If all the democrats thought he was a traitor then why did they confirm him and why did they sign on to the resolution condeming the MorON.org add?


    Posted by: The Factor at October 4, 2007 5:50 PM


    Liebermann was in rabbinical school during Vietnam (during a war he opposed), where several of his offspring reside today (during a war he sports a rigid boner for). He was also elected as the candidate of the "Conecticut for Liebermann party".

    Hagel did two tours of the toughest fighting in Vietnam, and is now simply exhibiting integrity and the ablity to reason.

    The Democrats in general are incredible pussies, and those among them who succumb to the vapid fairy-tales that underpin this occupation are to be reviled and distrusted - and hopefully will be brought to account for complicancy in this venal piracy.

    Chicken Blogger, you keep fooling yourself that it is only those WASCALLY REPUBLICANS who don't know how to behave in even halfway polite society if that makes you feel better.

    I am sure you and AAP and all his personalities have a great time moaning and groaning about the speck in other's eyes while ignoring the log in your own.

    Grammie

    http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=92684

    "Anderson's orders, and the orders of 1,161 other Minnesota guard members, were written for 729 days.

    Had they been written for 730 days, just one day more, the soldiers would receive those benefits to pay for school."

    These guardsmen were exteded for Bush's surge, but for ONE DAY short of the next tier of benefits. That's what a C-student "CEO president" will get you.


    Betrayal after betrayal. This admiistration treats our soldiers like a crooked grapefruit farmer treats migrant workers.
    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 4, 2007 5:20 PM


    Shameful treatment of soldiers. I did read this list of accomplishments from an article addressing the Minnesota guardsmen:

    The unit completed 137 reconstruction projects and captured about 400 detainees, according to a release from Walz's office. They also helped start Iraqi newspapers and produced documentaries on the U.S. military's work in Iraq.

    http://www.minnesotanationalguard.org/press_room/e-zine/articles/index.php?item=1074

    I was looking for the part where they abuse detainees, kill children, murder innocent Iraqis, ... Probably another cover-up.

    I am sure you and AAP and all his personalities have a great time moaning and groaning about the speck in other's eyes while ignoring the log in your own.

    Grammie

    Posted by: Janet Hawkins at October 4, 2007 7:13 PM


    Well put, Janet.

    I was looking for the part where they abuse detainees, kill children, murder innocent Iraqis, ... Probably another cover-up.

    Posted by: Sharon at October 4, 2007 7:41 PM


    Well, Sharon, when your cynical search finally does turn up something like that, you can be sure that those who devised the occupation, created the standards and rules of engagement, and who issue the general orders will lay the blame squarely on rank-and-file marines, soldiers, and guardsmen like those detailed in the articles above - then you, in turn, will excoriate the anti-war left for "smearing the troops".

    Can the rank-and-file marines, soldiers, and guardsmen claim they were only following orders?

    Can the rank-and-file marines, soldiers, and guardsmen claim they were only following orders?

    Posted by: Sharon at October 4, 2007 9:14 PM


    Well, the moral concept of Command Responsibility, which was once honored in this country, pretty much demands that such variables be taken into account. Under Bush, however, the only paradigm of military ethics is "shit rolling downhill".

    SLOB,

    Give credit where credit is due. Millions of dingbat leftists must acknowedge that Bush did a fabulous job taking down the Twin Towers. You believe that, don't you?

    SLOB,

    To elaborate, everything you say has to be applied to the rank and file service people who support the war. That is why the far left sites disparage the soldiers. One of the members of Code Pink called our soldiers terrorists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI81unmTDJ4There They are the ones who engage in the war and bring about the consequences. As one servicemen said to me through e-mail which I posted here: war is hell. The overwhelming majority of the military do not commit heinous criminal acts. I have seen you argue about the war in general having catastrophic effects. Do you side with Code Pink?

    People are still enlisting, re-signing. They all may not have the same motive, but they know better than you or I what happens in a war. Does your support extend to them? What do you say to a soldier, marine who not just completes the mission but believes in it and is willing to die for it?

    I try to understand the anger of those who believe they were misled and have to fight a war that they don't believe in. It should be very clear by now that if you decide to enter the military, you may have to fight a war that was commenced under false pretenses (I don't hold that view but you and others do). From what I read, re-enlistment figures are strong. Recruitment, not so strong. One would think that those who have served in a war zone would not want to endure that again if given a choice. Again, various motives.

    I do have a stake in what happens in the Middle East, particularly Iran because it is my belief that the draft will be re-instituted in the not so far future, if things continue as they have been. It will be blamed on Bush 2003, but it seems likely to occur if our country goes to war with Iran. In 10 years, when my son turns 18, he could be drafted (unless he volunteers). Ten years seems distant, but it isn't. Gulf 1 ended in 1991; twelve years later, look what happened. I do have a personal stake in what is happening now.

    No viable democratic candidate (at this point) is going to withdraw all troops.

    Rico: "Give credit where credit is due. Millions of dingbat leftists must acknowledge that Bush did a fabulous job taking down the twin towers. You believe that, don't you?"

    I personally know a few 'dingbat rightists' who DO actually believe "that Bush did a fabulous job taking down the twin towers". However, all of the "leftists" I know personally don't believe Bush was smart enough to pull off anything like that.

    Sharon,

    There is not going to be a draft. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever. Virtually nobody wants it. The only people in Washington who say they want it are people like Charley Rangel, who proposes the draft merely as a stunt. He does this in order to help us lose in Iraq.

    Mike,

    So you are complimenting W, or criticizing him?

    Can we agree that those who do think that Bush was behind 911 are kooks?

    By the way, I must agree with SLOB when he says that the Bush administration has abused our troops in Iraq. In fact, the Bush Administration has been very cruel to the troops, especially the National Guard, making these weekend warriors doing tour after tour. I am amazed that no Republican office holders ever seem to complain about that.

    I don't want a draft, Rico. But the troops cannot serve endless tours if there is a war with Iran. I hope that events don't continue on that course. I think Pat Bushanan is over-reacting (he believes we are headed that way). I haven't seen his latest posts but he has written several pieces about the issue (not a draft but war).

    It is simply amazing how so many of the Guard continue to give their all. I see many great stories of what they are doing, even though they are not supposed to take on those roles to this degree.

    Sharon,

    They may bomb Iran, but they are not going to invade and have a land war. It is not going to happen.

    The draft would have to be passed into law by the Congress, and signed by the President. Impossible. Nobody wants this.
    Nobody.

    Rico: "Can we agree that those that say Bush is behind 911 are kooks"

    I reluctantly agree.....I Only say "reluctantly" because two of the 911 conspiracy believers that I know personally are close enough to me that it pains me to call them that.

    There may not be a choice if there is a land war. I don't think it is imminent but Buchanan scares me. He is an incredible student of history. I am going to check his site now to see if there is anything this week on Iran.

    "They may bomb Iran, but they are not going to invade and have a land war. It is not going to happen"

    But what will stop Iran from crossing over into Iraq and forcing a ground war?

    Unintended consequences galore. Talk about opening pandora's box!

    Mike,

    It could be worse. Some of my relatives were always a little goofy.

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22661

    Sure enough, he has written on the subject again. You may be interested.

    Sharon,

    What Buchanan are you referring to?

    Are you saying, Mike, that the only reason you believe that Bush was not behind 9/11 is that he is not smart enough to have pulled it off?

    Patrick Buchanan. He ran for President in 2000 and dropped out. He used to be on Crossfire and is now a regular guest on MSNBC. He has even been on Countdown.

    I have been watching a series on Thurs. nights. I am outta here for now!

    Sharon,

    Patrick Buchanan and Robert Novak are the last two surviving members of the "Father Coughlin" wing of the Republican party. All other members of that wing left on Dec. 7, 1941. I do not take those two clowns seriously, and neither should you. You must be Catholic or something(not that anything is wrong with that).

    And Novak is the idiot who printed Valerie Plame's name. He should be in prison for that one.

    Sharon: "Are you saying, Mike, that the only reason Bush is not behind 9/11 is that he is not smart enough to have pulled it off"

    No Sharon, I'm not saying that at all. Even I don't believe Bush is THAT diabolical.

    The reason I made that statement is that to me, it is one of the most logical arguments for discounting any possiblity that the conspiracy theories might be true.

    SLOB,

    Give credit where credit is due. Millions of dingbat leftists must acknowedge that Bush did a fabulous job taking down the Twin Towers. You believe that, don't you?

    Posted by: Rico at October 4, 2007 10:04 PM

    No, I don't. I am, however, very open to consideration that Cheney et. al. actively ignored clear indications or even intelligence ("bin Laden Determined to Attack within US") that an imminent attack was planned. I would not surmise how specific their knowledge may have been in this regard, but Cheney's cabal at the PNAC had for years advocated a foreign policy aimed at a global Pax Americana, and they had officially expressed the following whimsy:


    "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor"

    (from a PNAC report: Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces, and Resources For a New Century (2000), Section V; Rebuilding America's Defenses; Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force.)


    Although they talked big like Napoleon, Cheney, Perle, Frum, Edelman, Rumsfeld, and the rest were really just greedy, impatient little babies; a 9/11 offered instant gratification to their ecstatic dreams.

    SLOB,

    But think of how boring your life would be if 911 had not happened. It's done wonders for you, too.

    I don't think you give Buchanan enough credit for his historical perspective, Rico.

    Rico,

    Wonders my ass. I've got a strapping 16-year old son and another one 14. I don't want them and their freinds trapped into dying for the delusions of a clutch of Straussian Nostrodumbasses, and for the profits of their corporate organs at Blackwater and Halliburton. I resent the ongoing creation of enemies for us.

    SLOB,

    From your delusional beliefs one would logically conclude that you are a shut-in or something. It is not healthy for your kids to listen to somebody like you day after day.

    Perhaps the best evidence that you are an out of kilter personality is your utter humourlessness.

    "From your delusional beliefs one would logically conclude that you are a shut-in or something"


    Rico, anyone who can sign on to the prima fascie balderdash that underpins this war, and who can find anything funny about it at all, has lost their lisence to "logically concluse" anything.

    ...and Rico, I am lauging my ass off right now. Jon Stewart just aired Bush saying: "My job is a decision-making job. And as a result, I make a lot of decisions". What a bumblefuck!

    Stewart's evisceration of Bush's veto of the Child Health Care bill has got to be some of his best satire.

    I am really motivated to pay for health care of children whose parents make more money than my family does. Take care of your kids and get rid of your excesses! What incentive does an employer have to cover employees and what incentive do employees have to contribute toward private insurance?

    "Now the Bush administration wants to return CHIP to its roots.

    Last month's guideline is designed to reduce the number of families at higher incomes who drop private health insurance for a cheaper, taxpayer-funded deal.

    About 25% to 50% of CHIP's children, or 1.5 million to 3 million, previously had private insurance, the Congressional Budget Office says. They now cost taxpayers $1.25 billion to $2.5 billion a year."

    http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:YYbyR8o1KQwJ:www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-09-23-chip_N.htm+healthcare+children+income+level+debate&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a

    SLOB,

    Further evidence that you are fucked up in the head is that Bush is on your mind 24/7 and 365 days a year. It's the only topic that interests you anymore. If Stewart did a joke at a Democrat's expense you wouldn't get it.

    A very moving article by Christopher Hitchens, unlike anything I have ever seen written by him.

    A Death in the Family (Soldier killed who was inpsired by Hitchens; he met the soldier's family after his death).

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/hitchens200711?currentPage=1

    What would possibly motivate a person named "Rico" to spend every waking moment thinking about one George W Bush?

    Madness!

    Posted by: at October 4, 2007 1:01 AM

    First Grammie attacks Laura Nugent and his debate technique:

    Redneck Proud, could you reconsider using the obscenities and profanities that are generously sprinkled through your comments.

    It is offensive and does not advance the poster's argument but detracts from it.

    Additionally, some of us wind up skipping your posts. If I wanted to read such filth I would go to Bob's Porn Shop and buy it for myself.

    I don't like or enjoy it from Patsy, the sheits and SLOB when he goes on his periodic kicks and I dislike it much more from people who share some of my views.

    Grammie

    Posted by: Janet Hawkins at October 4, 2007 2:41 PM

    Then she defends Laura Nugent from someone she thinks is anti-Republican:

    Chicken Blogger, you keep fooling yourself that it is only those WASCALLY REPUBLICANS who don't know how to behave in even halfway polite society if that makes you feel better.

    I am sure you and AAP and all his personalities have a great time moaning and groaning about the speck in other's eyes while ignoring the log in your own.

    Grammie

    Posted by: Janet Hawkins at October 4, 2007 7:13 PM

    Don't be hard on Grammie, though, she probably just had her false teeth in backwards yesterday.

    And your comment of 3:00 adds what?

    Don't be hard on Grammie, though, she probably just had her false teeth in backwards yesterday.

    Posted by: Don't Bite the Mouth That Feeds You at October 5, 2007 3:00 PM


    Thanks, patsy!

    Sheit is a very apt student of KO as evidenced by what he leaves out and replaces with his own spin to make a non existent point.

    I was responding to a post by WHY DO YOU THINK CRAIGS AND VOK, AMONG OTHERS NO LONGER POST HERE....?

    ">Redneck Proud, could you reconsider using the obscenities and profanities that are generously sprinkled through your comments.

    While I appreciate your attempt to rein in your wayward compatriot, Janet, I wonder what you think would be left of Redneck's posts if the cancerous rancor was removed.

    Not much...
    Posted by: WHY DO YOU THINK CRAIGS AND VOK, AMONG OTHERS NO LONGER POST HERE....? at October 4, 2007 2:50 PM "

    Caps mine.

    Sheit turns this sentence:

    "Chicken Blogger, you keep fooling yourself that it is only those WASCALLY REPUBLICANS who don't know how to behave in even halfway polite society if that makes you feel better."

    into a defense of Laura Nugent by me.

    Sheit is a gold star KO acolyte and sycophant.

    Grammie

    All the Olbyloons are acolytes and sychophants, it's part of their job description. And apt pupil comes naturally to them as some of the more diehard ones watch his show both times it airs, then record both versions on tape in case there's some sort of retape of a single segment. Yes, it's obsessvie but that in a nutshell (accent on the nut part) is the mentality of the Olybloon.

    Interesting how you Reich-Wingers will see a KO acolyte and sychophant in someone who didn't even utter the name KO.

    You probably see KO fans in every shadow of your house.

    You feel so threatened by him, he's all you think about.

    You feel so powerless against him, all your enemies shall bear KO's likeness.

    What a petty shallow existence you must live.

    Cheers!

    Posted by: Your hypocrisy knows no bounds! at October 5, 2007 6:57 PM


    Oh boy, that's original. I wonder who you stole that from?

    > Interesting how you Reich-Wingers will see a KO acolyte and sychophant in someone who didn't even utter the name KO.

    That's right. Somebody who echoes and parrots all the positions that KO spouts, and then, with millions of blogs out there,chooses to come to a blog about Olbermann. Yeah, how could anyone get that idea?

    > Interesting how you Reich-Wingers will see a KO acolyte and sychophant in someone who didn't even utter the name KO.

    That's right. Somebody who echoes and parrots all the positions that KO spouts, and then, with millions of blogs out there,chooses to come to a blog about Olbermann. Yeah, how could anyone get that idea?

    Posted by: johnny dollar at October 5, 2007 7:16 PM


    Parrots all the positions KO spouts?

    Anti-Abortion
    Pro-Military
    Pro-Business
    Pro-Death Penalty
    Pro-Small Government
    Pro-Border Fence
    Pro-Fiscal Responsibility

    Since when did KO become a conservative?

    And, you may not know this johnny (you have proven you aren't too bright) but there are links to this site on about half of all the political opinion sites online.

    Perhaps some people come here who are neither attackers nor defenders or KO and just want to talk politics?

    Oh yeah, I forgot, it's not about politics with you, it's just about hypocritically smearing someone who takes on your 'mothership' fox news channel.

    You are worthless shill who couldn't be more out of touch with reality!

    There are other sites that offer political discussion. Could it be that come here because you don't have to register and that no one is banned (AAP temporarily banned but not permanently?

    Sharon, you got that right as far as you went.

    I think they take advantage of this site's totally open forum to try to sabotage it while getting an extra kick from venting their spleen.

    How else can we explain Coward Watch with the constant rants that we are inbred incestuous racists etc; Patsy who after months of repeating the same profane derogatory thing over and over has now switched to a new profane mantra about RK and CEE; those who hijack names and create a whole debate with themselves under 5 or 6 names; those who create multiple names and do the same thing as the hijackers; and those that come and go who do nothing but spew profanity and obscenities.

    I do my best to ignore them but every once in a while I get ticked off and give them what they really want, a reaction.

    What a sad commentary that grown people would play such juvenile games.

    Grammie

    Johnny is too busy writing his anti-propaganda propaganda piece for the evening to defend how wrong he is.

    And Grammie-

    Whatever makes you feel better about yourself and this website.

    Self-delusion (as well as whatever medication you are on) comes in real handy to combat senility.

    Make sure you wash it down with your trademark shot of Vodka.

    DUMBSHIT! I mean Bovine!

    Are you ever going to grow AN OVARY! you stupid looking ruminant!

    Ask Johnny BU$HWIPE to post the FUCKIN LOG showing I visited this crapper of a site during the last 24 hours!

    GROW AN OVARY AND CONTINUE MAKING YOURSELF LOOK STUPID!
    Either with or without the OVARY, you still remain the most moron paranoid BU$HWIPE!

    I rest my case.

    Grammie

    Like my preoccupation with who posts under which name !

    Posted by: Janet Hawkins( in a sudden moment of clarity) at October 5, 2007 8:33 PM

    Posted by: Why don't you think at October 6, 2007 2:34 AM


    Leave it to this idiot to act like someone else is obessive when they point out that HE posts under a gazillion names in order to engage in conversations with himself about how bad opponents are, and to pretend to be other people voicing support for something he's posted under another name...

    You're as weird and dishonest as they come, moron, and it's a pleasure to see Johnny bust you at your games occasionally.

    I guess she feels her clairvoyancy levels increase proportionately with her alcohol levels.
    What a stooge !
    What a lush !

    Posted by: Why don't you think at October 6, 2007 2:58 AM


    At some point, I hope one of your other identities tells this identity of yours that you need new material... :D

    Please, lush, since you have absolutely nothing to talk about except "names", list all of these other "so called" identities.

    Posted by: Why don't you think at October 6, 2007 3:30 AM


    Why, the number of times Johnny has busted you for double identities is roughly equivalent to the number of words you've cut-n-pasted.

    I doubt you know who you are and or what you, yourself, have said.

    That's right. Somebody who echoes and parrots all the positions that KO spouts, and then, with millions of blogs out there,chooses to come to a blog about Olbermann. Yeah, how could anyone get that idea?

    Posted by: johnny dollar at October 5, 2007 7:16 PM

    Dollar, you are hillarious. Think about this statement of your's next time you make your frequent discalimer that YOU have no partisan axe to grind, and that you are only a champion of an open, honest, press.

    SLOB, you were rightfully and justifiably furious when one these churlish and childish sheits hijacked YOUR name to announce DEATHS in YOUR FAMILY and then proceeded to hijack other's names to have a round robin discussion with himself posing as a half dozen other people.

    Do you want to join those of us who condemn the practice and the people who play these disgusting juvenile games?

    Grammie

    Grammie, I was laughing at Dollar's hypocrisy in regard to who is parroting who. I was not even aware that the subject was highjacking. My position is that highjacking should not be done, but this board is at best an amusing way to waste too much time and in the big picture it is entirely irrelevant.

    SLOB, a bit of a cop out I think.

    It was not just about hijacking names but all the pathologies that go with it:

    "How else can we explain Coward Watch with the constant rants that we are inbred incestuous racists etc; Patsy who after months of repeating the same profane derogatory thing over and over has now switched to a new profane mantra about RK and CEE; those who hijack names and create a whole debate with themselves under 5 or 6 names; those who create multiple names and do the same thing as the hijackers; and those that come and go who do nothing but spew profanity and obscenities."

    My comment @ 2:41 PM that started this had a reference to you:

    "I don't like or enjoy it (profanities and obscenities) from Patsy, the sheits and SLOB when he goes on his periodic kicks and I dislike it much more from people who share some of my views."

    Condemn it or not but no soothing caveats, please.

    Grammie

    Grammie, you bore the piss out of me.

    Whatever, dear.

    Grammie

    BTW, Bovine sez "but, but, but... Johhny told me," so there you have it. A twofer.

    MORON PARANOID BU$HWIPES!

    Posted by: To the other DUMBSHITS molested by Bovine at October

    I have never, I repeat never have said that.

    You are too much, patsy. Call me a liar, but, have no proof. Shocker! Are you related to mike?

    Even those in you side have told you to stop it, but you never learn. That's one of you "best qualities"

    ROFLMAO!

    Posted by: To the other DUMBSHITS molested by Bovine at October 7, 2007 1:51 AM


    Oh, patsy, you made the same claim/lie last week. Can you name the ones on "my side," by chance? You didn't answer before, don't expect an answer this time.

    He has never...I repeat never "busted me for double identities" as you have claimed.
    Just another alcohol fueled fantasy from Natasha, our mean spirited, lying, drunken night owl !

    Posted by: Why don't you think at October 6, 2007 3:57 PM


    Natasha? One of your alters?... :D

    2:42, was that an answer? Don't see it....

    You don't see the advice others on "your side" have given you...

    by patsy

    Kinda hard to see something that's not there, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Jeff: "Correct me if I'm wrong."

    Jeff, I've been watching people correct you for 8 months, and you are USUALLY wrong, but it never does any good.

    The funny thing about you is that you can be wrong 50 times in a row, and it doesn't faze you in the slightest....but if you happen to be right even once, that is all you will remember.

    GOP, Bush & the Olbyhaters....
    10 million children: fuck em !


    Posted by: Why don't you think at October 7, 2007 2:52 PM


    How many of the 10 mil are illegal? Care to fill us in?

    How many of the 10 mil are illegal? Care to fill us in?

    Posted by: royal king at October 7, 2007 5:31 PM

    None, you stupid piece of shit. You have no idea what the SCHIP program is, and who it was designed to cover, do you?


    Democratic SCHIP Bill Benefits Illegal Immigrants

    http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:SOMpwcsS
    bVwJ:messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php%3FboardId%3D566751%26articleId%3D323285%26func%3D6%26channel%3DNews%2BAOL%2BManaged%26filterRead%3Dfalse%26filterHidden%3Dtrue%26filterUnhidden%3Dfalse+SCHIP+illegal+immigrants&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us&client=firefox-a

    At least address the issue in a reasonable manner.

    When I was a teacher (of poor African American children), they knew who to come to when they didn't have lunch money. I think the legislation goes too far. I am not against more funding than currently allotted and believe those in areas of high cost of living should receive assistance. My family is one of those who could benefit from SCHIPS. We have a 99 Windstar and a 96 Saturn. My husband had a heart attack in September of 2001 and cannot have a lapse in coverage. His job has so far been secure, but who knows? The kid in Gautemala has no social programs. He is an orphan who lives with numerous family members. You can't give kids in the community money directly (as you could here) because they would be targets.

    I would be happy to have $ set up a pay pal account if you would like to pay for my son's braces.

    No wannawipe, people have to live with their choices.....See the story behind Graeme Frost, the boy whose parents relied on Maryland's S-chip program to pay for his health care following a car accident.

    "Graeme recounted his sob story to Congress in an effort to show the mean Republicans that poor kids need health insurance, too. Baltimore Sun reporter Matthew Hay Brown profiled the "poor" Frost family, but failed to ask some important questions. As it turns out, little Graeme isn't so poor, and bloggers are on the story."

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/


    ###
    You see, wannawipe, the middle-class has to remember to act responisbly and not rely on government entitlement programs so they can maintain a lifestyle. If assets need to be liquidated to provide for necessities, then so be it....I have no reason to believe that my tax money should support the entire healthcare bill for a 22 yo person in a family making over 60,000 a year.....The premiems for catastrophic health care coverage are reasonable and affordable in such a situation unless these people are living beyond their means.

    Stealing from the truly poor to pay for the middle-class is wrong....Assets should be assessed and only those who are truly poor should get such extravagant public assistance. The Democrats are playing to the lowest common denominator and scaring people. They are also feeding the bad tendency of human nature not to save for a rainy day and to live beyond means.

    Nope....Government was never meant to be a nanny for people over 18 who are able to earn a living without somekind of accountability. Assets should be used and if people choose to take chances and not get insurance, they should have to pay a steep price to become on of the "entitled."

    Christian Foundation for Children and Aging is legitimate. You can look at the website and judge for yourself. They send an annual report of finances and people visit those they sponsor all the time. I don't care if you believe it or not. It is my business which charity I support. Whenever I have some extra money, I give to ST Jude's Children's Hospital. Are you familiar with how St Jude's operates?

    I am not against SCHIPS. I said that already. There has to be some reasonableness. If something happens as you suggested, there is COBRA which allows the EE to pay for the insurance at the rate the ER paid for a period of time. As long as you don't have a lapse in coverage, you can't be refused a new plan. We would make dang sure to pay for insurance under COBRA by borrowing the money until I got back in the work force. We would sell our house if we had to, send kids to public school instead of homeschooling. We would seek help from people willing and able to give it in any capacity, as we would do for others. And yes, pray, whatever God's will is. Even people at higher incomes may have to face downsizing in a circumstance such as that.

    Sooooo... it is everyone for his own.

    No, that just sounds like another one of your personal attacks. I don't even know what you really mean. I told you my situation. If I were in that top bracket, I would voluntarily give away my money to organizations such as St. Jude's. If a family income is over $60,000 and the family does not reside in a high cost of living area yet they can't afford private insurance, what can they afford? What kind of lifestyle are people entitled to? I say again, reasonableness.

    I don't trust socialized medicine, but I understand the need for coverage also. What do you say about those employers who say that they can't keep up with insurance costs but we know it is because it affects their bottom line.

    I believe in tort reform. Everything goes up in price eventually, but insurance costs are out of control, no doubt about that. To say that Bush doesn't care about children because of the recent veto is wrong, in my opinion. I don't know how old you are, but I bet I'll be pitching in for your social security while mine is depleted all the time. It has been a problem for years. Let me invest my own money. Then the "warmongers" can't touch it.

    If you are looking for a Utopian world, you won't find it here.

    Christian Foundation for Children and Aging is legitimate. You can look at the website and judge for yourself. They send an annual report of finances and people visit those they sponsor all the time. I don't care if you believe it or not. It is my business which charity I support. Whenever I have some extra money, I give to ST Jude's Children's Hospital. Are you familiar with how St Jude's operates?

    I am not against SCHIPS. I said that already. There has to be some reasonableness. If something happens as you suggested, there is COBRA which allows the EE to pay for the insurance at the rate the ER paid for a period of time. As long as you don't have a lapse in coverage, you can't be refused a new plan. We would make dang sure to pay for insurance under COBRA by borrowing the money until I got back in the work force. We would sell our house if we had to, send kids to public school instead of homeschooling. We would seek help from people willing and able to give it in any capacity, as we would do for others. And yes, pray, whatever God's will is. Even people at higher incomes may have to face downsizing in a circumstance such as that.

    Sooooo... it is everyone for his own.

    No, that just sounds like another one of your personal attacks. I don't even know what you really mean. I told you my situation. If I were in that top bracket, I would voluntarily give away my money to organizations such as St. Jude's. If a family income is over $60,000 and the family does not reside in a high cost of living area yet they can't afford private insurance, what can they afford? What kind of lifestyle are people entitled to? I say again, reasonableness.

    I don't trust socialized medicine, but I understand the need for coverage also. What do you say about those employers who say that they can't keep up with insurance costs but we know it is because it affects their bottom line.

    I believe in tort reform. Everything goes up in price eventually, but insurance costs are out of control, no doubt about that. To say that Bush doesn't care about children because of the recent veto is wrong, in my opinion. I don't know how old you are, but I bet I'll be pitching in for your social security while mine is depleted all the time. It has been a problem for years. Let me invest my own money. Then the "warmongers" can't touch it.

    If you are looking for a Utopian world, you won't find it here.

    Sharon....read about the democrats' example of SHIP helping children at the WEEKLY STANDARD post address I posted above....It clearly proves this SCHIP issue is a fraud and playing on people's insecurities.

    It is not everyone on their own but about personal responsibility. I should not pay for a man's child's healthcare because this selfish father chooses not to spend his own money on health insurance while spending it on private schools for his children, owning his business building, and other luxuries....No, it is not fair and the democrats put this family out as an example!

    Cee,

    I read about that story on other thread, I think from Factor. I asked for help to pay for my son's braces but haven't gotten a response yet : )

    Btw, wannawipe, the example the democrats gave about the need for SCHIP, the Frosts, could have easy afforded their PRIVATE health insurance premiums nd not go to the government for the hand-out ....

    "Kim Priestep at Wizbang is outraged and says, 'hardworking taxpayers who sacrifice many things such as expensive private schools and expensive houses in order to buy their own health care for their families are supposed to subsidize this family's health insurance premiums.'

    "Since Halsey Frost owns his own business, he should have taken responsibility and purchased insurance for his family. The Baltimore Sun claimed that it would have cost the Frosts $1200 per month for health insurance. Bob Vineyard at InsureBlog says this is ludicrous:

    "$1200 per month for a family of 6 in Baltimore. Really? What are they smoking?

    "A check of a quote engine for zip code 21250 (Baltimore) finds a plan for $641 with a $0 deductible and $20 doc copays.

    "Adding a deductible of $750 (does not apply to doc visits) drops the premium to $452. That's almost a third of the price quoted in the article. Doesn't anyone bother to check the facts?"

    These righties lovetheir entitlement programs for CEOs of oil, defense, pharmacuetical, and big agra corporations - this war is nothing but corporate welfare to the tune of 700 billion dollars - but think that families making ca. $45,000 need to "show some personal responsibility" when it comes to cancer and other diseases that are increasingly caused by industrial effluents that are not accounted for by their emmitters.

    We do not live on the zero-sum gameboard that John Stossel and Grover Norquist tell these morons is our economy. A healthy and educated population raises the standards of living for everyone - too bad for you that your position above some people in the prevailing arbitrary economic hierarchy is your only source of self-respect.

    Socialized medicine now! Free education through college for everyone!

    Another reason for the rabid left to NOT support HRC......her husband in 1995 referring to the rabid right......

    "How dare you suggest that we, in the freest nation on earth, live in tyranny? How dare you call yourselves patriots and heroes? I say to you, all of you, there is nothing patriotic about hating your country or pretending that you can love your country but despise your government. There is nothing heroic about turning your back on America or ignoring your own responsibilities. If you want to preserve your own freedom, you must stand up for the freedom of others with whom you disagree, but you also must stand up for the rule of law. You cannot have one without other."


    ###
    Thanks to the obese PARTISAN, Limbaugh for digging up this little jewel to provide context to the "people's candidate," HRC. Like I say, how people like Mike can say he can support HRC despite her conflicting views regarding the war, government power and corporate support.....

    I am sure the anti-Government crusader, Keith Olbermann will never use this quote on COUNTDOWN.

    Sharon,

    I am not attacking you personally.

    If you go back and read my post, I said "I hope you have not fallen for one of those scams"

    As for Doctor Cee,

    I also know from some of my friends, Doctors, that they will refuse consultation if the patient tries to use coverage by some health insurance companies.

    Why?

    Because they, Doctors, don't want to waste their time trying to make a DUMBSHIT on the other side of the phone understand their (Doctor's) opinion and wait for their (adjustors) opinion.

    I know the system is complicated and burdensome. In MY opinion, I will still go for socialized health care.

    BTY, FUCK YOU!!! Phallu-Cee!!

    RK, I do believe that Patsy has been busted/outed by sheit's very own words!


    "Sooooooo....

    You are contributing to the welfare of a child in Guatemala, yet you oppose aid to those children already living in the USA.

    My! What a nice Christian you are!
    Posted by: Excuse me Sharon at October 7, 2007 11:55 PM "

    Followed by these:

    "Sharon,

    My sarcastic remark about your concern for a Guatemalan kid is twofold.
    .........................................
    Posted by: Average American Patriot at October 8, 2007 2:03 PM"


    "Sharon,

    I am not attacking you personally.
    .................................
    BTY, FUCK YOU!!! Phallu-Cee!!
    Posted by: Average American Patriot at October 8, 2007 11:30 PM"

    'Excuse me Sharon' is really AAP, aka Patsy.

    Just a little aside here, Patsy deserves credit for abstaining from his trademark obscenities and profanities from two or three of his comments. Sheit must have well nigh super human self control to pull that off.

    Grammie

    wannawipe ignores the obvious use of the national treasury by a family that could easily afford insurance for their children....a reasonable and responsible action expected of good parents......

    Instead, we will make endorce millions of people to rely on the federal government for a basic need and have the government (state) control this for all of us.....this sledgehammer to solve the selfishness and narcissistic activities of a growing entitlement generation....

    Give up control....and you never get it back....

    Ok, I know where the radicals, Loin and wannawipe stand....I knew it 6 months ago....anyone else like to comment on the Frost's behavior and see it exacly as Loin sees Mr. nameless CEO, or Mrs. nameless defense contractor....greed, self-preservation, entitlement mentality?....

    All the same attitude, just different proportions and different party affiliations....

    But one allows the growth of the state....a very anti-American and unconstitutional idea. Which is worse? Giving up yor freedom to a huge central federal government or allowing the market to work within humane and rational legally set boundries, to provide for the population?

    I say Maryland's citizens should choose to support the upper-middle-class Frosts with their 500K home, private schools and lucrative business that I am sure is providing for their 401K/retirement but not for basic, and inexpensive, healthcare coverage....if they want....leave the federal treasury alone though....according to the US Constitution, this is how it is supposed to work....

    Ah, but the radical left wants to leave that old scrap from the 18th century behind for some new stuff (that has proven to fail and lead to totalitarianism) from the 19th and 20th centuries....socialism (Marxism)...

    Not my cup-of-tea.

    cee,

    Socialized medicine is available in all western nations but ours; moreover, our health care ranking falls yearly.

    Just because you were TOLD it was bad, doesn't mean that it is, son...

    I have personal family experience with relatives who live in Sweden, blindrat. Their care is no more convienient or compassionate than our system. My uncle is a machinist and has held two jobs all his life in order to maintain their standard of living. Their taxes have increased through the years and they clearly believe they have never gained anything over what my family has over in The United States....In fact, he is of the opinion that despite vacation time (which he uses to make extra money under the table), we have actually more leasure time and the disposable income to enjoy it, than he and his friends do.

    Healthcare is no better in Sweden's system, although he never has had nor does he know of anyone, not receiving proper care. He does feel that he will not get his money's worth in the end because he rarely needs the doctor yet pays so much for it through his taxes. He is 62. We'll see, but all I know is that the only thing he thinks is better about living in Sweden is the climate ...otherwise he believes he works to pay his tax bill.

    I think people should not pay for other's poor, selfish choices, blindrat. It is clear that this family in Maryland chose not to provide healthcare coverage for their children despite two adults who could become gainfully employed in an occupation that provides coverage....They have assets that take away money that could be used to invest in their child's healthcare.

    Don't blame me about this family....the democrats chose to demogogue the issue and have the 12 yo give a speech....his parents are obvious a part of the "me" generation and expect the government to guarantee them an upper-middle class lifestyle.

    I just deal with facts, blindrat. And once again, you chose to argue your point your way, I chose to argue mine my way....

    And you'll lose, again.

    cee,

    If offering anecdotal evidence is your way of starting an argument, son, then you've already lost...

    I've got two uncles in Sweden who loves socialized medicine...

    I am not surpirsed that your family would love socialized medicine, blindrat. There is a genetic disposition to sloth.

    I posted evidence about a family used by the democrats as "the" Schip family...You chose to ignore the post. Fine. Leaving it there unanswered once again shows how you fail to ever persuade or show your position is superior.

    You specifically said, "Just because you were TOLD it was bad, doesn't mean that it is, son..." I retorted adequetly to your pathetic statement with personal, 35 years worth of, exchanges that gives me the impression that the Swedish system is not any better for the average, middle-class family than our system. I am more than happy to maintain the market-based system of payment because it spurs greater medical advancements and allows people to choose what kind of coverage they want....if any at all. One size fits all socialism is inefficient, impersonal, expensive and takes away my right as a person, father and husband to decide what is best for my family. I take my responsibility to provide for my family very seriously and do not like the government intruding on such decisions.

    You may like to give up freedom for security in the simple provision of necessity to your family, I do not....Feeding, shelter, health, clothing, education is my responsibility as A PARENT.....The federal government has enough to do providing things for me and my family I am not capable of, like national security and domestic tranquility. There is the difference. The mommy state is a recent development and one I have yet to see as any better than what the founders saw fit to provide for us.

    The states should be managing healthcare coverage for the indigent as they should be managing the access to education....The federal system is ill-equipped to do this and flies in the face of the structure of The US Constitution.

    cee,

    C'mon, son! Personal attacks already? Running out of ammo so quick, child?

    Shoulds and coulds don't mean anything when we are at the bottom of the list, healthwise, for industrialized nations...

    blindrat, you are of the mind that socialized medicine would solve the problem....I disagree....

    What measures of health are you talking about with the US being at the bottom of the list?....Specifics would be nice....

    Life expectancy?
    Preventable early death?
    Infant mortality?

    What? And then I would like to see your evidence of the cause and effect relationship between a private system and the measures you site....Not just "shoulds" and "perhaps" but actual data that proves a private system in a country like ours is the reason for these measures being where they are....

    You opened up this conversation....show me the scientific data showing the link.....private pay = low measures of you choice.

    I've got two uncles in Sweden who loves socialized medicine...

    Posted by: blindrat at October 9, 2007 11:14 AM


    I'm sure you have cells/relatives all over the world. Coulds and shoulds don't mean anything when you are at the bottom of the list for a vest. What's the matter, no balls?

    Let's start with infant mortality and life expectancy at birth, child...

    Good indicators of the quality of health care...

    "blindrat, you are of the mind that socialized medicine would solve the problem....I disagree...."

    It would certainly solve THESE problems:

    1) - Close to 50 million uninsured Americans.

    2) - People unable to buy insurance because of age.

    3) - People unable to buy insurance because of chronic or pre-existing conditions.

    4) - Companies firing employees under the guise of 'other' issues because of age or pre-existing conditions that are causing their overall premiums to skyrocket.

    5) - The difficulty of many to follow the American dream of self employment because of the fear of joining the uninsured. In other words, it stifles entrepeneurship like nothing else.

    6) - The personal bankruptcy rate in which well over 50% are a direct result of a medical condition. Many, if not most of those affected WERE insured when the medical crisis began.

    7) - The fact that many underinsured or uninsured Americans will not go to the hospital for ANY reason, life threatening or not, simply out of personal pride and a fear of financially ruining their family.

    8) - A system in which medical decisions are made by non - medical personel strickly for the bottom line if non - medical private enities (insurance companies and stockholders), and not what is really best for the patient (or the non-patient who SHOULD be a patient).

    9) - A system heavily weighted by parasitic insurance company gatekeeper entities who contribute nothing themselves to the healing process, but take away plenty. In other words, our current system reeks of inefficiency because of this one aspect alone.

    10) - There are SOME essential problems and needs that the private sector driven by the profit motive simply can NEVER solve entirely on their own. A nation's medical care is one of them, just like publicly funded education.

    I you think you don't care about any or all of the above, keep this in mind;....Just because you have insurance today doesn't mean you will have it tomorrow. That can and does change in a flash.

    The bottom line is that we will never be a completely civilized nation until this problem is adequately addressed.

    Once again....my posts are ignored as the leftists change the argument.

    1) The example the democrats gave, The Frosts, could have afforded premiums for their family...their assets show that their net worth was such that private insurance premiums could have been paid.

    2) Mrs. Frost was working for the family business. Sorry, but Mrs. Frost could have sought emplyment elsewhere while Mr. Frost "pursued the American Dream of self employment," and gained valuable benefits like health insurance from he occupation.

    3) Neither Mike of blindrat shows that a socialist system from The United States federal government would solve any measure of "healthcare quality." Blindrat only repeats "infant moratality," but will a socialist, government run system improve the IMR in the USA? Do you have data to show this would be the case. How about data that shows the private system contributes to the increase in the US IMR? Data? No? I did not think so.....

    Mike you demogoguery does not convince me. Adults need to be adults....not but the big car, use the private school, buy the big house, buy the real estate or take the vacation UNTIL the necessities are insured....and one's healthcare is a necessity like food, shelter and clothing. A responsible person saves. takes out insurance, takes out disability insurance, and insures at least one parent is employed with a job that offers health insurance as a benefit. If not....you buy it....The Frosts, like most middle-class Americans, could afford health insurance if they had the right priorities.

    Don't blame me about The Frosts....your ruling class chose these upper-middle class spend-thrifts as the example and placed their 12 yo little boy in the harsh spot-light.

    Personal responsibility and reasonable use of resources in the richest nation on Earth as served us well for over 200 years....why should socilaism be needed if people are able to afford such luxuries even before they decide to purchace catastrophic insurance coverage?

    My opposition to SCHIP is summarized by the following editorial:

    "I support renewing S-CHIP to provide health care to children in low-income families, but I also believe we need to ensure that the children’s health program is available for children who need it, and not for adults, people who enter the country illegally, or families who already have private insurance.

    "The Democratic legislation takes a program originally meant for children of low-income families and expands it to cover some families earning up to $83,000 and illegal immigrants, while moving millions of children from private health insurance to government programs.

    "In 2006, 118,501 children and 101,919 adults in Michigan received health care from the S-CHIP program. Incredibly, this means that 46 percent of Michigan’s funding allotment intended to give poor children health insurance actually went to cover adults.

    "The Wall Street Journal further described this problem in its August 9 editorial: “The bill goes so far as to offer increasing ‘bonus payments’ to states as they enroll more people in their SCHIP programs. To grease the way, the bill re-labels children’ as anyone under 25, and ‘low income’ as up to… $82,600 for a family of four.”

    "It is unfathomable to think that Democrats want to expand a program that currently does not meet the full objective of covering poor children, and expand it to try to insure single adults. I’m not sure what part of “children’s health care” liberals in Congress do not understand.

    "And to pay for their huge expansion, House Democrats need 22 million new smokers to begin lighting up over the next ten years. Over two million kids will move from private health care to Washington-based, government run health care under the House leadership’s plan."


    ###
    I truly believe only people WHO NEED the government's help should receive it.....I may need it someday.....but not if I still have my huge house, 2 new cars and lots of other assets....No.....these go and I sacrifice my luxuries to provide what I am responsible to provide as a man and father for me and my family, then I put my hand out to the government.

    Asset checks and insuring truly needy people are receiving help is WONDERFUL!

    But people like the Frosts play the system so they maintain their lifestyle, and it is not right and it is not healthy.....

    Entitlement mentality is a growing problem and not healthy for a democracy and free society. Reliance on central power for such necessities is a fundamental flaw of leftist ideology and 180 degrees from what The US Constitution established.

    Oh, and Mike....what amount of that 50 Million peopl not insured are illegal aliens who left their country that HAS SOCIALIZED MEDICINE?

    cee doesn't quite understand...

    We pay taxes on medical care as well. These taxes are called "insurance payments". Sadly, most of us are forced to take what we get offered by our companies. These companies make billions in profits and change the rules to optimize profits, not quality of care...

    Infant mortality and life expectancy have a lot to do with quality of health care, cee. The fact that we are behind most of Europe along with the only other industrialized country with socialized medicine is more than a coincidence...

    But, you keep condoning paying the crooks that got us into this situation in the first place, son...

    Once again....no data, no proof that shows a cause and effect of private payor system leads to high IMR....

    Could it be other reasons?....

    Rates of drug use?
    Rates of out-of-wedlock pregnancies?
    Average age of first pregnancy?
    Woman choosing not to have prenatal care....even though in most states it is easily obtained through Medicaid?

    Please blindrat....you always demand data and evidence....where is your evidence that a government run, single payor system in The United States of America will lower the IMR? Even data that shows a link between parivate payor and high IMR when all other things contributing to IMR are controlled?

    No?

    Then try again.

    Oh, and I do not see taxes and buying a product that I need as the same because my taxes are used to help others....And I do not think it is wise to allow people to use a system intended to help the economically disadvantaged.

    And blindrat....if you do not like what your company offers, better yourself and move on to a company that offers something you do like....it is your choice! Or, buy supplemental insurance to get something you like....but if you think you have no choice now (which in reality you do), wait until a socialized system is set up and no one has choice.

    cee,

    I did offer other industrialized nations to compare us to, son...

    You simply ignored it, child. You let loose with gibberish about single mothers and medicare as if other nations don't have single mothers or women who choose not to have medical care...

    To put the shoe on the other foot, son: What possible value is paying a fifth of your income to an insurance company just to make someone else richer?

    "Personal responsibility and reasonable use of resources in the richest nation on Earth as served us well for over 200 years"

    "Us" being exactly who, Phari-cee? Certainly not the rural black populations of Arkansas and Mississippi, among whom I have been working for most of this year. Certainly not the rural Appallachian populations of southeastern Ohio and West Virginia among whom I have spent a lot of time in my work. Certainly not the urban black and Appallachian populations living in isolated ghettos in just about every major city in the midwest.

    You are such a self-satisfied, self-entitled, willfully ignorant member of an imaginary "natural elite" that I just may throw up.

    "Inasmuch as you have done these things for the least among you, you have done them for me."

    Thusly Phari-cee has judged, partitioned, and set himself up as more deserving of the external benefits of our society than the figure that he claims to regard as his heavenly savior....and I don't mean George W Bush.

    Sorry, blindrat, I am not letting you off the hook...I asked for a cause/effect between single payor and the problems you mentioned. You obviously can only come up with the usual talking points comparing our country to other industrialized nations and have me assume that the way we pay for our medical care is the reason for the differences...You should not be satisfied with such incurious and unscientific behavior.

    The answer to your question is I feel it gives me the power to demand service from the company and if it does not respond, I have the ability to force change through the open market....My company has changed companies based on complaints of our employees and for the most part, there have been no problems with our plan now for the last three years. Try to complain to Medicare when something goes wrong and you will see how much that helps....a monopoly is never healthy and socialism is a monopoly....

    There are many insurance companies but only one US Government. Choice is key to keeping a society vibrant and innovative but once power is given to the government, it is rarely given back.

    So that is the value, blindrat.... Accountability and walking with my healthcare dollar when I am not satisfied and rewarding someone with it when they do a good job....something important and a great responsibility to men and women entrusted with protecting their family.

    "I truly believe only people WHO NEED the government's help should receive it....."

    Well then take off your Monopoly-game blinders and realize that medical science is where it is today because of "government help"; New drugs are universally developed with "government help"; the rules rigged in favor of insurance companies constitute "government help";....and society in general has paid for all of this "government help".

    Promoting good health throughout out population is not a fucking handout, you presumptuous egoist - it is a wise endeavor that an entire society does for its own good. I know that the juxtaposition between your giant house with the hovels on the other side of town, and between your easy access to quality health care and the poxy conditions suffered by the homeless in your area make you feel special and virtuous, but you are merely riding the hubris express to Damnation Station. Repent, Sinner!

    cee,

    You misunderstand, son...I'm not on a hook. You are.

    Look at the stupid things that you are saying to justify the current system: "...it gives me the power to demand service from the company and if it does not respond, I have the ability to force change through the open market..."

    Well, child...for most of us workin' folk, we either pay half of what our company provides as insurance or we pay all...a difference of about four hundred dollars. Most people don't have an extra four hundred dollars, son.

    And, to find out that your insurance company is crappy, you have to file a claim and find most of it rejected...mo' money, mo' money, MO' MONEY, son...

    Then, you complain that medicare is crappy. Wow! Even after Bush "fixed" it? Here's a tip, boy: It's crappy because they DON'T WANT YOU TO USE IT...

    Now, if you are a believer in social Darwinism, you can tell me why NO country that has had socialized medicine has ever switched back...

    Oh yes, Sir Loin of Milquetoast personally attacks me, once again ignorant of what I do, who I help and what I have done....I do not find any value in being immodest when I come and post on this board, unlike you, the great humanitarian, Loin!

    So again, a logical and measured debate on the risks and benefits of socialized, secular government controlled medicine will be thrown aside so silly, uninformed pot-shots can be taken at cee.

    Instead of addressing my points about your elite's poster family, The Frosts, you engage in character assasination, Loin.

    Instead of showing me how and why single payor government run medical delivery for all Americans would be the only solution to help those in rural and urban impoverished areas, you take refuge in arrogant judgement.

    You should be a much happier person for serving the truly needy, Loin, instead of the bitter and angry classist and religious bigot you present yourself as.

    But again, I doubt your claim of good works because of your demeanor...or I at least doubt your motives. Happiness comes from serving our brother and sisters in charity and love.....I have never seen one happy post from you loin, and that speaks volumes.

    Cee: "Once again....my posts are ignored as the leftists change the argument."

    That one sentence says SO much about the utter arrogance of this egotistical self-centered poster. Cee obviously thinks everything is about HIM!

    No Cee, I didn't "change" your argument...I didn't even read your argument. I was responding to something else entirely. I tire of reading your deluded and self centered arrogant blather sprinkled with out of context quotes, ... and therefore rarely bother any more.

    You personally disgust me with your selfish creeds invoking false Christianity and nationalism with personal taunts and endless stereotypical insults aimed at those who have the nerve to simply disagree.

    "There are many insurance companies but only one US Government. Choice is key to keeping a society vibrant and innovative but once power is given to the government, it is rarely given back."

    Happily, the US Constitution clearly declares that the Government is the property and responsibiity of every one of us. I would far prefer that the elected representatives of all of us invested parties should establish and regulate an effective and equitable system of maintaining the health of all Americans than to abdicate this weighty matter to the hands of profit-driven bean-counters in the insurance industry; of profit-driven pharmaceutical manufacturers; and lowly pill-salesmen like Phari-cee.

    blindrat, you are of the mind that socialized medicine would solve the problem....I disagree....

    What measures of health are you talking about with the US being at the bottom of the list?....Specifics would be nice....

    Life expectancy?
    Preventable early death?
    Infant mortality?

    What? And then I would like to see your evidence of the cause and effect relationship between a private system and the measures you site....Not just "shoulds" and "perhaps" but actual data that proves a private system in a country like ours is the reason for these measures being where they are....

    You opened up this conversation....show me the scientific data showing the link.....private pay = low measures of your choice.

    Posted by: cee at October 9, 2007 11:48 AM

    Still on the hook....

    Oh well, blindrat cannot show any proof of this link....Just change the subject and hope I don't notice.

    Poor blindrat....no wonder you sound dull and depressed like blindrat....you are stuck working for your benefits instead of using your brain to improve your situation....go out there and find yourself something better!.....I have faith in you!

    And blindrat....do not make me laugh.....

    "Well then take off your Monopoly-game blinders and realize that medical science is where it is today because of "government help"; New drugs are universally developed with "government help"; the rules rigged in favor of insurance companies constitute "government help";....and society in general has paid for all of this "government help"."


    ###
    Proof again would be nice, Loin....Private enterprise and personal glory is the driving engine to most advances in technology, including medical technology. This is the big lie about embryonic stem cell research. Advances will take place in the private sector with private funds and no government money even needs to be spent.

    Private institutions with private endowments and charitable funding also serve for many new advances and point of care.....Government control IS NOT a requirement nor has it ever been.

    Please Loin, leftist academia THAT DOES rely on government support likes to continue the great lie of a virtuous and kind government. You are simply another example of the incurious and inept far leftists who can't tie their shoes without feeling guilty.

    "Instead of addressing my points about your elite's poster family, The Frosts, you engage in character assasination, Loin."


    I don't even know who the "Frosts" are - I was commenting only on your remarkable level of self-satisfaction revealed in your posts. According to you, If only the desparate denizens of West Helena Arkansas exercised the same level of personal responsibility that you do, they would not live in a bombed-out jobless hell-hole. Od course, you will retort that they must uproot and relocate in order to participate; perhaps they could drive truck for Halliburton in Iraq? But the decisions that result in such region desolation are generally made by a very few influential individuals, and this is not at all democratic.

    You did not get your giant house, multiple cars, and "other assets" on your own, Phari-cee; nor did Jesus see fit to reward your piety with this wealth. You acquired then due largely to your position in society, which happens to be one that our system abets by masking or ignoring the help and input you have recieved in various ways from disadvantaged demographics.

    "That one sentence says SO much about the utter arrogance of this egotistical self-centered poster. Cee obviously thinks everything is about HIM!"


    ###
    Oh my, about me?....no Mike, I ask for evidence for what you claim....50 Million americans?.....who are they and do the include the 38 million illegal aliens currently in the country?.....and Mike dismisses me because my posts bother HIM?....It is obviously about how you feel, Mike, and you inability to stay focused and answer simple questions....the same with blindrat....I ask for evidence and I get none....Same with Loin, I ask for evidence and I get none....all three whiners claim I am something right of Dr. Joe Mengele and you call yourselves intellectuals?

    Please. Once again, I call attention to the tone of EVERY post you three have ever put on this sight....they are from VERY unhappy people....People who claim to love but never show it even when discussing some topic on a website!

    Like I said to Loin, much can be judged from how you all respond to when challenged...personal hatred, vitriol, absolutist judgements and avoiding presenting facts are just some of your deficiencies. Also, a lack of any sense of humor seems another sign that you all really do not have an ounce of humility in you.....

    Again, I strated this discussion with the democrats poster family, The Frosts....you all seem to want to forget this....we were talking about SCHIP....the great plan that the evil republicans are keeping away from children! Oh my....it seems hopeless to have a civil and thoughtful discussion with you guys.

    And Loin, you classist remark at 2:57 PM is easy to address....Read my posts in context of The Frosts and see that these upper-middle-class people receiving government aid is what I was comparing myself too....Not the poor who deserve anyone's help, even the federal governments.

    Once again, a bitter and humorless post Loin at 2:57....you are consistent.

    2:38.......Oh, boy. Coming from the biggest self-righteous prick on the internets?

    Cee: "It seems hopeless to have a civil and thoughtful discussion with you guys."

    Keep fooling yourself Cee, into believing YOU are the definition of "civil and thoughtful". You are anything but and every post you make reeks of personal selfishness along with a worldview built around you and your personal worldview built around you alone.

    You call yourself "civil" even as you taunt others who disagree with stereotypical pre-boxed images of something you call "leftists" which seems to define everything that is 'bad' in your little world.

    You almost completely ignor a ten point post of mine about healthcare while falsely labeling it as another "leftist response" to YOU, when in fact, it had nothing to do with YOU. In the process, you pick out one little question about illegal aliens and imply fact regarding the 50 million uninsured and then try to use THEM as a reason to dismiss my entire argument, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with illegal aliens. But THEN, you accuse me of ignoring your 'questions'....all the while labeling yourself as the only one being "civil and thoughtful"

    That said, If an argument can be won on a discussion board by sheer fillibuster, then you win hands down Cee.....Because I certainly don't have the time to attack every selfish right wing argument and stereotype you literally flood this board with, even though each and every one you present is built on it's own transparent house of cards.

    even though each and every one you present is built on it's own transparent house of cards.

    Posted by: Mike at October 9, 2007 3:36 PM


    Of which, you have not once been able to prove.

    "And Loin, you classist remark at 2:57 PM is easy to address....Read my posts in context of The Frosts and see that these upper-middle-class people receiving government aid is what I was comparing myself too....Not the poor who deserve anyone's help, even the federal governments."


    ""Poor kids first", right, Phari-cee? That's the talking point. You Bushies invent or emphasize imaginary or epiphenomenal anecdotes to inflame resentment regarding somebody getting something that you claim they have no right to, and on this basis delay (i.e. deny) it to everyone - except for those who can comfortably pay for it.

    ..Then they can give a pittance of charityand hold it up as proof of how wonderful they are, when actually they are only returning a drab of what their class has unjustly expropriated from all of society.


    "Once again, a bitter and humorless post Loin at 2:57....you are consistent."


    Woe unto Ye, scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites!

    I am not sure how many undocumented people are living in the US, dear poster....but I don't think anyone really knows....

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0516/p01s02-ussc.html

    The latest shock number of 38 million is from this article....

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/mason/5189638.html

    No irony that millions of people flee from a country with socialized medicine for all to a country that only has such a system for the truly needy?

    A simple question.....And another.....Why do The Frosts need 100% government funded healthcare for their children if their net worth is 500K?

    All easy questions....Will I get an answer?

    Fuck the Frosts. Our Government should be directed to provide the same state-of-the-art healthcare to everyone, then you wont feel so cheated and agitated by the Frosts.

    Once again, a bitter and humorless post Loin at 4:08....you are consistent.

    No Loin, remember the Pharicees prayed publicly and gave publicly for all to see, like your previous post about your work with America's down-trodden....I have never beat my chest regarding anything I have done because I have no right to use anything given in the name of love or charity for my own benefit....

    This is a discussion about Government aid....not altruism....Christ did not foment a revolution to have the Palestinian theocracy or occupying Romans insititute welfare... he asked His followers to obery Him.....and Him alone, in the regard of brotherly love and delivering His message of eternal redemption......

    The dying man in Christ's "Good Samaritan" parable was helped out by a loving individual, anonymously and by his free will, not by coersion (taxes).....The poor man was not given aid by the relgious leader or the secular leader that went to the other side of the road the man was beaten on.....You all forget that part of the story.

    Am I obeying Christ's commands?.....How could you verify if I claimed I did anyway, Loin?.....So stop quoting from a book you don't believe anyway from the words of a God you claim does not exist....It is poor form and really tasteless considering your previous jive.

    Once again, a bitter and humorless post Loin at 4:22....you are consistent.

    I am not feeling cheated, Loin....A family headed by a man who chooses to have his own business (Mike's canard), should think about the welfare of his wife and children. It is not right, when you can afford health insurance, to not purchace it....The Frosts acted irresponsibly, their children were in a tragic accident, and they now rely on government programs intended for the needy, not them, an upper-middle class family, to provide for their medical needs.

    My point is where is this man as a provider, as commanded by Christ, to love his wife and family as Christ loved the church? Christ died for the church No, sorry, a 500,000 remodeled home was more important than providing basic healthcare for his family? Owning the building his business is in is more important than providing responsibly for his family?

    I think people who have been given resources have to prioritize and provide correctly for their families and also serve their neighbors. These people show NO history of doing either and instead use a government program to enable them to continue their lifestyle. It is becoming the American way to rely on The US Government to get help and to give it.....Both are not what Christ taught.

    They are perfect dupes in your quest to rob the rest of us who do act like adults to placed under the mommy state.....

    Shall I wipe your fanny now, Sir Loin of Milqueotast? I know you need such basic help!

    Another academic exercise for Dr. Phallu-Cee....you have no ability to even understand the argument......

    "No irony that millions of people flee from a country with socialized medicine for all to a country that only has such a system for the truly needy?

    "A simple question.....And another.....Why do The Frosts need 100% government funded healthcare for their children if their net worth is 500K?"

    Well? Instead of launching into another unsupported attack (how many illegals are in the US....7-38 Million?), try answering the questions.

    cee, asked Slob the same question over a week ago. He said that I didn't know what I was talking (in regards to illegal numbers)about and ducked and ran.

    "Well? Instead of launching into another unsupported attack (how many illegals are in the US....7-38 Million), try answering the question."

    WHICH question, you Bible thumping hypocrite?

    Do you want to know how many of the nearly 50 million AMERICANS who are uninsured are "illegal aliens"?.....The answer is NONE OF THEM! By definition, illegal aliens are NOT Americans, and therefore are NOT among the almost 50 million uninsured AMERICANS!

    Then the other question, which is in no way related to the first question; "how many illegal alians are in the US?":.....No one knows for certain...but quit trying to make question 2 into an answer to question 1.

    Also, stop hiding behind the Frosts, who you are dishonestly using as ONE weak example as a way to pooh pooh away the entire problem. The fact is that very few Americans with a net worth of 500K seek or need public assistance for healthcare, and they are not the issue.

    Try addressing the widow I know who's husband needed a routine bypass but could neither afford it, or the insurance that might have paid for it. He died because he had too much pride to beg for charity or submit himself and his family to the public shame of admitting he needed help. This man worked hard all his life and deserved better.

    Try addressing no less than TWO former coworkers of mine, one who was fired as she lay in her hospital bed, the other while convelessing at home after routine surgery. These two were seen as insurance liabilities for the company, so they simply let them go.

    Try addressing a former friend of mine with heart problems who bypassed retirement and stayed on at a stressful job just to retain insurance, even though the very insurance he was working for ended up turning a new procedure down that may well have saved his life in his our of need. They called the procedure "experimental"! He died of a heart attack while waiting on an 'appeal'.

    Try addressing the MAJORITY of the Americans who were forced to file personal bankruptcy who did so because of medical issues, even though the MAJORITY of them were in fact insured when the medical crisis began.

    No, the current for profit private medical 'insurance' system is NOT the answer, and never will be. Not unless someone comes up with a foolproof way to regulate them into becoming an asset to the medical system, instead of the liability they are at present.

    Do you pay for your employees' insurance, Mike?

    "Do you pay for your employees' insurance, Mike?"

    Who said I had employees?

    You want to throw the baby out with the bath water, Mike. I see medical crisis everyday and people remain gainfully employed, or if they cannot, apply for social security disability or they were prudent enough to take out a private disability plan to bridge the time. If they do not, families help or yes, churches, mosques and synagogues....the communities help. This is America and this kind of brotherly love....hands on, is what is Biblical....not faceless government programs that give people like you the excuse to avoid really caring about people.

    Your stories are sad, and I only hope that those around these fine people did all they could to help instead of wringing their hands and blaming faceless and nameless companies. Pride is no excuse for doing what is prudent and good for you or your family. No one should ever be so prideful that they refuse to ask for help.

    Sorry Mike, government last.....family first, then community...this is the basic societal model and one that promotes freedom and liberty. I should try my hardest to solve my family's problems and provide their needs and only rely on the state in dire need and poverty. Maintaining a selfish, narcissitic lifestyle with all the trappings of 21st century materialistic America is not the goal of altruism....it is helping people from love and self sacrifice.

    Sorry this biblical idea rubs against your secular humanist mirage of utopia. Control over people is increasing, and not in way the left screams about. Cohersing them into a system based on state management and taxes is not the answer. Government run medical care for all, poor through rich, is not needed and an afront to liberty. Sorry your leftist ruling class picked the 500K net worth family to promote their program, but they did and it showed the depth of their argument. Pandering to people's economic fears is a lowest common denominator ploy and scared people will give away their liberty...this is the left in great action.

    WHICH question, you Bible thumping hypocrite?


    posted by mike

    The class just oozes from that post, doesn't it? Coming from the biggest hypocrite on OW, no less. Oh boy.

    "You want to throw the baby out with the bath water, Mike"


    Such irony, Phari-cee says this to Mike one post after dismissing the entire concept of single-payer socialized health-care because one family is smeared by Limbaugh as being irresponsible and hedonistic.

    "Shall I wipe your fanny now, Sir Loin of Milqueotast? I know you need such basic help!"


    To these self-congradulatory righties anyone advocating social justice must by implication be destitute and helpless. They themselves are comfortable, and they judge and dismiss anyone who is not (except for use as targets of conspicuous alms-giving), or who suggests that we as a democratic, self-governed society move to improve the lot of "the least among us". Is this your Christian charity, Phari-cee?


    Sir Loin of Milquetoast....

    Ignoring my point that state run, single payor medical care is not necessary to insure the needy receive quality care is just another example of that ideological tin-ear you possess.

    Even using Christ's teachings, one can see that personal charity and altruism is a valid and effective way to help those in need. I do not need socialized medicine. I do not know what the future holds for me and my family, but I try to be responsible and plan for crisis...including loss of income, and I hope my community would be there for me if I needed help. Relying on a cohersive system that takes away any personal responsibility to help the needy is actually damaging to the human soul and we have seen this through-out history, both in our own country and in Marxist ones.

    So keep characterizing me as a thoughtless and uncompassionate righty, Loin. It is not true but I know it only shows the lack of thought in your argument.

    Hope, hope, hope...

    You say you "hope", but you don't need to, Phari-cee. You are white, educated after a fashion, and wealthy. You don't really know the meaning of the word hope.

    Why demand that demographic groups disadvantaged by history and locality rely on the sporadic condescention of more fortunate classes, when we have the wealth and technology to make everyone's conditions predictable. Charity is great - giving of oneself for others, but there are externalities that wealthy Americans OWE to society but which are not levied. Charity does NOT fulfill this obligation.

    Render unto God that which is God's (charity) and unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's (taxes).

    "we have the wealth and technology to make everyone's conditions predictable."


    ###
    Yeah, ok....your hubris knows no bounds Loin, and once again, I point out the fact that none of your posts, including this one, contains the word, "liberty."

    Your last quote is funny....especially in the context of what Christ was answering with his famous line....The really valuable was to be given to Jehovah....your heart, obeidience, love.....the temporal/the coin with The Emperor's profile, was not of any value in reality and should be given back to who is on the coin......

    Free will, under God's kingdom, allows the person to choose right and wrong......right would manifest itself in the person's obedience to Christ...Wrong would be disobedience....In your secular world, cohersion to a world-view, even with humane intentions, the emperor takes that free will (or liberty) away....with disasterous results....

    Please look at the entire 20th century iun world history to see how cohersive huamn powers harden the hearts of men and lead to enslavement.

    Relying on the goodness of others, the noncohersive goodness, demands faith, Loin....I know you can't stand that but it is a fundamental truth. You want to make people be good......"predict" goodness.....wow, what a totalitarian concept!

    Who really is the fundamentalist moralist, Loin?....Think about it, please, for once.

    "Relying on the goodness of others, the noncohersive goodness, demands faith, Loin....I know you can't stand that but it is a fundamental truth. You want to make people be good......"predict" goodness.....wow, what a totalitarian concept!"


    Everything is between God and Phari-cee, society be damned. "Goodness" is a crap-shoot, something that happens if Phari-cee happens to sell more than his projected quarterly load of Viagra and Ambien.

    Don't you realize that desparate, impoverished people are also "coerced" from deciding one cold morning to take possession of your giant house? Perhaps if this were not the case one of them might allow you to keep a can of beans and a blanket...such goodness.

    Charity is great - giving of oneself for others, but there are externalities that wealthy Americans OWE to society but which are not levied. Charity does NOT fulfill this obligation.


    YOU want our government to handle health care? I find that laughable!

    ...and you want government to fight wars for oil companies. I find that obscene.

    Actually, Sharon, I want doctors, nurses, and pharmacists to handle health care without the greedy input from insurance salesmen. I want government to simply pay for it.

    All of the plans being talked about by everyone from Huckabee to Hillary are simply different versions of socialism for Insurance companies and big Pharma. Mercantilism at its most callous.

    ...and you want government to fight wars for oil companies. I find that obscene.
    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 10, 2007 10:44 AM

    See October 5 thread if you are actually interested in a response, which I don't believe.

    Actually, Sharon, I want doctors, nurses, and pharmacists to handle health care without the greedy input from insurance salesmen. I want government to simply pay for it.

    I asked a friend who I trust, an M.D. who also practices homeopathic medicine, about socialized medicine, he was in support of some form of it. He also believes in patient accountability. That is one of the issues I have with socialized medicine. Below is a summary that illustrates my concerns. http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:ueTKNv4HcUkJ:www.balancedpolitics.org/universal_health_care.htm+cost+socialized+health+care&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a

    1. There isn't a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care?
    2. "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.
    3. Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness.
    4. Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility.
    5. Patients aren't likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
    6. Just because Americans are uninsured doesn't mean they can't receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don't have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.
    7. Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care.
    8. Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc.
    9. A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.
    10. Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.
    11. Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a "right" by the public, meaning that it's politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control.


    1. There isn't a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care?

    - Postal service? Seems to work pretty well. The alternative is what we have - 30% of money spent on helath care in this country goes to admin, compared with something like 20% in Canada. That does not even account for profits taken


    2. "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.

    - No shit, sherlock. That's why righties coined the term "free health care" to discredit responsible socialized medicine. "Defense" sucks up over 50% of our budget and is a huge boongoggle - cut cut cut.

    3. Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness.

    - Free-market Fundamentalism. Not a scrap of evidence to back this up. Profit motive is why bean counters get to decide how much time you spend in the hospital, or if a particular drug is warranted. I've recently heard that some insurances no consider Mastectomies to be outpatient procedures - you knbow damn well that a doctor didn't come up with this onew - unless he was looking for a bone from an HMO.


    4. Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility.

    Why? There is no reason that any doctor, any hospital would treat any patient (given medical judgement providing triage)


    5. Patients aren't likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.

    - "Hey was that colonoscopy free? I'll be back next week!! More Chemo, please, and don;t be stingy!!" You've been watching that robot Stossell, haven't you? Why would licensing of doctors change with socialized medicine? it wouldn't - in fact they would have more control appropriate treatments rather than serving as hawkers for trendy pills and gophers for HMOs.


    6. Just because Americans are uninsured doesn't mean they can't receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don't have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.

    - and we pay through taxes, or paying patients pay through higher prices. Emergency room visits for sinus infections is what we see now, and that is the hieght of innefficiency


    7. Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care.


    - I don't know where you are getting this, but it does not sound like anything that could not be worked out. I am not convinced that it is true, ether.

    8. Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc.

    True. The fat smokers would be paying as well, though. This does not bother me, as preventative medicine would also become more common, reducing these and other maladies. This is related to the Emerncy room point above - its cheaper to head things off at the front end.


    9. A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.

    - Sure. Big deal. Isn't Bush all about everybody getting retrained fro new careers anyway, since his pals have shipped all of their jobs to India?


    10. Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.

    - See Adam Smith - if there is a demand not being filled, immediate entry into the industry will occur to meet the demand. Maybe greedy fuckers like phari-cee would do something else, but good riddance.

    11. Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a "right" by the public, meaning that it's politically near impossible to remove or curtail.

    -Good.

    1. There isn't a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care?

    Bad logic! They handle our military and they handle our military's medical care.


    2. "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.

    We already pay more per capita than most nations with socialized medicine. A rise in taxes would be simultaineous with no insurance payments...

    3. Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness.

    Profit motives are what led to ungodly medical bills. I see no evidence of greater effectiveness either.

    4. Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility.

    Why? The same doctors will be there...or will they go to a non-socialized medicine country? It certainly wouldn't be an industrialized nation...

    5. Patients aren't likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.

    That is pretty facetious...

    6. Just because Americans are uninsured doesn't mean they can't receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don't have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.

    Having a sister who had to rely on such care I would have to state that it was nearly impossible for her to receive care, except on an emergency basis...

    7. Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care.

    Why? There are already insurance company mandates under the current system.

    8. Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc.

    They already do if they own insurance...

    9. A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.

    They can always work for Satan. Seriously, no one cried about the rust belt or textile belt. I find it difficult to shed a tear for such ripoff artists...

    10. Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.

    They already have to receive reduced pay from insurance companies. Look at your invoice some time...

    11. Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a "right" by the public, meaning that it's politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control.

    Living in a society is a two-way street...

    Wasn't that easy, blindrat?

    aye...

    I hate to inform you guys, but the biggest eye over my shoulder in managing patients is Medicare....My hospitalized patients are pushed out more often by Medicare worries than the commercial plans.

    Getting tests approved that are expensive by the commerical plan sis actually only an annoyance, and I have been successful near 100% of the time in getting needed tests scheduled despite cost worries.

    The biggest complaints on reimbursement is from Medicare because they are the ones who set the prices and the commercial plans follow suit. The government run program is by far the most powerful already, and to allow this plan to cover all citizens will only make the situation worse.

    But again, I see this more as an ideological fight....liberty over control by the state......The point by point opinions you gave are only those, opinions, and the idea that a country like ours that is so commercialized and run by consumerism will have a "good" socialized medical care system is not guaranteed or supported by any facts.

    Nor as anyone on this board yet porved to me the link between how medical care is paid for and it's quality. That is the big 800 lb gorilla the left never wants to discuss.

    As far as I can tell I am the only poster here who has actually been in the situation of no insurance, no more assets and a serious fatal illness or two.

    As I said on another thread I spent 3 1/2 months in Little Charity with care approaching $300,00 compliments of the taxpayers.

    It took twelve years, with one period of 5 years with insurance, for us to go through all our assets and when they ran out the safety net was there and caught me.

    Both of us were and I still am vehemently opposed to a socialized, single payer medical system in this country. If any of you had ever dealt with government organized and operated medical care you would be running away from it as hard as I do and not wanting the entire country to share your misery.

    The best way to describe it is arcane inefficiency run by mad bureaucrats. The doctors frequently have problems negotiating all the rules and protocols. The employees are protected by civil service and it shows in many cases.

    Grammie

    cee,

    I already offered the best proof that CAN be offered. You offered anecdotal evidence. If you work in the medical field, son, you aren't very well educated...

    We can use Medicare as a template just as easily as we can use a crappy insurance company as a template for the situation as it stands, son. See the logical fallacy?

    Socialized medicine works so good in Canada that Canadian Dr's are sending their pregnant patients to the US to have their kids! Major surgeries? They send them here!

    Really, rk?

    How many, son? As many Americans that went to Canada to get flu shots last year?

    Got numbers, child?

    "I already offered the best proof that CAN be offered."


    ###
    Where is that proof, blindrat.....you never showed any proof that commercially paid healthcare is the reason for bad care....not one shred of evidence....

    Why?

    Because none exists....Only tired leftist talking points that assumes a connection but never controls for other variables that contribute to measures of a "healthy" medical care delivery system.

    You seem to have a problem with the fact that Medicare....the example of how our government would run a system....is just as poorly run and focused on COST as any for-profit private entity.....Talk to any healthcare provider and they will have the same complaints about dealing with Medicare than with the commercial plans....AND, on top of that, why don't you look at the measures of care for people who receive Medicare vs. private insurance....I will tell you already....there is no difference.

    This is why it is ideological and I stand with Grammie who actually went through the tribulations.

    BTW, what do you do for a living, blindrat?

    cee,

    Now you pretend to forget that I stated, according to the WHO, we and South Africa stand at the back of industrialized nations in infant mortality and life expectancy, son; moreover, I asked you why, if our system was better, did no country ever switch back to insurance-based from socialized...

    I am a programmer/analyst in Naval communications, child...

    What do you do, specifically?

    I am a programmer/analyst in Naval communications, child...

    What do you do, specifically?

    Posted by: blindrat at October 10, 2007 1:05 PM


    That's a scary thought. Someone who is clearly on the side of the enemy connected with Naval comms. Scary, indeed.

    Spoken like a true chickenhawk, son...

    That last post does not show any connection to how the medical care is paid for and poor care.....just two variables that you have not controlled for, blindrat.

    For a programmer, you are not being very logical....The WHO report cannot lead one to the conclusion that how the medical care is paid for is the only reason why IMR and life expectancy are lower. Please try being more logical.

    And the answer to your second point was touched upon by Sharon.....

    "Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a "right" by the public, meaning that it's politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control. "

    And to that, the radical leftist, Sir Loin of Milquetoast said.....GREAT!

    Easy sociology, blindrat, and the left knows it.....take away liberty and the state grows in power never to give it back....Those countries that have made the transition to socialized medicine forever destroyed the incentive to change back....it is human nature.

    And their taxes are huge, their options less and in comparison, our medical advances have far outpaced them.....In addition, people from all over the world come to The United States to train to become doctors.....why?....because we have the most advanced procedures and techniques.....why?.....well I believe it is because we have not abandoned human ingenuity to the lazy and sluggish system of socialism.

    So sorry, blindrat....your proof is not proof....it is simply talking points and uncontrolled variables that show no cause/effect relationship.

    I am a family doctor.

    Wasn't that easy, blindrat?
    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 10, 2007 11:51 AM

    aye...
    Posted by: blindrat at October 10, 2007 11:53 AM

    There! It is all settled. Blindrat and SLOB, the sages, have spokeneth!

    >>I am a family doctor.

    Then, God help us all!

    Wasn't that easy, blindrat?
    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 10, 2007 11:51 AM

    aye...
    Posted by: blindrat at October 10, 2007 11:53 AM

    There! It is all settled. Blindrat and SLOB, the sages, have spokeneth!

    Posted by: Sharon at October 10, 2007 1:37 PM


    And the point of this post was what, exactly, Sharon?

    Cee, I have been on Medicare now for four years.

    I jokingly tell people that I am a "Professional Patient". That gives the idea of the medical care I require and have gotten.

    It has been my experience that Medicare A, B and C plus supplemental policy works about as well as the best private insurance.

    Medicare works differently than the Charity System I benefited from, which is a totally run government health care system such as Canada's. Actually, from what I have read about availability of care in Canada and long waits, it functioned much better in that regard.

    My husband and I were in the midst of our financial and medical problems when Hillary was working on her Health Care debacle. Friends and family were sometimes surprised that we both wrote letters and actively opposed her.

    Our view was that because we were in a miserable bind it would not be alleviated by the rest of the country being plunged into the same or similar misery.

    Grammie

    There! It is all settled. Blindrat and SLOB, the sages, have spokeneth!

    Posted by: Sharon at October 10, 2007 1:37 PM


    Yes, we have spoken, Sharon. We both produced answers to your list of issues that - when not devastating your points outright - at least put the ball back in your court to do some real thinking.

    Yes, we have spoken, Sharon. We both produced answers to your list of issues that - when not devastating your points outright - at least put the ball back in your court to do some real thinking.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at October 10, 2007 3:19 PM

    I hope you're not holding your breath, SLoB...

    You 2 spolbyloons must be seeing something that we are not or just factually wrong. I suspect the latter.

    SLOB and Mr. Anon,

    The list was a short statement of concerns, not a complete detailed argument, merely a starting point. If that much isn't obvious, then it is clear once again that you have no desire to actually hear an opposing point of view. What a way to win people over.

    Grammie,

    In view of my other comments about this site, you can see I have relapsed : ) I plan to come on later tonight, if you are around. I wanted to respond to your personal situation.

    I look forward to it, Sharon. I'll keep an eye out for you.

    If all the posters here emulated you in a "relapse" this site would be G rated.

    Hope springs eternal.

    Grammie

    Jeff: "Thats a scary thought. Someone who is clearly on the side of the enemy connected with Naval Comms. Scary indeed"

    What is really "scary" is that we actually have Americans such as Jeff (Royalking) who cannot see the difference between honest disagreement about what is best for America and being "on the side of the enemy."

    What is equally as "scary", is that Jeff actually has defenders (and they know who they are) on this blog who occasionally applaud Jeff's ongoing anti-American attitude that villifies anyone and everyone for simply having a different point of view.

    'The list was a short statement of concerns, not a complete detailed argument, merely a starting point. If that much isn't obvious, then it is clear once again that you have no desire to actually hear an opposing point of view. What a way to win people over."


    What's your problem, Sharon?

    You posted your "short list", blindrat and I posted two complete sets of effective, and generally polite rebuttals, and then conferred shortly about how fast and easy it was, in our minds, to shoot your reactionary Free-market Fundamentalism full of holes. Your petulent reactions devoid of any content but whining suggests that this is your perspective on our exchange as well.

    Instead of whining about not having expressed your positon very well - or having a foolish position to start with - you could try posting the balance of this mighty argument that you claim to have in reserve.

    Or you could simply give our responses to your bullet points their due consideration.

    What is equally as "scary", is that Jeff actually has defenders (and they know who they are) on this blog who occasionally applaud Jeff's ongoing anti-American attitude that villifies anyone and everyone for simply having a different point of view.

    Posted by: Mike at October 10, 2007 6:33 PM


    mike, in case you didn't know, blindbat wants us to lose the war. If that's not taking the side of the enemy then I don't know what is. Figures you would defend him, you want us to lose, too! Who's anti-American? I want to win, nothing less.

    please define "win", rk.

    Jeff:

    "mike, in case you didn't know, blindbat wants us to lose the war."....Since you haven't figured it out yet, Blindbat understands that there is NO such thing as either 'winning' or 'losing' this occupation. He does understand that the longer we stay there, the more America loses and there is nothing unpatriotic about that.

    "If thats not taking the side of the enemy, I don't know what is."....I know! You "know" very little about anything, and it shows with every one of your posts.
    "Figures you would defend him."....I'll "defend" anyone's right to express their true feelings about what is best for America without being labeled a traitor by those who disagree.

    "Who is anti-American?"....YOU are!

    "I want to win. Nothing less"....You don't even know what "win" means!


    "

    mike on blindbat:


    "He does understand that the longer we stay there, the more America loses and there is nothing unpatriotic about that."

    >>>Any proof, mike?


    "I'll "defend" anyone's right to express their true feelings about what is best for America"

    posted by mike

    This is a laugh and a half! And, an outright lie.

    I provided a link to the list because it was not my words; I thought it was a decent summary. The link provides a full discussion, pros and cons. I was trying to avoid extensive cut and paste material. I was curious about the idea of socialized medicine. In my gut, I am opposed to it, but I am not closed minded to it. As I mentioned, I have a friend (M.D.) who is in favor of some form of it. I don't care to discuss it with you, though. Discussion goes nowhere. One needs to fit your qualifications.

    I don't care to discuss it with you, though. Discussion goes nowhere. One needs to fit your qualifications.

    Posted by: Sharon at October 10, 2007 8:54 PM


    Well, you "cared" to post it in the first place. Our responses were civil, if perhaps a little impatient with your blind acceptance of spoonfed crap. You ran home pouting when your "thinking" was shown as insubstantial, vapid, corporate propaganda.

    Grammie,

    A majority of Americans are healthy and do not even use medical care through the majority of their lives, the potential or risk of a catastrophic illness or injury requires some sort of policy, but comprehensive programs for Americans run by a single payor is not the answer.

    As people age, of course, their use of the medical care system increases so a mix of goverment supported and private insurance is logical for the elderly....but as we have seen with estimates of the cost of Medicare since its creation in thr 1960's, the costs are quite a bit higher than predicted....

    extrapolate that for a complete system ages 0-whenever for a population of our size and it is only logical to see that no current socialized system even comes close to what an American system would look like.

    And again, take my view that utilization of the service is so low when people are young, and it makes even less sense to provide such services for every man, woman and child without their choice.

    Loin and blindrat are simplistic in their remedy and application of smaller country's systems to our country is filled with assumptions and false predictions.

    Thanks for providing us a clear understanding of this.

    Posted by: at October 11, 2007 8:51 AM


    hmmm..... so private insurance via managed care pays out at Cadillac rates while Medicare and Medicaid are Yugos?

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