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    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    January 12, 2008
    John Gibson Calls Out Keith Olbermann for Lying, Yet Again


    Posted by johnny dollar | Permalink | Comments (103) | | View blog reactions

    103 Comments

    Look, both Keith and Garrett made the same mistake in the past week or so: not contacting the subject of a breaking news story DIRECTLY before going on air with it: Keith didn't contact Gravel or his closest aides directly when he said (wrongly) that he dropped out of the presidential race, and Garrett never contacted Begala directly before reporting two lies: that he was part of conference call with the Clinton campaign and that he was rejoining it. Both journalists were stubborn and said they had strong sources, but at least Keith apologized on air.

    Garrett simply said in that clip you have on YouTube that just because you deny something doesn't mean it isn't true. So he's saying he still thinks Begala will rejoin the Clinton campaign doesn't he? For that, he's the worse of the two journalists. Let it go, Garrett, you are wrong!

    > at least Keith apologized on air.

    After blaming someone else? Some apology. I'll take your point when Keith apologizes to Major Garrett for lying about him.

    and Garrett never contacted Begala directly before reporting two lies
    Posted by: steve at January 12, 2008 1:12 PM

    What lies did Garrett report? Garrett reported a rumor that Bubba Clinton was pushing Hitlery to hire The Forehead and Gollum. Just because the Forehead denies it does not make it a lie on Garrett's part. After her win in NH, Hitlery proably told Bubba's camp that she doesn't need Forehead yet. Gollum is helping Hitlery. He has admitted it.

    excerpt from Hockenberry's response to the orginal dust up over his NBC article. this is also a link to the original article. Worth a read. O'Reilly isn't all that off on this one.

    Divorced from Reality
    NBC's reality is something I'm proud to be out of touch with.
    Saturday, January 12, 2008
    By John Hockenberry

    I received many requests to go on the air and talk about the essay but in the end refused them all, including the one from The O'Reilly Factor. The Fox producer explained that the show wanted to focus on GE inserting itself into editorial decisions at NBC and also suggested that Bill O'Reilly personally has an interest in keeping a watchful eye on the competition at MSNBC. "You mean Olbermann?" I asked the producer, referring to how Keith Olbermann, whose show competes with O'Reilly, has made much sport of calling the Fox anchor "the worst human being on earth," a very NBC/GE-esque experiment in branding. "Well partly," he said. "The way MSNBC has acted makes the whole profession look bad." I agreed but perhaps for a different reason.

    Corporate media such as NBC/GE seek a single truth: the reality of Audience (or: the supremacy of ratings). If lefty performances such as those delivered by Keith Olbermann deliver eyeballs, fine (Don Imus's offenses were fine on MSNBC until they offended sponsors). If faux-conservative screaming about politics from pundits like Chris Matthews and Joe Scarborough demonstrate traction, they can dutifully remain part of the revenue engine of GE. Even the bizarre corporate rituals of GE have been mined by NBC for the successful comedy 30 Rock. Any thought that journalism might embody the values of factual truth, a moral right, or civic accountability is merely arcane unless such virtues can also prove themselves by delivering revenue.

    http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/guest/22004/

    As Major Garrett (or any real reporter) said, just because someone denies "X" doesn't mean "X" isn't true.

    Garrett had sources that told him that Begala was joining the campaign. Begala said he wasn't joining the campaign.

    Garrett reported both of these allegations or statements. Viz., that sources told him Begala was joining the team and that Begala denied it.

    That's called journalism.

    If you were in Garrett's position, wouldn't YOU have reported this?

    Now it's possible that Garrett got burned by the sources. Or that the sources (i.e., not Begala) were wrong.

    But he reported both sides.

    The next time Olbermann does that - practice balanced and fair reporting - will be the first.

    Laura makes the point when she's interviewing Garrett that Keith misses, because Keith isn't a journalist. That is, just because someone denies something you don't pro forma believe them. Especially the Clinton Crew. They're well documented liars.

    They call him Keith "Major Fuckup"
    NBC knows him as a suck-up
    It's the same old song
    Krazy Keith's always wrong
    Journalistically he's a muck-up

    Johnny, point taken that Keith blamed someone else for his mistake. But he did apologize on air. Garrett, on the other hand, did not apologize for his mistake.

    Major Garrett has a long-standing cordial relationship with Begala, so once he found out second-hand that Begala might be rejoining the Clinton camp, he could have and should have emailed or called Begala himself to confirm or deny. THAT's what a real journalist does. You don't report big rumors or rather, campaign developments (to use a more professional term) until you've at least attempted to contact the subject at hand and you've got more than one strong anonymous source. Running a rumor based on one source is what fake journalists do. And that's apparently what Major Garrett did initially last Monday.

    In later reports, he finally said that Paul Begala denied the rumor, but that's not how you end the story: you're supposed to call the Clinton campaign heads (Howard Wolfson, maybe?) to ultimately confirm or deny that they have new advisors (paid or unpaid) or not. THAT's how political journalistm is supposed to be done; that's how Garrett should've found out if his source was full of crap or not.

    And BTW, Fox News did get it right that Carville is now an unpaid advisor to Hillary's campaign, but personally, I think it's a bad move on her part. He and Mary Matalin and all these old political farts need to just go away. I would rather have Begala for an advisor than Carville these days (if you had to pick between the two), though I don't really think their input is going to matter much. Hillary's apparently "found her voice" so why would she need to listen to anybody else now? (rhetorical question)

    From the Kucinich website. Seems Keith's corporate master's have kicked Kucinich out of the debates. It will be interesting how Keith handles this, considering he thanked Kucinich in his book. Also Keith is the only show on MSNBC reporting on Kucinich demanding a recount. Good luck with that "corporate waltz" Keith:

    NBC and MSNBC have made a corporate decision to exclude the one and only voice who represents you and those things that the Democratic Party should stand for. If you are as outraged as we are, feel free to call: NBC/MSNBC at 212 664-4444 and ask for the Comment Line ore mail NBC/MSNBC at letters@msnbc.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it

    PLEASE share this message with everyone you know so that the voice of the people will be heard and their votes WILL be counted.

    Strength through Peace,
    The Kucinich Campaign

    Here's the full story on Kucinich:
    NBC un-plugs Kucinich from Presidential debate

    Re-writes criteria to exclude candidate with ’dissenting’ positions

    Less than 44 hours after NBC sent a congratulatory note and an invitation to Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich to participate in the Jan. 15 Democratic Presidential debate in Las Vegas, the network notified the campaign this morning it was changing it announced criteria, rescinding its invitation, and excluding Kucinich from the debate.

    http://www.dennis4president.com/go/homepage-items/nbc-un%11plugs-kucinich-from-presidential-debate/

    Here's Begala in his own words: "After I told Fox it wasn't true -- and this is the surreal part -- they kept reporting it anyway. In fact, Fox's Garrett told me he'd "take it under advisement." Take it under advisement? I realize I'm generally seen as just another liberal with an opinion, but this was not a matter of opinion, it was a matter of fact. Fox now knew their story was flatly, factually wrong, and they took it "under advisement."

    Apparently that meant repeating the falsehood with added detail: the "fact" that I had been on a conference call the previous day with the Hillary high command. Again, false. My worry is that if this is what one of Fox's best and most respected reporters is doing, what are the hacks up to?

    I exchanged several civil emails with Garrett -- and append them to this post. They are not nuanced. Read them for yourself. I report, you decide."

    This is what I mean when I said Garrett lied about Begala twice (or at least his source lied to him and made him look bad).

    Begala and Garrett email exchanges are here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/fox-news-we-report-e_b_80698.html

    And no, Johnny, unless you can prove that the YouTube clip you have here of Major Garrett talking about Begala's denials made the air before Keith got on the air to criticize his reporting on this, you can't say Keith lied about Garrett and needs to apologize to him.

    And yes, Olbermann, as much as you juvenile partisans hate to admit it (and apparently Garrett now too) IS a real journalist. He makes mistakes like everybody else in the business, but they aren't as sinister as you'd like to believe.

    Keep in mind, this is a guy who won an Emmy for his reporting of 9/11 and is talented enough to cover politics, sports and pop culture. John Gibson? Not a journalist. Just another right-wing nutjob.

    Call FCC & FEC explain incred misuse ofpublic owned airwaves

    Don't get why Kucinich people are not telling people to call the Federal Communications Commission 888 225 5322 and the Federal Elections Commission 202 649 1000? It is the two commissions malfeasance that emboldens the media conglomerates to criminally misuse the public owned frequencies they lease every eight years. It is no exaggeration to see this as a example of fascism, wherein conglomerate corporations control media, commissions appointed to oversee media complaisance with laws protecting the public, and control the majority of congressmen elected who approve the appointment of the members of the FCC and FEC. Fascism is not just people getting beat up in the street - that comes later. Dennis is the only candidate against all the wars of occupation and corporate governance at home. Sure, call NBC, but also call the FCC and FEC. FCC fax is 866 418 0232

    by jayjanson (39 articles, 0 quicklinks, 33 comments) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 at 3:46:48 PM

    > unless you can prove that the YouTube clip you have here of Major Garrett talking about Begala's denials made the air before Keith got on the air to criticize his reporting on this you can't say Keith lied about Garrett

    Um, "steve", Gibson played the clips WE posted. We had clips up on youtube and this site just 30 minutes after Olbermann lied about Major Garrett. Get that? THIRTY MINUTES. Olbermann told his lie Wednesday night. The clips of Major Garrett reporting the denails were from Tuesday. A whole day earlier. Get that? The scroll under the clips clearly reads polls close at 8:00 pm TONIGHT. Get that? Tuesday, election day. That is actually more than 24 hours before Olbermann lied and said the denials were never reported:

    http://www.olbermannwatch.com/archives/2008/01/caught_on_tape.php

    If you try to defend Oralmann when we exposed his lie just THIRTY MINUTES AFTER HIS SHOW ENDED with video clips from THE DAY BEFORE that prove he lied... then, "steve", you're a desperate Olbypologist, and not a very bright one.

    Olbermann doesn't have an Emmy for 9/11 reporting. He has an Edward R. Murrow award. While that is prestigious, it is not a rarity. My local news guys just received one too.

    Johnny wasn't names sexiest male newscaster? He was robbed!

    Actually I watched KO recruit voters nightly to go to the Playgirl site. I also watched as the Playgirl editor was interviewed by Olbermann and she seemed uncomfortable with the whole thing - she understood he had heavily promoted the contest. Meanwhile Anderson Cooper was out of the country reporting from the field and nevermentioned it till after the fact when he made fun of the vote and his "loss."

    "NBC un-plugs Kucinich from Presidential debate"

    Uh oh . . . Kucinich supporters on DU and Daily Kos are going to be so pissed. How will Olbermann handle their anger. He'll probably blame it on the network and say he begged them to include DK but they were unrelenting. Of course that would mean he doesn't "run MSNBC" afterall.


    And yes, Olbermann, as much as you juvenile partisans hate to admit it (and apparently Garrett now too) IS a real journalist. He makes mistakes like everybody else in the business, but they aren't as sinister as you'd like to believe.

    Keep in mind, this is a guy who won an Emmy for his reporting of 9/11 and is talented enough to cover politics, sports and pop culture. John Gibson? Not a journalist. Just another right-wing nutjob.

    Posted by: Steve at January 12, 2008 6:20 PM


    ROFLMAO! A journalist!!!!!!!!!! Thanks, 'steve' I needed a real good laugh!!!

    Posted by: at January 12, 2008 7:07 PM


    Ripped from 'wikipedia!' LOL! Still!

    >These goons are so insulated and full of hate that they can't even see KO as the successful newscaster he definitely is.

    Keep on believing, honey.

    Olbermann is a supporter of Iran.
    He has no credibility!

    Where do you get biographies, moron.
    Is the information accurate?
    You just get more stupid every single day.

    Posted by: at January 12, 2008 8:01 PM


    Ok, olbyloon. Where did the orange faced hack get his degree in journalism, since you claimed he was a journalist? Get to googling.......good luck!

    At what point does John Gibson's harping on Olby become an obsession, similar to Olby's with BillO?

    Does it ever?

    Steve, you did an ok job of defending the indefensible Garrett, but if you're saying he originally reported Begala's denials that he joined Hillary's campaign, you're wrong and you're lying.

    http://bourbonroom.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/01/08/back-to-the-future/#more-43

    It took him several news cycles last Tuesday (and several email exchanges with Begala) to finally report Begala's denials. And as I explained, that isn't going far enough: he should have gotten a complete refutation from the head of Clinton's campaign, a direct response from Begala and other potentially "new" advisors, and been done with it.

    What Keith did (which is laziness on his part, no doubt about it) is he read the HuffingtonPost article Begala wrote early on January 9th and never watched or had his staff watch out for further updates on the story from Garrett or Fox News in general. That was his mistake. But to say Keith "Lied" is barely accurate, considering how long it took Garrett to at least get a response from Begala. It was Garrett and his source(s) who told the bigger lies (no conference call, no joining Hillary in any shape or form). Face it.

    Steve,
    Keith defended Iran. Do you support that!

    > It took him several news cycles last Tuesday (and several email exchanges with Begala) to finally report Begala's denials.

    "Steve", are you sure you're name isn't really Olbermann? Because now you're lying about Major Garrett. He reported on Begala's denials throughout the day on Tuesday. Did you note in the clips we posted that he was reporting the denials as early as 2:05 pm on Tuesday? How do you describe that as several news cycles having passed? That was just an HOUR after he first reported the story! He even reported on his email exchanges with Begala! Now based on WHAT do you claim he didn't do until after "several news cycles"? Please cite your source.

    And after you do so, keep in mind that whatever your answer, Keith Olbermann still lied. And don't tell me he just made a mistake, because he could have corrected that mistake. But even knowing it was false, he let the falsehood stand. And when you do that, it's a deliberate lie.

    But even knowing it was false, he let the falsehood stand. And when you do that, it's a deliberate lie.

    Posted by: johnny dollar at January 12, 2008 9:11 PM


    Now, why would 'steve' have a problem with that? He already claimed Olbermahn was a 'journalist' and he can't tell us where he got his degree in journalism.

    Johnny, do you know how to read links? That BOURBON link I put in earlier was dated 12:56pm Eastern! I doubt that was his first report on Begala on Tuesday, but when I saw him report on both Carville and Begala rejoining the campaign live on TV that day, there was no rebuttal or statement from either of them in Garrett's report or in any other reporter's story on FNC. That's how I remember it. Only his later reports in the afternoon was there mention of Begala's denials (Carville told CNN I think that Tuesday or Wednesday night that he's a non-paid consultant).

    And like I said, Garrett and Fox News failed to reach Begala for comment throughout Tuesday. From the HuffingtonPost article I linked earlier: "I’ve been dealing with the media and politics for 25 years, but I’ve never had a more surrealistic day than January 8. Several times that day Fox News reported that I was joining Sen. Hillary Clinton’s campaign. It was a big story - at least until the stunning election returns.

    The only problem was, it wasn’t true.

    Fox News never even tried to contact me to verify their story, and when I contacted Fox, I felt like a character in a Kafka novel — or at least Curb Your Enthusiasm"

    Now I don't care for HP, but you just heard it straight from Begala. Deny his version of events at your peril. I'm done here.

    > I doubt that was his first report on Begala on Tuesday

    So your documentation is "I doubt"??? Do you KNOW when the story first broke? I didn't think so.

    > The only problem was, it wasn�t true.

    Actually, you have no idea if it's true or not. You only know that Begala SAID it wasn't true. By your logic, since Sandy Berger put out a denial that he stole anything and a denial that he lied, that should have ended the case! Oh he issued a denial so that means the charges are wrong! That truly IS OlbyPlanet "journalism".

    > Garrett and Fox News failed to reach Begala for comment throughout Tuesday.

    WTF? They were emaiing each other back and forth on Tuesday. He was reporting ON THE AIR Tuesday that they were emailing each other back and forth!

    > you just heard it straight from Begala.

    Now, did his book come after Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and before John, or was it just after Matthew?

    Man, what Olbypologists will do to excuse the lies of the infamous, deplorable one.

    A N O N Y M O U S,

    No, Major Garrett will never be a saint, although he appears to be more than a satisfactory journalist.

    But you, my friend, have been a very bad boy. At the rate you are going, you are going to be in a lot of trouble some day.

    Don't say you haven't been warned.

    Ripped from the puffington hates America site. No wonder recruitments are down. Getting prosecuted for doing their job, nice. You can stop dancing anytime, now, loser. How's mad man murthas trial coming? Can't find anything on that at the huffer, can you?

    Not in Iraq! Not in Afghanistan!

    Stupid fucks like you don't understand the damage Moron in Chief has done.

    patsy, you are the one wandering aimlessly and the one who doesn't understand. Get back to your cartoons and drugs.

    Anti-war Soros funded Iraq study

    Brendan Montague

    A STUDY that claimed 650,000 people were killed as a result of the invasion of Iraq was partly funded by the antiwar billionaire George Soros.

    Soros, 77, provided almost half the £50,000 cost of the research, which appeared in The Lancet, the medical journal. Its claim was 10 times higher than consensus estimates of the number of war dead!

    The loons lapped up every word of it, who's retarded?

    Let's see here....650,000.....150,000......650,000......150,000.......See the diff? Of course, you don't, hack.

    Keith Olbermann is a supporter of Iran, he worst than a journalist. He's a 5th columnist!

    Somewhere in between? Source, please.

    It's called war. While you're defending Sorass, how many of the "somewhere in between' were active terrorists and potential suicide bombers? How do you sleep at night knowing full well you want to lose the war?

    Olbermann defrended Iran. Doesn't that bother you Leftists?

    Nothing bothers the lefties. As long as he Bush bashes, he's golden to them and can do no wrong.

    Supporting a terror state is ok to The Leftists. Yet we can't question their patriotism. Olbermann is a traitor and I will call him out on it!

    Politics is not the only area where KO lacks knowledge. He wrote off the Chargers season in week 4 and blamed the team brass. Hey Keith, the Chargers are in the AFC Championship Game! If A.J. Smith and Dean Spanos have even heard of this buffoon, they must be laughing hysterically right about now.

    http://video.nbcsports.com/player/?id=162057

    Aside from attacking the Chargers and Norv Turner, Keith also did that diatribe about Tom Coughlin being the "Worst Person in the NFL" during halftime of Week 1, and screwed up by attributing an incident involving former Giants' coach Jim Fassel to Coughlin. And of course, he also went after Bill Bellichick for "Tapegate".

    Obviously, if you get attacked by Keith, it's like an automatic ticket into the conference championship game. Looking back, it's so obvious now that Keith's sports predictions are as good as his political ones, you have to wonder why the NFL even bothered to play the rest of the season, once Olby finished with his denoucements of Coughlin, Bellichick and Norv Turner. All that's left is to figure out where and when Olby blasted Green Bay Packers coach Mike McCarthy (surely sometime in the preseason when the Pack didn't go out and sign Randy Moss or something like that), and the entire NFL Final Four will be complete.

    "But in private conversations with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert last week, the president all but disowned the document, said a senior administration official who accompanied Bush on his six-nation trip to the Mideast. “He told the Israelis that he can’t control what the intelligence community says, but that [the NIE’s] conclusions don’t reflect his own views” about Iran’s nuclear-weapons program, said the official, who would discuss intelligence matters only on the condition of anonymity."

    The NIE doesn't reflect Bush's "own views" - meaning, of course, the initiatives force-fed him by Cheney and his VPs cabinet of pasty neocon war-profiteers. This statement, the trumped-up Hormuz incident, and the administration's long-standing attitude toward Iran, all mean another wasteful, useless, fabricated war is in the works.

    God damn all of you fascist Christianist war-mongering chickenhawks.

    Let's see here....650,000.....150,000......650,000......150,000.......See the diff? Of course, you don't, hack.

    Posted by: royal king at January 13, 2008 3:43 PM


    Your fetish/president says 30,000 to 50,000 dead Iraqi civilians, and has for four years. "See the diff?" Pissant.

    But there is absolutely no reason to discount the Lancet study in favor of the New England Journal's - the methodology employed by the two appear to be very similar, although the Lancet's methodology is presented in much greater detail. I would suspect that a careful comparison between the two studies (a comparison I have not seen) could flesh out the actual mortality level.

    ...But what the fuck do you know about the "diff" between 150,000 and 650,000 dead people? Does the former actually represent a significantly lower degree of misery, pain and tragedy than the latter? - at what point does a human death toll reach the point of "diminishing returns" in such regards?

    All you know is that you want America to be out there in the world killing people, and that you want to be very far from the action.

    SLOB, you miss the point. Facts should not be politicized. If Soros declared 150,000 dead, it would have been horrific. By misrepresenting the figure, he has lost what credibility he has.

    So you defend the hack because "what's the difference. Its this mentailty that makes you lefties and your relationship with the news ridiculous. Its the same defense Rather used when he presented "forged documents". He stood by his report regardless of the facts... what? His credibility was tarnished forever. Its the same logic that allows you to laud Olbermann's flawed reporting. He has no credibility when he distorts the facts to form an agenda.

    Its called propaganda- not reporting. Thats the fine line. When you intentionally investigate only the facts you agree with you are a hack, not a truth seeker.

    'SLOB, you miss the point. Facts should not be politicized. If Soros declared 150,000 dead, it would have been horrific. By misrepresenting the figure, he has lost what credibility he has."


    To my knowledge, "Soros" didn't declare shit: The Lancet and Johns Hopkins - the world's leading authorities in epidemiology - did in a methodologically transparent and peer-reviewed study. I am certainly receptive to this more recent NEJM study, and have stated that the matter should be looked into to a greater degree in order to reconcile the conflicting results.

    ...But are you willing to admit - by your own stated criteria - that Bush has "lost what credibility" he may have had because of his repeated statements that only 35,000 to 50,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed to date?

    ...Are you prepared to call your fetish/president a "hack". Benson?

    SLOB,

    So you are a 911 Troofer who used to serve on Seal Team 6, or something?

    SLOB,

    So you are a 911 Troofer who used to serve on Seal Team 6, or something?


    Posted by: Rico at January 14, 2008 10:23 AM


    ?

    SLOB,

    Don't be such a dingbat.

    "All you know is that you want America to be out there in the world killing people, and that you want to be very far from the action."

    Tell us, SLOB, under what circumstances you want "America to be out there killing people" and how you will be joining the action, and why we should believe you.

    Tell us, SLOB, under what circumstances you want "America to be out there killing people" and how you will be joining the action, and why we should believe you.

    Posted by: Rico at January 14, 2008 10:42 AM


    Well. you're right; I could state my criteria for such military action and for my own altruistic sacrifice therein, but you would have no reason to accept them. I understand that; and I don't give a shit.

    ...but circumstances allow us all to be fully aware of YOUR position; and that of Phari-cee, rk, Phoney Laura Nugent, etc:

    You all support this war emphatically and ecstatically, as well as the one your partisan masters are brewing with Iran

    - and not one of you are going to go within 5000 miles of either "existential" conflict.

    Here are a few examples of Hillary's lack of leadership in the Senate:
    ~~~~~~~~
    Hillary did nothing to prevent the Senate confirmation of John Ashcroft.
    Hillary did nothing to prevent the Senate confirmation of Alberto Gonzales.
    Hillary did nothing regarding the failed Senate confirmation of John Bolton.
    Hillary voted FOR cloture on the nomination of corrupt corporatist Priscilla Owen, clearing the way for her confirmation to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.
    Hillary voted FOR cloture on the nomination of unqualified fascist Janice Rogers Brown, clearing the way for her confirmation to the DC Court of Appeals.
    Hillary voted FOR cloture on the nomination of religious zealot and homophobe William H. Pryor, clearing the way for his confirmation to the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals.
    Hillary voted FOR cloture on the nomination of John Roberts, clearing the way for his confirmation as Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court.
    Hillary said little or nothing during the Senate confirmation of Samuel Alito.
    Hillary did nothing to prevent the Senate confirmation of Michael Mukasey.
    Hillary said nothing during this summer's vote on the Iraq War Supplemental.
    Hillary said little or nothing during the vote to extend FISA.
    Hillary said little or nothing on the Walter Reid scandal, even though she sits on the Senate Armed Services Committee.
    Hillary has said nothing during the current debate on Telecom Immunity.
    Hillary has said nothing on the possible impeachment of Dick Cheney.
    Hillary has said nothing on the possible impeachment of George Bush.
    Hillary has said nothing on the myriad scandals surrounding the current administration.
    Hillary campaigned for Joe Lieberman against Ned Lamont
    Hillary did nothing to stop Medicare Part D
    Hillary did nothing to stop the 2005 Bankruptcy Bill
    Hillary voted FOR the 2001 Bankruptcy Bill
    Hillary proposed legislation to ban flag burning.
    Hillary voted FOR the USAPATRIOT act.
    Hillary voted FOR the reauthorization of the USAPATRIOT act.
    Hillary voted AGAINST an amendment that would prohibit the use of cluster bombs against civilian targets.
    Hillary voted FOR the Iraq War Resolution.
    Hillary voted FOR the Kyl/Lieberman amendment.

    Posted by: Anyone but HILLARY at January 14, 2008 11:20 AM


    Amen; Hillary is a fascist collaborator who will change nothing.

    Hillary Clinton Researcher Uncovers Tall Tales By Jim Kouri Saturday, January 12, 2008

    "...On one occasion, she implied that she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary, but he climbed Mount Everest years after she was born..."

    http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/1350

    Becky of "Blogging Olbermann" (formally, Irrelevant Torture) was CONTACTED by Playboy to write a POSITIVE and SUPPORTIVE letter on Olbermann's behalf, because they got a HUGE reponse of NEGATIVE Olbermann letters. God, I love the liberal media!

    "...I’m sure you all remember the Playboy interview back in September. Shortly after the release of the magazine (and after a couple of discussions of it here on ERT) I was contacted by Playboy editor Chip Rowe via the site’s contact form.

    He said that they were getting overwhelmingly negative response on the interview* - mostly for the Fox Noise remarks, though some were just general anti-KO sentiment - and that he’d like to balance that with something positive from someone with my “expertise.” ..."

    http://bloggingolbermann.com/2008/01/dear-playboy/#more-1186

    And they allowed her to use a fake name in posting the solicited, positive letter. Yet this was the same group of women who demanded and indeed, attempted to hire a PI to track down who KarmaBites was. Here though they are praising "Becky" for using a fake name to write a fake letter. Tells you a lot-apparently they couldn't get a single positive letter and had to go begging for one. Why didn't they just cut out the middleman and contact Olbermann himself and let him write his own using a fake name. Merkle923 perhaps?

    slob

    It's called war. While you're defending Sorass, how many of the "somewhere in between' were active terrorists and potential suicide bombers? How do you sleep at night knowing full well you want to lose the war?

    It's called war. While you're defending Sorass, how many of the "somewhere in between' were active terrorists and potential suicide bombers? How do you sleep at night knowing full well you want to lose the war?

    Posted by: royal king at January 14, 2008 1:19 PM

    So its "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" to the cowardly chickenhawk rk. If you had any knowledge regarding the studies you pretend to discuss you would realize that both focused on "civilians" only. But to you, I realize, any Muslim is an enemy.

    Of course, as Dick Cheney realized when he initiated the occupation, a civilian population occupied interminably by a foreign power will inevitably supply an insurgency with recruits, so perhaps you have hit on something; this war is designed with the intent of never ending - of making the "liberated" population into a steady stream of "enemies" to keep us engaged, which in turn keeps our tax money flowing into the coffers of the privatized military industrial complex.

    Posted by: Anyone but HILLARY at January 14, 2008 11:20 AM


    What's sad is obamas record is just as dismal. One loon stated that his 'education' qualified him to be president when asked of his qualifications. By that f'ed up logic half of the usa is qualified.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at January 14, 2008 1:35 PM

    I guess SLOB is putting his tin foil hat on now. When is he going to start claiming that Karl Rove fixed the NH primary for Hillary? Do us all a favor SLOB. Click your heals and go back to the land of OZ.

    I guess SLOB is putting his tin foil hat on now. When is he going to start claiming that Karl Rove fixed the NH primary for Hillary? Do us all a favor SLOB. Click your heals and go back to the land of OZ.

    Posted by: The Factor at January 14, 2008 1:56 PM


    My "heals"? Go back to school, you fascist retard.

    My "heals"? Go back to school, you fascist .

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at January 14, 2008 2:00 PM

    You first. While you are there, try reading a history book. Every fascist in history has been a socialist "progressive" that claimed they were nationalizing industry for the good of the worker.

    Every fascist in history has been a socialist "progressive" that claimed they were nationalizing industry for the good of the worker.

    Posted by: The Factor at January 14, 2008 2:08 PM

    Fascist is as fascist does, Forrest. If it ends up short-circuiting democracy in favor of arbitrary rule by an industrial oligarchy, then its fascism.

    So the recent surge in Iraq on Al Queda reportedly killed 60 members of the renegade terrorist group last week. Using the Soros math- that means we killed 300 terrorist killers last week. Hooo Rahhh!

    "In recent days, some governments in the Middle East have been doing their part. They have delivered public and private messages urging the dictator to leave Iraq, so that disarmament can proceed peacefully. He has thus far refused. All the decades of deceit and cruelty have now reached an end. Saddam Hussein and his sons must leave Iraq within 48 hours. Their refusal to do so will result in military conflict, commenced at a time of our choosing. For their own safety, all foreign nationals -- including journalists and inspectors -- should leave Iraq immediately.

    "Many Iraqis can hear me tonight in a translated radio broadcast, and I have a message for them. If we must begin a military campaign, it will be directed against the lawless men who rule your country and not against you. As our coalition takes away their power, we will deliver the food and medicine you need. We will tear down the apparatus of terror and we will help you to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and free. In a free Iraq, there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbors, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and rape rooms. The tyrant will soon be gone. The day of your liberation is near.

    "It is too late for Saddam Hussein to remain in power. It is not too late for the Iraqi military to act with honor and protect your country by permitting the peaceful entry of coalition forces to eliminate weapons of mass destruction. Our forces will give Iraqi military units clear instructions on actions they can take to avoid being attacked and destroyed. I urge every member of the Iraqi military and intelligence services, if war comes, do not fight for a dying regime that is not worth your own life.

    "And all Iraqi military and civilian personnel should listen carefully to this warning. In any conflict, your fate will depend on your action. Do not destroy oil wells, a source of wealth that belongs to the Iraqi people. Do not obey any command to use weapons of mass destruction against anyone, including the Iraqi people. War crimes will be prosecuted. War criminals will be punished. And it will be no defense to say, "I was just following orders."

    "Should Saddam Hussein choose confrontation, the American people can know that every measure has been taken to avoid war, and every measure will be taken to win it. Americans understand the costs of conflict because we have paid them in the past. War has no certainty, except the certainty of sacrifice.

    "Yet, the only way to reduce the harm and duration of war is to apply the full force and might of our military, and we are prepared to do so. If Saddam Hussein attempts to cling to power, he will remain a deadly foe until the end. In desperation, he and terrorists groups might try to conduct terrorist operations against the American people and our friends. These attacks are not inevitable. They are, however, possible. And this very fact underscores the reason we cannot live under the threat of blackmail. The terrorist threat to America and the world will be diminished the moment that Saddam Hussein is disarmed.

    President Bush 3/17/2003

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html


    ###
    Lucy (SLOB) places those civilian deaths at the feet of George Bush and the troops that have follwed his orders.....NO!.....They belong at the feet of Saddam Hussein and any person who chose to fight against the lawful and just forces given the authority to place Iraq in compliance with international decree....

    Period. Insurgents choosing to take up arms against a superior and justified authority that has the support of the ELECTED Iraqi government....ditto......Terrorists who see Iraq as a place to assert their sick and twisted ideology of killing cvilians.....ditto.....

    Lucy is and always will be assigning blame to The United States of American because he believes the conspiracy theories and economic radicalism of the far left.....

    He is wrong and all that comes from that poisoned fruit is wrong.

    Armed conflict was CHOSEN by Saddam Hussein and those in power of Iraq....after their defeat, continuing violence continues because of choices made by radicals and ideologues with intentions fro thwart the slow progression to democracy in Iraq.

    The "numbers" are demogoguery....Just like Lucy blames Vietnam civilian deaths on the imperialistic USA, he continues the same mistake now.....

    Leave him to his bitterness.

    Fascist is as fascist does, Forrest.
    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at January 14, 2008 2:19 PM

    Fascist = State run mandatory heath care.

    Fascist = National ID card = Social Security Card

    Fascist = "The oil companies made obscene profits, I want to take those profits"

    Fascist = The War on Poverty

    Fascist = Stealing of private property "For the endangered species"

    If your looking for a fascist, buy a mirror and hang it up on the wall.

    What's sad is obamas record is just as dismal. One loon stated that his 'education' qualified him to be president when asked of his qualifications. By that f'ed up logic half of the usa is qualified.
    Posted by: royal king at January 14, 2008 1:37 PM

    Actually Obama has more legislative experience than Sen. Clinton AND Sen. Edwards

    http://factcheck.barackobama.com/

    Just how many WMDs were found in Iraq?

    BTY, Remember who propped up Saddam and OBL?

    Who is providing tons of cash to another piss ant dictator, Musharraf?

    Who is going around kissing Arab ass pretending too build a larger "legacy" in the Middle East while he did nothing nationally?

    RK: "By that F'ed up logic, half the usa is qualified."

    The strange thing about THIS kind of thinking is that it completely ignors the fact that we have just been through almost two terms of one of the worst, most incompetent, most arrogant, most damaging, and the most clueless administrations in US History.

    THIS president was supposed to have been 'qualified', yet America would be better off today if a chimpanzee had been frolicking around in the White House for the last seven years.

    I'll take sound judgement over 'experience' anyday

    Pastor Dumbschmuck - "Just how many WMDs were found in Iraq?" Actually quite a few, in terms of weapons-grade uranium, weapons testing sites and plants, shells, and documentation that Iraq was building them and working with North Korea to build more.

    "Remember who propped up Saddam and OBL?" Soviet Russia for the most part.

    Mike, the economy kept growing under that "incompetent" Bush; Islamo-Arab imperialism was finally hit at its core and democracy is taking root there under that "incompetent" Bush. We're a lot better off today than we were before that "incompetent" Bush came to office.

    The point of my post wannawipe is that Saddam Hussein, as does all of these men and women who choose to fight have that choice.....To place the deaths at the feet of George Bush is illogical and wrong....he gave more than adequate warning of our intentions to inforce international decree and the choice was theirs......

    Please try to remain on subject....the little tangents are growing tiresome.

    I'll take sound judgement over 'experience' anyday

    Posted by: Mike at January 14, 2008 2:59 PM


    Of course you have no problem voting for a part time senator who voted to keep porn available in schools pc's, take his oath of office with his hand on a koran, not a bible and has absolutely no qualifications. No surprises, here.

    So its "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" to the cowardly chickenhawk rk. If you had any knowledge regarding the studies you pretend to discuss you would realize that both focused on "civilians" only. But to you, I realize, any Muslim is an enemy.

    slob

    What did they do? Go around asking dead bodies if they were 'civilians' or 'terrorists?' Or could they tell by the way they looked and dressed? Just curious.

    I am sure glad there were no "how do you feel?" polls in 1945.....The American people sure would have seemed shallow.....Winning a World War and having their loved ones come home sure made them all optimistic.....But.....

    Millions of people had just died in a massive world war with some of them victims of racial hatred...including many Japanese at the hands of the allies.....

    But hey.....our personal lives were good, so the answer to the poll would be?....

    You see Mr. blank-FLUCKER (cue OLD SPICE jingle), your elitist purified view that only some (likely republicans) are for their own power (read: comfort) seems to have hit a snag when you decided to use those nice stats you gleaned from the DNC....People do not answer the poll based on that....they answer it based on their own personal situation and the level of fear or opitimism they have about their personal futures.....

    And the party looking to take over power needs that negative to be high.....

    Congrats on being part of the system that plays to the base fears and greed such sentiment illustrates in your lovely 3:50 PM post.

    I just thought you may be more intelligent in interpreting such "right direction/wrong direction" polls....especially since we live in such an informed and "right priority" society.

    What did they do? Go around asking dead bodies if they were 'civilians' or 'terrorists?' Or could they tell by the way they looked and dressed? Just curious.

    Posted by: royal king at January 14, 2008 4:01 PM


    You're an absolute fucking idiot. I can't believe I've actually been conversing with you.

    Read the studies you are pontificating about (specifically the Research Design sections) then get back with me - maybe I'll respond.

    THIS president was supposed to have been 'qualified', yet America would be better off today if a chimpanzee had been frolicking around in the White House for the last seven years.

    Posted by: Mike at January 14, 2008 2:59 PM

    Holy shit, is Mike still posting on this board after getting his ass handed to him on a continuous basis?

    Mike's refusal to acknowledge our progress in the war with Iraq and his willingness to throw in with the defeatists (Murtha/Sheehan/Reid/Pelosi) expose his hyper-partisan agenda. Further, Mike's failure to appreciate the consequences of the withdrawal (or "deployment") he has so fervently urged reveals his wish to see a desired political outcome rather than a course that would offer the best chance for security and stability.

    In the history of this site, has Mike ever posted anything that was worth a shit?

    Wahabism is the RADICAL ISLAMIC teaching that is followed by the
    Muslim
    terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world.
    Since
    it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking major

    public office in the United States , Barack Hussein Obama has joined

    the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim

    background. ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into
    office he
    DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Koran.

    Please Mr. blank-FLUCKER (cue OLD SPICE jingle)....your nice neat list is a talking points memo to explain why Americans are full of fear and disgust at the horrible conditions we all live in here in The USA.....

    The suffering masses.....oh dear only 6% growth in Christmas sales from last year....when will the devastating news end!

    Your pontificating is nothing more than regurgitated Democrat talk show rebuts...the gas prices, the housing market, casualty numbers.....

    The gas you emit has an odor of bile from the aged gut you are carrying, Daddy FLUCKER (cue Mr. Magoo theme).....In fact, I have noticed your posts have been pretty sad lately with little original thought or cogent points....I guess this is a bad time for you.

    "Millions of people had just died in a massive world war with some of them victims of racial hatred...including many Japanese at the hands of the allies....."


    ...in a war in which we had actually been attacked first, or had war declared against us, by all our enemies! Some argument, Phari-cee; based entirely on another "what if" scenario.

    Quit equating the current voluntary international piracy with WWII; its patently ridiculous.

    "Quit equating the current voluntary international piracy with WWII"


    ###
    I did not Loin....I made the connection to "the mood of the country" and why it was happy in 1945 in the midst of some of the worst things to befall mankind in history....Including the thoudsands of deaths of US citizens as troops AND great evidence of man's potential for evil.....

    Mood and right/wrong direction polls simply show yet another aspect of the narcissitic nature of our culture today, Lucy.....I find them and the way politicians use the results to manipulate people with them illogical and repugnant.....

    I expect such behavior from FLUCKER....he is an elitist fool....

    I guess that just flew over your head.

    Quit equating the current voluntary international piracy with WWII; its patently ridiculous.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at January 14, 2008 4:28 PM

    Really, explain how they are different?

    How many people died on 9/11 vs. Pearl Harbor?

    When did Germany/Italy attack the United States during WWII?

    Come on now FLUCKER.....those "people" were really mistaking Mr. Jurgens for the other actor in THE SPY WHO LOVED ME....who was that now?....

    Oh yeah, they really thought you resembled the guy who played Jaws...Richard Kiel....

    Sadam gave Ayman al-Zawahiri $300,000 after Bin Laden issued a fatwa against the United states in 1998.

    Sadam gave Ayman al-Zawahiri $300,000 after Bin Laden issued a fatwa against the United states in 1998.


    Posted by: The Factor at January 14, 2008 5:35 PM

    So you and FreeRepublic, Frontpagemag, NewsMax, and the Weekly Standard say. The 9/11 commission, I believe, had nothing to report in this regard, nor does any other credible source.

    But let's say such a payment was made by Saddam to his sworn enemies, who derided him as a "secular socialist" and called for his overthrow by the Iraqis; is $300,000 likely to be more or less than the profits made by Shafiq bin Laden, Osama's half-brother, in his partnerships with GHW Bush and the Carlylse group? Osama's fortunes come from his family, and their relationship with him is essential to their survival in anti-American Saudi Arabia.

    Shall we carpet-bomb and occupy Kennebunkport and Crawford?


    "Several members of the Bush family are investors in the Carlyle Group, a defense contractor and investment fund with numerous interests in the Saudi Arabia and the Middle East and connections to the Saudi Binladen Group, run by former Bush administration Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci.[92] On September 10, 2001, former President George H.W. Bush and several members of his cabinet had been present at a Carlyle Group business conference with Shafig bin Laden, a half-brother of Osama bin Laden, at the Ritz-Carlton hotel located several miles from the Pentagon. The conference was continuing with the remaining cabinet members and Bin Laden's brother at the time of the Pentagon attack.[93][94] George H.W. Bush remained an advisor to the Carlyle Group for two years after the attacks."

    I expect such behavior from FLUCKER....he is an elitist fool....


    Posted by: cee at January 14, 2008 4:36 PM


    Really? Then why does he seem to be so well-informed and logically positioned, while you defensively manuever within a cloud of unaccountable, incoherent superstition and stark fascist propaganda?

    How many people died on 9/11 vs. Pearl Harbor?

    When did Germany/Italy attack the United States during WWII?

    Posted by: The Factor at January 14, 2008 4:53 PM


    Thanks to those above who fielded this one for me. Does factor think we hit Germany first under the Bush Doctrine? These people are clueless!

    Oh, and by the way - George's grandpa Prescott Bush remained invested in the Third Reich through his investments through Thyssen Steel and the Union Banking Corporation until 1942 (four years after German industrialist Thyssen himself had fled Germanty and denounced Hitler). He only divested when forced to by frozen assets and senate hearings.

    Bushes always semm to to be in cahoots wth America's enemies.

    Hannity: “It wouldn’t have bothered me one bit, Geraldo, if we blew those ships right out of the water.”

    “The captain would have been justified,” Geraldo readily agreed.

    “What ought we do with Ahmadinejad at this point?” Hannity asked Geraldo who is not exactly a foreign policy expert. “He continues to pursue weapons of mass destruction,” Hannity claimed. (US National Intelligence Estimate explicitly says otherwise).

    Geraldo: “We’ve got to make very clear rules of engagement that allow us to fire a shot across the bow at 300 yards, engage with deadly force at 200 yards.” As precedent, he cited the fact that similar rules are in effect on Humvees in Iraq and Afghanistan.


    Colmes said, “It’s good that there was NOT a shooting incident.”

    Geraldo said, “You know, it’s good except what happens next time, Alan?”

    Colmes continued, “Do we know exactly what happened because I don’t.” Colmes added that there’s an incentive, as Bush goes to the Middle East to build a coalition against Iran, to try to show that Iran is provocative.

    “But that’s skepticism, Alan,” Rivera said. He claimed that this can’t have been faked because there’s a video. (video edited from a 20-minute incident to a 4-minute war-commercial in which the audio does not match the video being shown)

    Senor, who formerly worked for the CPA in Iraq, said he had just returned from the Gulf. “And I will tell you that you talk to the players up and down, they are terrified of Iran. They don’t need an incident in the Strait of Hormuz to terrify them.”

    “What harm would have come if we had fired a 50 caliber machine gun at one of those vessels?” Rivera asked.

    An astounded Colmes said, “It could have escalated! Escalation is the harm that could have come.”

    “They’re the ones who are being provocative,” Hannity said petulantly.

    “I don’t want war with Iran,” Rivera claimed. “But any vessel that comes that close to a Navy war ship, it does so at its own peril.”

    I think RK is Hannity and Factor is Geraldo - if not Bill O'Reilly himself. You can almost hear their vicarious bloodlust's heavy panting.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at January 14, 2008 7:14 PM

    We should bomb GE and NBC since they do business with the Bin Landen family.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at January 14, 2008 7:14 PM

    We should bomb GE and NBC since they do business with the Bin Landen family.

    Posted by: The Factor at January 14, 2008 8:04 PM

    If you are serious, then you should not overlook the Bush family compounds. Why do you find it so easy to compartmentalize in this way?

    Oh, and by the way - George's grandpa Prescott Bush remained invested in the Third Reich through his investments through Thyssen Steel and the Union Banking Corporation until 1942 (four years after German industrialist Thyssen himself had fled Germanty and denounced Hitler). He only divested when forced to by frozen assets and senate hearings.

    Bushes always semm to to be in cahoots wth America's enemies.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at January 14, 2008 7:44 PM

    What a moron. He can't make an argument so he attacks Bush's Grandfather. LOL FDR got his new deal ideas from Mussolini. You want more useless info that has no relevance to this argument? Again I ask you, when did Germany/Italy attack the United States? Why was this not a preemptive war? You have no answer. Per you logic, we only should have attacked Japan.

    "FDR got his new deal ideas from Mussolini."

    You mean that part about harshly curtailing profits from war industries? No wait...that was anathema to Mussolini's creed.

    Mussolini's power depended upon the coersion applied by his police/military in the interests of the war-profiteering industrialists who supported him monetarilly. It was 20th century mercantilism, pure and simple.

    Conversely, FDR was called a "traitor to his class" by blue-blooded war profiteers like Prescott Bush for his insistace that a healthy democracy depends on the economic health and potency of the middle and lower classes.

    You have no idea what you are talking about.


    ....and; OMG!!! You really DID think that WWII was a preemptive attack!! HAR HAR HAR!! Jesus Christ you righties are deluded...and did I mention STUPID AS FUCK?!

    ANON is correct: Adolph and Benito DECLARED WAR on us! You stupid fucking morons.

    Probably also the interment camps for the Japanese. No, wait! That was from the other guy!
    The one with the H in the name.

    Hiroito.

    Posted by: Once more I have to agree with The Fuctoid at January 14, 2008 8:42 PM


    ...and by the way; Hitler, in various writings and interviews, claimed to have borrowed the idea of the concentration camp directly from the American genocide of the Plains Indians. FDR was influenced by one of the more sordid aspects of our heritage when he made that horrible mistake.

    Will somebody please put SLOB's stash of Jose Cuervo where he can't get at it until he his head clears out over this nutty Carlyle Group/Bush nonsense. This crap has been shot down so many times, you could start a lead smelting business. Go hang out with your fellow crackpots and exchange stories about how Diebolt rigged the election, 9/11 was an inside job, etc.

    there was something very suspicious how the Bin Ladens got a free trip out of the USA immediately after 9/11, after all other air travel was grounded.

    Must be sweet living in lala land Hank !

    Posted by: at January 14, 2008 11:07 PM


    Ripped from doughnut gut moore's comedy movie! Can you give us a movie review on "loose change," next?

    I think RK is Hannity and Factor is Geraldo - if not Bill O'Reilly himself. You can almost hear their vicarious bloodlust's heavy panting.

    Posted by: Sir Loin of Beef at January 14, 2008 8:00 PM


    First I was Savage. Then I was compared to Kristol and Rove. Now I am likened to Hannity. I'm in great company. Couldn't be more honored.

    No review on 'loose change?' how disappointing.

    Are you being deliberately stupid? Germany and Italy declared war on the United States. By definition, the resulting conflict could not be preemptive. Is this really that hard for you to understand?

    Posted by: A N O N Y M O U S at January 14, 2008 8:52 PM

    Islamo Fascist declared war on the US when they took hostages during the Carter administration. Saddam declared war on is in 1994 and again in 1998, So again. I ask you how is our invasion of Iraq different than our Invasion of Germany and Italy?

    "Will somebody please put SLOB's stash of Jose Cuervo where he can't get at it until he his head clears out over this nutty Carlyle Group/Bush nonsense. This crap has been shot down so many times, you could start a lead smelting business. "


    "Shot down"? I think you meant to say "ignored". What are you talking about? Are you claiming that papa Bush is not on on the board of directors of Carlylse, and that he was not at a conferrence with Shafiq bin Laden on the morning of Sept 11, 2001?

    Islamo Fascist declared war on the US when they took hostages during the Carter administration. Saddam declared war on is in 1994 and again in 1998, So again. I ask you how is our invasion of Iraq different than our Invasion of Germany and Italy?

    Posted by: The Factor at January 15, 2008 1:06 AM


    Wow. You are as worthless a rhetorical opponent as is RK - I shall have to start pointedly ignoring your posts.


    First; Let me congratulate you on your utterly honorless shifting of your position to suit your arguments' failures! Your unaccountable fetish President would be so proud.


    To "declare war" in international politics is not some mushy, imprecise mood you can get into through a range of behaviors or symbolic acts. Its a very specific statement from one government to another.

    The rebelling students of 1978 Iran have no connection ideologically or organizationally to Saddam. In fact, we gave shit-tons of money, weapons, and satellite intelligence io Saddam following that event in order to punish Iran by proxie for our humiliation. Something over a half-million Iranians were killed in that war by the forces of the man you now claim to be their compatriot.

    I don't know what you're talking about in regard to Saddam's "declaring war". I'm sure its just as full of idiotic neocon bullshit as the issue dealt with above.

    Thanks, patsy!

    Don't get me started on the peanut farmer, please.

    Again, in a few short days, you have proved me wrong.

    posted by patsy

    That ain't sayin much, patsy. My dog could do that!

    "In the history of this site, has Mike ever posted anything that was worth a shit?
    Posted by: Jibber Jabber at January 14, 2008 4:07 PM"

    I decline to answer on the grounds that it might incriminate me. :)

    Grammie

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