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    Olbermann Watch, "persecuting" Keith since 2004


    March 12, 2008
    Keith Olbermann Smackdown from Glenn Beck

    "Edward R Murrow would have despised Keith Olbermann."


    Posted by johnny dollar | Permalink | Comments (114) | | View blog reactions

    114 Comments

    Now you had to go a do it! Johnny, you made me watch this clip of Olbermann because I love Glenn Beck, and the second I saw the fake newscaster, traitor, anti-American Olbermann I got sick.

    I have only gotten any news about this fake from OW, because to actually watch olbermann makes me sick. He goes against all that is good in America, but thankfully Beck's trashing of this fake pulled me through.

    Great point he made also in exposing the Times for their lies also to where they must have slipped up in stating that "some" muslim states hate Jews.

    In the future though I will leave it up to you Johnny to watch olbermann's lies and get the facts from the posters here.

    Next time though, you should give a warning that there could be a clip of olbermann's show, something like: "beware of this clip as some scenes in it could be offensive to any true Americans" etc.

    "beware of this clip as some scenes in it could be offensive to any true Americans"

    "True Americans": Americans who think in rigid uncompromising dogma like myself.

    Kind of reminds me of how Archie Bunker used to use the term "regular Americans" to define HIS OWN rigid version of patriotism.

    Wolverine, you're a phony, right? No one could be that dense. Who are you shilling for? Cox himself or some far right wing fringe group?

    Posted by: Mike at March 12, 2008 1:11 AM

    More of the liar Mike defending Olbermann. Something he says he never does. Mike is an Olbermann stooge which means lying is as easy as breathing.

    A phony Mike because I hate olbermann, and all that he stands for. His anti-American chants. His anti-anything good about America.

    Because I hate his lies, his un-truths and to how HE hates all that is good in this country because he was never man enough to hang with real men.

    Hey Mike, I have been reading this blog for close to a year now because when I happened to see olberman once or twice back then he really made me sick. Actually he made my 5 friends and me sick, and then I wanted to see why this guy even had a show to where I came upon OW.

    So to you I'm a phony because I hate anti-Americans? Well I'll do you one better if you live anywhere near New York I'll meet you and we'll discuss this further.

    No problem. You pick a landmark and we'll set the time, and I'll be there. believe me I'll be there. Nobody calls me a phony because of my love for my country, and if that to you means I'm a phony then we really have to talk.

    Totally agree with you, wolverine. I quit watching KO last summer because of his hate for America and anything good. (And I rarely watch MSNBC.) I depend on this site to keep me informed.

    Glenn Beck nails it. Keith never watched Glenn's show. Keith just lifts material straight from the left wing blogs and runs with it on his show.

    home run.

    I guess we're all "phonies" then right Mike?

    You know the ones that love America, and hate this anti-American fool who tries to appeal to all the anti-American liberals out there.

    You know the olby sucks, Juan, the Neo-Con, James, john, the Factor, Johnny, Sharon, Grammie, Cee, Cecelia, phony soldier, etc.

    Phony indeed. Because one loves his country, then one is to believe they are a phony. What world do you live in?

    where did all this hatred for your country come from?

    I love my country, and although I want McCain to win if it doesn't happen I'm rooting for whomever does win after the election, whether it be Clinton of Obama, and you can be damn sure i won't be dissing on the Commander in Chief like you and your other so called "Americans" do everyday on this site.

    And, no matter who is in the White House I will still hate olbermann until the day he dies, as I will always hate anti-americans. OBL and olbermann go hand in hand to me, and the only difference is that one hides in a cave while the other hides behind the constitution.

    Phony, my ass...

    To begin with Wolverine, I'm not the one who called you a "phony". All I did is call you on your decidedly un-American assertion that anyone that doesn't think like you, or like Glenn Beck, is anti-American.

    The bottom line is that you can hate anyone you like, but it is not YOUR call to decide who is "anti-American", and who is not.....and until you understand that simple concept.....you will never know what it is to be REALLY American.

    Factor: "More of the liar Mike defending Olbermann."

    And if this poster was actually smart enough to understand my post, he would have understood that I wasn't really defending Olbermann at all.....I was attacking the argument of someone un-American enough to think he knows how someone must think and feel in order to be a "true American".

    Glenn Beck lets his viewers know he is a conservative.He is not a journalist.He is just giving his opinion,and has guests on who differ with him to debate.KO says he is non partisan.Is a journalist.Gets his "opinions" from the daily kos,then sits on his high horse and belittles,mocks,scolds,and passes judgement on comservatives without giving them any rebuttal.How can anyone defend this guy? BECK "Once a liberal blog posts something it's a fact to the zombies." Loved that line.

    Wow, Beck just completely validated every person on this board who has ever said the exact same thing. I should start watching him more

    Beck just took Olberdoosh to the shed for a whup ass beating

    Krazy Keith is all lift and read
    Liberal hack one must concede
    He's NBC's shill
    No journalistic skill
    A teleprompter is all he'll need

    Sorry this was to go under the comments of 3/10/08, but the thread was closed while I was typing

    Let's see; multiple violations of the Hatch Act, he outed a spy (plausible deniability is *not* innocence, and at the very least *his* guys did it, so he's responsible) so there's the Intelligence Identities Protection Act that he broke, too.

    The list is long; Cece, why don't you google us all a list of administration lawlessness, cupcake.

    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 1:15 AM
    -----------------
    the hatch act: http://www.osc.gov/ha_fed.htm Please note this passage: In 1993, Congress passed legislation that significantly amended the Hatch Act as it applies to federal and D.C. employees (5 U.S.C. §§ 7321-7326). (These amendments did not change the provisions that apply to state and local employees. 5 U.S.C. §§ 1501- 1508.) Under the amendments most federal and D.C. employees are now permitted to take an active part in political management and political campaigns.
    now detail his transgressions against it
    -next- if your talking Plame, remember is was a democrat bureaucrat put in place under clinton that was known for opposing the Bush administrations policies that outed her, Richard Armitrage
    -----------------------------------------------

    Mike and Broadsword- you say W broke the law by waterboarding because waterboarding is torture...Bush went to Congress and asked for a definition of torture...because dems were saying we don't want to define torture, but we know it when we see it (a paraphrasing of the stupidest thing to happen under Reagan and the definiton of pornography)...thus a definition without end...Bush asked for specifics...which is smart because having to listen to posters like olielly and loiny would fall under the torture category too if not specifically defined...waterboarding is not the first club out of the bag, but is there if necessary
    -----------------
    lastly, you contend that Bush acts like a King...how many Kings have term limits, how many kings require congressional approval on numerous things, how many kings would allow the unprecedented amount of and vile filled speech against themselves to go on daily without any crackdown at all...why the answer is no king at all would, but the president of a nation of laws would...and he has

    Mike

    Wolverine is entitled to his opinion...same as you. If he feels that KO is anti-american that is up to him...others can agree or disagree...that's what makes america great!

    GB is a nutjob who is fixated on the end of days. Just search both on youtube and theres a plethora of clips of him and his obsession. Now that he is exposed as a whackjob its all just a big joke. This guy is a moron. The litany of stupid things he's said on radio or TV is as long as my arm.

    I hadn't involved in the discussion based upon Mike's brilliant bit of logic that because many people think that Saddam Hussein had somehow been involved in 9/11, therefore the administration must have been putting this message out.

    I'm going to assume that Mike's charge is NOT that the Bush Administration intentionally perpetrated what they KNEW was wrong information, but they they fully believed it and tried to sell it and should have been more cautious coming to their conclusions. I'm going to assume this because I don't' think it's wrong for elected officials to make a case for policy based upon 1. the world view they brought to the table when elected 2. how these elected leaders interpret the classified information given to them.

    As I said, I wasn't involved in this discussion, but Broad Sword aka "Dull Blade" aka "Butter Knife" aka "Bobo" has seemingly involved me in it by referring to
    "Cece" when he linked to his "smoking gun" video of Cheney mentioning the Atta-Saddam meeting in Prague that was based upon a Czech official's still unconfirmed charge.

    Here's what the VP said:

    "Now, is there a connection between the Iraqi government and the original World Trade Center bombing in ’93? We know, as I say, that one of the perpetrators of that act did, in fact, receive support from the Iraqi government after the fact. With respect to 9/11, of course, we’ve had the story that’s been public out there. The Czechs alleged that Mohamed Atta, the lead attacker, met in Prague with a senior Iraqi intelligence official five months before the attack, but we’ve never been able to develop anymore of that yet either in terms of confirming it or discrediting it. We just don’t know."

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080244/


    Cheney clearly said the charge was unconfirmed and that "we just don't know".

    Should Cheney have mentioned unconfirmed reports in a discussion on national tv? No. Was he eager to bolster his own conclusions. Yes. Was he alone among members of congress from both parties who thought the Czech official's charges were likely true? No. But would this statement on Meet The Press account for so many in the public believing that Saddam was involved in 9/11 too? No.

    Would the simple explanation that Saddam was a bad man, who had invaded another country in the past, had been to war with the U.S. before, and had plotted to kill the first Pres. Bush, have made the majority of John Q. Public likely to think he would be one of the abettors of 9/11. Duhhhh....

    Call Saddam part of the "Gang of Many [bad people in the Middle East who are not so fond of the U.S.A.]", if it helps you to personally understand (and perhaps identify with) the way people can leap to such mental associations, Einsteins...


    Mike, I am sorry that as the coward who said the phony comment came right after you. My bad, and I do apologize.

    However, when I said anti-American I was specifically talking about olbermann, and anybody who follows this traitor.

    It is one thing to disagree with what a president says or does, but a whole other thing to be ripping him apart daily with no proof or logic. Calling him names, and comparing him to Hitler is not my idea of an American. Especially when none of it's true.

    You say I haven't any idea of what a "true American" is, well I will try to keep my answer brief:

    One who, if he does disagree with what a president says or does, disagrees back but NOT with the name calling or lack of respect that he shows everyday.

    One who doesn't fabricate EVERY story to help his ratings at the possible cost of American lives. His constant rantings about how horrible the president is in regards to waterboarding, wire taps, etc only help the cause of the enemy.

    One who no matter who the president is will report both the good and the bad of what that president said or did, as you can bet your last dollar that if McCain is elected he'll be comparing him to Hitler too. And when was the last time he ever said anything good about Mr. Bush?

    Mike you knew what I meant when I said un-American so let's cut through the crap about what I meant. I think I remember reading on this site somewhere about how you served in the armed forces, and if that is true then to me it makes it that much harder for me to come back at you, as any American who has served deserves the utmost respect.

    That is why I rarely have come back at you, but even so, the man who I can truly say with a clear conscience is un-American is olbermann. Not a doubt in the world.

    Worse than that he is a traitor too, as there are many un-American people who live in this country, but none who have their own show preaching lies about our commander-in-chief at the possible risk of American lives.

    And if this poster was actually smart enough to understand my post, he would have understood that I wasn't really defending Olbermann at all.....I was attacking the argument of someone un-American enough to think he knows how someone must think and feel in order to be a "true American".

    Posted by: Mike at March 12, 2008 3:22 AM

    Well, can you tell me the difference between suggesting that some people aren't "true" Americans and some of the rhetoric you use that suggests that your ideological opponents are hate mongers, largely uneducated, selfish and uncaring of those in need, blood thirsty and robotic?

    Glen Beck is as much of a journalist as Chef Boyardee is a Italian chef.

    That's our O'Lielly. He's at a loss to point out one thing in Beck's piece that is incorrect, so he calls names. Keith has been exposed yet again, and the Olbypologists, unable to answer with any substance, restort to character assassination. Man, it doesn't get better than this!

    Phony indeed. Fake tough, phony moral.

    Conservatives; they'll follow anybody who says what they want to hear.

    Hey Cecelia;

    Don't you ever get tired of lying?

    "Cheney clearly said the charge was unconfirmed and that "we just don't know"."

    Yeah. Watch to the end for what he said a couple of months before that on Meet the Press, in the run-up to war:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waLRhUQmw7U

    So, you're either totally self-deluded, or a willful liar.

    Which is it?

    Johnny Two Cents... you think I would hit play on a Glen Beck comment.. no thanks I have these previous comments to destroy his credibility..

    [lengthy unattributed cut & paste deleted --J$]

    I could see why his mother offed herself.

    No I didn't. But then again I didn't think you'd flat out admit that you condemn something without bothering to see it first. What's next? Are you going to post reviews of books you haven't read? Maybe start a series of comments on news events that haven't happened yet? What a hack!

    olielly-
    there are
    as many or more
    as bad or worse
    statements that KO makes and yet you defend him...why should you be upset that someone defends GB? (self-editorial note: I do not watch his show and have only been exposed to snippets of him online at various sites like this)

    So if I attributed my cut and pase to it's source you would leave it alone ?

    OK, we'll play let's pretend. This time we'll pretend that you don't already know the rules for this stuff. Here we go,

    See, it's this way BOL. Lengthy cut-and-pastes are not permitted. If you want to direct people to someone else's work you post a link, with A Sentence Or Two to give the flavor. Got that? Then if someone's interested they can follow your link.

    Of course for all I know you won't even read this because you have the uncanny ability to judge things you've never seen or read. In which case I will be happy to apply a more severe punishment the next time you pull your little ad hominem tricks. Go ahead. Make my day.

    In the past it was stated that " off topic" Cut and paste were to be deleted... How is a Wikipedia post anything other than an unbiased source , and since we are talking about Glen Beck how come his statements are off topic ?

    And, Cece, you're putting Cheney's lie out there as though nobody else in the administration was out, front-and-center, lying through their teeth about the actual nature of the threat.

    In their own words:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYI7JXGqd0o&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIBH7v_H6Zk


    Get. A. Clue:

    Your credibility is GONE, your philosophy is BANKRUPTED, and you have BUGGERED this nation in the name of jingoism and unbridled greed.

    You have some kind of nerve accusing liberals of being anti-American.

    WE were the ones that LOUDLY said this war was a stupid fucking idea. WE were the ones that stood up and marched against it, and spoke truth to power, in the millions.

    WE were the people who spent some time considering the idea that borrowing a trillion from the Chinese to defecit-finance a tax cut during an unnecessary war was the most fiscally irresponsible thing that this nation HAS EVER DONE.

    YOU are the ones that got down on your knees...and serviced power. YOU are the ones that let fear and paranoia be your guide.

    YOU are the ones that are again and again suckered in to the idea that someone wrapped in the flag, pounding on a bible is to be trusted, despite all evidence to the contrary.

    YOU are responsible for this mess. Reading your 11th hour justifications for the incompetence, secrecy, corruption and arrogance of this 'administration' makes me want to puke.

    You're not a patriot. You're the opposite.

    You wouldn't know patriotism if it bit you in the ass, and sweetheart, in November it's going to.

    Muy Mas Macho ,, typical rightwing thinking. You two have gone out of your way to stifle dissent. What are you afraid of ?

    Watch out Broadsword... We are dealing with people who deal with dissent like Stalin did.

    BOL, Beck is not off-topic. But a lengthy cut-and-paste is still inappropriate. These threads are for reader comments, not a dumping ground for pasting and recycling opinions from any internst site that strikes your fancy.

    Now you, as someone who refuses to do his own thinking (to the point where you condemn things without seeing or reading them) you of course Have to truckle in other people's opinions. Apparently you don't have any of your own; you just have your opinions of someone else's opinions. That's fine, but people who read your stuff might actually get the crazy idea that you knew what you were talking about, and not just parroting someone else's ideas.

    So, instead of pasting in your hefty blocks of text, we let you post a link. You DO know how links works, right? You are able to post them, no?

    WE were the ones that LOUDLY said this war was a stupid fucking idea. WE were the ones that stood up and marched against it, and spoke truth to power, in the millions.

    posted by bob/new gal

    You wouldn't have the link to the you tube video that shows you actually marching, do you?

    Watch out Broadsword... We are dealing with people who deal with dissent like Stalin did.

    Posted by: Bill O'lielly at March 12, 2008 12:55 PM
    ---------
    Stalin edited posts on blogs?

    No Stalin executed people.. Johnny Two Cents and Bob Cox in between getting checks from News Corp delete accounts of people who disagree with them too vehemently.

    I don't fear cowards, Bill. Thanks, though.

    Here's some links to the protest marches, olby, you sad narcing whelp:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHGKPk0enVI

    Maybe you can pick me out of the crowd, loser.

    Dumb question for Beck to be asking but he is about his critics.

    If your going to criticize his question, at least be honest about the whole thing.
    Keith distorted the facts to "fit his agenda."
    If you're only going to criticize the people you disagree with you should at least get the whole facts straight, if you don't you're just making yourself look like you're on a witch hunt.

    Keith uses many of these tricks to try get news media personalities fired, because the actual job of reporting a news story is above his head.
    It seems as if he only wants people with his views to be on news TV, and he wants to censor the rest. Not very liberal or democratic is he.

    And I'm wondering why more people don't bring up the fact that Keith's voice sounds cartoonish.
    I've seen him being interviewed on C-Span and other networks and his voice sounds a different then it does on his show. Which again tends me to believe that his show is a series of comedy sketches that belong on Comedy Central.

    And if this poster was actually smart enough to understand my post, he would have understood that I wasn't really defending Olbermann at all.....I was attacking the argument of someone un-American enough to think he knows how someone must think and feel in order to be a "true American".

    Posted by: Mike at March 12, 2008 3:22 AM


    Downright funny. Just our daily dose.

    I wouldn't delete your account, BOL. Every time you wish for someone to die, it's comedy gold. Manna from heaven. Olbyloons exposed for what they really are.


    So, you're either totally self-deluded, or a willful liar.

    Which is it?
    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 12:16 PM


    Are those the choices for the evil people who disagree with you and some of the other denizens on your Cartoon Planet, Caped Crusader Bobo?

    Here is the conversation with Russert that was referred to in the clip of Cheney's interview on CNBC in 2004. I add some *** for emphasis:

    From Meet The Press December 9, 01:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/news-speeches/speeches/
    vp20011209.html

    RUSSERT: Let me turn to Iraq. ****When you were last on this program, September 16, five days after the attack on our country, I asked you whether there was any evidence that Iraq was involved in the attack and you said no.*****

    Since that time, a couple of articles have appeared which I want to get you to react to. The first: The Czech interior minister said today that an Iraqi intelligence officer met with Mohammed Atta, one of the ringleaders of the September 11 terrorists attacks on the United States, just five months before the synchronized hijackings and mass killings were carried out.

    And this from James Woolsey, former CIA director: ``We know that at Salman Pak, in the southern edge of Baghdad, five different eye witnesses--three Iraqi defectors and two American U.N. inspectors--have said, and now there are aerial photographs to show it, a Boeing 707 that was used for training of hijackers, including non-Iraqi hijackers, trained very secretly to take over airplanes with knives.''

    And we have photographs. As you can see that little white speck, and there it is.

    RUSSERT: The plane on the ground in Iraq used to train non-Iraqi hijackers.

    Do you still believe there is no evidence that Iraq was involved in September 11?

    CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that's been pretty well confirmed, that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.

    Now, what the purpose of that was, what transpired between them, we simply don't know at this point. But that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue.
    -------------------------------------------

    That's it? That's the smoking gun that would prove the Administration didn't care if their own suspicions about Iraq were true or not and tried to sell it REGARDLESS?

    Subsequent to Dec. 9, 01. There is information that the Czech info might be erroneous because Atta was in Virginia Beach at the time he was accused of being in Prague.

    THEN there are more reports that Atta was not in Virginia Beach (renting a car), there were no records that place Atta in the U.S. at the time he was accused on meeting with Saddam in Prague.
    http://www.slate.com/id/2091354/

    This seemed to give more credence to story and this is probably why Cheney made the "pretty well confirmed" statement. Reread Russert's question to Cheney. Listen to the tenor of the question that RUSSERT, himself asked Cheney in light of what was thought AT THE TIME.

    Again, should he have said this. No. Did he believe it. Yes.

    Did he back off it and admit it was still unconfirmed but out there in the Meet The Press interview of Sept, 03. Yes.

    Could it have the impact of making a majority of people STILL to this day believe that Saddam was directly involved with 9/11. Still no. The fact that Saddam was a bad guy with a history (not to mention that for whatever reason...we removed him from power after 9/11) managed to create this perception in the non-political junkie public-- the majority in other words.

    Glen Beck is as much of a journalist as Chef Boyardee is a Italian chef.

    Posted by: Bill O'lielly at March 12, 2008 11:53 AM

    Actually, Chef Boyardee was an Italian chef.
    He was the head chef at the Plaza Hotel in New York. He catered Woodrow Wilson's second marriage. So I guess that means Beck is a pretty good journalist or a least better than Keith.

    So, you're saying he didn't realize that he was lying to achieve a political objective? That his intentions were honorable and good?

    Well, the paving stones on the way to hell are made of good intentions.

    That assumes that he wasn't just lying to get his way.

    That strains credulity at best.

    Please see the links in my previous post; if it was JUST Cheney making that kind of lie, JUST ONCE, I'd be on board with your justification. However, it wasn't just him, now was it?

    I think you know that.

    And...it wasn't just once, now was it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2idAx8jmdJU&feature=related

    That's an eleven part series. You should probably watch the whole thing.

    So, you're saying he didn't realize that he was lying to achieve a political objective? That his intentions were honorable and good?

    Well, the paving stones on the way to hell are made of good intentions.

    That assumes that he wasn't just lying to get his way.

    That strains credulity at best.

    Please see the links in my previous post; if it was JUST Cheney making that kind of lie, JUST ONCE, I'd be on board with your justification. However, it wasn't just him, now was it?

    I think you know that.
    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 1:24 PM


    Anything that would argue that Cheney isn't Darth Vader with a pacemaker, strains your credulity, Bobo, that's beside the fact.

    However, you've offered up this video as proof of Mike's content that the public perception about Saddam and 9/11 is what it is because of a conspiracy of the Bush Administration.

    Try addressing the arguments I've made against your conclusions about the video, rather merely saying... "Is too!" and "You know there's more!"....

    Wolverine: "Mike, you know what I meant hen I said un-American so lets cut through the crap about what I meant. I remember reading on this site somewhere about how you served in the armed forces, and if that is so then it makes it that much harder to come back at you, as any American who has served deserves the utmost respect."

    Yes Wolverine, I definitely served in the Armed Forces, but I don't see where that gives me any special priviledges. The only reason I have ever mentioned serving in the military was when it may added perspective to any argument I may have been trying to make at the time.

    I was a veteran during a time in which veterans were not respected the way they are today, THAT is certainly a positive change from the seventies to today...... However, in those days, many, if not most adult American males were probably veterans, so no one really thought much about it or placed you on a pedestal because of it.

    That said, I feel that having seen and lived a similar period in American history wihen a controversial war caused excessive diviseness gives me some perspective on what is happening today that someone younger may not appreciate.

    In those days, we also had our so-called anti-war "traitors" who had their patriotism called into question for speaking out for what they belived was right. A favorite saying of the time was; "America, love it or leave it"......In my opinion, there are more parallels today with that period than there are differences.

    My point is simply this: Believe what you feel is right, but DON'T make the mistake of questioning someone's patriotism because they don't believe what you believe....not even Keith Olbermann's.

    Watch out Broadsword... We are dealing with people who deal with dissent like Stalin did.

    Posted by: Bill O'lielly at March 12, 2008 12:55 PM
    ---------
    Stalin edited posts on blogs?

    Posted by: PoorBaby at March 12, 2008 1:06 PM
    ---
    No Stalin executed people.. Johnny Two Cents and Bob Cox in between getting checks from News Corp delete accounts of people who disagree with them too vehemently.

    Posted by: Bill O'lielly at March 12, 2008 1:12 PM
    ------
    let's see so "deleting accounts" on a free blog that has no registration is tantamount to the execution of millions of people? ...oh and by the way, I still see Broad and BOL and loiny and numerous others still seem to exist, so the hatchet here must not fall too fast...can the same be said for DU, Kos and the like (who require registration)...NOPE!!!

    Try addressing the arguments I've made against your conclusions about the video, rather merely saying... "Is too!" and "You know there's more!"....

    Posted by: Cecelia at March 12, 2008 1:33 PM


    Afterall, there's a million Blue blogs out there with a gazillion tenuous associations between every Bush-Cheney utterance and the desire to start a war in the Middle East for Halliburton.

    Is your cut-n-paste finger getting arthritic or something?

    What you're doing right now, accusing me of cutting and pasting...is what we call 'projection'.

    You *know* there's more, you're just loath to admit it. It would make you look like the tool you are.

    I've annotated that with links. Try viewing them.

    And, I'll re-post this by cutting and pasting, because you clearly missed it the first time:


    "Your credibility is GONE, your philosophy is BANKRUPTED, and you have BUGGERED this nation in the name of jingoism and unbridled greed.

    You have some kind of nerve accusing liberals of being anti-American.

    WE were the ones that LOUDLY said this war was a stupid fucking idea. WE were the ones that stood up and marched against it, and spoke truth to power, in the millions.

    WE were the people who spent some time considering the idea that borrowing a trillion from the Chinese to defecit-finance a tax cut during an unnecessary war was the most fiscally irresponsible thing that this nation HAS EVER DONE.

    YOU are the ones that got down on your knees...and serviced power. YOU are the ones that let fear and paranoia be your guide.

    YOU are the ones that are again and again suckered in to the idea that someone wrapped in the flag, pounding on a bible is to be trusted, despite all evidence to the contrary.

    YOU are responsible for this mess. Reading your 11th hour justifications for the incompetence, secrecy, corruption and arrogance of this 'administration' makes me want to puke.

    You're not a patriot. You're the opposite.

    You wouldn't know patriotism if it bit you in the ass, and sweetheart, in November it's going to."

    I would like to meet you Cecelia. You seem like a very intelligent person. What carnival will you be working this Saturday?

    JJ, how long have you been a lying olbyloon?

    ROTFLMAO. Carnie freak, indeed. Small hands.

    THIS THREAD REMAINS OPEN!

    So, Mr. Sucks has a reason for continuing to live.

    Maybe you can pick me out of the crowd, loser.

    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 1:14 PM


    The point was you have never marched. Nice try, though.

    In those days, we also had our so-called anti-war "traitors" who had their patriotism called into question for speaking out for what they belived was right. A favorite saying of the time was; "America, love it or leave it"......In my opinion, there are more parallels today with that period than there are differences.

    My point is simply this: Believe what you feel is right, but DON'T make the mistake of questioning someone's patriotism because they don't believe what you believe....not even Keith Olbermann's.

    Posted by: Mike at March 12, 2008 1:35 PM


    Well, according to you, Mike, veterans don't deserve special privileges but they sure seem to deserve some special authority, IF they have an anti-war perspective (unlike the Iraq War soldier CJ, who was mentioned in March 10th thead)...

    When you mention that Vietnam Era soldiers were NOT respected the way they and other soldiers are today, it might be worthwhile to make the connection that they were not respected because they were considered what was then, the anti-war movement's own particular label for "unamerican" (so extensively portrayed in the literature and cinema of that era) i.e. ---blood thirsty, maniacal, corrupt, baby killers.

    The anti-war movement of this era has progressed from labeling soldiers these things, to merely accusing supporters of the war of being these things.

    Sort of makes Wolverine's comment about "real Americans" sound pretty innocuous...

    Cecelia is here. The carnival apparently opened today.

    Cecelia: "Well if you can tell me the difference between suggesting some people aren't "true" Americans and some of the rhetoric you have used that suggests that some of your ideological opponents are hate mongers, largely uneducated, selfish, and uncaring of those in need, blood thirsty, and robotic."

    I've already told you the 'difference', even though you choose to pretend that I haven't.

    First off, I challenge some of your characterizations because I don't believe I have really gone that far. That said, most of such alledged characterizations I have made in the past were in direct RESPONSE to similar characterizations made against me by other posters....but I've already explained this to you before.

    I have NEVER questioned YOUR patriotism, nor have I called you any of the things you claimed above. The fact that I have sometimes tried 'tit for tat' as a response in the past is your only argument here.

    That said, and if you've failed to notice, I have pretty much curtailed using that approach in responding to bombastic posts....partially as a deference to you....and partially from a realization that the tactic will always be lost on those whom it is being aimed at anyway.....but then ill likely be taken offense by someone else whom it wasn't aimed at.

    You last scolded me for 'insulting' Cee, while completely ignoring the FACT that most of HIS posts are chock FULL of insults aimed at anyone who doesn't share his Neoconish views. That certainly left me shaking my head a little.

    But hey....you can't please everyone.

    So sorry, olby, but I did. In DC, in LA, in SF. Almost made it to one in NYC, but work got in the way.

    You didn't EVER think this war was a bad idea, or do a damned thing about it. The courage of your convictions, evidently, is limited to what you can type.

    Were it otherwise, you'd be in Basra, right now.

    So, nice try, pal.

    'insulting' Cee
    ^^^^^
    That's possible. How, pray tell?

    Mike,

    You must understand that these people aren't patriots, they're partisans. They're not so much interested in what's good for the country, as they are in preserving their very tenuously structured dogmatic ideology.

    The bad news for them is that it's a house of cards.

    Non sibi sed patriae.

    Broadsword

    And, I'll re-post this by cutting and pasting, because you clearly missed it the first time:


    "Your credibility is GONE, your philosophy is BANKRUPTED, and you have BUGGERED this nation in the name of jingoism and unbridled greed.

    You have some kind of nerve accusing liberals of being anti-American.

    WE were the ones that LOUDLY said this war was a stupid fucking idea. WE were the ones that stood up and marched against it, and spoke truth to power, in the millions.

    WE were the people who spent some time considering the idea that borrowing a trillion from the Chinese to defecit-finance a tax cut during an unnecessary war was the most fiscally irresponsible thing that this nation HAS EVER DONE.

    YOU are the ones that got down on your knees...and serviced power. YOU are the ones that let fear and paranoia be your guide.

    YOU are the ones that are again and again suckered in to the idea that someone wrapped in the flag, pounding on a bible is to be trusted, despite all evidence to the contrary.

    YOU are responsible for this mess. Reading your 11th hour justifications for the incompetence, secrecy, corruption and arrogance of this 'administration' makes me want to puke.

    You're not a patriot. You're the opposite.

    You wouldn't know patriotism if it bit you in the ass, and sweetheart, in November it's going to."

    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 1:46 PM


    "Missed it the first time"?? I've seen it and a thousand formulations of it a thousand times before.

    Restraint not being the left's middle name, thanks for refraining from accusing us of not being "real americans". It's suprising that you were insightful enough (for the purpose of THIS discussion) to refrain from the usual practice of mentioning that it's a small percentage of people who still support the war, in an attempt to suggest that welll..... we aren't REAL Americans.

    As we are now being told....THAT would jbe beyond the pale and just one step too too far... :D

    Cecelia is here. The carnival apparently opened today.

    Posted by: Jimmy Jack the Juggling Clown at March 12, 2008 2:00 PM


    Oh, you don't wait until my presence to perform. Any ole audience will do...

    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 2:06 PM
    ---------------
    Seriously...there is no way you are going there are you...have you seen the posts by the likes of you at Huffpo, du, kos, et al?

    oh and BTW...please you or BOL respond to:
    Posted by: PoorBaby at March 12, 2008 1:35 PM

    Mike, well again it's hard for me to come down on a veteran even though you have modestly said that you shouldn't be put on a pedestal, but when it comes to questioning somebody's patriotism who sounds exactly like Osama bin laden I think that is where even the most naive person could draw the line.

    If you listen to olbermann and then read what bin laden has said previously there's not an ounce of difference in what they have said about president Bush.

    His hatred for Bush, just like bin laden's, borders on pure evil along with the lies he comes up with everyday to justify this hatred makes it very easy for me to easily identify olbermann as an anti-American.

    This isn't about one man's opinion vs another, as it's simply about stating the obvious. Saying that I don't have the right to question his patriotism is like saying the American GI's during WWII didn't have the right to question Mata Hari's patriotism for America.

    If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it doesn't take any real intelligence to say that it is a duck.

    Hitler got the same diffenders also while he was shooting his rhetorical bs, and the danger of a "man" like olbermann is that he also sits on his thrown unimpeded (like any opposing view is a violation to his dictatorship) while trashing everything that is good about America, while in the process has gotten many followers along the way. Not unlike Hitler or bin laden.

    Yeah, I have no qualms about calling olbermann an anti-American and truly believe the traitor should be stopped before it's too late. They laughed at Hitler at the start, but because they believed in free speech at the time saw nothing wrong in what he preached, and the rest is history.

    He's a subversive in the worst way and feeds on the nations insecurities just like Hitler did, and his forum is much larger than Hitler's little beer hall gatherings, and therefore much more dangerous.

    People who are born anywhere in this country are 'real Americans'. That's it. That's all it takes.

    Real Citizens take it a step further, and give of themselves to serve this country. That can manifest itself in being a civil employee, being in the Peace Corps, serving in the Military, being a Cop or volunteer Firefighter...what have you.

    You need to get a grip; the people who have been doing most of the questioning of people's patriotism of late....are self-described Conservatives.

    I would put the shoe on the other foot, these days, and suggest (as above) that anybody that stood by and did nothing, anybody who blindly trusted BushCo, anybody who questioned MY patriotism for questioning the wisdom of getting involved in this inarguable clusterfuck of a war...has done this country a grievous wrong.

    That means you.

    You last scolded me for 'insulting' Cee, while completely ignoring the FACT that most of HIS posts are chock FULL of insults aimed at anyone who doesn't share his Neoconish views. That certainly left me shaking my head a little.

    But hey....you can't please everyone.
    Posted by: Mike at March 12, 2008 2:00 PM


    Well, in the midst of lecturing Wolverine perhaps the tenor of your posts should have been that you used to talk that way but haYou last scolded me for 'insulting' Cee, while completely ignoring the FACT that most of HIS posts are chock FULL of insults aimed at anyone who doesn't share his Neoconish views. That certainly left me shaking my head a little.

    But hey....you can't please everyone.
    Posted by: Mike at March 12, 2008 2:00 PM

    Actually, you could have pleased many more people if in the midst of comparing Wolverine to Archie Bunker, you had mentioned that...though the devil made you do it (as usual....) YOU have used such rhetoric in the past (though not against me..whoppeee!) and subsequently decided to curtail it for the reasons you mention.

    That would have gone a long way in pleasing most people and would have certainly made you sound less like a self-righteous hypocrite for those of us who have been reading your stuff for quite awhile...


    Wolverine, here's $0.25 - buy a clue.

    Please tell us all how Olberman is like Hitler again?

    Is it because he's...calling for the eradication of a demonized religious minority, is he?

    He's using jingoistic rhetoric to further an expansion of empire, is he?

    His position is that government should serve the whim of business, is it?

    Oh, wait; that's YOU GUYS that do that stuff.

    You know, here's a clue you can have for free:

    In Nazi Germany, if a reporter/commentator was on the radio in 1939 criticizing Hitler's banging the drums for war, he wouldn't be on the air.

    He'd have been shot in the head.

    So, in this comparison...guess who Hitler is.

    That goes to the idea that Bush isn't as bad as Hitler, and I'd agree with that, of course.

    If you include the 1 million dead and 5 million refugees that our little adventure in Iraq has created, he's something like 1/20th as bad.

    I would put the shoe on the other foot, these days, and suggest (as above) that anybody that stood by and did nothing, anybody who blindly trusted BushCo, anybody who questioned MY patriotism for questioning the wisdom of getting involved in this inarguable clusterfuck of a war...has done this country a grievous wrong.

    That means you.
    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 2:21 PM


    You're merely saying what you've ALWAYS argued. You're simply repeating your mantra that people who disagree with your position on the war do so because they are Bush automatons and therefore in opposition to the American Spirit, ie unamerican.

    Your entire closet is filled with identical pairs of shoes.

    That about sums it up, yes. Cece can learn, apparently.

    Shocker.

    So, what's your job at the carnival again?

    "Carnie". I like that as your nickname. I think it will stick.

    Was I questioning your patriotism narrowstick? You sound a little defensive there. Having a little doubt about your own
    patriotism maybe?

    This was all about the anti-American olbermann, but if you are one to defend him and his lies, then I guess you could be brought into that group too.

    Don't agree with the war. Fine, but ask yourself if it was a democratic president how would you feel?

    That's my point, which is obviously lost on you with every post from any person who backs their president. You will attack president Bush at all lengths, and for the slightest of mistakes (mis-pronouncing words, his intelligence, ad nauseum) but if there was a democratic president I assure you that your feellings will be different whereas my would be the same.

    Yes, I'll back whoever is the president, black, white, old, republican, democrat, doesn't matter, because to me he will be MY president of MY country.

    Blind patriotism you say? Maybe, but who gives a damn, because it is where I live and where I choose to live, and as long as I know the more Americans who back the president the stronger the country will be.

    Ever been on a team in anything narrowstick? I mean anything, and to you to backstab the coach/manager/another player or the team itself is what you would call a team player? And, in your way of thinking to question your team members makes for a more solid team? Do you really believe that?

    Well, I can assure you that with that way of thinking, your way of thinking, the team will go down. Fast and furious. It's a fact. Live with it or go on bad mouthing your country.

    If that's what you need to make you feel better then do it, while the rest of us will go on defending the country and its president.

    Have you always been such a wimp, or only since you came onto this board? Did your mother not breastfeed you? Tell you daddy, and let it all out.

    That about sums it up, yes. Cece can learn, apparently.

    Shocker.

    So, what's your job at the carnival again?

    "Carnie". I like that as your nickname. I think it will stick.
    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 2:42 PM


    Glad you've come around. Therefore your contention that your views are something different and are a response to having had your own patriotism questioned, is simply bunk.

    I like "Carney" and you shall be my little Bobo the Barking Seal... Toss your little ball, Bobo! :D

    to 2:32

    That was AFTER Hitler got in power (1939) you fool.

    How do you think Hitler got in power fool? He started out with his little beer hall rants before a few people with no opposing viewpoints at all. He stood on his little soapbox preaching to the few about the horrors of the Jews and communists.

    Slowly, as he was preaching the few turned into many, as all his speeches were about how horrible the present governmnet was because they weren't doing anything about these Jews and communists, and he was reaching out to the desperate and deprived people.

    Soon the many turned into the masses, and his lies were not only defended but the defenders were also spewing the same kind of lies that he spread, but the bottom line with all his speeches and rhetoric was that there wasn't ONE opposing view to what he said.

    Even then when there was, he would then attack the few newspapers that had the nerve to challenge his views (olbermann attacking O'Reilly every night comes to mind) until those newspapers were finally eradicated (1937).

    It took him a total of 13 years to accomplish this you fool, and he did it all basically with word of mouth as opposed to the format that Olbermann has everyday.

    Attacking somebody with proof is another thing, but what I have seen with olbermann is that he is the closest thing to a beginning Hitler that I have ever seen:

    Lies upon lies about the government. False statements across the board. Attacking any opposing views without opposition.

    Will we ever see him go for any political position? I doubt it, and that's not what I'm saying, as all I'm saying is that his rhetoric is no different than when Hitler started out. Dangerous and anti-American.

    That about sums it up, yes. Cece can learn, apparently.

    Shocker.

    So, what's your job at the carnival again?

    "Carnie". I like that as your nickname. I think it will stick.
    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 2:42 PM

    Broadsword, I think I will call you Colonel Clusterfu*k. This is coming from someone who admires a person who killed 6 million Jews. Piece of s*it.

    "Yes, I'll back whoever is the president, black, white, old, republican, democrat, doesn't matter, because to me he will be MY president of MY country."

    Somehow, I doubt that. Somehow, I've got the idea that if Hillary is elected, you will attack her. Same goes for Obama.

    You know, like you probably attacked Bill during Kosovo. Such is likely your support for the commander-in-chief in a time of war.

    Get. This. Straight:

    Blind patriotism is NOT a virtue. At the end of the day, it makes you a sucker:

    Try questioning authority sometime. You might learn something about the nature of actual Patriotism, and your responsibilities as a citizen of this nation.

    Questioning authority is not only our right, it's our duty. Otherwise, you'll find that you quickly end up with a bunch of criminal jackasses, who hold themselves as somehow above questioning, holding the reigns of power.

    You know, like what we have now.

    Team sports; how did I *know* you'd want to go there? The football mentality; "If we take your part of the field, and push you out of the endzone, THAT'S A WIN!", or, "Winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing".

    Here's something for you to ponder; let's say this world has changed since 1950, and that the recipe for a win is constituted by something that benefits everybody, not just your team. That foreign policy is not a football game.

    Perhaps you can noodle here for all of us upon how a martial mentality, a team-sports mindset....might have a bit of a downside.

    How might it be that grabbing the other guy's territory on a given Sunday could, perhaps, be a Pyrrhic victory at best?

    I don't bad-mouth my country, sir. Try thinking of it this way:

    "The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair."

    (H.L. Menken)

    And for the record, Wolv, you're not defending the Country; you're just defending self-interested power-grabbing whores who couldn't give less of a shit about you.


    I guess I hit the nail on the head with that whole comparison of Bush to Hitler. You seem pretty upset.

    Here's another clue for you, Carnie:

    I'm Jewish.

    I am of no doubt you aren't.

    Admire Hitler? You're *funny*.

    Try again.

    Wolverine on Olbermann: "He's a subversive in the worst kind of way and feeds off the Nation's insecurities just like Hitler did."

    You just summed up the way I feel about the man who just happens to be the current president of the United States....almost to a "T".

    Does that make me 'unpatriotic'?

    You see, unlike you....I feel Olbermann is filling the roll the medai SHOULD have filled prior to the occupation of Iraq. The media let us down then by going along meekly like a lame, castrated little ducky....afraid to question anything for fear of being branded as unpatriotic....and we are all the poorer for it today.

    You see Wolverine...we ALL have our own personal little Hitler analogies, but one of the first things you learn in many philosophy and debate classes is.....not to go there.

    Questioning and abusing that right is where we differ. I'll ask reasonable questions, and respect reasonable answers, but in your world if it's a republican president no amount of reasonable answers will be good enough for you.

    You have a distrust that oozes through all your responses whereas I don't. This is just as it is. You have in the past also hated on Christians, and no matter who the upcoming president is he or she will be a Christian, which tells me you will attack them too.

    The big difference between you and me is that I will err on the side of my president while you will err on the side of his enemies.

    That is a fact and indisputable from what you have posted before, and as for you example of why a radical is more patriotic than most you'll have to ask the Chicago 7, the black militants, SLA, Ted Klusinski, why they were more patriotic than me.

    As for Kosovo, sorry but I was behind the president there, and would be again because even though I didn't think it a wonderful move by Bill, it was what my president who was elected thought was best for my country. I didn't vote for Bill, but I supported him through and through.

    Yes, whoever is our next president I will support 100%

    "Will we ever see him go for any political position? I doubt it, and that's not what I'm saying, as all I'm saying is that his rhetoric is no different than when Hitler started out. Dangerous and anti-American."

    Sorry, Wolvie, his rhetoric is entirely different. As I've previously indicated:

    "Is it because he's...calling for the eradication of a demonized religious minority, is he?

    He's using jingoistic rhetoric to further an expansion of empire, is he?

    His position is that government should serve the whim of business, is it?

    Oh, wait; that's YOU GUYS that do that stuff."

    So, how is ANY of what Olbermann points out like what Hitler said? Hitler was a disgruntled soldier and politico, Olby is neither. Hitler got thrown in jail for inciting insurrection....Olby?

    Your comparison isn't just weak; it's entirely fallacious.

    Ever hear of Godwin's Law? Maybe it's past time you learned about it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    Ah Mike, I just can't argue with you. I keep on seeing "armed forces" and your responses are always polite so I just can't.

    I respect the military too much to even think of attacking you (I have two good friends of mine from work who just came back from Iraq) and I see them, my father and every service man and woman everytime I see your name.

    I should have them respond to you as they feel like I do, but their too polite too to even bother.

    Good luck to you.

    Ok, wolvie; I'll take you at your word re supporting the office-holder. That would make you a rare bird.

    Cece; owe you an apology - I realized it wasn't you I'd upset. I'm sure you didn't call me a piece of *sh*t*, because you don't sling that way as a rule.

    "Questioning and abusing that right is where we differ."

    Where, exactly, have I abused that right? Ah, nowhere, I think.

    Look, the Menken quote was to put things in context. I'm SICK of being labeled un-patriotic, and I WILL NOT stand for it.

    The take-away part of that quote, for you, should have been "He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched."

    It is this very debauchery, ever present in this administration, that I cannot brook.

    What's funny and sad at the same time is 'broadsword' has claimed in the past to be a teacher of some sort.

    "Is it because he's...calling for the eradication of a demonized religious minority, is he?---Bush nor myself has done this, he asked that people not attack muslims here in amrica after 9/11...its not the religion, its the guys twisting it to their own end (find me in the Koran where is tells a parent to strap explosives to their kid and then run out into public and pull the trigger)...heck, most liberals if you surf the net seem to want to get rid of religion altother

    He's using jingoistic rhetoric to further an expansion of empire, is he? Not Bush...I have not seen one piece of evidence (even from hard core leftists as yourself) that suggest that Iraq become the 51st state

    His position is that government should serve the whim of business, is it?
    Not Bush, however, you leftists seem to want to make the government the only business eh comrade

    Oh, wait; that's YOU GUYS that do that stuff."
    ---I think you will see you were incorrect, now go have a nice day

    3:27...(My reponses below yours)

    Sorry, Wolvie, his rhetoric is entirely different. As I've previously indicated:

    "Is it because he's...calling for the eradication of a demonized religious minority, is he?

    Olbermann seems hell bent to attack the Christian right, and although the majority it still is an attack on a religion.

    He's using jingoistic rhetoric to further an expansion of empire, is he?

    Oh, I think he's expanding his own belief's within his own empire for sure. The radical left empire. Ever heard him say ANYTHING positive about one republican? ANYTHING at all? On the other hand, would you care to talk about all the lies he's spread about those same republicans?


    His position is that government should serve the whim of business, is it?

    It's still early in his career, and like I said it took Hitler 13 years to get to his throne.


    Oh, wait; that's YOU GUYS that do that stuff."

    So, how is ANY of what Olbermann points out like what Hitler said? Hitler was a disgruntled soldier and politico, Olby is neither....olbermann is certainly a disgruntled anti-American, and only time will tell what his full agenda is. We now know the whole history of why Hitler did and said those things as his life has been dissected up and down, and who is to say what we'll find with Olbermann?

    Hitler got thrown in jail for inciting insurrection....Olby?

    Yes he did, but that was from a government who had just lost a major war and they were forced to do something for fear that his rhetoric would bring down the powers that be upon Germany. We have no such burdens now, and actually encourage freedom of speech, but where does this freedom turn from one mans opinion to one mans fuel to start a fire?

    Your comparison isn't just weak; it's entirely fallacious.

    I believe my comparison is thoroughly justified, and just like the uninformed during Hitler's time, Olbermann lies and smoke could cause this country serious harm.

    Ever hear of Godwin's Law? Maybe it's past time you learned about it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    Posted by: at March 12, 2008 3:27 PM

    Justification, Wolvie, is a lie you tell yourself.

    Broadsword I understand where you're coming from, and although I know we will be debating again in the future on some other point, I will leave you now with just this thought that I do not believe at all that we have been tricked, bamboozled, fooled or whatever into this war with Iraq.

    I think it was a decision by the many (senators, congress and other countries) who thought it the correct thing to do. That they had no agenda's other than to oust a tyrant who they were told had WMD's.

    Also a tyrant who had gone against the treaty set down for him after Desert Storm over 27 times, and one who was brutally murdering thousands.

    For that I was behind my president, and although you obviously disagreed with that move, I would not consider you unpatriotic. Just wrong, but in no way are you an anti-American.

    "The radical left empire"; hilarious! That one goes up on the fridge tonight...

    Tell us all, please, what is the 'radical left empire' comprised of? This should be good for a laugh...

    ah now Broadsword I tried to be nice to you, and then you come back to calling me a liar.

    I do not by any means consider myself a liar. Never have, and never will believe that. I wholeheartedly believe that this man Olbermann is very dangerous, and it has nothing to do with his tan, weight gain, young girlfriend or anything else that has ever been said about his personal life, as I've never commented here once on any of those things.

    It's all because of what he says and to how he goes about what he says. His lies are overwhelming at times, and once again I feel his agenda is not only to make himself look good, but to make America look bad.

    It is what I believe in my very soul because of what I see him do everyday. No need to lie about that.

    Thanks for that, Wolvie.

    I would expand on what you said:

    I think the reason we got in to this mess was fear. People who responded in a cowardly and craven manner to the fear that actually did permeate this country after 9/11.

    There were two kinds of craven cowardice in that aftermath; the people who bullied their way in to finishing what they saw as unfinished American business, eg, invading Iraq (read: the Neocons), and the people who were so cowed by fear or the idea that they might be perceived as 'weak on terror' that they completely capitulated to the wholesale demagoguery (read: spineless Dems).

    What we had here was an ill-advised power-grab, and ensuing clusterfuck, IMHO.

    I guess the difference between us, Wolvie, is that you're still giving the demagogues the benefit of the doubt. I know with certainty that we were lied in to this war, just as we have been lied in to other wars.

    Wolverine on Olbermann: "He's a subversive in the worst kind of way and feeds off the Nation's insecurities just like Hitler did."

    You just summed up the way I feel about the man who just happens to be the current president of the United States....almost to a "T".


    Transaltion: It's ok for Olby to be that way, but, not ok for Bush.

    You see Wolverine...we ALL have our own personal little Hitler analogies, but one of the first things you learn in many philosophy and debate classes is.....not to go there.

    Posted by: Mike at March 12, 2008 3:24 PM


    Then why have you "went there" on several occasions? Our second dose of the day.

    An empire (Harry reid) that says while in the middle of a war that we have lost. Is that funny to you?

    An empire ( left media) that emphasizes an incident during war about some soldiers putting uderpants over the enemies head which while airing it all over the world caused many of our own servicemen to be in harms way.

    An empire (Olbermann) who has compared our president during war to Hitler gathering more sympathy for the islamist fascists.

    ..and if all of this makes you laugh then I feel sorry for you, and those are just s few of the most obvious examples

    I know with certainty that we were lied in to this war, just as we have been lied in to other wars.


    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 4:13 PM


    Is that what ward churchill told you?

    Wolvie - sorry! I did try to make nice with you, too! See above!

    Not calling you a liar, just would find a definition of the left's 'empire' amusing :)

    Broadsworth...Until we meet again...Later

    "An empire (Harry reid) that says while in the middle of a war that we have lost. Is that funny to you?"

    Nah, that's not funny, it's just simply correct; how is Iraq a win for us? How is it *ever* gonna be a win?

    Don't tell me you've bought in to yet another four-word slogan designed specifically to insure that you don't ask too many questions about what's actually going on in Iraq....you know....'The surge is working'. It *can't* be that simple for you.

    "An empire ( left media) that emphasizes an incident during war about some soldiers putting uderpants over the enemies head which while airing it all over the world caused many of our own servicemen to be in harms way."

    Um, the media has been consolidated in to five or six companies now. GE, Viacom, ABC/Capcities, CBS, TimeWarner and of course, Fox. That happened in 1996, when the TCA (Telecommunications Act) became law.

    Their messaging is no more liberal than the giant, conservative corporations that own them will allow.

    The basic idea of a "Liberal Media" is a....myth. Sure, there's liberals in the ranks of reporters, but reporting is a dispassionate exercise when done correctly, and often the exercise of reporting leads to truth that doesn't shine such a good light on movement conservatives. As Colbert so aptly put it, 'The truth has a well-known liberal bias".

    Trust me; General Electric, makers of nuclear power plants, jet engines, and gatling guns are NOT liberals. They have their own little tv outlet called 'NBC', by the by.

    They don't give a shit about ideology; just money. If a liberal network (MSNBC) starts making money, getting ratings, they'll go with that. They're soulless cash-grubbing whores, the lot of them.

    Here's a really, really good guide to the current state of media ownership in the country:

    http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart.php

    "An empire (Olbermann) who has compared our president during war to Hitler gathering more sympathy for the islamist fascists."

    I believe what you're thinking of is called Caliphism. Not Fascism.

    Classically, Fascism is the confluence of state and corporate interests. What you're thinking of is the confluence of state and church (or mosque) interests. There's a major difference.

    Hasn't it ever bother you that 'Islamo-Fascism' is a term you first heard a couple of years ago?

    "..and if all of this makes you laugh then I feel sorry for you, and those are just s few of the most obvious examples."

    No, dude; this conversation, while enlightening, is making me weep for the future of this country, that I love so much.

    I can't diffuse lies faster than Murdoch and Ailes, and their masters in the administration can make them.

    "Transaltion: "It's ok for Olby to be that way, but, not ok for Bush."

    Why don't we discuss that on that fantasy day in which Olby becomes President of the United States.

    "but reporting is a dispassionate exercise when done correctly"

    too bad KO can't seem to do it correctly then...as well as most of the MSM

    Hasn't it ever bother you that 'Islamo-Fascism' is a term you first heard a couple of years ago?
    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 4:42 PM

    Does it bother you that Tivo is a term you first heard a couple of years ago

    Nobody uses the idea of 'Fighting TIVO over there, so we don't have to fight TIVO over here' as the justification for killing a whole lot of people.

    For nothing more than a few drops of rapidly depleting oil.

    No, dumb-dumb; this is NOT about 'spreading freedom and democracy'. That's just bloviating rhetoric.

    Hey broadsword in what cities did you march in to protest the war in Bosnia?

    Just wondering.

    Hey broadsword in what cities did you march in to protest the war in Bosnia?

    Just wondering.

    Posted by: yodell at March 12, 2008 5:32 PM

    He was too busy defending the Perjurer-in-Chief. BS is a fraud like all the rest. To BS, peace means no opposition to socialism. That is why there is no peep out of him about his buddy Hugo.

    Well, none. Kosovo was about stopping an active genocide in its tracks.

    Conservatives need to get a clue; as you're so fond of pointing this out - war is a fact of life.

    The good news is that we as a country have a CHOICE about which wars we will engage. Or, if we will engage at all.

    The bad news is that the people currently in charge are a) arrogant and b) greedy.

    Little wonder they placed such a high premium on unquestioning loyalty.

    Iraq was, predictably, a lame, hubristic, *bad* decision.

    I'm not so much against wars per se' as I am against STUPID war. Wars are to be avoided, because they're the ultimate perversion of man....and bra, that used to be a very CONSERVATIVE principal.

    Just ask Ron Paul.

    Get it?

    Think of it this way: Teddy Roosevelt. He wisely understood our national might is best being served by speaking softly and carrying a big stick.

    This administration seems to think our bearing should be 'Shout loudly, and hit anybody you see with the stick'.

    Make no mistake; this war has lowered our standing, the respect other nations have for us. Or, more accurately, for you. We liberals are just along for your badly bungled ride until Jan 20, 2009.

    We never should have let hawk cold warriors back in power in 2000. We'll be paying for their special brand of totally arrogant idiocy for years.

    Stupid and aggressive; yeah. THAT's worked out well for the world.

    Sure, Saddam's gone. That'll be cold comfort when you're unable to pay your mortgage because the dollar collapsed.

    Even less comfort when you realize that bankruptcy protections that might have otherwise kept you from becoming homeless have been legislated out of existence by a Republican congress, and signed in to law by your hero, Bush.

    Won't you be shocked and surprised when you realize that your cap on punitive damages is only $250k now, that you can't seek redress in the courts if your stock broker rips you off, or that you can be detained without hearing, because they went and stripped habeas corpus out of the law in the name of fighting a boogeyman.

    Good luck with all that. Seriously, best of luck.


    A look into the mind of a person who DOES NOT support our troops.

    "An empire (Harry reid) that says while in the middle of a war that we have lost. Is that funny to you?"

    Nah, that's not funny, it's just simply correct; how is Iraq a win for us? How is it *ever* gonna be a win?

    or that you can be detained without hearing, because they went and stripped habeas corpus out of the law in the name of fighting a boogeyman.

    Good luck with all that. Seriously, best of luck.

    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 6:07 PM


    If you are a terrorist caught in a combat situation, you would be correct.

    And factor, seriously, STFU.

    You are of the limited mindset that capitalism can't be socially conscious. Your 'me first, gimme mine' attitude has it's pitfalls, now doesn't it.

    You *really* think socialism is a threat to this country? Are you really that thick?

    We're AMERICANS, and that means making a buck.

    The difference between you and me is that I am in all likelihood much, much smarter than you as regards how to do capitalism properly in the current market environment.

    And, for the record:

    Guys like you think it's ok for us to run roughshod over the world. I do not.

    Guys like you think strip-mining and close-shore drilling are just peachy because enterprise is paramount. I do not.

    Guys like you sit in traffic, burning gas and oil, on the way to a job they could otherwise be doing over the internet. I do not.

    Guys like you think Chavez is more than the petty provacateur that he is. I do not.

    Guys like you are A-OK with the Vice President of the United States still caching checks from his former employer, an oil company, WHILE IN OFFICE. I am not.


    Socialism is like any other set of ideas; some of them are good, some of them are bad.

    Capitalism for it's own sake is saddled with just as many bad qualities as Socialism.

    Maybe more.

    The same thing, of course, goes for the good qualities. Capitalism, perhaps, has more of those, too.

    Socialism, as a construct, definitely has major limitations. It is not, however, without merit.

    It's all about (or should be all about) taking the best qualities from many sets of ideas.

    That's the way forward. Leave the rest behind.

    That's why your rigid adherence to dogmatic thinking is a problem for the world. You categorically refuse to admit that there's ever anything we do wrong, either in business or in the business of government. Therefore, you are incapable of forward movement in your thinking, of progress in your ideals.

    That's currently why we're referred to as "progressive", and you're often referred to as "stubborn and stupid".

    You categorically refuse to admit that there's ever anything we do wrong, either in business or in the business of government.
    Posted by: broadsword at March 12, 2008 6:32 PM

    And you and your party categorically refuse to admit that there is ever anthing we do right. Unless your party is in power. You would make Michelle Obama proud.

    Guys like you are A-OK with the Vice President of the United States still caching checks from his former employer, an oil company, WHILE IN OFFICE. I am not.

    posted by new gal


    Do you an official document stating so?

    Do you HAVE an official document stating so?

    Guys like you sit in traffic, burning gas and oil, on the way to a job they could otherwise be doing over the internet. I do not.
    Posted by: narrownoodle at March 12, 2008 6:32 PM

    You figured me out! I love to sit in traffic. It is why I get up in the morning.

    This thread is now closed!