So are people now going to send KO shoes after all this blows over? He's running this to the ground. At least he's not on Palin...for now that is.

No, No, No, It's all this JackAss Olbermann has to dish out these days.
Anyone notice how much this Idiot, Self Centered, One of a kind MORON is hell bent on going after anyone from FOX? I mean come on now, Keith (Bathtub Boy), is this all you have for your mi-nute audience? I personally am waiting for the day to come when ALL of the other networks and Radio people finally take a stand and gang rape this ASSHOLE. As it is and has been for many years now, Keith IS Orielly's Bitch, Rush's Whore, and Hannity's shoeshine boy.

Lets condense SOCalRightest's last post down to all of the key words he just used:

"jackass Olbermann - idiot - Self Centered - MORON - hell bent - (Bathtub Boy) - mi-nute audience - gang rape - this ASSHOLE - Kieth is O'Rielly's Bitch, Rush's Whore, and Hannity's shoeshine boy."

And that's how it is with you SoCal.......when your posts are shortened so that nothing is left but your inane insults and cursewords, the post remains almost as long as it was originally.

And yet despite all evidence to the contrary, you obviously continue to believe that you have an IQ greater than your age.....and that you are somehow better than the object of your scorn.

IRONY at it's best!

Oh Goody, I woke up Bathtub Boys favorite Butt Monkey MikeH.
Still trying to defend YOUR best bud Olbermann?
MikeH, you have got to be one of the most ignorant, above everyone else, morons on this planet.
Merry Christmas MikeH, I hope someone gets you the help and medical attention that you need, unfortunately the doctors just can't fix STUPID.
Yes, by me posting a brief and to the point essay of your friend Olby, I knew it would bring the bugs out of the woodwork!!!!!
But that's what termites do.
The words I used in my previous post are no worse that the words Olby used against BUSH, so don't give me your crap. How long did it take you to figure out how to spell IQ?
MikeH, you are one of the biggest jokes on this site and we welcome you to keep up your hard work defending Olberwoman and his falling ratings.

Oh and a second thought just for you MikeH,

You stated"And yet despite all evidence to the contrary, you obviously continue to believe that you have an IQ greater than your age.....and that you are somehow better than the object of your scorn."

Geeze, that statement sounds as if you were addressing it to Olbermann. Isn't what Olby does every night, scorn, belittle, ridicule, mock, make up stories that aren't true?
Yes MikeH, you make tons of sense. You're looking for the negative from the RIGHT when you should be looking at your own parties (left) misgivings.

I see it was SoCal's turn today to be Mike H'd. How predictable and ironic. Well not ironic, but I can misuse that word too.

^_^

SoCal: "Oh goody, I woke up Bathtub Boy's favorite Butt Monkey, MikeH"......No, you didn't 'wake me up'. I check in once and a while, but usually I don't comment. However, your particular brand of stupidity is too much fun to resist sometimes.

SoCal: "Still trying to defend YOUR best bud Olbermann?......Actually no, I didn't "defent" Olbermann - all I did was place your own idiocy into focus.

SoCal: "MikeH, you have got to be one of the most ignorant, above everyone else, morons on this planet."......And you still obviously still believe that calling people stupid and ignorant makes them so simply because you said it.....How stupid is THAT!

SoCal: "Unfortunately the doctors can't fix STUPID".....Oh? Are you speaking from personal experience. Have they already tried fixing you?

SoCal: "Yes, by me posting a brief and to the point essay of your friend Olby,"......Apparently, you left out the "essay" part and just posted curses and insults. Must have just been an oversight, eh?

SoCal: "How long did it take you to figure out how to spell IQ"......None, since IQ is an abbrevation and not a word, but since my own has always tested to be within the top 10% of the general population, there really isn't much you could say about it that wouldn't make you look like the idiot.

SoCal: "MikeH, you are one of the biggest jokes on this site"......Glad to help......what are the other ones?

SoCal: "Keep up your hard work defending Olbermann and his falling ratins."......Well, I'd have to start before I could 'keep it up', but his ratings speak for themselves, and are actually pretty good on average....much to your eternal chagrin.

SoCal: "Isn't that what Olbay does every night, scorn, belittle, ridicule, mock,".....But YOU weren't doing any of those things. That would actually take some brains. All YOU were doing was throwing around third grade level insults.

How can any rational human being defend Olbermann? If I EVER see him in a legitimate debate on issues, I'll be getting my ice cubes in Hell.

On Saturday Night Live, On John Stewart, On Jay Leno, and others he has become the laughing stock he was always destined to be. His future is bleak!

Yup definately SoCal's turn.

Where's America47000? I always looked forward to his recaps.

Your ratings report for shows airing Tuesday, Dec. 16:

more bad news for Olby. Another third-place finish in the live hour. Nancy Grace continues to win the 25-54 demo spot, but appears to be subsiding. Speculation was her surge was due to recent breaks in the Caylee Anthony case. My guess is her viewership is not detracting from regular viewers of Fox and MSNBC.

The sheen seems to be off Rachel Maddow. She again falls behind Larry King, and her rerun numbers are terrible.

8PM - P2+ (25-54) (35-64)?The O’Reilly Factor—3,360,000 viewers (674,000) (1,168,000)?Campbell Brown —1,027,000 viewers (276,000) (403,000)?Countdown w/Keith Olbermann —1,512,000 viewers (557,000) (788,000)?Nancy Grace –1,765,000 viewers (682,000) (878,000)

9 PM - P2+ (25-54) (35-64)?Hannity & Colmes—2,369,000 viewers (502,000) (813,000)?Larry King Live—1,525,000 viewers (473,000) (704,000)?Rachel Maddow Show —1,308,000 viewers (437,000) (660,000)?On the Money—244,000 viewers (91,000) (140,000)?Lou Dobbs- 663,000 viewers (245,000) (321,000)

10 PM P2+ (25-54) (35-64)?On the Record w/Greta—1,923,000 viewers (407,000) (682,000)?Anderson Cooper 360—1,368,000 viewers (490,000) (686,000)?Countdown w/Keith Olbermann —863,000 viewers (341,000) (471,000)?American Greed —271,000 viewers (131,000) (172,000)?Nancy Grace –1,007,000 viewers (487,000) (604,000)

11 PM P2+ (25-54) (35-64)?The O’Reilly Factor—1,370,000 viewers (403,000) (716,000)?Anderson Cooper 360—653,000 viewers (299,000) (358,000)?Rachel Maddow Show –559,000 viewers (251,000) (298,000)?Mad Money—174,000 viewers (99,000) (124,000)?Showbiz Tonight– 494,000 viewers (279,000) (279,000)

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/12/17/cable-news-ratings-for-tuesday-december-16/9765

Olby's "journalism" is so unprofessional, especially his WPITW, which are so banal and insignificant nowadays, it's hardly worth the effort it would take to refute them. It's like trying to defend the windmill against Don Quixote.

Today for Worse he picked on the Fox Business Channel for making fun of Jim Kramer (in its "holiday" card, thus backdooring a jab at O'Reilly and the War on Christmas).

For Worser he named a German bureaucrat who suggested putting a bounty on rats so the unemployed can make money.

For Worst he named Gretchen Carlson of Fox and Friends for saying it wasn't for sure that Fitzgerald asked Obama to wait a week to discuss the Blagojevich case, even though both men confirmed it. So instead of assuming she may have been misinformed, Olby said she was lying and making stuff up. He also accused Sean Hannity of "intellectual dishonesty" for not reporting the one-week request. Of course, Olby is *never* guilty of intellectual dishonesty.

Surprisingly, Olbermann hasn't picked on O'Reilly for stating on his radio show Tuesday that it was appropriate for him to say Happy Holidays if he didn't know what the person believed in. I'm surprised Olbermann hasn't (again) called him a hypocrite in his War on Christmas. Perhaps his people haven't had a chance to comb the transcripts. Of course, the War on Christmas refers more to O'Reilly's opposition to secular progressive attitudes and political correctness, but whatever.

Speaking of O'Reilly, Olby should have plenty of chances to move up in the ratings, since O'Reilly is off until Dec. 29. Good Luck, Keith!

Worse blue blog source: Jossip. http://tinyurl.com/49bc7k
Worser blue blog source: The Times of London. http://tinyurl.com/4oj7sd
Worst blue blog source: Media Matters. http://mediamatters.org/items/200812170005
More ripping and reading, followed by ad hominem attacking, from Keith "Rip 'n Read" Olbermann.

I agree America, I thought KO was way out of line tonight on his show. He's going to keep waving that Obama flag until his arms can no longer hold it up.

I wonder if KO is going on vacation too being that it's the end of the year so he can broadcast live from DC when his boy gets sworn in. God, can you imagine all the drivel he'll be spewing along with Matthews the day he gets sworn in? Yikes.

Maddow "boy wonder" seems to be obsessed with incrminating both Bush and Cheney after watching those tapes of Cheney, she's just become possessed with having hims locked up. Look Rach (and I call you that, cause...I can) there isn't anything wrong with torture. How do you think we get information out of prisoners? Make them watch clips of you in a bikini? That would do it for me.

The problem libs have is they include waterboarding among the array of techniques they consider torture.

Our own special forces troops are trained using waterboarding. It's also a hazing ritual in some circles.

There's also the opinion, and this topic was covered on the Factor on Tuesday, that extremists are motivated to torture Americans as payback. As O'Reilly pointed out, extremists are likely to kill Americans for the heck of it, regardless of how we interrogate prisoners. From their point of view, our attempts to spread democracy are torture enough.

Thanks, MikeC, for posting those links. Although I'm not quite sure he used Jossip ...

For example, Olby said Fox News was using "Holiday Cards," even though Jossip specifically refers to them as "Christmas Cards."

Olby of course would rather they be called Holiday Cards, so then he can have fun claiming Fox News is at odds with Bill O'Reilly over the War on Christmas.

But looking at the cards, there's nothing that says Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas. Each card, however, has a prominent Christmas Tree and parodies a famous Christmas poem.

So I think it's fair to say that they are, in fact, *Christmas* cards.

And yet, Olby said they were simply *Holiday* cards, which fed into his egotistical attack on O'Reilly.

But since Jossip, and the cards themselves, clearly are specifically geared toward *Christmas*, I can conclude only that Olby is full of crap, and is *lying* about the cards to serve his own warped purpose (especially ironic considering in the same night he did this he ripped Gretchen Carlson for doing the same thing).

Although Olby is right about one thing. Those poems are pretty awful.

Of course, Olby's main course was a de facto WPITW about a father who named his little boy Adolf Hitler Campbell, and is raising a fuss about a local store that refused to write Happy Birthday Adolf Hitler Campbell on a cake. But Wal-Mart was more than willing to accept the cash and write the message.

I *think* Olbermann and his guest Maddow were using the segment to rip on the dad for being a douche and naming his kid after Hitler, which is pretty bad. But leave it to Olby to also bash Wal-Mart for making a 3-year-old kid a birthday cake, just because it says "Happy Birthday Adolf Hitler"

But seriously. The guy should just call the kid Little Fucker and then try to get that said on TV.

Just in case you gave the guy the benefit of the doubt and assumed he picked his son's name out of a hat, his daughter is named JoyceLynn Aryan Nation Campbell. So this guy has some issues

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,468250,00.html

I think mikeH is infatuated with me the way Olby is with Oreilly.

MikeH, you are obviously dumber than a 5th grader. Getting an IQ report from an online correspondence school is pretty much like using a Ouija Board. How can you constantly defend Olby? That is precisely what you are doing here. You also need to update your info, as Olby's ratings are tanking on a daily basis.
MikeH: Actually no, I didn't "defent" Olbermann - all I did was place your own idiocy into focus.
There's that dog chasing its tail again, round and round we go with mikeH, he just can't see himself backing up Olby here when his own words were "but his ratings speak for themselves, and are actually pretty good on average,"
No, MikeH, it's YOUR IDIOCY that amazes the masses.

I'm surprised he didn't bring up O"Reilly on the Happy Holidays thing, but if he did, it would show how Olby misunderstands the War on Christmas.

But he called him a hypocrit on The Great American Holiday Quiz when it really was a Holiday quiz. It has questions for Christmas, Hanaka, and Kwanza.

The War on Christmas isn't a movement to make everyone say Merry Christmas. But a movement to protect those who do say Merry Christmas. And it is appropriate this time of year when Christians get there 10 lbs bag of hate from atheist groups.

I'm surprised that KO criticizes the Adolf Hitler/cake guy since Hitler is obviously KO's hero judging from the way he has stolen Hitler's propoganda techniques and his notorius Nazi salute.

Now, now SoCal....MikeH, as a church of SNOBamessiah drone, must be given some slack. Recent developments, that are totally the opposite of the hope 'n change MikeH evangelized about right here on OW, must make him testy, so allow him to lash out!

It is amazing that MikeH and the rest of the church hacks are standing by quietly as SNOBamessiah's Secretary of State is divulging that her and Willie's grandiose library was supported by people like BLACKWATER!....Oh MY! Was not this organization the very definition of E-V-I-L as the political grandstanding over Iraq withdrawl was taken up by the anti-America left?....Oh, that's right......that history is not important anymore!

Hope 'n change....I wonder if the church's propagandist will discuss this little development tonight on the revival hour better known as COUNTDOWN?

VERO POSSUMUS!

By SoCalRightist on December 18, 2008 6:24 AM
I think mikeH is infatuated with me the way Olby is with Oreilly

You're one of many on this site SoCal that MikeH has in his cross hairs, and it has ALL to do with his absolute disgust with anybody that displays their loyalty towards their country and disrespect for the anti-American olby. The louder they display their love of America and hatred of his anti-American hero, the quicker you can expect some bumbling rant from him accusing you of being unpatriotic and of him coming to olby's defense.

Hell, he even accused people like my father who actually fought for this country during WWII (unlike him who never saw any action), and who possibly saved thousands of innocent lives, of being unpatriotic for having the nerve to use torture to do it.

SoCal, consider yourself blessed and not lucky whenever MikeH attacks, because to be lucky when he attacks someone would be akin to saying that anyone who is normal is lucky to be that way. I would say to have pity on this man, because somewhere along the line he is the one who has been cursed by some yet unknown force which makes him say the things he does.

Just remember this "classic" quote by him anytime he says the things he does:...And yet despite all evidence to the contrary, you obviously continue to believe that you have an IQ greater than your age.....and that you are somehow better than the object of your scorn...End quote

In other words for anybody to feel that they are *better* than his hero they are crazy. Or, to put it another way, that MikeH actually feels he is lesser that olbermann, and that about says it all.

I'm sorry, I just can't accept Olbermann as The Moral Avenger Against Improper Thought now that it has come to light he cohabitated with with his current love interest when she was but a pubescent minor. At best he is emotionally stunted. At worst, I'll say it: A Pedophile.

Lafinman, it can either be spelled Hanukkah or Chanukah. And the other word is hypocrite. I'm just making friendly corrections; I don't want to appear condescending.
I wouldn't say Keith is anti-American. If anything, he loves the freedom of speech he is allowed in our country, even though we despise what he says as a result of it. He *is*, however, anti-Republican, anti-conservative, anti-Fox, anti-War on Terror, anti-Bush, anti-Palin, anti-everything that doesn't fit his world view. But not anti-American.
MSNBC.com still does not have transcripts of their Tuesday shows or Wednesday shows.

Last night, "Red Eye" also discussed the German rat guy: http://tinyurl.com/4cgec5

Mike C,

I totally disagree with you regarding KO being a champion of free speech. You don't think he'd shut this site down if he could? If he had the power, he'd shut down FOX News Channel IN A SECOND!

Free Speech? That clown wont even allow any opposing views on his Hour of Propaganda.

I'm sorry but I can't respect KO, especially when he just spews out venom and pure hatred for our President and he believes what he thinks is the right way for America and he doesn't event VOTE!

He "claims" he isn't a liberal or a conservate just an American. Well I dont know but he's "something" and it's neither one of those that's for sure.

He isn't a champion of free speech; he abuses it. I wasn't defending him. But fine, he's anti-American, too. Whatever you want.
The transcripts are up, but the geniuses at MSNBC.com have the "1600 Penn. Ave." transcript for the "Countdown" transcript. Go figure.

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood. Drew Carey is being attacked left and right for not being enthusiastic [enough] when a contestant got his Showcase round bid exactly right and won both showcases on Tuesday's "Price is Right." I feel like the only guy on the planet coming to his defense, as I did on my blog yesterday: http://mikechimeriblog.com/2008/12/17/defending-drew-carey/
I'm going far off topic here, but it's weighing heavily on my mind.

Going off Topic here.
I want to take the time here to say Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to all my friends here on this site. I know it's been a tough year, but we'll make some how.
I just want to stress how important it is that we all take a little extra time in our driving habits and not become a statistic over the Holiday weeks ahead.
I look forward to blogging with you all in the coming year.
Thank you everyone for your patriotism and supporting our troops.
Jim (SoCal)

Going off Topic here.
I want to take the time here to say Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to all my friends here on this site. I know it's been a tough year, but we'll make it some how.
I just want to stress how important it is that we all take a little extra time in our driving habits and not become a statistic over the Holiday weeks ahead.
I look forward to blogging with you all in the coming year.
Thank you everyone for your patriotism and supporting our troops.
Jim (SoCal)

Going off Topic here.
I want to take the time here to say Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to all my friends here on this site. I know it's been a tough year, but we'll make it some how.
I just want to stress how important it is that we all take a little extra time in our driving habits and not become a statistic over the Holiday weeks ahead.
I look forward to blogging with you all in the coming year.
Thank you everyone for your patriotism and supporting our troops.
Jim (SoCal)

Wolverine: "Hell, he even accused people like my father who actually fought for his country during WWII (unlike him who never saw any action), and possibly saved thousands of innocent lives, for having the nerve to use torture to do it."

1) - I never "accused" your father of anything.

2) - I too have a father who fought for his country in WWII. He ALSO fought for his country in Korea. The then he did it again in Vietnam (twice).

3) - I'm pretty certain that my father didn't torture anyone in the process of saving "thousands of lives".

4) - If someone has the "nerve" to torture someone, then they also have the "nerve" to violate our Constitution, and the Geneva Convention.....but most importantly, they violate one of the most cherished principles upon what this country stands for in the process.

5) - The fact that I never saw any action is immaterial. I served during a war....and I served where they told me to serve.

As for your rallying to the aid of SoCal, how admirable of you Wolverine. Stand up for your ideological buddies, even when they are wrong. However, I have to admit that you are more of a challenge than SoCal, who never even attempts to back up anything he says, and has flubbed badly the few times that he did.....SO, he just says them and adds as many insults as he can in the process......That said, in YOUR case, you still seem to be missing the very important difference between Patriotism and Nationalism. The angry and confrontational ideas you keep advancing on this blog can rightfully be defined as classic Nationalism, but NOT necessarily as patriotism!

I don't see anybody standing up to and defending YOUR moronic ideologies MIKEH. Seems to me and everybody else here, that you are in your own league all by yourself. I can defend myself just fine, but answering to you is like talking to a watermelon. I backup everything I say jerkoff. You sir are the one that has flubbed over and over here at this site, so blow it out your ass. And yes, I take great pride in throwing insults toward YOU whenever possible due to the fact that you are an insult to general and common sense. MikeH, you know nothing about patriotism and if you did, you would understand that WE here are trying to defend this country unlike you and your Olbermann whom want to tear it down. The other people here that step in from time to time to standup and take sides with me are only taking the side that I take and letting YOU know how wrong YOU are and are trying to point out to you that you need to see the light and stop being the idiot that you are and realize how far left you are in your ideologies.
As for challenges, MikeH, you're not even close, patrick was much tougher than you are.
Personally speaking, MikeH, I don't think you served one day of your life doing anything for this country whether it was here or abroad. If you did, you would'nt be speaking the way you are. You come across as a lifetime walmart greeter that's never been out of the store. Your nitpicking of nationalism verses patriotism is very questionable.

SoCal: "I don't see anybody standing up to and defending YOUR moronic ideologies MIKEH".......Duh....Thats because this is a web site dedicated to trashing a left wing news commentator. Any more BRILLIANT observations?

SoCal: "Seems to me that you are in a league all by yourself."......Thank you!

SoCal: "I can defend myself just fine".....Then why don't you?

SoCal: "Talking to you is like talking to a watermelon.".......How often do you talk to watermelons?

SoCal: "I backup everything I say jerkoff".......You "back up" your arguments by calling people things like "jerkoff". It's as if you REALLY think calling people names is an argument!

SoCal: "You are the one who has flubbed over and over here at this site, so b;low it out your ass.".......And I'm supposed to accept YOUR pathetic judgement as to whether or not I have "flubbed"?

SoCal: "And yes, I take great pride in throwing insults toward YOU whenever possible due to the fact that you are an in insult to general and common sense.".......But I've already pointed out that like most ignorant people, you try compensate for your ignorance by hurling insults instead of superior arguments.

SoCal: "MikeH, you know nothing about patriotism"......If coming from a proud military family and serving myself during wartime makes me ignorant about the meaning of patriotism in your eyes, then I don't think I'll feel too bad about what YOU think.

Socal: "And if you did, you would understand that WE here are trying to defend this country".....Oh really? Who is "WE"? And what exactly are YOU doing to "defend this country"?

SoCal: "unlike you and your Olbermann whom want to tear it down."......Actually, "WE" are trying to build it back up by defending it from another 8 years moronic policy making by the clueless.

SoCal: "The other people here that step in from time to time to standup and take sides with me are only taking the side that I take and letting YOU know how wrong you are and trying to point out that you need to see the light and stop being the idiot that you are and realize how far left you are in your ideologies"......Imagine that....but all they really succeed in doing is to further cement the correctness of my own views by continuing to parrot hateful talking points and cliches that I have heard at least a thousand times before.

SoCal: "As for challenges, MikeH, you're not even close. patrick was much tougher than you are."......Good for Patrick!.....But it's pretty safe to say that we're BOTH a hell of a lot tougher than YOU are!

SoCal: "Personally speaking, MikeH. I don't think you served one day of your life doing anything for this country whether it was here or abroad. If you did, you would'nt be speaking the way you are.".......Alright!......Here we go again with the 'you must be lying because if you had REALLY served, you wouldn't feel the way you feel" argument. What a joke! The problem with THAT argument is that it doesn't amount to a hill of beans whether YOU think I'm lying about my service to my country or not. What matters is that I AM a veteran, and I DO view things the way I do.

SOCal: "You come across as a lifetime walmart greeter that's never been out of the store."......Thats rather funny because there's no such thing a a "lifetime walmart greeter", and I am actually a self employed samll businessman who doesn't have to depend on anyone but myself to provide an income. You should try THAT sometime.....it has a way of changing your views about a lot of things.

SoCal: "Your nitpicking about nationalism versus patriotism is very questionable"

Well, well, lets use an extreme example here to illustrate the point:

You know that German Officer who tried to blow up Hitler? Hitler and his country obviously viewed him as a traitor. But in reality, he was the ultimate patriot. He knew that continuing to follow Hitler would lead his COUNTRY to ruin. Unfrotunately he failed, he was executed, and Germany WAS led to ruin.

By contrast Heidrick was the ultimate Nationalist. He did what he was told to do and justified doing it because he was following orders in the name of his country....and he helped lead his country to ruin.

Who was the patriot......and who was the nationalist?

Now if you make the mistake of thinking that I am calling anybody on this blog a Nazi with this post, which I am emphatically NOT doing....then it will be just another example of not grasping the relevance of making a point by using an extreme example.

MikeH, I am in business for myself and have been for 35 years as a Master Contractor. I pay my taxes, keep good bookkeeping, and only hire the best for what we do. So don't tell me how your special, your no different than anyone else. I too am a Vet and it's obvious that your viewpoints are different than most. You are definately not tougher mikeH, as we conquered and were able to get rid of one of the bad apples here.
You sir are the watermelon, nothing but rotten seeds being spit out.
You have read me wrong here, I too want to see that Obama succeed for OUR country but by the right way. My personal convictions of Obama tell me that something still smells, but again, those are my own beliefs and I am entitled to them just as you and Olby are about yours.

MikeH, I am in business for myself and have been for 35 years as a Master Contractor. I pay my taxes, keep good bookkeeping, and only hire the best for what we do. So don't tell me how your special, your no different than anyone else. I too am a Vet and it's obvious that your viewpoints are different than most. You are definately not tougher mikeH, as we conquered and were able to get rid of one of the bad apples here.
You sir are the watermelon, nothing but rotten seeds being spit out.
You have read me wrong here, I too want to see that Obama succeed for OUR country but by the right way. My personal convictions of Obama tell me that something still smells, but again, those are my own beliefs and I am entitled to them just as you and Olby are about yours.

MikeH...) - I never "accused" your father of anything.

2) - I too have a father who fought for his country in WWII. He ALSO fought for his country in Korea. The then he did it again in Vietnam (twice).

3) - I'm pretty certain that my father didn't torture anyone in the process of saving "thousands of lives".

4) - If someone has the "nerve" to torture someone, then they also have the "nerve" to violate our Constitution, and the Geneva Convention.....but most importantly, they violate one of the most cherished principles upon what this country stands for in the process.

The fact that your father served in all these wars and the opportunity (thank God) never presented itself where he would have had the decision of whether or not to use torture to save lives is the point.

I'll ask you again, but in this scenario, if it HAD happened where your father was presented with this horrible choice, would you still have felt him more of a patriot for seeing thousands die because he didn't want to go against the Convention. Or, better yet, ask HIM what he thinks he would have done, and I can gurantee you that he'd do the same.

That is the whole point about your point about torture, as it has nothing to do with whether or not to follow the Geneva Convention, as it MUST and SHOULD be broken IF American lives can be saved. Everytime...

SOCal: "as we conquered and were able to get rid of one of the bad apples here."

I'm trying to figure out what you mean't by that statement?

- Who was the "bad apple"?

- Why were they a "bad apple"?

- How did you get rid of them?

- Does the term "bad apple" refer to anyone that doesn't agree with you?

- Are you offended that someone who doesn't agree with you would dare to post on OW?

Enquiring minds want to know!

No, only YOUR mind wants to know, so don't include anyone else to your side mikeH

Wolverine, at least we know that we have to agree to disagree regarding the use of torture.

I for one believe that always adherring to a higher principle will always lead to the best ultimate outcome in the long run.....EVEN......if it occasionally fails to do that in the short run. I believe if America is known as a country that doesn't torture, America will be far better off and more secure in the long run.

I run a business that way. I believe in being fair and honest to every customer.....EVEN......when it means that I lose money on occasion in the process. However, I also believe that I will ultimately benefit from operating that way in the long run.

The thing about the torture argument is the way it has helped turn the traditional conservative argument on their head. These arguments always went something like these: (1) - Always act on principle. (2) - Never act on emotion. (3) - Liberals act on emotion, but conservatives never do. (4) - Liberal act on 'moral relativism', but conservatives act on bedrock principle.

Ironically, I see more of those principles in play on the liberal side of the argument than I do on the conservative side these days.